Great Quarterback Rivalries

[The Gipper]

Tonight's game features the one loss Rams vs. the one loss Chiefs.    In a discussion I was listening to on TV this morning, someone  (can't remember who)   mentioned that this matchup,    which features  Jared Goff vs. Patrick Mahomes  could be the next  Tom Brady/Peyton Manning  QB rivalry.

I disagree for a couple of reasons, though not to say that both QB won't be good in the future,  its just that they play in different conferences.  Brady and Manning both played in the AFC.  They practically played each other twice a year:  once in regular season, once in playoffs.   Goff/Mahomes will play only once every 4 years....and would only matchup in the postseason if both teams made it to the Super Bowl. 

No....as I see it, the next potential great QB rivalry  could in fact be Mahomes vs.  Mayfield.  If these guys take their teams where we think they can this could be the big kahuna of QB rivalries for the next 10-12 years.

So, here is my question:   Which QB rivalry could be the next big thing since Peyton/Brady?  

Could it be Mayfield/Mahomes?

Could it be  Mayfield vs.  the Mike Vick like Lamar Jackson?

What about an AFC East rivalry between Darnold and Allen?

Would Goff and Wentz be in the mix?  Or, what about Prescott/Wentz?

Here is one that I think could blossom as soon as the rest of this year:    Watson vs. Luck  (now that it seems Luck is back healthy)

Russell Wilson vs. Goff could become a big thing. 

I thought that Cam Newton vs.  either Matt Ryan or Jameis Winston could be a major thing.....but not so much now.

Any matchup that I left out?   Which do you think will be the new big QB rivalry?

[mjp28]

I've always liked Brady v Roethisberger (by results) but Mayfield v Mahomes might be interesting as time goes by. Amazing too how many great quarterbacks met very few times head-to-head.

[The Gipper]

Note on this......I understand that I left out "the Old Men"  in this future rivalry discussion.  Brees/BR/Brady/Rodgers (though Rodgers/Wilson could have a few good years left) Rivers etc.     I was looking at the next 10-12 years, not the next 1 or 2.

But, in that respect......let's look at the great QB rivalries of the past:

Brady vs. Manning of course

Terry Bradshaw vs.  Roger Staubach is in there....at least for a couple of shootout Super Bowls.

Bart Starr vs. Johnny Unitas....banged heads 16 times......with an 8-8 record.

Jim Kelly vs. Dan Marino.....both played in the same division

Kelly/Marino/Elway.....the  AFC  1983 boys

Elway vs. Bernie Kosar.....3 times matched up in AFC title game.

Steve Young vs. Troy Aikman...these guys met 3 times in the NFC title game.

Terry Bradshaw and  Kenny Stabler probably had a more fierce rivalry than did Bradshaw/Staubach..because they always banged heads in the playoffs.

You could throw in the 2004 boys:   Eli vs. Rivers vs. BR  ....but those guys always had to butt heads with Brady....who was all of theirs real rival.

For a bit, Flacco vs. BR was a good rivalry...perhaps still is.

Like Stabler/Bradshaw,   the better  intraconference rivalry may have been Staubach vs. Tarkenton....always meeting up in the playoffs.

And going back:   Otto Graham and  Bobby Layne met 3-4 times in NFL title games....and before that it was Sid Luckman vs. Sammy Baugh.

Joe Montana's biggest nemesis may in fact have been  Phil Simms

Any others?

 

 

[Ghoolie]

Bubby Brister versus Mike Pagel was a good one.

[hoorta]

Since you brought it up Gipper. I got a bad feeling about this. Shades of Cleveland Ghosts of the past. My POV is Mahomes is looking more and more like a young John Elway. Or you forget those AFC Championship games where the only thing in the way of Kosar and a Browns Super Bowl trip was the Broncos?  

Or switching sports to the NBA Championship, the Cavs of Daugherty, Nance, and Price had this guy from the Bulls standing in the way.....  

Baker will have to elevate to the Drew Brees potential I saw in him when I was on the draft this guy wagon earlier. And he's going to need a lot more offensive firepower before we can go toe to toe with KC.   

[jiggins7919]

7 hours ago, hoorta said:

Since you brought it up Gipper. I got a bad feeling about this. Shades of Cleveland Ghosts of the past. My POV is Mahomes is looking more and more like a young John Elway. Or you forget those AFC Championship games where the only thing in the way of Kosar and a Browns Super Bowl trip was the Broncos?  

Or switching sports to the NBA Championship, the Cavs of Daugherty, Nance, and Price had this guy from the Bulls standing in the way.....  

Baker will have to elevate to the Drew Brees potential I saw in him when I was on the draft this guy wagon earlier. And he's going to need a lot more offensive firepower before we can go toe to toe with KC.   

Some of the throws Goff and Mahomes were making the other night were just insane.  One of Goff's first TD's literally hit the receiver in the chest from about 25 yards away.  The WR had a step or two on the DB, running towards the side of the end zone, and BANG. A perfect out pattern that couldn't be executed any better.  This kind of play is what gets me excited about Baker Mayfield.  Why?  Because plays like that require silly accuracy.  A touch behind?  It's probably picked.  Too much in front?  Incomplete.  Not hard enough?  Picked again.  You get the point, and plays like this were just one of the reasons I wanted to draft Baker.  He, above the other candidates, has the ability to place the ball with NFL accuracy.  

It's funny, statistically, the Bengals have a terrible defense, but for some reason I don't see it that way.  Perhaps it's because they've severely owned us since 2014, and I struggle to think of a close game in the past few years.  Although it's no surprise, our offense has scored the most points against the poorer defenses in the league, and if Cincy's defense is as bad as their stats say it is, we might just come out on top.  Anyone know if AJ Green is playing?

[mjp28]

37 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

Some of the throws Goff and Mahomes were making the other night were just insane.  One of Goff's first TD's literally hit the receiver in the chest from about 25 yards away.  The WR had a step or two on the DB, running towards the side of the end zone, and BANG. A perfect out pattern that couldn't be executed any better.  This kind of play is what gets me excited about Baker Mayfield.  Why?  Because plays like that require silly accuracy.  A touch behind?  It's probably picked.  Too much in front?  Incomplete.  Not hard enough?  Picked again.  You get the point, and plays like this were just one of the reasons I wanted to draft Baker.  He, above the other candidates, has the ability to place the ball with NFL accuracy........

Yeah like "are these guys are really that young"? Wow, wow, wow.......

Those were not the hit one miss 6 throws. Amazing. And I put Goff ahead of Rodgers on my one FL team. 

[TexasAg1969]

jiggins-report this morning is that Green has an excellent chance of playing this Sunday.

[The Gipper]

9 hours ago, hoorta said:

Since you brought it up Gipper. I got a bad feeling about this. Shades of Cleveland Ghosts of the past. My POV is Mahomes is looking more and more like a young John Elway. Or you forget those AFC Championship games where the only thing in the way of Kosar and a Browns Super Bowl trip was the Broncos?  

Or switching sports to the NBA Championship, the Cavs of Daugherty, Nance, and Price had this guy from the Bulls standing in the way.....  

Baker will have to elevate to the Drew Brees potential I saw in him when I was on the draft this guy wagon earlier. And he's going to need a lot more offensive firepower before we can go toe to toe with KC.   

But Mahomes pretty well swallowed a cat on Monday night in  crunchtime, throwing 2 int's.  

So, I don't know.  Maybe what we have in Mayfield is the new Joe Montana.....and Mahomes...and these other young QBs are like Marino, Elway,  Anderson, Esiason,  etc.    All chasing him, never catching him.  He beat each of those guys in a Super Bowl.

[The Gipper]

These are the Super Bowls that pitted  Hall of Fame QB vs. Hall of Fame QB......which matchup do you think was the best:

SB19   Montana vs.  Marino

SB 24  Montana vs. Elway

SB1.  Starr vs.  Dawson

SB 14  Stabler vs. Tarkenton

SB 32 Favre vs. Elway

SB 27/28  Aikman vs. Kelly

SB 6  Griese vs. Staubach

SB 9 Bradshaw vs. Tarkenton

SB 3  Namath vs. Unitas  (though Morrall started the game, Unitas finished)

SBs 10/13  Staubach vs. Bradshaw

 

[The Gipper]

These are Super Bowls that pitted potential Hall of Fame matchups.  Potential because they are more recent and some of these guys will  or may get in, but it is just too early.

Which was the best matchup?:

SB44 Brees  vs. Peyton

SB 45 Rodgers vs.  Ben R.

SB 51 Brady vs. Ryan

SB 42/46  Eli vs. Brady

SB 49  Brady vs. Wilson

SB36  Warner (in)  vs. Brady

SB 50  Peyton vs. Cam Newton

SB 39  Brady vs.  McNabb

Warner vs. BR

 

[jiggins7919]

1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said:

jiggins-report this morning is that Green has an excellent chance of playing this Sunday.

Bah....oh well. A good challenge for Denzel Ward! 

Speaking of receivers, does anybody find it odd that we don't throw it to Devalve more often? Man, I really thought he'd be a major factor this year. And Baker completed passes to like 9 different guys last week and Devalve still didn't get a ball. Weird right? I know Devalve was hurt early, but geez. 

[The Gipper]

3 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

Bah....oh well. A good challenge for Denzel Ward! 

Speaking of receivers, does anybody find it odd that we don't throw it to Devalve more often? Man, I really thought he'd be a major factor this year. And Baker completed passes to like 9 different guys last week and Devalve still didn't get a ball. Weird right? I know Devalve was hurt early, but geez. 

We were not speaking of receivers in this thread, we were speaking about QB rivalries.

[The Gipper]

There were actually quite a number of  HOF QB Championship game matchups prior to the onset of the Super Bowl.   Here they are:

Sid Luckman vs. Sammy Baugh  (the Peyton v. Brady of its day)

Sammy Baugh  vs.  Bob Waterfield  .....1945...won by Waterfield's Cleveland team

Otto Graham vs. Bob Waterfield....1950

Otto Graham vs.  Norm Van Brocklin

Otto Graham vs. Bobby Layne

Y.A. Tittle vs. Bart Starr

Y.A. Tittle vs. Johnny Unitas

Johnny Unitas vs. Bart Starr

Bart Starr vs. Norm Van Brocklin

 

[Zombo]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

These are the Super Bowls that pitted  Hall of Fame QB vs. Hall of Fame QB......which matchup do you think was the best:

SB19   Montana vs.  Marino

SB 24  Montana vs. Elway

SB1.  Starr vs.  Dawson

SB 14  Stabler vs. Tarkenton

SB 32 Favre vs. Elway

SB 27/28  Aikman vs. Kelly

SB 6  Griese vs. Staubach

SB 9 Bradshaw vs. Tarkenton

SB 3  Namath vs. Unitas  (though Morrall started the game, Unitas finished)

SBs 10/13  Staubach vs. Bradshaw

Montana/Marino felt like a heavyweight fight. Joe already had one ring and was Mr. Efficient ... jab. jab, jab ... never made a mistake. Don was the young brash power puncher who was knocking everyone out in the first round.

Clearly two best QBs, 2 best offenses, 2 great coaches. 15-1 versus 14-2.

Most folks thought Danny Boy was going to knock out Smoking Joe ...

But in the end, it is a team game, and SF had the superior defense and a superior running game (Craig) and Joe was flawless and they won handily.

But a lot of hype leading up to that one ...

Zombo

 

[mjp28]

Great era to be a football fan. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

These are the Super Bowls that pitted  Hall of Fame QB vs. Hall of Fame QB......which matchup do you think was the best:

SB19   Montana vs.  Marino

SB 24  Montana vs. Elway

SB1.  Starr vs.  Dawson

SB 14  Stabler vs. Tarkenton

SB 32 Favre vs. Elway

SB 27/28  Aikman vs. Kelly

SB 6  Griese vs. Staubach

SB 9 Bradshaw vs. Tarkenton

SB 3  Namath vs. Unitas  (though Morrall started the game, Unitas finished)

SBs 10/13  Staubach vs. Bradshaw

 

Of these, the most competitive games between them were the two  Bradshaw/Staubach matchups.  Both  4 point games that went down to the wire.

Elway vs. Favre also competitive...one score game....Elway's helicopter move.  Some of the others ended up being pretty much blowout games.

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

These are Super Bowls that pitted potential Hall of Fame matchups.  Potential because they are more recent and some of these guys will  or may get in, but it is just too early.

Which was the best matchup?:

SB44 Brees  vs. Peyton

SB 45 Rodgers vs.  Ben R.

SB 51 Brady vs. Ryan

SB 42/46  Eli vs. Brady

SB 49  Brady vs. Wilson

SB36  Warner (in)  vs. Brady

SB 50  Peyton vs. Cam Newton

SB 39  Brady vs.  McNabb

Warner vs. BR

 

This era of QB matchups gave us many more hotly contested games than the previous era  (Super Bowl) of my earlier post. Both Brady/Eli games,  Warner v. BR,   Brady v. Wilson, Warner v. Brady.   All games decided in the last minute. Ryan/Brady too...only OT SB.

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

jiggins-report this morning is that Green has an excellent chance of playing this Sunday.

 

2 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

Bah....oh well. A good challenge for Denzel Ward! 

Speaking of receivers, does anybody find it odd that we don't throw it to Devalve more often? Man, I really thought he'd be a major factor this year. And Baker completed passes to like 9 different guys last week and Devalve still didn't get a ball. Weird right? I know Devalve was hurt early, but geez. 

Yeah Gip I know we're talking QBs, but my memory of those Super Bowls is pretty foggy....   

But regarding the Bengals, Green dressed for the Ravens game, and was on the sideline, so little surprise he's likely to play Sunday. 

PS Ward would be giving up a lot of height to the 6'4" Green, so don't be surprised at all if the Browns use the same tactic they used against Julio Jones, double him with taller defensive backs...  

[The Gipper]

30 minutes ago, hoorta said:

 

Yeah Gip I know we're talking QBs, but my memory of those Super Bowls is pretty foggy....   

One word:  Prevagen

 

 

[The Gipper]

What is, perhaps the Super Bowl that matched up the two "worst" QBs?

Brad Johnson/Rich Gannon    (Bucs vs Raiders)

Trent Dilfer/Kerry Collins  (Ravens vs. Giants)

Jim Plunkett vs. Ron Jaworski  (Raiders vs. Eagles)

Jim McMahon vs. Tony Eason  (Bears vs. Pats)

My opinion is that likely the worst two QBs to ever take a team to the Super Bowl were David Woodley and Rex Grossman.

Fair to say?

[Bob806]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

What is, perhaps the Super Bowl that matched up the two "worst" QBs?

Jim Plunkett vs. Ron Jaworski  (Raiders vs. Eagles)

No way Jose. Jim Plunkett was a winner, and Jaworski wasn't a slouch.  That should have been Sipe vs Jaworski, but....

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Bob806 said:

No way Jose. Jim Plunkett was a winner, and Jaworski wasn't a slouch.  That should have been Sipe vs Jaworski, but....

So what DO you consider the worst QB matchup to ever take place in a Super Bowl?  the following are the ONLY SB matchups where neither of the QBs have made the HOF..(or did not include the likes of  Peyton, Brady, BR, Rodgers,  Brees..future HOFers)

Brad Johnson/Rich Gannon    (Bucs vs Raiders)

Trent Dilfer/Kerry Collins  (Ravens vs. Giants)

Jim Plunkett vs. Ron Jaworski  (Raiders vs. Eagles)

Jim McMahon vs. Tony Eason  (Bears vs. Pats)

Joe Theisman vs. David Woodley (Redskins/Dolphins)

Joe Theisman vs. Jim Plunkett (Redskins/Raiders)

Joe Flacco vs. Colin Kaepernick  (Ravens/49ers)

so...what was the worst QB matchup?

 

[mjp28]

4 hours ago, Bob806 said:

No way Jose. Jim Plunkett was a winner, and Jaworski wasn't a slouch.  That should have been Sipe vs Jaworski, but....

Jaws was a good QB he was a freshman when I was a Sophomore at YSU he was part of the early turnaround of YSU football.

YSU was a D-II school back then but was a rare D-II invite to the Senior Bowl and was named the game MVP and impressed the NFL scouts  Just FYI.

[Bob806]

4 hours ago, The Gipper said:

So what DO you consider the worst QB matchup to ever take place in a Super Bowl?  the following are the ONLY SB matchups where neither of the QBs have made the HOF..(or did not include the likes of  Peyton, Brady, BR, Rodgers,  Brees..future HOFers)

Brad Johnson/Rich Gannon    (Bucs vs Raiders)

Trent Dilfer/Kerry Collins  (Ravens vs. Giants)

Jim Plunkett vs. Ron Jaworski  (Raiders vs. Eagles)

Jim McMahon vs. Tony Eason  (Bears vs. Pats)

Joe Theisman vs. David Woodley (Redskins/Dolphins)

Joe Theisman vs. Jim Plunkett (Redskins/Raiders)

Joe Flacco vs. Colin Kaepernick  (Ravens/49ers)

so...what was the worst QB matchup?

 

Well if I had to pick one, I guess I'd say McMahon vs Eason. I happened to like McMahon, but obviously the Bears defense was the show. IMHO, the 1985 Bears was the best defense ever (for a single season). 

Tony Eason got hot at the right time, and that Patriots team was the 1st ever to win 3 road playoff games if I recall. 

The Theismann-Woodley matchup was the strike-shortened season, but that's a close 2nd I suppose.

Elway vs Doug Williams is honorable mention, but not on your list. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Bob806 said:

Well if I had to pick one, I guess I'd say McMahon vs Eason. I happened to like McMahon, but obviously the Bears defense was the show. IMHO, the 1985 Bears was the best defense ever (for a single season). 

Tony Eason got hot at the right time, and that Patriots team was the 1st ever to win 3 road playoff games if I recall. 

The Theismann-Woodley matchup was the strike-shortened season, but that's a close 2nd I suppose.

Elway vs Doug Williams is honorable mention, but not on your list. 

Elway  maybe one of the top 5 to 7 quarterbacks of all time so no that wouldn’t be one of the choices 

[Bob806]

9 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Elway  maybe one of the top 5 to 7 quarterbacks of all time so no that wouldn’t be one of the choices 

Hey now, you scolded me for not giving an opinion, now I give one, and it's wrong?

Remember, as great as Elway was, his SB wins came with Terrell Davis and a great rushing attack. Without that, they were AFC Kings and in Marty's head. 

Additionally, Doug Williams wasn't a top-tier guy, he just happened to have a great playoff run with the Redskins. 

[The Gipper]

6 hours ago, Bob806 said:

Hey now, you scolded me for not giving an opinion, now I give one, and it's wrong?

Remember, as great as Elway was, his SB wins came with Terrell Davis and a great rushing attack. Without that, they were AFC Kings and in Marty's head. 

Additionally, Doug Williams wasn't a top-tier guy, he just happened to have a great playoff run with the Redskins. 

I was talking about the combination of both qbs  and yes if your opinion is that Elway was not on the best quarterbacks of all time then yes your opinion is objectively wrong....as much as it pains me to say so 

[Bob806]

21 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I was talking about the combination of both qbs  and yes if your opinion is that Elway was not on the best quarterbacks of all time then yes your opinion is objectively wrong....as much as it pains me to say so 

Well according the the QB rating gobbeldy- gook (which I'm not really a fan of) they had Elway at 60th all time through 2014. Elway is obviously way better than 60th on the eye test, and I'd put him in my top 10.

BUT....I maintain Elway vs Williams wasn't a good combo match-up in the Super Bowl. 

 https://www.profootballhof.com/all-time-passer-rating-2014/

[The Gipper]

6 minutes ago, Bob806 said:

Well according the the QB rating gobbeldy- gook (which I'm not really a fan of) they had Elway at 60th all time through 2014. Elway is obviously way better than 60th on the eye test, and I'd put him in my top 10.

BUT....I maintain Elway vs Williams wasn't a good combo match-up in the Super Bowl. 

 https://www.profootballhof.com/all-time-passer-rating-2014/

Passer rating IS a bogus  statistic.  I mean that link you gave would have Chad Pennington, Jeff Garcia, David Garrard and Trent Green in the top 20 QBs all time.

And Starrr, Tarkenton, Unitas, Graham, Elway, Bradshaw...and others wouldn't even be in the Top 50.

And while Elway/Williams may not be on the top of the heap as far as SB starting QBs go.....it is far, far from the worst.  If you divided all SB games into Quartiles...it would probably be in the third quartile somewhere.