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tiamat63

Who have you watched 2019 Edition

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You know the drill.   Who are you watching...  player/position/school.    List everything you've watched and possibly link some cut ups (NOT Highlights) Then give your detailed (key word) thoughts, impressions, likes, dislikes, etc etc.        The idea is to foster intelligent conversation that might make us look at a player or in some cases, take a second look.    Where do you think they would provide value for our Brownies.

I'll start off with one of my favorites so far.   

 

- Jerry Tillery, DI, Notre Dame.       This kid has some of the goods.    Mainly what I saw was his hands being very active, his feet never stopping, both of those two things being in sync and he displayed good pad level with burst and control.     Wilks says he's looking for a 3-tech....  welp, here's one.      However I see Jerry went under the knife for a torn labrum.  This could be a value day 2 pick.

 I've watched vs Stanford, Vandy and *ichigan 2018 so far.  

 

 

 

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Upon further review of Tillery... had to go through and jump to defensive snaps in full games.  So I started with the Va Tech matchup.

 

 

 

 

I've seen people mention that he looks like a better David Irving from the Cowboys.    I felt that comparison was a little off but couldn't place my finger on just who Tillery looked like to me.   Then it hit me while I was at work - he reminds me of OSU's own Cam Heyward.    And checking into the dimensions, they're incredibly similar physically.    But the play style has the familiar feel.   A bit on the tall side, has the long body but maintains good pad level from initial step.      I see flashes of Cam in Jerry's game. As we know now, is pretty high praise being that Heyward has gone on to be all pro with a very good career.  

 

http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Cameron&l=Heyward&i=6240

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/jerry-tillery?id=32195449-4c18-9606-c437-604f05433c81

... Of course Heyward's combine was limited, but the vertical and 40 times along with the height, weight arm length and hand size are near the same between the two.    

 

 

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T.J. Hockenon, TE from Iowa. Once fells got released I had a little bit of a "hmm" thought that Dorsey went that route. Of course I have no clue if he's considering a TE this high, but IMO there's a lot to like about T.J. In no particular order:

-elite athleticism, more than enough to catch with good hands/routes. 

-Great size for mismatch opportunities

-Above average to great blocking skills-huge asset

-Coming from a great pedigree school of TE's

We'd have to take him first round, but man I can't lie. The thought of T.J, Njoku, Chubb, Landry, and maybe someone like Tyrell Williams from FA in a two TE set makes me drool. Three 6'5' lookin dudes, a great blocker (potentially)-that's downright sezxy

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I mentioned this in a couple other threads so here is part 1.

WR is a position where I look for a couple traits that you simply must show a command of before you reach the NFL.  Or at least before I would draft you in my mind.  You'll see me echo this time and time again.  For WR's I need to see route command/footwork and good hands.       A high drop rate in college generally means you won't be a reliable target in the pro's.   Though there are some exceptions we've seen - going against conventional wisdom usually gets you burned.    Corey Coleman and Vince Mayle are recent examples for the Browns.

LB, much like WR, is no different.   What I want to see most from LB's are things like tackling, gap discipline, understanding of your role in the defense and your assignment, then quickly diagnosing your keys with little wasted motion or false steps.   It's a position of late that, similar to TE, has involved coaches taking promising athletes perhaps without a positional home, and attempting to mold them into what they want/need.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.   But the good news at the high school and collegiate level, usually all it takes is having the better athlete.  Period.     

Which brings me to Devin White.  Apart from the game vs Miami I really hadn't given him a second look.   I did remember while watching that game seeing him flash a couple times.   First impressions matter because I believe I even mentioned interest in fishing offers should he fall to the #10 spot (Before the Brownies traded out).     But when I went back to watch him, the butterflies of that Miami game kind of fell apart midway through the 3rd game I watched.    Let me preface the following by saying I'm not in love with some of the things LSU does defensively.   But by the time I got done watching, I really was fine with missing out on him at 17.       I've watched games vs La Tech, Georiga, Miami, Auburn and Bama.

Strengths -   Burst, speed and closing ability.     Fluid hips moving in space and laterally.     Knifing under blockers when obvious gaps are presented

Things I don't like - eyes tend to get caught in the backfield... a lot.     Loses discipline in pursuit at times.   Gets sucked into the wash on lateral runs and attacks play action fakes, even bad ones, like he wants to kill somebody.   Tends to arrive at the ball carrier or QB with hair on fire and not under control.   Late to the line when he's the fill man.

 

Fortunately I can start with the first play from the second game I watched vs Georgia.

 

 

 

Right off rip - some of you will see this as a classic 3-4 look.  Which minus some shading from the 3 tech it is, and I like that I can use it as an example.    In this particular front, White is the Mack backer.   At least, in most 3 man front terms that's the common word.  But it really depends on what the coaches call it.  I've heard it as the Mack, the Viper and even the WILL in a 34.  Point being, in this alignment and this play specifically, he is the guy that is going to be scraping,  pursuing laterally, watching cutbacks, securing tackles with the Buck as the fill man.   Think similar to what Roquan Smith was asked to do at Georgia and now with Chi Town.  The LSU backers are shifted to the strong side which is the expected point of attack.   White is being asked to flow and secure.  Let the athlete be the athlete.

Let that play run from :002 to :006.    

This is not a good look for White and it shows up quite often in most of what I found.   

- Shoulders and head lateral to the line within his first few steps.  

- First steps are too steep downhill so he immediately has to correct to get wide (hence being too lateral)

- Not trusting your eyes, athletic ability and scheme to bring you to the ball which causes him to overrun the play and at the same time....

....... - Almost sealing the Buck backer out of the play

 

Pause at :004       The nose and the 3 tech win and they win big time.    This is a little inside zone which had no chance going at that B gap because of the win AND the alignment LSU chooses to play.     If you notice at :005 the weakside TE going for White and asking yourself why?  Save for never being in their locker room and in the playbook, I can almost promise you it isn't to isolate White because of his name or a game plan specific to just him.    In most offenses the backside OT and TE's, (this instance TE's ) will ignore the near side edge defender when his alignment is wide enough and go right to picking off a linebacker with zero chip.      That means if you get a body on the run force man (Mack backer),  your running back will typically only deal with the fill man. (Buck backer)  The backside edge defender (#46 in this clip) can scrape down behind the Oline and watch for cutbacks.  But vs teams like Georiga that use QB boot-action, he has to stay at home and watch for the keep (which he does in this case)   So that type of action is on White.   Again, he being asked to be the feature tackler in this defense quite a bit.  The guy that piles up that stats - that's him.  Meanwhile the other guys do the dirty work.    LSU took their best athlete on defense and made him that guy.    See ball - get ball. 

 

What I have on White is long winded so I"ll carry on in a separate post.     But I'll summarize parts at time stamps below and you can look for yourself while I work on condensing notes from the rest.

- @ 0:25

Hard play action but LSU uses him Green dogs here.   He's allowed to pressure the QB should he find the RB stay in for chip help or delay.   He has the speed to attack
the QB before the RB can get into the pattern as a check down.   This is where I talk about arriving under control.   I'll let the result speak for itself.

- @ 1:03

In this play, White is the fill man, which is something you have to keep in your mind when you see the running back opposite of your outside hip.   His keys read run, 
the entire line is downblocking, your near side end is the edge defender and he is the B gap defender.  Roles are reversed here from that very first play I showed you.
He becomes the fill and #6 becomes the run force man.     White's first step is solid, Square, moving downhill and using his eyes. But instead of trusting 
what he sees and exploding downhill just to the outside shoulder of the guard, his pause allows for the double team to move to the second level and the RG gets both him 
and the run force LB.    You want to run the RB inside to pursuit in this particular defense.  The opposite would be a team like that TCU where they spill everything to the ends or safeties.

- @ 1:55 

Bad gap exchange.   I honestly don't know what he was thinking here.   White gets sucked up into the wash instead of planting his ass outside the tackle and turning it to pursuit
Meanwhile #45 gets pinned inside by the #2 receiver.    Oh - coaching tip.   If I see a big receiver/TE body like that, on an early down that screams run to me.  
The last thing I want to do is lose my outside shoulder leverage and be pushed back inside by him.


- @ 2:19 

Similar green dog from earlier.   Except this time he hesitates, attacks so incredibly late that had Fromm stayed with it - this is most likely a TD to Swift.


But then you see some of the potential because of the burst.

- @ Square, eyes, feet under him... then see's the cutback and bursts overtop of the center.    That is the equivalent of a QB making a play off script.  You can't teach
athletic ability like that.


The mostly good stuff I see is from the Miami game.  Like I said, I'll work on posting that a bit later.   
He will need time and a great deal of coaching.  He can run and hit right now, he drops into space well enough and gets underneath receivers pretty well on straight drops.  But he's about the opposite of Luke Kuechley when it comes to play action passes, instincts and attacking passing windows.   So that comparison needs to die now.  


But right now,  my honest belief is that White is a WILL backer project and not necessarily a small project either.   He'll need coaching and time.   But if you want a guy that sees ball - gets ball, and you're willing to live with some serious growing pains...?  You could have a hell of a linebacker in a couple years.      Or you could have Aaron Curry v 2.0 

 

 

       

 

 

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You should put this on a team's board that has a chance to draft him.  It is all irrelevant to us at this point.

We should be looking at guys that may be there at #49;

Nassir Adderly   SS  Delaware   (related to HOFer Herb Adderly?)

Mack Wilson   ILB  Alabama

Juan Thornhill  SS Virginia

Yodney Cajuste   OT  W. Virginia

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We all look forward to your film study posts on those four, Gip...

 

12 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Which brings me to Devin White.

Had a feeling you were foreshadowing a pan... :(

As you said you aren't a fan of the LSU D... I agree. To me it's one that relies on its players' athleticism rather than utilizes it. That plus the fact that many of the mental game shortcomings White displays from time to time are eminently fixable with coaching still make me think he's the best MLB prospect since Kuechley, who was much more polished coming out of BC.

 

Overall I wish I had more to add to your annual thread. For many reasons I just have not had the time this year that I have had in prior years to do the work. Hell... I've yet to tab my annual Sleeper QB yet!

All I've got is a short list of Day 3 type guys that caught my eye... and White, who you and Dorsey are conspiring to keep from me... ;)

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We should start a prediction pool on where White lands once FA dust has cleared.

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3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

He displays from time to time are eminently fixable with coaching still make me think he's the best MLB prospect since Kuechley, who was much more polished coming out. :(

If they were to both to have come out in the same draft,  perceived bias aside,  I would have ranked Shazier ahead of White.   I believe Ryan was the best LB prospect to come out since Luke.  A lot of what White does now,  Shaz had mostly cleaned up by his junior year.  

.... Save for his tendency at time to make missle tackles that could result in self injury. 

 

While I'd like to believe intense coaching and prep could fix some things,  it looks like a steep learning curve and even then - Can Devin get away from the times where it looks like he's just playing with tunnel vision?

Boom or bust.  If I was Dorsey I'm not confident of this franchise being in a position to take a risk like that.    Yet. 

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White Part 2.      

 

When I talk about good film on the kid where GM's would say "this is my guy".  The Miami game is the one I saw that you would use to further that argument.

 

 

 You'll notice starting right off the start the similarity between this play and the very first one I highlighted vs Georgia.     Except with a few differences.  

- It's something of a nickel under front but White is still the WILL backer.

- On the snap he steps laterally, keeping shoulders square and his head moving,  gets underneath the peeling guard and flies in to secure a tackle asst for little gain.

This is White playing under control, understanding his role in the defense and finally trusting his eyes and athletic ability to bring him to the ball.

But the best example of 'see ball, get ball' is at 0:25.   

- Dropping underneath, White reads the lineman releasing in front, plants his foot and drives up field.  

- Takes a sharp, yet controlled angle around the lineman, arrives quickly to the ball carrier yet under control.

This is incredibly similar to one of the strengths Peppers had when coming out as a rookie.  The kid would blow up screens like people owed him money.  White is absolutely no different.

- Same same at 1:32.   Except White starts to the boundary, dropping underneath the #2 yet still runs down the cross screen all the way to the field side.   Kid has a motor for days and these are the traits that jump off screen and make coaches wonder just what they could mold this young man into with the right amount of time and attention.

- Some of the ugly starts to show up at 1:50 though again.   When you see linebackers start to back-peddle in run fits, the rest of your defense suffers for it.

- Side note;  I have zero idea why Miami went away from some of their power game.  Those pulls against that LSU front really did open some holes and you could see White as times hesitate where to attack.

- at 3:40, eye discipline and staying square keeps him from over running the potential cut back off of the backside read.   White is able to recover and limit the damage.  This is another classic example of athletic ability meeting fundamental football.

 

To summarize.  This is arguably one of his best games.  When presented with a choice, especially on RPO's and conflict assignment based plays, White usually made a decent one.  When presented with the need for a tackle to stop further yardage or chased down screens - this is where he shines.      

You're not going to want to draft him for what he isn't (right now)   Take him for what he is and mold him, god willing, into something more.    How much more will depend entirely on the coaching staff, their patience and the length of the leash.  

 

Just for The Gip though, I have Cajuste on deck.

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On 3/14/2019 at 10:44 PM, The Gipper said:

You should put this on a team's board that has a chance to draft him.  It is all irrelevant to us at this point.

So this is the classic "This is not my thread" Gipper signature reply. 

Interesting thread, thanks Tia! 

 

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2 hours ago, Nero said:

So this is the classic "This is not my thread" Gipper signature reply. 

Interesting thread, thanks Tia! 

 

No, this is a classic:  " We got no chance at drafting him this year because he will likely go in the top 15 picks unless the Browns make another major trade of future first round picks since they no longer have a first rounder this year"  signature reply.

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For the Gip.   Early impressions on Cajuste  -  I feel like I'm almost watching a chocolate Corbett.   Without even looking I feel like his arm length is interior Oline-ish.   And having done my first look over several games at full speed, I question whatever coach is teaching him how to short set and/or jump set.    But more on that later after the 2nd view through.

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13 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

For the Gip.   Early impressions on Cajuste  -  I feel like I'm almost watching a chocolate Corbett.   Without even looking I feel like his arm length is interior Oline-ish.   And having done my first look over several games at full speed, I question whatever coach is teaching him how to short set and/or jump set.    But more on that later after the 2nd view through.

I agree a good bit - that is how I ended up drafting Risner in my stupid mock draft.

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