Looking back on Bill

[Mark O]

4 minutes ago, hoorta said:

 

Then you guys should be glad we not only got our team and new players back, because if it wasn't for those legal semantics- you'd be rooting for the Baltimore Browns or the Cleveland Bulldogs. 

Bite your tongue....I was never rooting for the Baltimore Browns.   If it had been a new team in Cleveland after 3 years without anything, not sure I would've really been a fan.  It would've turned into like the NBA for me, I'm happy for Cleveland when the Cavs win but I'm not rushing out buying Cavs merchandise either.   I "rooted" for the Packers and Bears during our 3 years off because those cities and fan bases seemed to be like Cleveland.  Probably would've stuck with one of those or just never had a true "favorite" team again.   

[Gunz41]

5 hours ago, hoorta said:

To some here, it's obviously just semantics. But to some of us the semantics make a mighty important difference as to what happened legally .  Me and Gipper dealt with Baltimorons for years who didn't know the difference, and now apparently some Browns fans aren't willing to admit there is a difference either....  

I agree with you, I'm just saying it appears as if some are not using it in the same way. As in everything that encompasses the franchise moved, while the Cleveland Browns stayed.

I look at it as the team moved, not the franchise. The team being all the people, etc

[hoorta]

37 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

I agree with you, I'm just saying it appears as if some are not using it in the same way. As in everything that encompasses the franchise moved, while the Cleveland Browns stayed.

I look at it as the team moved, not the franchise. The team being all the people, etc

At least someone gets where me & Gip are coming from. The young 'uns may not be aware of how hard some of us worked when Modell pulled the rug out from under us (this was before the Internet really took off) jamming the NFL's Fax machines, picketing their office in New York to at least get table scraps. Modell got plenty of death threats, bet that made him think twice about going out in public for awhile. Some  Browns fans recognized him eating in a restaurant in (I believe it was) West Palm shortly after, and gave him a full fledged barrage of profanity before they were asked to leave, letting him know on a personal level exactly how the fans felt.  Our name, our colors. Best lawyers in Cleveland donated their time to make it happen. 

[The Gipper]

10 hours ago, Orion said:

Thank you for saying what I was just about to say.

Technicalities meant absolutely zero to the tires on the trucks that moved our team to Baltimore.  

Lipstick on a pig.

But that’s just the point the only thing moved to Baltimore were chattels . The contents of the house. The house itself did not move. 

[Orion]

11 hours ago, hoorta said:

Then you guys should be glad we not only got our team and new players back, because if it wasn't for those legal semantics- you'd be rooting for the Baltimore Browns

For Browns fans who have never lived anywhere near Ohio, what is the 'huge' difference between rooting for the Cleveland Browns or the Baltimore Browns?

[Orion]

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

But that’s just the point the only thing moved to Baltimore were chattels 

Look, I understand and have always understood your legal ee's point.  But it does not jive with what we, as Browns fans, went through.  They way to explain what happened to us was that our team moved away and THEN won a super bowl.  The ultimate snub.  As has been said, we got an expansion team that was called the Browns.

[Flugel]

10 hours ago, hoorta said:

 

Then you guys should be glad we not only got our team and new players back, because if it wasn't for those legal semantics- you'd be rooting for the Baltimore Browns or the Cleveland Bulldogs. 

Your Dodge ball continues.  Did Baltimore have a tough time selling games out from the very first time they weren't called the Colts on game day? No, they had the choice of crying in their beers forever or following the sport they love on home turf.   Guess what they chose?  2 SB Championships and several post season appearances later - worries of new team name and colors is all old testament in Ratville.  Winning puts fannies in seats; and it has forever. 

Do you really want to go down memory lane about how happy you have been about this team since 99?  That's 20 years with only 2 winning seasons so quit acting like NOTHING was taken and carrying on with your semantics nonsense.   The franchise was ripped right out of Cleveland; because a very bad business man was being heavily rewarded to move the team,equipment, staff and leadership.  This left Cleveland bulldozing the stadium it won 8 Pro Football championships in and 3 years without football before countless years of football follies followed that you've belly ached about repeatedly.  But hold on, you are now in an argument over semantics so let's sweep all this inconvenient truth right under the rug. 

 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

Look, I understand and have always understood your legal ee's point.  But it does not jive with what we, as Browns fans, went through.  They way to explain what happened to us was that our team moved away and THEN won a super bowl.  The ultimate snub.  As has been said, we got an expansion team that was called the Browns.

 The house analogy I think is the best. There was a house in Cleveland called the Browns. The guy that owned the house moved and took the furniture with him. Title deed to the house stayed in a trust. The foundation of the house stayed the walls and the floor and ceiling the roof all stayed. What was taken Were the couches chairs the bed and the pots and pans. I don’t know how much more simply I can try to make people understand. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

Your Dodge ball continues.  Did Baltimore have a tough time selling games out from the very first time they weren't called the Colts on game day? No, they had the choice of crying in their beers forever or following the sport they love on home turf.   Guess what they chose?  2 SB Championships and several post season appearances later - worries of new team name and colors is all old testament in Ratville.  Winning puts fannies in seats; and it has forever. 

Do you really want to go down memory lane about how happy you have been about this team since 99?  That's 20 years with only 2 winning seasons so quit acting like NOTHING was taken and carrying on with your semantics nonsense.   The franchise was ripped right out of Cleveland; because a very bad business man was being heavily rewarded to move the team,equipment, staff and leadership.  This left Cleveland bulldozing the stadium it won 8 Pro Football championships in and 3 years without football before countless years of football follies followed that you've belly ached about repeatedly.  But hold on, you are now in an argument over semantics so let's sweep all this inconvenient truth right under the rug. 

 

That the house stayed. The new owners had to re-furnish it and they have done purely shitty job of doing so I mean that’s the problem. The new owners got their furniture from big lots instead of going to like Ethan Allen.

[Nero]

5 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

 The house analogy I think is the best. There was a house in Cleveland called the Browns. The guy that owned the house moved and took the furniture with him. Title deed to the house stayed in a trust. The foundation of the house stayed the walls and the floor and ceiling the roof all stayed. What was taken Were the couches chairs the bed and the pots and pans. I don’t know how much more simply I can try to make people understand. 

If the players, coaches and staff moved... Let's rather say that all the house was lifted by its foundations and moved elsewhere, while they poured salt on the soil and the now homeless guys kept only the sign in the front. 

[The Gipper]

41 minutes ago, Nero said:

If the players, coaches and staff moved... Let's rather say that all the house was lifted by its foundations and moved elsewhere, while they poured salt on the soil and the now homeless guys kept only the sign in the front. 

Let’s not say that because that would be wrong.  The fans are the foundation. The stadium in the facilities are the walls and floors. The house obviously needed some renovation but it still is The same house. 

[Nero]

1 minute ago, The Gipper said:

Let’s not say that because that would be wrong. 

And they peed on grandma's tomb before leaving.

[D Bone]

I love the Browns, both version 1.0 and 2.0.....

..... but no so much v1.5 which didn't play very much from 1996-1999

[hoorta]

5 hours ago, The Gipper said:

 The house analogy I think is the best. There was a house in Cleveland called the Browns. The guy that owned the house moved and took the furniture with him. Title deed to the house stayed in a trust. The foundation of the house stayed the walls and the floor and ceiling the roof all stayed. What was taken Were the couches chairs the bed and the pots and pans. I don’t know how much more simply I can try to make people understand. 

We'll just let Flugs believe the franchise moved, he's hopeless...   The analogy I used way back was your corner McDonald's. Building is still there, but owner moved his equipment and employees over to a new Micky D's franchise on the other side of town.. So the corporation took over the old place, and sold it to a new owner- who renovated it, filled it with new equipment and employees...  

4 hours ago, Nero said:

And they peed on grandma's tomb before leaving.

Modell "I had no choice"= lie. He could have sold out to Al Lerner then and there. Nope, he wanted the glory of still being an NFL owner, and passing the team down to his cigar chompin' kid. Nothing short of Divine Justice that he ended up with neither...  However, a guy peed on Modell's grave after he died and put it on YouTube... . Should have left some dog poop there while he was at it. So the more irate Cleveland fans got their revenge in the end too... I said when he passed on the family should have had him cremated, because it was bound to happen sooner or later...  

[Orion]

3 hours ago, hoorta said:

 a guy peed on Modell's grave after he died and put it on YouTube...

Putting it on youtube was brilliant.  Is he outa' jail yet?   

( I guess if ya don't put it on youtube, nobody knows it was done )

[Gunz41]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

We'll just let Flugs believe the franchise moved, he's hopeless...   The analogy I used way back was your corner McDonald's. Building is still there, but owner moved his equipment and employees over to a new Micky D's franchise on the other side of town.. So the corporation took over the old place, and sold it to a new owner- who renovated it, filled it with new equipment and employees...  

Modell "I had no choice"= lie. He could have sold out to Al Lerner then and there. Nope, he wanted the glory of still being an NFL owner, and passing the team down to his cigar chompin' kid. Nothing short of Divine Justice that he ended up with neither...  However, a guy peed on Modell's grave after he died and put it on YouTube... . Should have left some dog poop there while he was at it. So the more irate Cleveland fans got their revenge in the end too... I said when he passed on the family should have had him cremated, because it was bound to happen sooner or later...  

Well, to give Art a tiny benefit of doubt, wouldn't you want to be an owner even if it moved? I mean there are only 32 NFL franchises in the world.

And I think your McDonalds analogy is excellent.

I've never been to Cleveland being from Va, so just going by looking it up, but to expand even more on that. Instead of using McDonald's, use In N Out Burger or Wahlburgers. Neither have a place in Va that I know of. So the owner tries to move that place to Virginia, and for whatever reason. 

[Mark O]

21 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

Well, to give Art a tiny benefit of doubt, wouldn't you want to be an owner even if it moved? I mean there are only 32 NFL franchises in the world.

And I think your McDonalds analogy is excellent.

I've never been to Cleveland being from Va, so just going by looking it up, but to expand even more on that. Instead of using McDonald's, use In N Out Burger or Wahlburgers. Neither have a place in Va that I know of. So the owner tries to move that place to Virginia, and for whatever reason. 

I think it all depends on the fan themselves.   Having been here to see the Chargers move to LA, most long time SD Chargers fans who want nothing to do with the team because they're in LA.  If they had moved to Vegas or San Antonio or Mexico City or anywhere other than LA, I think they would still support the team but LA is the enemy.   There are some who don't care whether they are in LA or SD, they are Chargers fans and will support them anywhere.  Based on attendance, there are far fewer of them.   

[hoorta]

6 hours ago, Orion said:

Putting it on youtube was brilliant.  Is he outa' jail yet?   

( I guess if ya don't put it on youtube, nobody knows it was done )

I think he might have gotten into some trouble over it- nothing major....  I'm sure it's been done plenty of other times, without the fanfare....

[Flugel]

On 2/18/2019 at 10:26 PM, hoorta said:

At least someone gets where me & Gip are coming from. The young 'uns may not be aware of how hard some of us worked when Modell pulled the rug out from under us (this was before the Internet really took off) jamming the NFL's Fax machines, picketing their office in New York to at least get table scraps. Modell got plenty of death threats, bet that made him think twice about going out in public for awhile. Some  Browns fans recognized him eating in a restaurant in (I believe it was) West Palm shortly after, and gave him a full fledged barrage of profanity before they were asked to leave, letting him know on a personal level exactly how the fans felt.  Our name, our colors. Best lawyers in Cleveland donated their time to make it happen. 

Nobody is blasting the fan base Larry.  Just the opposite.  You keep saying the franchise never left but there was no football in Cleveland in 96, 97, and 98 before there was 5-27 football in 99 and 2000 right?  2 winning seasons in 20 years has tarnished the reputation and resume of the Glory years we enjoyed in the 80s and our previous family members enjoyed in the 40s, 50s, and 60s.  Modell buried that no matter how much you want to spin it.  Today?  We're finally feeling some legit hope something is being built the right way 23 years after the move.

The Cleveland Rams established in 1936 - moved to LA in 1945.  The Cleveland Browns kicked off for the 1st time in 1946 - did the previous colors, name or anything from that move prevent fans from getting interested in whatever professional football team CLEVELAND put on the field?   In fact, they didn't even join the NFL until after they dominated the AAFC with 4 consecutive Championships in every ear they participated.  Then they joined the NFL and went to 6 consecutive Championship Games while winning 6 of those.  Guess what solves everything when it comes to getting fans interested?  Nobody gave a crap that they weren't the Rams right?

After getting Modell'd, Paul Brown reminded us the way to stick it up Modell's asss was to keep the orange helmets and get to the SB before Art could. Land ho!  Having said that, the city of Baltimore once felt like they'd never root for another NFL team with a different name and team colors than the Colts.  After there was no NFL in Baltimore - absence made the heart grow fonder for a Pro Team.  They had no trouble selling games out; especially when they started frequenting playoffs and winning SBs. 

YES, our fans had a lot to do with keeping the colors and team name we are happy about. But, there's no pretending how much was lost regardless of semantics.  My friend had a very successful pizza business that he franchised. The most essential ingredients aside from location and name of the franchise are product, leadership, employees, advertising, and customer service/satisfaction. That's where a lot of us are coming from.  In the last 20 years - how often have we read or voiced complaints about customer satisfaction, leadership, personnel choices, and product on the field? 

 

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

 

YES, our fans had a lot to do with keeping the colors and team name we are happy about. But, there's no pretending how much was lost regardless of semantics.  My friend had a very successful pizza business that he franchised. The most essential ingredients aside from location and name of the franchise are product, leadership, employees, advertising, and customer service/satisfaction. That's where a lot of us are coming from.  In the last 20 years - how often have we read or voiced complaints about customer satisfaction, leadership, personnel choices, and product on the field? 

 

I'll just leave it at that- we just see things a little differently.  There's no denying something (in fact a lot of "things") were lost when Modell pulled the rug out from under us... The NFL was unhappy the Panthers and Jaguars got too good, too fast- so they pretty much stuck it to the Browns when they came back. Bad management, with little time to prepare. The young 'uns may not remember Kurt Warner was available to the Browns in the '99 expansion draft- the first of many glaring draft gaffes over the next 20 years. The primary reason the Browns sucked big time in that time span. In fact- the Gilbert\ Manziel fiasco is in serious discussion as the worst first round screw up in history...  

The new stadium was like a church most of that time and overrun by opposing teams fans. It wasn't until this past season the crowd noise level started approaching what it was in the old place. So let's hope that's all in the past, it's past time for the Browns to make a playoff push...   

 

[Canton Dawg]

17 hours ago, Orion said:

Putting it on youtube was brilliant.  Is he outa' jail yet?   

( I guess if ya don't put it on youtube, nobody knows it was done )

Peeing on Modell's grave was sort of a novel idea...but hardly original.

The good people of Baltimore beat the Brown's fans buy a few years.

 

[Westside Steve]

2 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

Peeing on Modell's grave was sort of a novel idea...but hardly original.

The good people of Baltimore beat the Brown's fans buy a few years.

 

Fuck that. He's still a man's father.

WSS

[Gunz41]

8 hours ago, Flugel said:

Nobody is blasting the fan base Larry.  Just the opposite.  You keep saying the franchise never left but there was no football in Cleveland in 96, 97, and 98 before there was 5-27 football in 99 and 2000 right?  2 winning seasons in 20 years has tarnished the reputation and resume of the Glory years we enjoyed in the 80s and our previous family members enjoyed in the 40s, 50s, and 60s.  Modell buried that no matter how much you want to spin it.  Today?  We're finally feeling some legit hope something is being built the right way 23 years after the move.

The Cleveland Rams established in 1936 - moved to LA in 1945.  The Cleveland Browns kicked off for the 1st time in 1946 - did the previous colors, name or anything from that move prevent fans from getting interested in whatever professional football team CLEVELAND put on the field?   In fact, they didn't even join the NFL until after they dominated the AAFC with 4 consecutive Championships in every ear they participated.  Then they joined the NFL and went to 6 consecutive Championship Games while winning 6 of those.  Guess what solves everything when it comes to getting fans interested?  Nobody gave a crap that they weren't the Rams right?

After getting Modell'd, Paul Brown reminded us the way to stick it up Modell's asss was to keep the orange helmets and get to the SB before Art could. Land ho!  Having said that, the city of Baltimore once felt like they'd never root for another NFL team with a different name and team colors than the Colts.  After there was no NFL in Baltimore - absence made the heart grow fonder for a Pro Team.  They had no trouble selling games out; especially when they started frequenting playoffs and winning SBs. 

YES, our fans had a lot to do with keeping the colors and team name we are happy about. But, there's no pretending how much was lost regardless of semantics.  My friend had a very successful pizza business that he franchised. The most essential ingredients aside from location and name of the franchise are product, leadership, employees, advertising, and customer service/satisfaction. That's where a lot of us are coming from.  In the last 20 years - how often have we read or voiced complaints about customer satisfaction, leadership, personnel choices, and product on the field? 

 

But doesn't that show that the franchise didn't leave? Not that it makes much difference to me how you feel, or look at the semantics (not meaning that in a jerk way, you have your opinion and it's yours no matter what and no reason to feel some way for your heart), but when Baltimore got the Ravens, they couldn't be the Colts because the franchise moved, everything it entailed, whereas with the Browns, the rights to the franchise didn't.

 

[Canton Mike]

'nuff said!

Mike

[calfoxwc]

[calfoxwc]