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Any Holes left to Fill?


The Gipper

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Here I have pasted Zombo's  depth chart made after the draft.   Tell us where there may still be work to do here in terms of adding and upgrading:

Here is the roster today, new guys in green:

 

QB B.Mayfield, D.Stanton, G. Gilbert

FB/H-B O. Charles

RB  N. Chubb, D. Johnson,  D.Hilliard (Hunt Susp.)

WR1  O. Beckham, A. Callaway, D. Willies,  B. Jackson

WR2 J. Landry, R. Higgins, D .Ratley, J.Strong

TE D. Njoku, D. Harris, S. Devalve, P. Brown

LT G. Robinson, D. Harrison

LG J. Bitonio D. Forbes

C J.Tretter K. Kalis

RG  A.Corbett, E. Kush B. Witzmann

RT C. Hubbard, K. Lamm B. Seaton

 

DE M. Garrett, C. Smith, C. Thomas

DT  Ogunjobi, C. Davis, D. Lawrence

DT  S. Richardson,T Coley, B. Price

DE O. VernonZettle,

MLB Schoebert, M. Wilson R. Armstrong

OLB G. Avery, A. Taylor, Hines

OLB C. Kirksey, S. Takitaki

CB D. Ward , T. Carrie, T. Thomas, J.Burris

CB  T. Mitchell, G. Williams, D. Lewis P. Gaines

FS D. Randall, S. Redwine, J Whitehead

SS  M. Burnett, E. Murray 

 

K A. Seibert, G. Joseph

P Colquitt

LS Hughlett

KR (Hilliard)

PR (Callaway)

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OL

If Corbett could have been flipped for any of those available at the top of the 2nd this year, he should have been.  And perhaps the Hubbard experiment won't be as kind the second year through.  Yes, we have decent passpro at the backup spots - but My .02 says that we'll have problems in the run game this season thanks to the right side of the line getting caved in.  And our TE's are never going to be mistaken for Gronk's dominance in the run game.

Last year's OL run block was near the worst in several metrics - and we made that line substantially worse this season by removing Zeitler.  We had a epic season from Chubb - and I'd bet on a more reversion-to-the-league-avg season from him this time.

From the link, we were:

18th in average yards directly attributable to the OL

4th from the worst [29th] in % of total rushes stuffed at or behind LOS

Dead last in % of runs converted on 3/4th down with <= 2 yards to go.

 

In short, just like the Lions with Barry Sanders, we depended all year on Chubb making something out of nothing -- and last season he was actually able to do it.  All the yards were thanks to Chubb doing things on his own.  I hope he'll be able to repeat, but it's a substantially tougher task given that we're replacing Zeitler with Corbett.  As well, note that Kitchens' scheme did not change this.

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As unsympathetic explained, our OL could be scary.  Last season it was scary at tackle.  This year we'll add RG to that.   

We'll find out if some of the hole patch used (draft picks) actually DO fill the holes....or if they'll wash away once the rain comes.

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On 4/29/2019 at 3:47 PM, Unsympathetic said:

OL

If Corbett could have been flipped for any of those available at the top of the 2nd this year, he should have been.  And perhaps the Hubbard experiment won't be as kind the second year through.  Yes, we have decent passpro at the backup spots - but My .02 says that we'll have problems in the run game this season thanks to the right side of the line getting caved in.  And our TE's are never going to be mistaken for Gronk's dominance in the run game.

Last year's OL run block was near the worst in several metrics - and we made that line substantially worse this season by removing Zeitler.  We had a epic season from Chubb - and I'd bet on a more reversion-to-the-league-avg season from him this time.

From the link, we were:

18th in average yards directly attributable to the OL

4th from the worst [29th] in % of total rushes stuffed at or behind LOS

Dead last in % of runs converted on 3/4th down with <= 2 yards to go.

 

In short, just like the Lions with Barry Sanders, we depended all year on Chubb making something out of nothing -- and last season he was actually able to do it.  All the yards were thanks to Chubb doing things on his own.  I hope he'll be able to repeat, but it's a substantially tougher task given that we're replacing Zeitler with Corbett.  As well, note that Kitchens' scheme did not change this.

Really well put together post. We seemed to hear a lot about Chubb’s “yards after contact” last year like it was a feather in the cap, but of course it’s ideal to have that contact happen a little further out than where it tended to be last year. Real good thinking material. 

I did like the core of our Oline play last year. Big Bitonio fan. Really liked Zeitler, and really like Tretter, but he seems to eternally play with an ankle sprain. 

I feel like l’ve read the phrase “the Hubbard experiment” enough that it irks me. I think he went through his adjustment period early in the season like many a guy would on a new team, but panned out well enough imo that we can remove the “experiment” from his name. 

Still, room for improvement. l kinda feel like we’ve laid the groundwork for said improvement though. I’m not counting out Corbett yet, but l still think he needs to get rid of that baby face a grow some scruff. We also signed a few solid vets in the offseason and Forbes could develop into something special. I dunno. I think the groundwork was laid to improve the Oline in an organic fashion, but only time will tell. 

 

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On 4/29/2019 at 3:47 PM, Unsympathetic said:

OL

If Corbett could have been flipped for any of those available at the top of the 2nd this year, he should have been.  And perhaps the Hubbard experiment won't be as kind the second year through.  Yes, we have decent passpro at the backup spots - but My .02 says that we'll have problems in the run game this season thanks to the right side of the line getting caved in.  And our TE's are never going to be mistaken for Gronk's dominance in the run game.Last year's OL run block was near the worst in several metrics - and we made that line substantially worse this season by removing Zeitler.  We had a epic season from Chubb - and I'd bet on a more reversion-to-the-league-avg season from him this time.From the link, we were:

18th in average yards directly attributable to the OL4th from the worst [29th] in % of total rushes stuffed at or behind LOS

Dead last in % of runs converted on 3/4th down with <= 2 yards to go.

In short, just like the Lions with Barry Sanders, we depended all year on Chubb making something out of nothing -- and last season he was actually able to do it.  All the yards were thanks to Chubb doing things on his own.  I hope he'll be able to repeat, but it's a substantially tougher task given that we're replacing Zeitler with Corbett.  As well, note that Kitchens' scheme did not change this.

   Fair enough - except you have to consider the yearly stats vs when Baker Mayfield too the helm, when Chubb got to start, and when Kitchens became head coach.

   As usual, there are two sides to this story - https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/Board/105323/Contents/Browns-offensive-line-stats-sacks-and-ratings-126926131/

   According to the info in the link:

Dec 28, 2018 

Currently the #2 overall rated OL by pro football focus.
.
•The Browns oldest offensive lineman is Kevin Zeitler at 28 years old. Bitonio=27, Robinson=26, Harrison=25, Tretter=27, Hubbard=27.
.
The Browns offensive line allowed 61 total QB hits through the first 8 weeks of the season.
.************************************************************
•Since week 9, they have allowed a league low 7 total QB hits.

.**************************************************************************************
•Only 5 NFL offensive lineman throughout the NFL have allowed 2 or fewer pressures in all 15 games this season. 3 of those players are on the Cleveland Browns. Bitonio, Tretter, and Zeitler!
.

         So, from my perspective - our offensive line is going to be just fine.

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took me a bit to find this:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/11/14/18094128/rookie-running-backs-ranking-saquon-barkley-nick-chubb

1. Saquon Barkley, Giants

Pick: First round, second pick; second overall

Stats: 131 rushes, 586 yards, 4.5 YPC, five touchdowns; 62 receptions, 530 yards, two touchdowns

2. Nick Chubb, Browns

Pick: Second round, third pick; 35th overall

Stats: 94 rushes, 579 yards, 6.2 YPC, five touchdowns; six receptions, 48 yards, one touchdown

*********************************************************************

   and THAT is with OBJ with the Giants. Wait til you get a load of Jarvis Landry and OBJ, and co. You can't run if you can't

throw. Kitchens and Baker and the boys opened that up, but not til later on in the season. Nick had as many TD's as Barkley, and

comparing Chubb's late start 94 rushes to Barkley's 131 rushes, Barkley only ran for 7 more yards.

    No worries from me about the offensive line. If it's a problem, I'll be shocked.

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Am signed up for the questionable OL rebuild till the Pad's start Poppin..But The Dorse, did sign 2 guys that started to get to there higher upsides..Eric Kush gave up zero sacks & only 3 hurries on 218 passpro snaps last season. Houston had a 60 plus sack OL, but Kendall Lamm was reported to be Houston's best in passpro..Landry won't let Lamm puss-out on run blocking..Corbett might want to grow out of that baby face.. 

  Tank Top Friday's..comes to The Land..relax, till the pads come on         

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One date to keep in mind is Next Wednesday, 5/8. After Tuesday, none of the free agent signings go against compensatory picks. Thus, if the browns wanted to sign Suh for $18 mil for 1 year, it would not count against their compensatory chances. I think Dorsey is going to make a move with someone then to help finish off the Roster and the league overall is going to see a flurry of signings. 

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Still available:

PLAYER (300 OF 321)
POS.
AGE
FROM
TO
YRS
DOLLARS
AAV
TOTAL GTD
GTD AT SIGN
2019 CAP
POTENTIAL OUT
Ezekiel Ansah DE 30 DET TBD Market Value
Ndamukong Suh DT 32 LAR TBD Market Value
Eric Berry SS 30 KC TBD -
Jamie Collins OLB 29 CLE TBD -
Nick Perry OLB 29 GB TBD -
Corey Liuget DT 29 LAC TBD -
Josh McCown QB 40 NYJ TBD -
T.J. Lang G 31 DET TBD -
Pierre Garcon WR 33 SF TBD -
Donald Penn RT 36 OAK TBD -
Rob Gronkowski TE 30 NE TBD -
Ryan Kalil C 34 CAR TBD -
Andre Branch DE 30 MIA TBD -
Zach Brown ILB 29 WAS TBD -
Andy Levitre G 33 ATL TBD -
Max Unger C 33 NO TBD -
Jordy Nelson WR 34 OAK TBD -
Brent Grimes CB 36 TB TBD -
Jermaine Gresham TE 31 ARI

TBD

 

Morris Claiborne CB 29 NYJ TBD -
Jared Veldheer RT 32 DEN TBD -
Darian Stewart FS 31 DEN TBD -
Michael Crabtree WR 31 BAL TBD -
Derrick Morgan OLB 33 TEN TBD -
Josh Sitton G 33 MIA TBD -
Glover Quin FS 33 DET TBD -
Jermey Parnell RT 33 JAC TBD -
Ryan Schraeder RT 31 ATL TBD -
Allen Bailey DT 30 KC TBD -
John Cyprien SS 29 TEN TBD -
Dion Sims TE 28 CHI TBD -
Mike Remmers RT 30 MIN TBD -
Kyle Williams DT 36 BUF TBD -
Rashaan Melvin CB 29 OAK TBD -
Kurt Coleman FS 31 NO TBD -
John Sullivan C 34 LAR TBD -
Stacy McGee DT 29 WAS TBD -
Muhammad Wilkerson DT 30 GB TBD -
Andre Hal FS 27 HOU TBD -
Michael Johnson DE 32 CIN TBD -
Jermaine Kearse WR 29 NYJ TBD
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After this season, Damarius Randall is off his rookie contract - and because he was a first-round who's done pretty well, he'll expect to get paid.  So we'll probably be drafting another safety early next draft as well, because it appears safety may not be an area they've earmarked for $$.

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On 4/29/2019 at 2:47 PM, Unsympathetic said:

In short, just like the Lions with Barry Sanders, we depended all year on Chubb making something out of nothing

Disagree with your conclusion...

Barry made a lot of yards juking defenders in the hole, reversing his field, etc., i.e., true individual effort, truly making something of nothing.

We did not see a lot of that from Chubb.

Rather with Chubb we saw the OL popping him to the and third level of off-balance defenses early and often with stuffs and bottled up runs in between. Most often when everyone knew we were running, we did not run successfully, but I am hard-pressed to think of a team that did.

The one stat in the article you did not list was "Open Field Yards"

Quote

Open Field Yards

From FBO: “gives the portion of the team’s rushing average gained after the first 10 yards of each run. So for a 10-yard run, no yards are counted; for a 15-yard run, five yards are counted; for an 80-yard run, 70 yards are counted. This number gives you an idea of how much of a team’s running game was based on the breakaway speed of the running backs.”

Browns Rank: 4th

This kind of "Home run" , boom-or -bust performance is IMO indicative of an underdeveloped run game in total more than a dependency upon a something from nothing RB.

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Meanwhile back at the thread....

As for "holes"... obviously based upon the flood of threads on how great each of our 2019 picks are... we can't have any. ;) And in a sense we do not.

Our roster has progressed to the stage where we have positions where we can still "improve", but the current player looks to be adequate.... something that was far from true 3 years ago.

That said... I still have concerns about our D. Whenever a new Coord/a new system is introduced, the so too is uncertainty introduced. The biggest mitigating factor I see is the talent level of veteran leadership in the various "rooms".

The DL Room: Clearly our strongest room only got stronger thru FA. We expect this group to flourish.

The DB Room: Less veteran in total, especially should Greedy claim LCB as his own, but we are vet where it counts most, up the middle... and our vet Safeties are better than average.

Anyone notice that I skipped a room?

The LB Room: Not especially "vet"... not especially talented going into FA, we came out of FA less so on both counts and did not upgrade the room significantly in the Draft. Certainly there is a scenario thru which we emerge just fine... namely:

  • Kirk returns to his 2017 form producing a performance the equal of his high leadership marks and...
  • Joe's continued development introduces more impact to his steadying play and...
  • Avery or a rookie step up and show to be true, 3-down talent.

The issue is the need to realize all three elements to not have a hole in the room. The odds of realizing all three care pretty long...

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2 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Max Unger retired.

I know there are a few on that list that retired....but, of course, nothing is official until the season starts (and maybe not even then....see Jason Witten)

Gronkowski there, Kyle Williams,...both also announced retirements I believe.   Maybe a couple of others.

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1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Disagree with your conclusion...

Barry made a lot of yards juking defenders in the hole, reversing his field, etc., i.e., true individual effort, truly making something of nothing.

We did not see a lot of that from Chubb.

Rather with Chubb we saw the OL popping him to the and third level of off-balance defenses early and often with stuffs and bottled up runs in between. Most often when everyone knew we were running, we did not run successfully, but I am hard-pressed to think of a team that did.

The one stat in the article you did not list was "Open Field Yards"

This kind of "Home run" , boom-or -bust performance is IMO indicative of an underdeveloped run game in total more than a dependency upon a something from nothing RB.

A record breaking 92 yarder helped with that for sure.  And FYI  I called that play just before it happened  (ask WSS)

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4 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

        Kirk returns to his 2017 form producing a performance the equal of his high leadership marks and...

  • Joe's continued development introduces more impact to his steadying play and...
  • Avery or a rookie step up and show to be true, 3-down talent.

The issue is the need to realize all three elements to not have a hole in the room. The odds of realizing all three care pretty long...

Let me throw in a factor that I think improves those odds immensely. Having a DL fully capable of keeping OLs so busy trying to stop them that they don't get to the LBs anywhere near what we have been seeing for years.

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9 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Meanwhile back at the thread....

As for "holes"... obviously based upon the flood of threads on how great each of our 2019 picks are... we can't have any. ;) And in a sense we do not.

Our roster has progressed to the stage where we have positions where we can still "improve", but the current player looks to be adequate.... something that was far from true 3 years ago.

That said... I still have concerns about our D. Whenever a new Coord/a new system is introduced, the so too is uncertainty introduced. The biggest mitigating factor I see is the talent level of veteran leadership in the various "rooms".

The DL Room: Clearly our strongest room only got stronger thru FA. We expect this group to flourish.

The DB Room: Less veteran in total, especially should Greedy claim LCB as his own, but we are vet where it counts most, up the middle... and our vet Safeties are better than average.

Anyone notice that I skipped a room?

The LB Room: Not especially "vet"... not especially talented going into FA, we came out of FA less so on both counts and did not upgrade the room significantly in the Draft. Certainly there is a scenario thru which we emerge just fine... namely:

  • Kirk returns to his 2017 form producing a performance the equal of his high leadership marks and...
  • Joe's continued development introduces more impact to his steadying play and...
  • Avery or a rookie step up and show to be true, 3-down talent.

The issue is the need to realize all three elements to not have a hole in the room. The odds of realizing all three care pretty long...

Well....I think that Dorsey recognized some potential holes.....in the LB room and the DB room....which is why he went after a corner, a safety, and  two LBs in this draft.  You say that the Browns did not "upgrade the LB room significantly in the draft".   One Mr. John Dorsey may take issue with that position given that he took Takitaki and Wilson.     Tell us why you think Dorsey is wrong and you think you are right.

My position is that while certainly these draft picks at LB are not proven....they still increase the quality of the depth we have there over what backups are/were otherwise on hand. And maybe they will prove to become quality NFL starters. Maybe.  (everything is a maybe)

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This team has no holes now. For the first time is a long, long time, our ship is not leaking. They have reinforced the hull and added new sails as well. FULL SPEED AHEAD, WE'VE A LOMBARDI TO CATCH! 

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