Educated voters breaking hard against GOP

[cccjwh]

47 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Too bad you didn't take a couple of semesters of reading comprehension. If you did you would notice that I said most and I believe earlier I did not include in stem classes.

But yes in most courses you'd have to have a basic understanding of the high school level. And I don't think that's a very high bar Basically you have to know just a little bit more than the kids. Let me ask you, besides  a couple science courses  what other courses do you think you'd have  a problem brushing up on  in a few weeks?  You have your lesson plan handed to you on your first day and it doesn't change. If you don't have the aptitude for it it doesn't matter if you have a doctorate degree and English literature you won't be a good teacher.

WSS

 

What you are describing is the same with almost any job out there. I ran a new circuit in my house, does that mean I can be an electrician? I do my own taxes, does that mean an accountant? 

 

 

[Westside Steve]

2 minutes ago, cccjwh said:

What you are describing is the same with almost any job out there. I ran a new circuit in my house, does that mean I can be an electrician? I do my own taxes, does that mean an accountant? 

 

 

First of all running a circuit means that you did the job that electrician might do for 65 bucks an hour. If you did your own taxes you did a job that an accountant would charge you a couple hundred bucks for minimum. 

What is it that you think teachers do on a day-to-day basis that you couldn't? I will assume that there are larger and more complicated jobs that an accountant or an electrician are called upon to do. Teachers? I don't think so.

 

WSS

[calfoxwc]

4 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

First of all running a circuit means that you did the job that electrician might do for 65 bucks an hour. If you did your own taxes you did a job that an accountant would charge you a couple hundred bucks for minimum. 

What is it that you think teachers do on a day-to-day basis that you couldn't? I will assume that there are larger and more complicated jobs that an accountant or an electrician are called upon to do. Teachers? I don't think so.

 

WSS

  Some teachers, maybe plenty of them, get their degree and can't teach squat - their personality/lack of ability gets in the way.

Just like getting a computer science degree doesn't give you the innate ability to be good at it. If I had gotten a degree in music, does that mean I could be Elvis-like, like Steve? Heck, no. Now, back in the day, I could play some good guitar cords and me and my best friend could sing a few Simon and Garfunkel songs not half-bad. Now, retired, I am sure I COULD sing them half bad. lol

Understanding a subject doesn't mean you have the skills to educate others as to your understanding. Communication is two way street.

[cccjwh]

7 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

First of all running a circuit means that you did the job that electrician might do for 65 bucks an hour. If you did your own taxes you did a job that an accountant would charge you a couple hundred bucks for minimum. 

What is it that you think teachers do on a day-to-day basis that you couldn't? I will assume that there are larger and more complicated jobs that an accountant or an electrician are called upon to do. Teachers? I don't think so.

 

WSS

Deal with kids and their parents. Kids see their teachers more than they see their parents. Teacher has a long term affect on kids, that you don't think that is important, I can't explain it to you. You get what you pay for. 

[Westside Steve]

4 minutes ago, cccjwh said:

Deal with kids and their parents. Kids see their teachers more than they see their parents. Teacher has a long term affect on kids, that you don't think that is important, I can't explain it to you. You get what you pay for. 

But that's what I call aptitude. Some people do that well naturally some people don't. And a master's degree doesn't make you any more or less personable.

Think about it when you were in high school how many teachers did you absolutely love? How many did you dislike? And how many were just babysitters?

WSS

[cccjwh]

5 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

But that's what I call aptitude. Some people do that well naturally some people don't. And a master's degree doesn't make you any more or less personable.

Think about it when you were in high school how many teachers did you absolutely love? How many did you dislike? And how many were just babysitters?

WSS

That's the point. If we keep under paying teachers and under valuing them, the good ones will find different jobs. All we will have left is the babysitters. This is already happening. You don't get into teaching because the great pay and respect. I couldn't handle being disrespected daily by not only spoiled students, but also their parents like you.

 

[Westside Steve]

3 minutes ago, cccjwh said:

That's the point. If we keep under paying teachers and under valuing them, the good ones will find different jobs. All we will have left is the babysitters. This is already happening. You don't get into teaching because the great pay and respect. I couldn't handle being disrespected daily by not only spoiled students, but also their parents like you.

 

Not really. Somebody who loves it will do it not only because they get paid twice the average salary in Ohio that because they only work three quarters of the year or less. If you double the salaries the ones that are already good will still be good and it will just have 80% of Deadwood getting paid twice as much.

WSS

[cccjwh]

43 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Not really. Somebody who loves it will do it not only because they get paid twice the average salary in Ohio that because they only work three quarters of the year or less. If you double the salaries the ones that are already good will still be good and it will just have 80% of Deadwood getting paid twice as much.

WSS

You keep telling yourself that.

https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https://www2.ed.gov/documents/respect/teaching-profession-facts.doc

The average beginning salary for public school teachers in 2011 was $39,000 and the average salary in 2009-10 was $55,350.

Teachers with 10 or fewer years of experience now constitute over 52 percent of our teaching force.

Teacher job satisfaction has dropped 15 points since 2009, from 59% who were very satisfied to 44% who are very satisfied, the lowest level in over 20 years.

The percentage of teachers who say they are very or fairly likely to leave the profession has increased by 12 points since 2009, from 17% to 29%.

 

 

[Westside Steve]

That's all teachers average from K through 12. The average individual salary as well. Not household. If I'm not mistaken the average single salary in Ohio is in the thirties.

WSS

[Westside Steve]

1 hour ago, cccjwh said:

You keep telling yourself that.

https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https://www2.ed.gov/documents/respect/teaching-profession-facts.doc

The average beginning salary for public school teachers in 2011 was $39,000 and the average salary in 2009-10 was $55,350.

Teachers with 10 or fewer years of experience now constitute over 52 percent of our teaching force.

Teacher job satisfaction has dropped 15 points since 2009, from 59% who were very satisfied to 44% who are very satisfied, the lowest level in over 20 years.

The percentage of teachers who say they are very or fairly likely to leave the profession has increased by 12 points since 2009, from 17% to 29%.

 

 

Your last tistic makes a point I don't think you expected. 29% say they would bail for more money. And as I keep trying to hammer into your thick skull if you don't love teaching you're probably not any good at it. I would say that 29% doesn't give a rat's ass about teaching anyway. I don't know what you do for a living but I would personally not take another type of job for more cash unless it was astronomical and temporary.

My minor was in secondary Ed.

WSS

[cccjwh]

12 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Your last tistic makes a point I don't think you expected. 29% say they would bail for more money. And as I keep trying to hammer into your thick skull if you don't love teaching you're probably not any good at it. I would say that 29% doesn't give a rat's ass about teaching anyway. I don't know what you do for a living but I would personally not take another type of job for more cash unless it was astronomical and temporary.

My minor was in secondary Ed.

WSS

You are making the assumption that the reason people leaving teaching is because they don't love teaching. If you are only going to post your feelings, it doesn't effect my opinion. I need actual data and evidence. 

https://www.weareteachers.com/why-teachers-quit-the-profession/

1. Challenging work conditions

According to one 2017 survey of nearly 5,000 teachers conducted by the AFT and BadassTeachers, nearly two-thirds feel their jobs are “always” or “often” stressful—roughly double the rates of stress experienced by the general workforce.

Cassandra M. tells us, “Educators are bombarded with paperwork, ridiculous curriculum, and lack of time along with unrealistic expectations.”

2. Not enough support, not enough respect

Many teachers feel the negative effects of what they perceive as a lack of respect. A recent report from Penn State University and the non-profit Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, claims among professional occupations, teachers rate lowest in feeling that their opinions count at work.

3. Testing and data collection

The demands teachers are feeling as a result of high-stakes standardized testing and the emphasis on data collection is definitely a hot button issue among teachers who are leaving. According to an NEA survey of classroom teachers, 72 percent replied that they felt “moderate” or “extreme” pressure to increase test scores from both school and district administrators.

4. No longer looking out for kids’ best interests

Bonnie D. left after 30 years of teaching because she felt the system was no longer acting in the best interest of all students. “Everything became all about passing the ‘almighty test,'” she says. “Decisions were made by the administrators to concentrate only on those students who could perform well. Call me old fashioned, but I always did my best to reach and teach every student in my room, not simply the ones who had the best chance of passing a test.”

5. In the end, family takes priority

Teachers are a particularly tenacious lot, but some teachers are leaving because they have decided to invest their energy closer to home. “After eight years of teaching and 20 years of dreaming about teaching, I have left the profession,” says Cedar R. “Due to an overall lack of support, I found it very difficult to balance teaching and raising my two children.”

[Clevfan4life]

If teachers want to get paid more  which im ok with....it comes with a caveat, they accept higher standards. The teachers unions have kind of gotren away with themselves when they say we want higher pay but dont blame us when 80% of our kids struggle to point out canada on a global map

[calfoxwc]

it's the liberal tweaking and stereotyping of students, etc etc, that has done damage to the teaching profession.

NCLB.

Never included special education considerations in their "studies".

Liberal professions slap changes on the teaching profession again and again and again...

mucking it up, for the sake of developing their resumes for better paying superintendent roles in other school systems.

The IEP fiasco has grown to a point of absolute overwhelming convoluted bs.

[The Cysko Kid]

9 hours ago, cccjwh said:

What you are describing is the same with almost any job out there. I ran a new circuit in my house, does that mean I can be an electrician? I do my own taxes, does that mean an accountant? 

 

 

I wouldn't recommend you running any new circuits in your house if you're not a qualified electrician. Doing your own taxes won't burn your house down and kill your whole family and possibly your neighbors'

[The Cysko Kid]

5 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

If teachers want to get paid more  which im ok with....it comes with a caveat, they accept higher standards. The teachers unions have kind of gotren away with themselves when they say we want higher pay but dont blame us when 80% of our kids struggle to point out canada on a global map

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5894e819e4b061551b3dfe51/amp

 

According to ultra liberal Huffington Post our schools are among the best. The problem is we let...uh..."all" the children get educated. 

 

 

[Browns149]

Going back to the original topic

Are you suggesting GOP voters are not as smart as DEM voters 

[MLD Woody]

10 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

But that's what I call aptitude. Some people do that well naturally some people don't. And a master's degree doesn't make you any more or less personable.

Think about it when you were in high school how many teachers did you absolutely love? How many did you dislike? And how many were just babysitters?

WSS

I was pretty much in all of the "advanced" classes in school. Almost all of those teachers were great. None were babysitters. And they all really understood their course work. They helped teach and drive the top of the class. They were very important.

Teachers are incredibly important in students' lives. They deal with a lot of pressure, parents, kids, etc. Poor conditions and salary have driven a lot of people away. People that don't understand what teachers do, don't understand their importance, and just go on about a "summer break" act like they have some cush job. Education especially early education, is the backbone to a lot of things in society. Why we would choose to demonize and pay as little as possible to the people most instrumental in this is beyond me. 

[MLD Woody]

Steve, you seemed to make a hard stand here in moving the goalposts. I think you realized you have no way at all to backup the original anti education claims you made ("masters are generally less successful"), so you've dug in deep on the anti teachers narrative. Which, sure, is just a lot more feeling and opinion. I guess you feel like you have a better shot with this one.  

[Westside Steve]

27 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Steve, you seemed to make a hard stand here in moving the goalposts. I think you realized you have no way at all to backup the original anti education claims you made ("masters are generally less successful"), so you've dug in deep on the anti teachers narrative. Which, sure, is just a lot more feeling and opinion. I guess you feel like you have a better shot with this one.  

Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.

Do something you love to do and you are good at and you should be happy. If it's money you're after find something that you can do that other people can't or that other people don't want to.

WSS

[MLD Woody]

8 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.

Do something you love to do and you are good at and you should be happy. If it's money you're after find something that you can do that other people can't or that other people don't want to.

WSS

The starting wages for teachers are low. Especially considering all of the schooling involved. 

Getting paid half as much to do something is a big motivator not to do it.

Like how I believe STEM majors in govt. positions would be great, but most don't want anything to do with it. 

[Bob806]

6 hours ago, Browns149 said:

Going back to the original topic

Are you suggesting GOP voters are not as smart as DEM voters 

Naw. Voters in general aren't very smart regardless of party affiliation. 

Anybody could make a list of career politicians on either side of the aisle that totally suck, yet we keep re electing 'em. 

[OldBrownsFan]

3 hours ago, Bob806 said:

Naw. Voters in general aren't very smart regardless of party affiliation. 

Anybody could make a list of career politicians on either side of the aisle that totally suck, yet we keep re electing 'em. 

I got a kick out of something Winston Churchill said about the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. 

[TexasAg1969]

On 11/28/2018 at 10:13 AM, Westside Steve said:

Furthermore I think one of the largest classes of people with Advanced degrees are School teachers most of which I think are lucky to have their cake jobs. Jobs that just about anybody who can read and write could do if they have a little bit of aptitude.

Have before you explode yes I think your degree is harder to get and more necessary to success in your field.

WSS

LOL! Another ridiculous statement. Cake jobs? You have no f'n idea how hard teaching is or how many hours a week are devoted to it. Try grading English papers for 150 (often much more) students even once a month. Then throw in the much longer research papers which requires teaching all 150 how to do research and assist them with what ideas to develop for research. All 150. And don't get me started on how long it takes just to grade similar amounts of math homework and still be have lesson plans all done every day of the week. Teaching is one of the hardest jobs out there requiring more time outside of class than it does actually teaching in class. Go sit in as a volunteer for a week and see what they actually do for a living. Make sure you include grading/recording and meetings too.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

 

[OldBrownsFan]

39 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

 

The blonde hair kid is right. Real teaching is a gift. Teachers who are worth anything have a teachers heart and passion that thrives on educating students. It is not just a job to them. Any teacher who is just in it for the paycheck is probably typical of this dud of a teacher.

[Westside Steve]

36 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

LOL! Another ridiculous statement. Cake jobs? You have no f'n idea how hard teaching is or how many hours a week are devoted to it. Try grading English papers for 150 (often much more) students even once a month. Then throw in the much longer research papers which requires teaching all 150 how to do research and assist them with what ideas to develop for research. All 150. And don't get me started on how long it takes just to grade similar amounts of math homework and still be have lesson plans all done every day of the week. Teaching is one of the hardest jobs out there requiring more time outside of class than it does actually teaching in class. Go sit in as a volunteer for a week and see what they actually do for a living. Make sure you include grading/recording and meetings too.

Approximately 5 classes per day at 45 or 50 minutes each. 180 days out of the year if that many. Even if you take an entire hour for lunch that means you have a couple of hour long study halls.

Also the only ones you actually have to read for the occasional essays and papers. In my experience almost all of the question and answers are graded quickly. True-false and multiple-choice even more quickly. And those are often if not usually rated by a student assistant. As far as I can tell no teacher is ever required to use a coal shovel.

WSS

[Westside Steve]

CCC, Also as to teachers leaving for better paying jobs and your number was what, 28% said that they would? I would imagine anybody with any job would seriously consider jumping ship for more money. I don't know what any of you guys do for a living but I'm in the minority. For instance I wouldn't take a job working at a music store for twice the money that I make playing. But if I worked a crap job at the music store and the music store across the street wanted to double my salary... Does that sink in?

WSS

[TexasAg1969]

48 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Approximately 5 classes per day at 45 or 50 minutes each. 180 days out of the year if that many. Even if you take an entire hour for lunch that means you have a couple of hour long study halls.

Also the only ones you actually have to read for the occasional essays and papers. In my experience almost all of the question and answers are graded quickly. True-false and multiple-choice even more quickly. And those are often if not usually rated by a student assistant. As far as I can tell no teacher is ever required to use a coal shovel.

WSS

I lived with an English HS teacher Steve. You are talking out of your hat. I said goodbye in August and hello in June. Every waking hour is spent on schoolwork related stuff, including grading papers thoroughly while eating breakfast, through those lunch hours and "study halls" and all evenings and all weekend long from morning until late at night. Her last year she had 6 classes with 30 in each. Do the math. And have you ever even accurately graded an English paper turned in by a HS student?  They are an absolute mess and only get better if you grade them thoroughly every time you grade them for each individual student.

She had no student assistant and you don't do English with multiple choice/T-F. You have no idea what you are talking about. I do. I watched her do it well over 30 years. It was nice to be married for other than just summers after she retired. Oh, almost forgot. She never let up during T-day week, Xmas "vacation" or Spring break either. Those are a myth for students only. I can't ever remember even visiting family during any of those where she wasn't carting papers along. 

More math. How long do you think it might take to grade even a 500 word paper properly? Multiply that by 180? And they are not "occasional" Steve. They just aren't. Not if you are a decent teacher. You have to get a certain number of papers to put out a grade every 6 weeks. Again, just do the math.

[The Cysko Kid]

28 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I lived with an English HS teacher Steve. You are talking out of your hat. I said goodbye in August and hello in June. Every waking hour is spent on schoolwork related stuff, including grading papers thoroughly while eating breakfast, through those lunch hours and "study halls" and all evenings and all weekend long from morning until late at night. Her last year she had 6 classes with 30 in each. Do the math. And have you ever even accurately graded an English paper turned in by a HS student?  They are an absolute mess and only get better if you grade them thoroughly every time you grade them for each individual student.

She had no student assistant and you don't do English with multiple choice/T-F. You have no idea what you are talking about. I do. I watched her do it well over 30 years. It was nice to be married for other than just summers after she retired. Oh, almost forgot. She never let up during T-day week, Xmas "vacation" or Spring break either. Those are a myth for students only. I can't ever remember even visiting family during any of those where she wasn't carting papers along. 

More math. How long do you think it might take to grade even a 500 word paper properly? Multiply that by 180? And they are not "occasional" Steve. They just aren't. Not if you are a decent teacher. You have to get a certain number of papers to put out a grade every 6 weeks. Again, just do the math.

I'm tired of hearing about how hard teachers jobs are. Today was the second day this week my kids school was delayed and now it was actually cancelled. 

 

If you're in Northeast Ohio look out your damn window right now and tell me why school had to be cancelled.

[Bob806]

10 minutes ago, The Cysko Kid said:

I'm tired of hearing about how hard teachers jobs are. Today was the second day this week my kids school was delayed and now it was actually cancelled. 

 

If you're in Northeast Ohio look out your damn window right now and tell me why school had to be cancelled.

It's not about the teachers in that case, it's about the transportation (school buses). I don't agree with it (canceling) either, but I imagine somebody sued somebody (or a school district), in somewhere America after a school bus accident, and it's become a liability headache for every district.