Jamie Collins

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

On 1/5/2019 at 9:53 PM, Unsympathetic said:

Yea, if you ignore his next-to-last rating against the pass.

And was below league average [46.1 on PFF] before he got hurt.  His season before was the aberration, not the rule.  His actual value is nowhere near the contract he was given.

 

Put away the rose-colored glasses and evaluate the reality of the players we have.  At no point do i not appreciate their dedication and sacrifice... they're just not good enough.

I’m not opposed to acquiring a stud LB through draft or FA but currently I feel the DT opposite to Larry Ogunjobi is the main priority. 

What I don’t think a lot of people don’t get about Kirksey and his contact is that it seems potential based.

4 years: 6 mil/year, 8 mil, 10 mil, 10.5 mil. He is a physically gifted player, and it has shown throughout his career. By the time he’s making that money, he’ll be making plays. He has been a Brown his whole career. 

[TexasAg1969]

10 hours ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

I’m not opposed to acquiring a stud LB through draft or FA but currently I feel the DT opposite to Larry Ogunjobi is the main priority. 

What I don’t think a lot of people don’t get about Kirksey and his contact is that it seems potential based.

4 years: 6 mil/year, 8 mil, 10 mil, 10.5 mil. He is a physically gifted player, and it has shown throughout his career. By the time he’s making that money, he’ll be making plays. He has been a Brown his whole career. 

All that said if White from LSU is still there @ #17, we've got to take him. The guy is the next MLB dominator. And I hope we seriously consider moving up to take him if we have not done anything in FA.

[jrb12711]

On 1/5/2019 at 10:38 AM, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

Isn’t he the only super bowl vet we have?

I was upset with his effort at times but Collins is a talented/experienced LB and we need those.

Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.

Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry

Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.

[Tour2ma]

On 1/6/2019 at 7:19 AM, flyingfooldoug said:

I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen a center or nose guard take plays off. Lazy bastards!

You might if you ever watched the line play instead of following the ball.

I suppose you don't remember ever seeing an NT/DT trot off the field when it's 3rd and long either...

[Tour2ma]

4 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.

Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry

Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.

We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.

As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.

[Bob806]

On 1/5/2019 at 10:58 AM, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

I can see through his “lack of” effort. He got traded to the F’n Browns guys. Let’s take off those Brownie/orange shades.

He was playing soft to avoid injury on a “bad” team. He played hard in the ATL game when the team started to figure out: “hey, we don’t suck”

one pick was the raiders game, he alligator armed a huge int(tough play) and the other he dropped a Driskell pick 6 at Cinci for sure. He doesn’t have great hands.

Dont get it confused, the roster was semi built with a #1 and #4 overall picks, Dorsey is a smart business man by coming to Cleveland to work his magic.

If we had a kicker(Greg Joseph has a future) we’d still have Hue.. so I’m ok with the end result....

Came to this thread late, but that's the same way I feel. He looked amazing vs the Falcons, and played well every game after it. 

I'm not crazy about him but agree with others, there's no rush to dump him until the decisions on coaching staff are made.

 

[flyingfooldoug]

9 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

You might if you ever watched the line play instead of following the ball.

I suppose you don't remember ever seeing an NT/DT trot off the field when it's 3rd and long either...

I’ll ask. I know a long time pro NG. QBs must be good at faking it too. Taking plays off in the pros? It happens. Then they’re ex pros. But I will ask oh arrogant all knowing one

[Tour2ma]

What do you think QBs do after handing off? Push ups?

And not so much knowing as it is seeing...

[jrb12711]

14 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.

As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.

Sure, at the time I wasn't mad at the contract and completely agree. Only way we were going to get ANY FA's the last five years was to overpay them greatly.

I just use that data to suggest that going into next season, his rate of pay IMO doesn't equate to similar (admittedly somewhat different) players at the position. Point is, it's fair to say he's getting paid at a superstar (or very near) level and I'm not sure he's played close to that at all. Seeing he's also hit the 30 year old mark and as I've described the guys we know we're gonna have to pay, I don't see how his contract gets justified.

[Ibleedbrown]

19 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.

Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry

Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=LINEBACKER&tabSeq=1&season=2018&akmobile=ios&akmobile=ios&role=&experience=&akcarrier=other&akcarrier=other&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null

I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?

Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too. 

They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.

[Tour2ma]

12 minutes ago, jrb12711 said:

Point is, it's fair to say he's getting paid at a superstar (or very near) level and I'm not sure he's played close to that at all. Seeing he's also hit the 30 year old mark and as I've described the guys we know we're gonna have to pay, I don't see how his contract gets justified.

Agree with that point... the contract is outsized, but (my point) it always was...

Ultimately the issue is whether you can replace let alone upgrade his on field contributions irrespective of cost. I don't see that being as easy at ROLB as it is at several other positions including the other two LB slots.

And I say that loving both Joe and Kirk.

[jrb12711]

1 hour ago, Ibleedbrown said:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=LINEBACKER&tabSeq=1&season=2018&akmobile=ios&akmobile=ios&role=&experience=&akcarrier=other&akcarrier=other&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null

I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?

Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too. 

They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.

Good stuff and point taken. I think I'd argue tackles aren't as "impressive" simply because any LB worth a lick getting starters minutes is going to be in the 100+ range of tackles on a season. In terms of the affording his contract, I'd again point out that we have a ton of guys to potentially pay going into 2020 and 2021. The cap rule of spending as I understand applies over a period of four years, beginning in 2017. When you consider the guys we'd wanna pay (potentially), hoarding cash and losing this contract could really mean keeping the core young guys on good deals.

 

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Agree with that point... the contract is outsized, but (my point) it always was...

Ultimately the issue is whether you can replace let alone upgrade his on field contributions irrespective of cost. I don't see that being as easy at ROLB as it is at several other positions including the other two LB slots.

And I say that loving both Joe and Kirk.

Definitely a fair point. I wouldn't be against a restructure to keep the guy. He's just not worth the price tag.

[Ibleedbrown]

2 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

Good stuff and point taken. I think I'd argue tackles aren't as "impressive" simply because any LB worth a lick getting starters minutes is going to be in the 100+ range of tackles on a season. In terms of the affording his contract, I'd again point out that we have a ton of guys to potentially pay going into 2020 and 2021. The cap rule of spending as I understand applies over a period of four years, beginning in 2017. When you consider the guys we'd wanna pay (potentially), hoarding cash and losing this contract could really mean keeping the core young guys on good deals.

There’s probably a healthy and mutually beneficial middle ground here. If ‘20 or ‘21 is what you’re worried about, pay the man now and table this conversation until this time next year. Serves multiple purposes. Veteran presence and production next year, possible tutilage for his successor, and a statement from the team that they will honor their contracts might bode well for the guys you hope to lock up in ‘20 or ‘21.