Looking back on Bill

[Flugel]

On 2/15/2019 at 9:09 PM, The Gipper said:

Who moved away. The Browns never moved never ever. 

WTF is the argument here?

The owner of the franchise moved away with the franchise and a 18 wheeler or 2 full of it's possessions.  He had every intention of taking the name of the franchise and colors of the storied tradition to Ratville with him (exactly like the Colts in Indy and Rams did in St Louis). Luckily, Baltimore never got to take the name of the franchise that went to 10 consecutive (Pro Football Championships) in their first 10 years of existence. 

Like it's been argued; they did take some players that weren't PUMPED about leaving Cleveland just to go play for another city bailing Modell's business out of bankruptcy into good fortunes. These were guys we rooted for that wanted to make Cleveland a better franchise regardless of how much $ Art wanted to waste on the Andre Risons and Raymond Claybornes.  If the NFL gave Cleveland in 99  the same 2 picks in rounds 1-3 they gave Ozzie Newsome, we might have got more picks right even if just by accident. 

I never found it easy to hate ANY of the former Browns in Ratville.   That was a huge conflict of interest for me; especially considering how much I wanted to see that owner fail in front of the 1 fan base that should have understood our situation far better than the lack of class they extended us for years. 

[Flugel]

17 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

It is technical semantics that you would lose your billion dollar bet on dude you get it you lose because of those technicalities if there was real money on the line I would have your money in my pocket. As it is like I said you just owe me lunch

Comeon Gips - Enough already! 

Technical semantics in this case is arguing for the sake of arguing like the Foolosh we always got from Ghoolosh.  I always got the sense he thought if Vida Blue could pitch a no hitter on acid - he felt he could win a debate in here regardless of how much illegal TN Stupid juice and acid he powered down. 

You're not being paid to win. You're in here to discuss a topic which involves reading and accepting some of the common ground people are presenting to you. 

 

[Mark O]

47 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Comeon Gips - Enough already! 

Technical semantics in this case is arguing for the sake of arguing like the Foolosh we always got from Ghoolosh.  I always got the sense he thought if Vida Blue could pitch a no hitter on acid - he felt he could win a debate in here regardless of how much illegal TN Stupid juice and acid he powered down. 

You're not being paid to win. You're in here to discuss a topic which involves reading and accepting some of the common ground people are presenting to you. 

 

I agree.   It's all technical semantics.   The team of players moved or left or whatever you want to call it but as someone said, the players we rooted for in 95 were all playing in a different city in 96.   We've gotten way off the original topic on this thread. 

Getting back on topic, I was never one who hated Bill when he was our coach, probably why I don't hate him now or hate the Patriots like so many do.   Most of his decisions were probably correct at the time.  Getting rid of Bernie was not one of those, especially considering the choice to replace was Charlie Philcox or whatever his name was.   The team was heading in the right direction, up until the move was announced and then it all turned to shit.    Should also be noted, that I didn't live in Cleveland during this time and it was pre internet so getting Browns news was not quite as easy as it is today.

[Flugel]

38 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Most of his (BB) decisions were probably correct at the time.  Getting rid of Bernie was not one of those, especially considering the choice to replace was Charlie Philcox or whatever his name was.  

It was Vinny Testaverde that BB brought here to start. The only reason you saw Todd Philcox at all was because the starting QB was injured 1 game in 92 and 4 games in 93. He didn't play at all here as a backup in 91. We did go 11-5 in the 94 season Vinny started 13 games for us (w/ a 9-4 record); and he also started the wild card game Cleveland beat NE in.

I LOVED Bernie as did most of us when he was younger and healthier.  Bernie endured significant injuries to his shoulder/elbow that compromised his delivery to side arm almost underhand at times.  Do I wish his ending was handled better?  Absolutely.  When you get right down to it - Bernie was never a starting QB again unless the starter in front of him got injured.

[Mark O]

17 minutes ago, Flugel said:

It was Vinny Testaverde that BB brought here to start. The only reason you saw Todd Philcox at all was because the starting QB was injured 1 game in 92 and 4 games in 93. He didn't play at all here as a backup in 91. We did go 11-5 in the 94 season Vinny started 13 games for us (w/ a 9-4 record); and he also started the wild card game Cleveland beat NE in.

 

Correct...but Vinny was hurt when Bernie was released so Bill thought that Todd Philcox was a better option at QB than Bernie which was a pretty poor decision based on how that first start for Philcox went.   At that time...Vinny was the better QB than Bernie.  The decision that I question is releasing him to start Philcox.

[ATOM]

51 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Correct...but Vinny was hurt when Bernie was released so Bill thought that Todd Philcox was a better option at QB than Bernie which was a pretty poor decision based on how that first start for Philcox went.   At that time...Vinny was the better QB than Bernie.  The decision that I question is releasing him to start Philcox.

i stood right behind bill on the 50 yard line in seattle the week after he let bernie go and damn i let him have it

[Westside Steve]

1 hour ago, Mark O said:

Correct...but Vinny was hurt when Bernie was released so Bill thought that Todd Philcox was a better option at QB than Bernie which was a pretty poor decision based on how that first start for Philcox went.   At that time...Vinny was the better QB than Bernie.  The decision that I question is releasing him to start Philcox.

Maybe. Bernie had become accustomed to being the main guy. They had a successful season with Bud Carson who was basically a nebbish. Bill came in and wanted to do his thing but Bernie didn't so Bernie was insubordinate. No head coach can allow that to happen on his team. And as I mentioned before some New England fans were up in arms because he let Drew Bledsoe go. Whether you love Bernie or not a head coach cannot surrender his authority to a player who is no longer a force. Or even is.

WSS

[Mark O]

17 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Maybe. Bernie had become accustomed to being the main guy. They had a successful season with Bud Carson who was basically a nebbish. Bill came in and wanted to do his thing but Bernie didn't so Bernie was insubordinate. No head coach can allow that to happen on his team. And as I mentioned before some New England fans were up in arms because he let Drew Bledsoe go. Whether you love Bernie or not a head coach cannot surrender his authority to a player who is no longer a force. Or even is.

WSS

I don't disagree really with any of that.   Except thinking Philcox was a better option to win games.  

[Westside Steve]

10 minutes ago, Mark O said:

I don't disagree really with any of that.   Except thinking Philcox was a better option to win games.  

I doubt that he believed that was the case but his hands were tied.  

WSS

[Westside Steve]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PhilTo00.htm

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KosaBe00.htm

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, Mark O said:

I don't disagree really with any of that.   Except thinking Philcox was a better option to win games.  

There's way more to the story than that. 

Mark, if Belichick really wanted to replace Kosar with Philcox - why didn't he do it in 91 or 92 or for the 1st 6 weeks of 93? In all that time, Belichick only started Philcox once because the guy ahead of him was injured.   That's not exactly slam dunking he felt like Todd Philcox gave us our best chance to win; any more than the rationale to bring Testaverde here for a lot more money than Philcox was making.

Anyway, the BK that was once 12-4 in 86, 8-4 in 87, 6-3 in 88 and 9-6-1 in 89 became 3-10 in 90, 6-10 in 91, 2-5 in 92 and 3-3 in 93 for us.  That's 4 different years of Belichick starting Bernie first hoping to see the same player many of us adored.  Aside from the declining records, the injuries to his shoulder, elbow and leg/foot weren't exactly forecasting best football ahead. 

Again, 93 began with Bernie starting the first 6 games.  Then Testaverde replaced him as starter for a few games before he got hurt. Immediately after that, Bernie told BB to F--- off and we gagged on Philcox the rest of that season.  Meanwhile Jimmy Johnson got Dallas to sign Bernie for the final 4 weeks of the regular season. Bernie started 1 of those games and lost. 

Bernie and Sipe were my favorite QBs here but when their windows closed - they slammed shut.  No other NFL team signed them to be their starting QB. 

[Orion]

7 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

ill came in and wanted to do his thing but Bernie didn't so Bernie was insubordinate

True.  But Bill did NOT do what was best for the team at the time.  As I said much earlier, we had a pretty good team and Bernie could've kept them afloat until Vinny got healthy.  Bill should've bit the bullet for a while....for the good of the team.  The QB position is too important to the outcome of football games.  But hey, that's the way he is.  He held his CB out of the superbowl and lost the game.  He's a pig-head.

[Westside Steve]

5 hours ago, Flugel said:

There's way more to the story than that. 

Mark, if Belichick really wanted to replace Kosar with Philcox - why didn't he do it in 91 or 92 or for the 1st 6 weeks of 93? In all that time, Belichick only started Philcox once because the guy ahead of him was injured.   That's not exactly slam dunking he felt like Todd Philcox gave us our best chance to win; any more than the rationale to bring Testaverde here for a lot more money than Philcox was making.

Anyway, the BK that was once 12-4 in 86, 8-4 in 87, 6-3 in 88 and 9-6-1 in 89 became 3-10 in 90, 6-10 in 91, 2-5 in 92 and 3-3 in 93 for us.  That's 4 different years of Belichick starting Bernie first hoping to see the same player many of us adored.  Aside from the declining records, the injuries to his shoulder, elbow and leg/foot weren't exactly forecasting best football ahead. 

Again, 93 began with Bernie starting the first 6 games.  Then Testaverde replaced him as starter for a few games before he got hurt. Immediately after that, Bernie told BB to F--- off and we gagged on Philcox the rest of that season.  Meanwhile Jimmy Johnson got Dallas to sign Bernie for the final 4 weeks of the regular season. Bernie started 1 of those games and lost. 

Bernie and Sipe were my favorite QBs here but when their windows closed - they slammed shut.  No other NFL team signed them to be their starting QB. 

Well Brian Sipe got a huge paycheck to lead the New Jersey generals

WSS

[The Gipper]

14 hours ago, Flugel said:

Comeon Gips - Enough already! 

Technical semantics in this case is arguing for the sake of arguing like the Foolosh we always got from Ghoolosh.  I always got the sense he thought if Vida Blue could pitch a no hitter on acid - he felt he could win a debate in here regardless of how much illegal TN Stupid juice and acid he powered down. 

You're not being paid to win. You're in here to discuss a topic which involves reading and accepting some of the common ground people are presenting to you. 

 

I am here to tell the truth and the facts and the facts are the Browns franchise never moved. and the only people to back me up in that contention are the Cleveland Browns the Baltimore ravens city of Cleveland the city of Baltimore the National Football League state of Ohio state of Maryland county of Cuyahoga Baltimore County and anyone that says that they’ve met someone that backed up they have like as much credibility as a carnival fortune teller 

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

I am here to tell the truth and the facts and the facts are the Browns franchise never moved. and the only people to back me up in that contention are the Cleveland Browns the Baltimore ravens city of Cleveland the city of Baltimore the National Football League state of Ohio state of Maryland county of Cuyahoga Baltimore County and anyone that says that they’ve met someone that backed up they have like as much credibility as a carnival fortune teller 

We're not denying some players moved to Baltimore...  Players come and go, coaches come and go, Front offices come and go. And in the case of the Ravens and Browns even owners come and go.  

But the legal entity of "The Cleveland Browns" isn't the players, coaches, or owner. It's "The Franchise" which was granted to- who was it originally- Mickey McBride? By the NFL.

In response to Flugels- sure, Modell initially tried to take the franchise along with him to Baltimore- but thanks to legalities (for those who would bother to listen) he couldn't. At least not until his lease with Cleveland ran out. He was obligated by the specific performance clause that he could move everything to Baltimore- but had to play his games in Cleveland. Period. Rather than agree to that scenario- Modell caved in. And relinquished the Browns franchise to the NFL to be held in trust, while he got his new shiny Baltimore Ravens Franchise.  

So thank goodness for legalities- or the few Cleveland NFL fans that would have remained would have been rooting for the Baltimore Browns....  Maybe had that happened- the NFL would have played nine-nice and granted Cleveland the expansion franchise- the Cleveland Bulldogs. Would you have supported them? I know I wouldn't have.... 

That's the history- guys. If you don't believe it- I really don't care, but believe anything else- you're buying into revisionist- or misinformed history...  

[Dutch Oven]

5 hours ago, hoorta said:

That's the history- guys. If you don't believe it- I really don't care

Nothing says "I don't care" like constantly going off topic in a thread to prove your point. 😁

You are right, the Browns didn't move to Baltimore.

Except that in 1995 and 1996 the NFL had the same amount of teams, and with one exception every team was in the same city except for one.  But the NFL Cleveland team did NOT lose their team, and Baltimore did NOT gain a team. Got it. 

[lodilobo]

The team moved....not some players....the team. That included the coaching staff, all players, all equipment, the owner, etc, etc.  Originally they were to be the Baltimore Browns, but the Cleveland fans caused such an uproar, that was not to be. Also...it didn't sit well with the Baltimore fans. They wanted their "own" team, ideally. They were so starved for football, they would have accepted any terms, though. Remember the rumors of Tampa Bay, Cincy, and some others relocating here after the move? It would have sucked, but most of us would have accepted it. The franchise was negotiated to stay in Cleveland AFTER the physical move of the team. So, you can argue this forever, but all I know is in '95 I had an NFL team to watch, go to games, and root for in Cleveland, but in '96 I didn't. Also...on BB.....He was a big pain in the ass, and I hated him, in spite of watching the team improve in '94. I hated him for Metcalf up the middle, for the way he handled fans and media, but most of all for cutting Kosar. In hind sight, he was right to cut Kosar....even if it meant losing with Todd Philcox. Just like someone else said....the HC cannot let any player undermine his authority. I still hate BB.

[lodilobo]

The article was stupid....BB was fired by Modell AFTER the move...NOT in Cleveland. 

[Flugel]

9 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Well Brian Sipe got a huge paycheck to lead the New Jersey generals

WSS

Like I said, he never started for another NFL team after his window closed. 

Sipe and Kosar were my favorite Cleveland QBs; but I'm keeping it real about when they were no longer starting caliber QBs in the NFL. 

[Westside Steve]

2 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Like I said, he never started for another NFL team after his window closed. 

Sipe and Kosar were my favorite Cleveland QBs; but I'm keeping it real about when they were no longer starting caliber QBs in the NFL. 

Oh I completely understood that you specified NFL.

WSS

[Flugel]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

We're not denying some players moved to Baltimore...  Players come and go, coaches come and go, Front offices come and go. And in the case of the Ravens and Browns even owners come and go.  

But the legal entity of "The Cleveland Browns" isn't the players, coaches, or owner. It's "The Franchise" which was granted to- who was it originally- Mickey McBride? By the NFL.

In response to Flugels- sure, Modell initially tried to take the franchise along with him to Baltimore- but thanks to legalities (for those who would bother to listen) he couldn't. At least not until his lease with Cleveland ran out. He was obligated by the specific performance clause that he could move everything to Baltimore- but had to play his games in Cleveland. Period. Rather than agree to that scenario- Modell caved in. And relinquished the Browns franchise to the NFL to be held in trust, while he got his new shiny Baltimore Ravens Franchise.  

So thank goodness for legalities- or the few Cleveland NFL fans that would have remained would have been rooting for the Baltimore Browns....  Maybe had that happened- the NFL would have played nine-nice and granted Cleveland the expansion franchise- the Cleveland Bulldogs. Would you have supported them? I know I wouldn't have.... 

That's the history- guys. If you don't believe it- I really don't care, but believe anything else- you're buying into revisionist- or misinformed history...  

He did take the franchise with him - what do you think was in the 18 wheelers - Mrs Modell's makeup?  Where did the roster come from?  Ozzie?  He wanted the colors and the storied tradition as well.

He wanted to bone you up the dumpster without the vaseline Hoorta. 

Now, all the players remaining on Art's roster that LOVED playing in Cleveland for the loyal fan base (and bummed they moved) were the bad guys on Sundays?  The former Browns weren't the scum bags.   

 

[Westside Steve]

13 minutes ago, Flugel said:

He did take the franchise with him - what do you think was in the 18 wheelers - Mrs Modell's makeup?  Where did the roster come from?  Ozzie?  He wanted the colors and the storied tradition as well.

He wanted to bone you up the dumpster without the vaseline Hoorta. 

Now, all the players remaining on Art's roster that LOVED playing in Cleveland for the loyal fan base (and bummed they moved) were the bad guys on Sundays?  The former Browns weren't the scum bags.   

 

Of course some of the players, including Matt Barr, love the guy. I loved the guy until, well you know. I wish the city of Cleveland would have gotten off their Collective ass and built the new stadium. Not positive that would have cleared up the situation but the opposition certainly didn't help. 

Actually I would have liked to see the state of the art Stadium in Strongsville where Modell's reportedly had some property set aside. 

Then Fannie Lewis could have done her Victory lap around the empty carcass of Muni Stadium.

By the way before anybody starts to lecture me I realize Arthur also needed the infusion of cash from Baltimore on top of the new stadium and still couldn't hang on. But I think the league and the city are as much to blame.

WSS

[The Gipper]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

We're not denying some players moved to Baltimore...  Players come and go, coaches come and go, Front offices come and go. And in the case of the Ravens and Browns even owners come and go.  

But the legal entity of "The Cleveland Browns" isn't the players, coaches, or owner. It's "The Franchise" which was granted to- who was it originally- Mickey McBride? By the NFL.

In response to Flugels- sure, Modell initially tried to take the franchise along with him to Baltimore- but thanks to legalities (for those who would bother to listen) he couldn't. At least not until his lease with Cleveland ran out. He was obligated by the specific performance clause that he could move everything to Baltimore- but had to play his games in Cleveland. Period. Rather than agree to that scenario- Modell caved in. And relinquished the Browns franchise to the NFL to be held in trust, while he got his new shiny Baltimore Ravens Franchise.  

So thank goodness for legalities- or the few Cleveland NFL fans that would have remained would have been rooting for the Baltimore Browns....  Maybe had that happened- the NFL would have played nine-nice and granted Cleveland the expansion franchise- the Cleveland Bulldogs. Would you have supported them? I know I wouldn't have.... 

That's the history- guys. If you don't believe it- I really don't care, but believe anything else- you're buying into revisionist- or misinformed history...  

Precisely.  Think of a team franchise like the deed to property. Who issued the deed to the Cleveland Browns franchise? Originally it was the E FC. Then those deed if you win right we’re going to do the NFL in the 1950 merger. And since then it is the NFL that has the granting rights. The NFL granted those Deed Rights to the city of Cleveland. In the city of Cleveland has always held those rights. Modelz effort to transfer those rights was unsuccessful and actually denied by the league. But what he did do is it created a new deed to a new franchise in Baltimore and it granted The rights to that franchise to Modell and that deed to Baltimore.

[The Gipper]

50 minutes ago, Flugel said:

He did take the franchise with him - what do you think was in the 18 wheelers - Mrs Modell's makeup?  Where did the roster come from?  Ozzie?  He wanted the colors and the storied tradition as well.

He wanted to bone you up the dumpster without the vaseline Hoorta. 

Now, all the players remaining on Art's roster that LOVED playing in Cleveland for the loyal fan base (and bummed they moved) were the bad guys on Sundays?  The former Browns weren't the scum bags.   

 

Floogals your thousand dollars would be in my pocket if we made a bet on it. 

[Gunz41]

To me, I see both sides being "right." Yes the entire team/therefore the franchise went to Baltimore, but everything Cleveland Browns didn't. So I'm reading these posts and just see both sides using different views of a word.

I look at it like this. If San Diego or St Louis were to get teams, they couldn't go back to their Chargers/Rams, as the entire thing moved. I think what throws people off with the topic is getting an "expansion" team. But expansion and new arent mutually exclusive. Its expanding the league with another team, not a new team. 

Maybe that doesn't make sense, but hopefully it does. 

[hoorta]

7 hours ago, Flugel said:

He did take the franchise with him - what do you think was in the 18 wheelers - Mrs Modell's makeup?  Where did the roster come from?  Ozzie?  He wanted the colors and the storied tradition as well. 

Now, all the players remaining on Art's roster that LOVED playing in Cleveland for the loyal fan base (and bummed they moved) were the bad guys on Sundays?  The former Browns weren't the scum bags.   

 

And we corrected your error Flugs... Modell tried to take the franchise with him.  And failed. Players are not the franchise. Coaches aren't the franchise. Modell had the NFL rights to the the Browns franchise but was forced to relinquish it to the City of Cleveland and the NFL to settle the lawsuit Cleveland slapped him with. 

Cities like Baltimore, San Diego, St. Louis, and Oakland aren't so lucky. Other NFL cities learned a valuable lesson from the Cleveland fiasco- and when they shell out damn near a billion today to build an NFL owner a pleasure palace, they put a specific performance clause poison pill in the stadium lease that makes is difficult, if not impossible for an owner to break. See Jacksonville as a prime example. They would have been long gone to greener pastures otherwise. 

 

[hoorta]

44 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

To me, I see both sides being "right." Yes the entire team/therefore the franchise went to Baltimore, but everything Cleveland Browns didn't. So I'm reading these posts and just see both sides using different views of a word.

I look at it like this. If San Diego or St Louis were to get teams, they couldn't go back to their Chargers/Rams, as the entire thing moved. I think what throws people off with the topic is getting an "expansion" team. But expansion and new arent mutually exclusive. Its expanding the league with another team, not a new team. 

Maybe that doesn't make sense, but hopefully it does. 

To some here, it's obviously just semantics. But to some of us the semantics make a mighty important difference as to what happened legally .  Me and Gipper dealt with Baltimorons for years who didn't know the difference, and now apparently some Browns fans aren't willing to admit there is a difference either....  

[Orion]

2 hours ago, hoorta said:

To some here, it's obviously just semantics. 

Thank you for saying what I was just about to say.

Technicalities meant absolutely zero to the tires on the trucks that moved our team to Baltimore.  

Lipstick on a pig.

[Flugel]

2 hours ago, hoorta said:

To some here, it's obviously just semantics. But to some of us the semantics make a mighty important difference as to what happened legally .  Me and Gipper dealt with Baltimorons for years who didn't know the difference, and now apparently some Browns fans aren't willing to admit there is a difference either....  

I got your semantics right here! 

I don't know many franchise owners in America that think employees, equipment and leadership staff aren't the most important parts of their franchise.  It doesn't matter as long as you and Gipper know otherwise... 

 

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

Thank you for saying what I was just about to say.

Technicalities meant absolutely zero to the tires on the trucks that moved our team to Baltimore.  

Lipstick on a pig.

 

58 minutes ago, Flugel said:

I got your semantics right here! 

I don't know many franchise owners in America that think employees, equipment and leadership staff aren't the most important parts of their franchise.  It doesn't matter as long as you and Gipper know otherwise... 

 

Then you guys should be glad we not only got our team and new players back, because if it wasn't for those legal semantics- you'd be rooting for the Baltimore Browns or the Cleveland Bulldogs.