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4 minutes ago, Orion said:

...but as you indicate, Sashi was fired because of the picks he DIDN'T make.  We needed a QB....and he let everyone else have them.  

The Rams are in the SB.  Why?  They didn't have any high draft pick to be getting a top notch QB.  So they traded all the way up to #1 so they could go to a super bowl.

The Eagles won the SB.  They didn't have any high pick to get a top notch QB.  So they gladly traded with the dopes with the 2nd overall pick so THEY could go win a SB.

I've read where at one of the pro days they went to (which they didn't go to many) he asked somebody, Which of these guys are we supposed to be watching?  -  We were a bunch of hacks.

----------

As has been said, we are past that now.  Haslam is taking a back seat to Dorsey as far as football decisions.  And Dorsey is doing a good job improving the talent level for his new QB.  

I'm reminded of coming out of  the Derek Anderson ten win season....we were the trendy pick for the following season....Monday night games, 4 prime timers I think.   I remember thinking, This could go awfully bad next year.  I had absolutely no faith in Derek Anderson.  I felt like we would be embarrassed on prime time.   ---   THIS YEAR, once again, we're the trendy pick again.  There's talk of us on prime time often next year.  But I DO NOT have that Derek Anderson Sinking Feeling this time.  I have a Baker Mayfield  'DANGEROUS'  feeling.  I have a, 'We can play with ANYBODY' feeling.  

 

I couldn't stand DA and I agree that the feeling about Baker is TOTALLY different in a very good way.

Mike

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5 hours ago, Zombo said:

Top 3 reasons Sashi Brown got fired:

gettyimages-1090426834-594x594.jpg?quali

Then Dorsey uses the 0-16 season engineered by Kizer to draft  franchise QBMayfield and the pick obtained from the Watson pick with Houston to draft Pro Bowler Denzel Ward, after collecting Sashi's three first rounders (including Pro Bowler Garrett and S Peppers, who is also from the Watson trade) and we are off to the races ...It's a funny game!

Z

I am and always will be a believer that Sashi Brown got screwed in this whole thing. Don't get me wrong. John Dorsey is absolutely, 100% the right guy to run this team moving forward. However, this was all part of Sashi's plan to burn it to the ground, acquire picks, have very creative and well crafted contracts, and then build it back-up. Yes, they did not select the qb's above, but that was never in the cards.  The long game was to acquire assets for the future. IMOP, Trubisky is WAAAAY overrated and should have never been a pro bowler, watson is very good but still struggles in the pocket and mahomes...yeah, he's special and there is nothing bad to say about him. Sashi brown never got the chance to fully execute his plan, and I personally, think that he should get more credit than he does. Dorsey has done a great job, but Sashi absolutely laid the groundwork. Haslam panicked as he does time and time again and never gave the full plan a chance. The browns failures are on Haslam alone for being a terrible owner and not listening to the smarter people in the game. This article painfully paints this picture. One only hopes Haslam actually read the article and had a come to Jesus meeting. Once again, Dorsey is the right man for the job and I have zero qualms about that...but just imagine what him and Sashi brown could have done together. 

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6 hours ago, Zombo said:

Top 3 reasons Sashi Brown got fired:

gettyimages-1090426834-594x594.jpg?quali

Then Dorsey uses the 0-16 season engineered by Kizer to draft  franchise QBMayfield and the pick obtained from the Watson pick with Houston to draft Pro Bowler Denzel Ward, after collecting Sashi's three first rounders (including Pro Bowler Garrett and S Peppers, who is also from the Watson trade) and we are off to the races ...It's a funny game!

Z

But even Sashimi had no clue (courtesy of an incompetent coach) would result in 0-16....  

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1.) John Dorsey has added 4 players on roster by attaching draft picks. 2.) JD has traded 9 players adding draft picks. 3.) JD moved up once, & down once, last draft moving picks. 4.)Combining JD's time here & KC he has traded with 49'ers 5 times, 3 times with Zona & Bills, Twice with Jags & GB. Once with TB,Mia.,Skins & Car..They all sit above us at #17. 5.) Other teams that JD has build trading business with? Pats. 3 times, Vikings twice. Once TB,Dallas & Seattle. Most of these teams GM's are still around...We own 2 3th & 3 5th round picks...I'd expect more wheelin & dealing in the coming months.. set over/under of browns draft picks at draft of maybe 7 or 8? 

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8 hours ago, Bigalow80 said:

I am and always will be a believer that Sashi Brown got screwed in this whole thing. Don't get me wrong. John Dorsey is absolutely, 100% the right guy to run this team moving forward. However, this was all part of Sashi's plan to burn it to the ground, acquire picks, have very creative and well crafted contracts, and then build it back-up. Yes, they did not select the qb's above, but that was never in the cards.  The long game was to acquire assets for the future. IMOP, Trubisky is WAAAAY overrated and should have never been a pro bowler, watson is very good but still struggles in the pocket and mahomes...yeah, he's special and there is nothing bad to say about him. Sashi brown never got the chance to fully execute his plan, and I personally, think that he should get more credit than he does. Dorsey has done a great job, but Sashi absolutely laid the groundwork. Haslam panicked as he does time and time again and never gave the full plan a chance. The browns failures are on Haslam alone for being a terrible owner and not listening to the smarter people in the game. This article painfully paints this picture. One only hopes Haslam actually read the article and had a come to Jesus meeting. Once again, Dorsey is the right man for the job and I have zero qualms about that...but just imagine what him and Sashi brown could have done together. 

There's some truth to this, but there's also the truth that one of his two drafts were pretty much a huge swing and a miss. (Sashi's second is looking much better.) The 2016 Draft was, sans Joe Schobert, mediocre to horrible. 

The problem is, a complete rebuild sounds great in theory, but a lot of times the guys who endure it do not get to stick around to reap the benefits. That's a big reason the Browns struggled to fill the head coach gig when they started in 1999. Brian Billick is on record saying he didn't want to do all the hard work of working with an expansion team to only get fired and have it given to someone else. 

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13 hours ago, Orion said:

...but as you indicate, Sashi was fired because of the picks he DIDN'T make.  We needed a QB....and he let everyone else have them.  

The Rams are in the SB.  Why?  They didn't have any high draft pick to be getting a top notch QB.  So they traded all the way up to #1 so they could go to a super bowl.

The Eagles won the SB.  They didn't have any high pick to get a top notch QB.  So they gladly traded with the dopes at #2 overall pick so THEY could go win a SB.

I've read where at one of the pro days they went to (which they didn't go to many) Sashi asked somebody, Which of these guys are we supposed to be watching?  -  We were a bunch of hacks.

I could swear that Foles won the SB for the Eagles and Goff was the QB we had atop our board. Guess my memory is bad.

And some people still do not understand Sashi's role. At this point it has to be willful. There's simply no other possibility...

 

As Z's "three top reasons"... Only Mahommes looks like the sure thing and precious few had him penciled in as that.

Watson stayed healthy this year but looked ordinary in many games... especially when the lights were brightest.

Trubs? Looks like Dilfer with wheels so far.

 

As a bonus I remind folks that Wentz is O-fer when it comes to seasons finished.

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1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

There's some truth to this, but there's also the truth that one of his two drafts were pretty much a huge swing and a miss. (Sashi's second is looking much better.) The 2016 Draft was, sans Joe Schobert, mediocre to horrible. 

The problem is, a complete rebuild sounds great in theory, but a lot of times the guys who endure it do not get to stick around to reap the benefits. That's a big reason the Browns struggled to fill the head coach gig when they started in 1999. Brian Billick is on record saying he didn't want to do all the hard work of working with an expansion team to only get fired and have it given to someone else. 

Completely agree. I think that maybe had we drafted Goff and he would have sunk in the Browns (just like he did with Fischer at Rams), but getting Coleman instead of Michael Thomas is one of those things you keep remembering every time you watch the Saints. 

He lost credit on the 2016 draft and then Hue didn't help him either. That's why I didn't like when they kept Hue: either you fired Jackson or both, but not only Sashi. Offense was awful and a blind squirrel could see it was because of bad coaching.

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9 hours ago, Bigalow80 said:

I am and always will be a believer that Sashi Brown got screwed in this whole thing. Don't get me wrong. John Dorsey is absolutely, 100% the right guy to run this team moving forward. However, this was all part of Sashi's plan to burn it to the ground, acquire picks, have very creative and well crafted contracts, and then build it back-up. Yes, they did not select the qb's above, but that was never in the cards.  The long game was to acquire assets for the future. IMOP, Trubisky is WAAAAY overrated and should have never been a pro bowler, watson is very good but still struggles in the pocket and mahomes...yeah, he's special and there is nothing bad to say about him. Sashi brown never got the chance to fully execute his plan, and I personally, think that he should get more credit than he does. Dorsey has done a great job, but Sashi absolutely laid the groundwork. Haslam panicked as he does time and time again and never gave the full plan a chance. The browns failures are on Haslam alone for being a terrible owner and not listening to the smarter people in the game. This article painfully paints this picture. One only hopes Haslam actually read the article and had a come to Jesus meeting. Once again, Dorsey is the right man for the job and I have zero qualms about that...but just imagine what him and Sashi brown could have done together. 

Damn you're smart... ;)

Same sentiments here, but even I never had the thought in bold cross my mind. Even as big as I fear JD's ego is, Sashi just might have made their relationship work.

1 hour ago, gumby73 said:

1.) John Dorsey has added 4 players on roster by attaching draft picks. 2.) JD has traded 9 players adding draft picks. 3.) JD moved up once, & down once, last draft moving picks. 4.)Combining JD's time here & KC he has traded with 49'ers 5 times, 3 times with Zona & Bills, Twice with Jags & GB. Once with TB,Mia.,Skins & Car..They all sit above us at #17. 5.) Other teams that JD has build trading business with? Pats. 3 times, Vikings twice. Once TB,Dallas & Seattle. Most of these teams GM's are still around...We own 2 3th & 3 5th round picks...I'd expect more wheelin & dealing in the coming months.. set over/under of browns draft picks at draft of maybe 7 or 8? 

Good stuff here...

NFL GMs make up a small club where relationships are very important. His failure to grasp that was one of Sashi's flaws... quite possibly his biggest. I remember reports that other GMs began to dislike him because he tried to "win" every deal. Dorsey seems to have a "win-win" mentality that builds these relationships. Some of their difference is likely attributable to their differing levels of security in their jobs.

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

There's some truth to this, but there's also the truth that one of his two drafts were pretty much a huge swing and a miss. (Sashi's second is looking much better.) The 2016 Draft was, sans Joe Schobert, mediocre to horrible. 

The problem is, a complete rebuild sounds great in theory, but a lot of times the guys who endure it do not get to stick around to reap the benefits. That's a big reason the Browns struggled to fill the head coach gig when they started in 1999. Brian Billick is on record saying he didn't want to do all the hard work of working with an expansion team to only get fired and have it given to someone else. 

As I've said before allowances have to made for Sashi's first draft. There simply was not time to implement the revolutionary new FO approach Jimmah signed up for. Even at that you overlook Ogbah, Kindred, DeValve and, last but not least, Higgins, who finally showed his promise in 2018. Your oversights may not boost our 2016 Draft dramatically, but are more than enough to take "horrible" off the table with "good" in its place.

Billick was prescient wasn't he? From the outside he saw Jimmah's end game... ending a four-year plan after two years. I can practically hear Jimmah when he fired Sashi, "What can I say Sash... you fucked up... you trusted me."

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38 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

I could swear that Foles won the SB for the Eagles and Goff was the QB we had atop our board. Guess my memory is bad.

And some people still do not understand Sashi's role. At this point it has to be willful. There's simply no other possibility...

 

As Z's "three top reasons"... Only Mahommes looks like the sure thing and precious few had him penciled in as that.

Watson stayed healthy this year but looked ordinary in many games... especially when the lights were brightest.

Trubs? Looks like Dilfer with wheels so far.

 

As a bonus I remind folks that Wentz is O-fer when it comes to seasons finished.

My Top three reasons were: "He didn't identify the quarterback, He didn't identify the quarterback, He didn't identify the quarterback."

Did Sashi do what ownership wanted him to do? Yes. He went along with the plan

But ownership is fickle, and impatient. That's not Sashi's fault ... it's just the truth. And Sashi was supposed to not only scorch earth, but he was to pick the right players when he did pick. And ownership was looking (at the time Sashi was fired) at Wentz have an MVP-type season and Watson was having a rookie season for the ages and our QB corral consisted of Kizer, Kessler and Hogan, none of whom could even win a football game with the Browns.

Sashi got screwed, but we are all better off for it, because Sashi collected the picks, and now Dorsey makes the picks.

Dorsey took two seconds to cut Kenny Britt, and you knew shit was about to get real. His first two picks, Mayfield and Ward, were not the media and fan favorites, but he nailed them, that is easy to see after one season. Chubb, Calloway, Avery  ... 5 starters in one draft.

Sashi set them up, Dorsey knocked them down.

Had Sashi grabbed Watson or Trub or Mahomes as his qb of the future instead of Kizer, he'd probably gotten a longer leash ... but it worked out well, didn't it?

Jimmy tripped into the right guy.

Zombo

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On 1/30/2019 at 9:00 AM, Tour2ma said:

I could swear that Foles won the SB for the Eagles and Goff was the QB we had atop our board. Guess my memory is bad.

And some people still do not understand Sashi's role. At this point it has to be willful. There's simply no other possibility...

 

As Z's "three top reasons"... Only Mahommes looks like the sure thing and precious few had him penciled in as that.

Watson stayed healthy this year but looked ordinary in many games... especially when the lights were brightest.

Trubs? Looks like Dilfer with wheels so far.

 

As a bonus I remind folks that Wentz is O-fer when it comes to seasons finished.

Or maybe what should’ve happened is that SawShe should’ve been responsible for making the moves and the trades. But then someone else should’ve been picking the draft picks.  His moves were good his pics were terrible. 

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1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

I could swear that Foles won the SB for the Eagles and Goff was the QB we had atop our board. Guess my memory is bad.  Nope.  Your memory is fine.  The backup had to finish the season.  

And some people still do not understand Sashi's role. At this point it has to be willful. There's simply no other possibility...He was in charge of football.  He had the final say if a consensus could not be reached among 'the committee:)

 

As Z's "three top reasons"... Only Mahommes looks like the sure thing and precious few had him penciled in as that.

Watson stayed healthy this year but looked ordinary in many games... especially when the lights were brightest.

Trubs? Looks like Dilfer with wheels so far.

All three in the playoffs.

 

As a bonus I remind folks that Wentz is O-fer when it comes to seasons finished.  Don't say stuff like that to anger the football Gods.  We don't have a backup as good as Foles.

 

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8 hours ago, Orion said:

All three in the playoffs.

And this just in... out of the playoffs.

8 hours ago, Orion said:

He was in charge of football.  He had the final say if a consensus could not be reached among 'the committee:)

I stand by my statement. Thanks for proving my point.

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I am not sure why all the Sashi love. The only thing I will give him credit for is sticking to his "plan". The problem with this was there was no flexibility in his plan. So if you come across a franchise QB you might pick him earlier than the plan says because those guys are hard to find. It was just stupid to trade down out of the two spot. I get it, you are tearing things down and want draft picks, well a franchise QB trumps multiple picks. I don't think Sashi could have picked any better player than I could have or most of us during his tenure and to me thats a problem. If us guys on  a message board can't many any worse picks then the GM then thats a problem. Dorsey proved in one draft how much better of a talent evaluator he is. Sashi is a nice guy, but I thought he was a terrible GM.

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10 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

I've said before allowances have to made for Sashi's first draft. There simply was not time to implement the revolutionary new FO approach Jimmah signed up for. Even at that you overlook Ogbah, Kindred, DeValve and, last but not least, Higgins, who finally showed his promise in 2018. Your oversights may not boost our 2016 Draft dramatically, but are more than enough to take "horrible" off the table with "good" in its place.

The 2016 Browns draft was "good". 

Yeah, I'm not even touching that. 

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1 hour ago, runyon27 said:

I am not sure why all the Sashi love. The only thing I will give him credit for is sticking to his "plan". The problem with this was there was no flexibility in his plan. So if you come across a franchise QB you might pick him earlier than the plan says because those guys are hard to find. It was just stupid to trade down out of the two spot. I get it, you are tearing things down and want draft picks, well a franchise QB trumps multiple picks. I don't think Sashi could have picked any better player than I could have or most of us during his tenure and to me thats a problem. If us guys on  a message board can't many any worse picks then the GM then thats a problem. Dorsey proved in one draft how much better of a talent evaluator he is. Sashi is a nice guy, but I thought he was a terrible GM.

How many times have we seen teams give up multiple picks, moving up to draft their potential franchise QB. The Rams did it for Goff, and the Chiefs for Mahomes?  The Browns made moving up for a QB only to see him bust an art form- Johnny Football and Brady Quinn come to mind.   

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

The 2016 Browns draft was "good". 

Yeah, I'm not even touching that. 

I'll give that draft a "C" mabe a "C-"  average to below average at best. Considering first round pick Stonehands Coleman is barely hanging on with the Giants,  and half the guys they drafted (quantity is better than quality mentality) aren't even on the team anymore, and a few are out of the league. 

Compare that to Dorsey's 5 starters, a rookie who made the Bro Bowl, and the guy who should (but probably won't) win the OROTY.  A+ there maybe?   

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3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

I stand by my statement. Thanks for proving my point.

Sashi Brown (born May 15, 1976) is an American attorney and former executive for the Cleveland Browns. He was the Executive Vice President of football operations for the Cleveland Browns of the National Football League from January 3, 2016, until his firing on December 7, 2017.

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1 hour ago, Orion said:

Sashi Brown (born May 15, 1976) is an American attorney and former executive for the Cleveland Browns. He was the Executive Vice President of football operations for the Cleveland Browns of the National Football League from January 3, 2016, until his firing on December 7, 2017.

Yeah- Sashi proved being a Harvard lawyer doesn't necessarily make you a good football executive...   As Jimmy Haslam found out- "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit."  Sashi may well have been a master of both...  

5 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

 

I stand by my statement. Thanks for proving my point.

Regarding Sashi and "consensus".  I have no proof of this, but MHO is- when there was no consensus, he picked the wrong guy...  aided and abetted by Depodesta...   From what we know of Dorsey picking Kitchens as Head Coach over what's-his-name (favored by you know who), hindsight tells me Depodesta's fingerprints are all over the 2016 draft....   

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6 hours ago, hoorta said:

hindsight tells me Depodesta's fingerprints are all over the 2016 draft....   

I can't argue much with that.   After all, there were a couple of comments that he made to the media after the draft.

1 -  We don't think Carson Wentz will be a top 20 QB in the league.

2 -  We drafted players that were productive in college.  (I remember thinking, But does their college production project to NFL production?)

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22 hours ago, runyon27 said:

 I don't think Sashi could have picked any better player than I could have or most of us during his tenure and to me thats a problem.

Picking players was never part of his job description.

19 hours ago, Orion said:

Sashi Brown (born May 15, 1976) is an American attorney and former executive for the Cleveland Browns. He was the Executive Vice President of football operations for the Cleveland Browns of the National Football League from January 3, 2016, until his firing on December 7, 2017.

Thanks again for proving my point.

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21 hours ago, hoorta said:

I'll give that draft a "C" mabe a "C-"  average to below average at best. Considering first round pick Stonehands Coleman is barely hanging on with the Giants,  and half the guys they drafted (quantity is better than quality mentality) aren't even on the team anymore, and a few are out of the league. 

Compare that to Dorsey's 5 starters, a rookie who made the Bro Bowl, and the guy who should (but probably won't) win the OROTY.  A+ there maybe?   

Next week I'm going to start a thread on this very subject, since that draft class just finished it's third season. (Which is when many think you can start grading a draft class). 

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1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Thanks again for proving my point.

There's no charge for that service.

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16 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Picking players was never part of his job description.

Really?  Then why was he doing that job? Or having any say in it.

Thanks again for proving my point.

 

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.....just give up Gip.

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1 hour ago, Orion said:

.....just give up Gip.

Tour won't admit it- when there was no consensus, and that certainly happened- Shashi did indeed have the final say. And asked his anal-itics guy Depodesta "Wentz won't be a top 20 QB in the NFL" who to draft....    

Say what? they just tossed players names in a hat and pulled one out when "consensus" failed?  

Thank God that's over and done with. The new order is Dorsey looked over Depodesta's "anal-itics" and last draft told Paul- "go sit over there in a corner, and when I want your opinion, I'll ask for it".   

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On 1/31/2019 at 6:53 PM, Orion said:

There's no charge for that service.

At least the price is right... ;)

10 hours ago, hoorta said:

Tour won't admit it- when there was no consensus, and that certainly happened- Shashi did indeed have the final say. And asked his anal-itics guy Depodesta "Wentz won't be a top 20 QB in the NFL" who to draft....    

Say what? they just tossed players names in a hat and pulled one out when "consensus" failed? 

First, I love having Wentz thrown out as the example... I really do. A question h.... would you trade Baker for Wentz?

Actually it's you who won't admit that you do not understand the consensus approach. I'll simplify it for you...

When there's no consensus, you pass. Whether it's a business strategy or a  football player... no hats involved. You simply move to the strategy/player for which there is consensus. In a draft then it's a matter of whether you take that player with the pick at hand or trade down to tab him at a spot you believe is more in line with his "value".

It's really not that hard guys...

 

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Wentz is not a fine example to use in that regard for Sashi. 

Now...  Corey Coleman in favor or some other players on the board ( including my screaming for Michael Thomas)  might have been a better way to make your argument. 

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11 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Wentz is not a fine example to use in that regard for Sashi. 

Now...  Corey Coleman in favor or some other players on the board ( including my screaming for Michael Thomas)  might have been a better way to make your argument. 

Well said!  Hindsight 20/20 shows we could have traded back even further into round 1 or round 2 (and landed more picks) for the very same Michael Thomas that wasn't drafted until the 47th slot overall in round 2. Hard to believe he was the 6th WR taken in that draft...

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9 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Well said!  Hindsight 20/20 shows we could have traded back even further into round 1 or round 2 (and landed more picks) for the very same Michael Thomas that wasn't drafted until the 47th slot overall in round 2. Hard to believe he was the 6th WR taken in that draft...

No hindsight necessary.  I still have some screen shots saved easily calling him the #1 receiver in my mind for that class.   I would have had zero issue taking him in place of where we did with CC.    Sadly, history was not so kind to us.

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16 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

No hindsight necessary.  I still have some screen shots saved easily calling him the #1 receiver in my mind for that class.   I would have had zero issue taking him in place of where we did with CC.    Sadly, history was not so kind to us.

I hear ya, which is why i said "Well said!" I just added the hindsight 20/20 to show how many teams/scouts didn't have the first clue what this guy was capable of.

Edited by Flugel
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The consensus theory regarding Sashi's time with the Browns is a solid one.

It means that the argument can be made that nothing bad that happened under his watch was really his fault, but anything good that happened can be linked directly to Sashi.

Its brilliant.  

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