htownbrown Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 ...still a ways to go. Baker ranked ahead of Ben makes me chuckle though. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-from-best-to-worst/1e800cpni4cjf15fseqi4yrz1k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choco Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 Ben threw for over 5000 yards, sure...but he also had far more attempts than anyone else. His efficiency numbers are average, and I don't think 13 games is enough to draw definitive conclusions. It's positive it's even a discussion tho, as baker looks the part early...which is the salient point. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 Here is the complete ranking...what would you change: 1. Mahomes KC 2. Rodgers GB 3. Brady NE 4. Brees N.O. 5. Wilson SEA 6. Luck Indy 7. Rivers LAC 8. Ryan ATL 9. Mayfield CLE 10. Ben R. Pitt. 11. Wentz Phil 12. Goff LAR 13. Watson HOU 14. Prescott Dall. 15. Trubisky Chic. 16. Garrapolo SFO 17. Stafford DET 18. Cousins Minn 19. Newton CAR 20. Winston TB 21. Mariota TN 22. Darnold NYJ 23. Jackson Balt. 24. Foles Jax. 25. Allen Buff. 26. Dalton Cincy 27. Fitzpatrick Miami 28. Carr OAK 29. Eli NYG 30. Flacco Den. 31. Murray AZ 32. Haskins Wash. Others: A. Will Case Keenum actually be the starter in Wash? B Will Drew Lock replace Flacco in Denver? D. Will Rosen be the starter in Miami? E. Will/when will Jone replace Eli with NYG Also...the two rookies expected to start were automatically give the lowest 2 spots...meaning that this article views Flacco as the weakest among veteran starters. So...where to they have it wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htownbrown Posted May 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 Honestly, after 13 games, I can't put Baker ahead of Ben, Wentz, or Goff. After this season, if things progress as they should, it wouldn't be that far of a stretch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comeonman Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 19 minutes ago, htownbrown said: Honestly, after 13 games, I can't put Baker ahead of Ben, Wentz, or Goff. After this season, if things progress as they should, it wouldn't be that far of a stretch. The article seemed like it is forecast of who will have the best seasons this year. If it weren’t, I would completely agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 I would certainly not put Ryan ahead of BR. And Wentz is way to high based on his abilities, including availability I would put Newton at about 10, not 19 and certainly above the likes of Goff, Wentz, Stafford, Garropolo, Prescott, Trubisky. And Foles at 24? Huh. no. About 12-14 at minimum....certainly over guys who have done nothing like Winston/Mariota, Darnold, Cousins, Prescott. etc. While Eli has fallen, I would still put him at about 20...over some of the never haves. And I certainly am not ready to put Mahomes at #1 over Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Wilson and maybe a few others. Maybe in a couple of years. (but I am hoping that it is Baker, not he that proves to be the better QB) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickers Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 20 hours ago, htownbrown said: ...still a ways to go. Baker ranked ahead of Ben makes me chuckle though. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-from-best-to-worst/1e800cpni4cjf15fseqi4yrz1k Hell I would rank baker ahead of Ryan.. I think Matty Ice blows..... He's had Julio Jones and Roddy White in the past... And still can't win a sausage!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comeonman Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 2 hours ago, The Gipper said: I would certainly not put Ryan ahead of BR. And Wentz is way to high based on his abilities, including availability I would put Newton at about 10, not 19 and certainly above the likes of Goff, Wentz, Stafford, Garropolo, Prescott, Trubisky. And Foles at 24? Huh. no. About 12-14 at minimum....certainly over guys who have done nothing like Winston/Mariota, Darnold, Cousins, Prescott. etc. While Eli has fallen, I would still put him at about 20...over some of the never haves. And I certainly am not ready to put Mahomes at #1 over Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Wilson and maybe a few others. Maybe in a couple of years. (but I am hoping that it is Baker, not he that proves to be the better QB) Again, I think this article ranks QBs on what kind of season they think they will have. Mahomes would definitely be number one if I was betting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Comeonman said: Again, I think this article ranks QBs on what kind of season they think they will have. Mahomes would definitely be number one if I was betting. Yes, but it is hard to not take into account the past when judging the present, or the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comeonman Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 59 minutes ago, The Gipper said: Yes, but it is hard to not take into account the past when judging the present, or the future. It can be, but I think they’re pretty close on this one. The top ten they have I think will be really close Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 Browns...with a top 10 rated QB? 😎 #6 is a competitor, and a leader too. With arm talent to go along. He deserves the rank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 3 hours ago, The Gipper said: Yes, but it is hard to not take into account the past when judging the present, or the future. That's Steeler think Gipper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htownbrown Posted May 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 Truth be told, as a witness to the past 20 years, I'm thrilled to see a debate about whether or not the browns have a top 10 QB. Not gonna lie. The problem isn't necessarily about Baker's ability or potential. You have to look at the history of the system each QB is in. I'm a Freddie Kitchens fan, but that's quite a leap of faith. He'd be the first person to say that. There is an argument to be made that Baker may be a better QB than Ryan, Wentz, or Goff by years end, but Ben is a much harder sale for me. I hate the rapist more than anyone, don't get me wrong. But to put it in boxing terms, Ben will take you into deep waters and drown you. Baker just isn't a great finisher yet, but I expect to see a bit more of that from him this season. Here's their methodology: These rankings are based on how each QB performed last season and the upside of how each might perform in 2019. No matter how many Super Bowl rings or MVP awards a QB has won, or the number of efficient passing seasons he has posted in the past, history is a small part of the equation. We thought about where each QB ended up last season in terms of effectiveness, production and durability, and then we thought even more about how his talent and offensive support set him up for success (or lack thereof) this season. I think we can check the effectiveness, production, and durability boxes for both Baker and Ben. The problem here is they are ignoring the system these guys are in and focusing on talent influx exclusively. Under their parameters the rankings make more sense, but I'm not sure it's an entirely fair assessment. I hope Baker winds up the best QB in the league by seasons end, but I think this run game under Freddie will be dominant over the second half of the season. I see Chubb and Hunt digging into Baker's "production" quite a bit. We shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 On 5/21/2019 at 8:04 PM, htownbrown said: ...still a ways to go. Baker ranked ahead of Ben makes me chuckle though. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-from-best-to-worst/1e800cpni4cjf15fseqi4yrz1k So would you make the trade straight up? WSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htownbrown Posted May 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Westside Steve said: So would you make the trade straight up? WSS Hell no 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 9 hours ago, hoorta said: That's Steeler think Gipper. Well....I think I am being a bit more specific than that. Example: Tom Brady DID win the Super Bowl this past year. Drew Brees should have been in the Super Bowl. As much as I wish BR were to lose it, he did throw for 5K yards last year. So, even though these are historical matters, its not like I have to go back very far to see how well these guys can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choco Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 Again, 5000 yards means fukall. Ben also led the league in interceptions. Bulk yardage stats are misleading. And what does the system have to do with these ratings? No correlation that I see.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, choco said: Again, 5000 yards means fukall. Ben also led the league in interceptions. Bulk yardage stats are misleading. And what does the system have to do with these ratings? No correlation that I see.... Hmm....that was the same argument that Vagitroll made about Landry...that he was just a "volume" pass catcher, and naturally, his conclusion was that Landry was not very good....and that you can get 20 Landrys in any given draft. Of course that is a horeshit argument, and I also believe that it is somewhat horseshit when it comes to BR. And I don't know about these particular ratings....but I do know that a particular system can help a QB with certain kinds of number. Take the QB passer rating system. For a long while the guys that were the career leaders in that statistic were all seemingly "West Coast" QBs. Sure, you had Joe Montana and Steve Young up there....but you also had the likes of Jeff Garcia and Trent Green among the career leaders. That has dissapated somewhat.....but the fact is, of the Top 40 QBs in history.....one single QB played his career at any point prior to 1979....which was just after the big rule change regarding contact with receivers. (fyi...that one had the intitials of O.G). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kvoethe Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 Im expecting a sophomore slump this year...as it happens to most if not all Q Bs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 38 minutes ago, Kvoethe said: Im expecting a sophomore slump this year...as it happens to most if not all Q Bs Or could go the way of Jared Goff who got better his 2nd year with a new coach. Good thing for Baker is he got the 2nd half of last season to work with his new coach. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 5 hours ago, Mark O said: Or could go the way of Jared Goff who got better his 2nd year with a new coach. Good thing for Baker is he got the 2nd half of last season to work with his new coach. Or...Bernie Kosar, who led the Browns to the best record in the AFC in his second year and into the AFC title game and one prevent defense that allowed a 98 yard drive short of going to the Super Bowl.!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choco Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 21 hours ago, The Gipper said: Hmm....that was the same argument that Vagitroll made about Landry... Mahomes had 4955 yds on 583 attempts, 385 completions, 66.0% Ben had 5008 yds on 689 attempts, 459 completions, 66.6% "Threw for 5000 yards" has no context is really all i mean...this is the difference in efficiency, and i consider this much more important when trying to compare players. Mahomes had very similar production on 74 less completions. Thats only the first layer of the onion. Vag doesn't know how to lay out a coherent argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comeonman Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 On 5/23/2019 at 1:00 PM, The Gipper said: Hmm....that was the same argument that Vagitroll made about Landry...that he was just a "volume" pass catcher, and naturally, his conclusion was that Landry was not very good....and that you can get 20 Landrys in any given draft. Of course that is a horeshit argument, and I also believe that it is somewhat horseshit when it comes to BR. And I don't know about these particular ratings....but I do know that a particular system can help a QB with certain kinds of number. Take the QB passer rating system. For a long while the guys that were the career leaders in that statistic were all seemingly "West Coast" QBs. Sure, you had Joe Montana and Steve Young up there....but you also had the likes of Jeff Garcia and Trent Green among the career leaders. That has dissapated somewhat.....but the fact is, of the Top 40 QBs in history.....one single QB played his career at any point prior to 1979....which was just after the big rule change regarding contact with receivers. (fyi...that one had the intitials of O.G). So Greg Little could have been a “volume” guy. If he could have caught the ball. Running routes crisply and having great hands. Yep..... “dime a dozen” as one would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 On 5/21/2019 at 7:04 PM, htownbrown said: https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-from-best-to-worst/1e800cpni4cjf15fseqi4yrz1k I focus on the "tiers", the groupings not the 1-40 order. Only Tier1 I'd argue against is Mahommes due to it being one year and the fall off in the playoffs. With the loss of weapons in KC it's hard for me to see him repeating. Tier 2??? Wentz... still waiting for him to make it thru a season and into the playoffs. Tier 3? Weirdly small and a weird mix, e.g., Trubs in same group as Watson and Prescott??? Tiers 4 thru whatever... laughable mish mash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunz41 Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 On 5/22/2019 at 2:30 PM, The Gipper said: I would certainly not put Ryan ahead of BR. And Wentz is way to high based on his abilities, including availability I would put Newton at about 10, not 19 and certainly above the likes of Goff, Wentz, Stafford, Garropolo, Prescott, Trubisky. And Foles at 24? Huh. no. About 12-14 at minimum....certainly over guys who have done nothing like Winston/Mariota, Darnold, Cousins, Prescott. etc. While Eli has fallen, I would still put him at about 20...over some of the never haves. And I certainly am not ready to put Mahomes at #1 over Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Wilson and maybe a few others. Maybe in a couple of years. (but I am hoping that it is Baker, not he that proves to be the better QB) Where would you have Baker? You didn't mention him in that. Not that it will happen, nor that it looks like that, but we have seen QBs do really good things in 1st year and then fall off. Nothing I have seen would tell me that, but there is history. Even though he is a different QB than some of them. Certainly not just you Gip, wherever you have him ranked, but people want to point out flaws for others and not use them for their guy. Again that doesn't mean you, and not just about Baker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Gunz41 said: Where would you have Baker? You didn't mention him in that. I didn't bother, didn't realize I was obligated to. My honest answer is: I don't know. Not that it will happen, nor that it looks like that, but we have seen QBs do really good things in 1st year and then fall off. Nothing I have seen would tell me that, but there is history. Even though he is a different QB than some of them. There is history for the opposite as well. See above my post about BK....led the team to the best record in the AFC...and to the AFC title game (and almost Super Bowl)...in his second year. Certainly not just you Gip, wherever you have him ranked, but people want to point out flaws for others and not use them for their guy. Again that doesn't mean you, and not just about Baker. You go ahead an point out what you think would be Baker's flaws, and I will determine if I agree with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunz41 Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 1 hour ago, The Gipper said: Well one, I never said anything about his flaws, but if you think he is perfect then go ahead. I don't care if you agree with them, I certainly know my knowledge, and it's also not a peeing contest. And if you think that asking where you would rank him was somehow wrong, then I can't help you. Nobody said you were obligated to. But it is funny you don't know where you would rank him, yet have no issue with ranking others. And of course there are cases both ways, nobody ever said different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Gunz41 said: Well one, I never said anything about his flaws, but if you think he is perfect then go ahead. I don't care if you agree with them, I certainly know my knowledge, and it's also not a peeing contest. And if you think that asking where you would rank him was somehow wrong, then I can't help you. Nobody said you were obligated to. But it is funny you don't know where you would rank him, yet have no issue with ranking others. And of course there are cases both ways, nobody ever said different. My answer would also have to be- "we don't know". He repeats what he did in his rookie year- he's top 10. Has the sophomore slump- and its Blake Bortles territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunz41 Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 11 hours ago, hoorta said: My answer would also have to be- "we don't know". He repeats what he did in his rookie year- he's top 10. Has the sophomore slump- and its Blake Bortles territory. I get that, I'm not saying anyone has to have a spot for him. I don't know where I would put him. That was just a question, no right or wrong answer. It was really just about saying so and so hasn't done anything, so they would be lower than so and so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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