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VaporTrail

The Rise and Fall of Affirmative Action - The New Yorker

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I understand the reason for wanting affirmative action, but to fight centuries of institutionalized racism with institutionalized racism seems butt backwards to me. 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/15/the-rise-and-fall-of-affirmative-action

It's a long article, but here's a quote in there that I thought was funny.

Quote

I asked Chen and He if they had ever witnessed this “laziness” for themselves. They were quiet for a moment. Then Chen mentioned how, in 2014, Jesse Jackson had come to Silicon Valley and, in Chen’s words, said, “Oh, too many Asians.” (In a speech on the tech industry’s lack of diversity, Jackson floated the idea of eliminating H1B visas.) So, Chen and He explained, companies invested in diversity. He didn’t have much firsthand experience with the results of this effort, but he felt that it went “against the capitalist system.” “The N.B.A.,” Chen continued. “How many Asians there? If you want to do diversity, how about doing diversity in the N.B.A.? I think the show would be not good.”

And here's how it gets applied in the real world. To briefly explain the graphs - x axis is MCAT (standardized test) score, y-axis is percent who matriculate into medical school. See how the graph shifts left and right based on race.

Black_Applicants.png?width=883&height=464

Asian_applicants.png?width=867&height=463

So instead of holding people who are underrepresented in medicine to the same standard, they lower the standards based on the color of their skin. The AAMC stopped publishing this data in 2013. Imagine that. I hope this guy's case in the New Yorker article is one of the first that the new SCOTUS sees.

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This is not cowpoop, but I knew a few black women who would only date Asians or white guys.  Reason?  They got credit.  They got a job.  They got a car, etc.

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4 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

This is not cowpoop, but I knew a few black women who would only date Asians or white guys.  Reason?  They got credit.  They got a job.  They got a car, etc.

And probably were not raised in a culture where it's acceptable to have multiple kids with multiple women and take responsibility for none. Thanks FDR. Or maybe LBJ.

WSS

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I could see Affirmative Action based more on financial status growing up, not race. That cuts more to the root of the disadvantages.

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23 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

I could see Affirmative Action based more on financial status growing up, not race. That cuts more to the root of the disadvantages.

There's already a grant system and financial aid available for poor people. And even though it often goes hand-in-hand poor people do not necessarily have to be underperformers.

WSS

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3 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

There's already a grant system and financial aid available for poor people. And even though it often goes hand-in-hand poor people do not necessarily have to be underperformers.

WSS

They're at a disadvantage and less likely to be a top performer. Less resources. Either at home or at their potentially shitty public school. 

I'm not talking about just purely the financial side. 

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2 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

They're at a disadvantage and less likely to be a top performer. Less resources. Either at home or at their potentially shitty public school. 

I'm not talking about just purely the financial side. 

So you are saying that because of circumstances over the past 17 or 18 years their ability to perform is it a lower level. It might seem like a charitable thing to do to promote that person over one with more ability. But if I choosing a doctor I think I'll go with the latter.

That being said I don't really mind programs to help poor people get into college. But I do think it should be Performance Based not charitable. Growing up poor might put you at a disadvantage and so might a Blow To The Head as a child.

WSS

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40 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

I could see Affirmative Action based more on financial status growing up, not race. That cuts more to the root of the disadvantages.

There's always the United Negro College Fund...but of course, that's not racist. 

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17 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

So you are saying that because of circumstances over the past 17 or 18 years their ability to perform is it a lower level. It might seem like a charitable thing to do to promote that person over one with more ability. But if I choosing a doctor I think I'll go with the latter.

That being said I don't really mind programs to help poor people get into college. But I do think it should be Performance Based not charitable. Growing up poor might put you at a disadvantage and so might a Blow To The Head as a child.

WSS

Of course a Dr is going to have years and years of schooling past a high school sr getting into college. Even if that student was given an advantage in initial admissions they'd still need to perform through a lot more schooling. 

 

I was able to take a bunch of AP classes in high school, even some math through CSU. Schools in crappier areas won't have those courses available. Course rigor is an important part of college admissions. I think that disadvantage should be recognized

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Just now, MLD Woody said:

Of course a Dr is going to have years and years of schooling past a high school sr getting into college. Even if that student was given an advantage in initial admissions they'd still need to perform through a lot more schooling. 

 

I was able to take a bunch of AP classes in high school, even some math through CSU. Schools in crappier areas won't have those courses available. Course rigor is an important part of college admissions. I think that disadvantage should be recognized

As a matter of fact Woodbury if I owned a company that was in need of whatever type of engineering skills you possess I would much prefer to hire you over somebody from East Cleveland who got into an engineering program because he had a shity background. 

Whatever the reason he couldn't measure up Head to Head and the admissions office.

WSS

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On the other hand I'm sure there are professions, like teachers, where attitude is far more important then where you got your degree and what degree you got.

WSS

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7 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

Here's an old pic of some black girl I took to the prom:

 

Screen%2520Shot%25202016-05-08%2520at%252012.11.47%2520PM.png

Did you hit that?

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6 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

Here's an old pic of some black girl I took to the prom:

 

Screen%2520Shot%25202016-05-08%2520at%252012.11.47%2520PM.png

I wonder if you noticed any difference in gas mileage? 

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1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

As a matter of fact Woodbury if I owned a company that was in need of whatever type of engineering skills you possess I would much prefer to hire you over somebody from East Cleveland who got into an engineering program because he had a shity background. 

Whatever the reason he couldn't measure up Head to Head and the admissions office.

WSS

That person would still then need to get through the engineering program though.... that's what I'm getting at. 

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3 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

That person would still then need to get through the engineering program though.... that's what I'm getting at. 

Maybe. Shouldn't they help him out by having a few points to his test scores to?

Not to mention the kid that worked really really hard and school but whose parents were barely middle class that gets bumped out of the program.

 

WSD

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23 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Maybe. Shouldn't they help him out by having a few points to his test scores to?

Not to mention the kid that worked really really hard and school but whose parents were barely middle class that gets bumped out of the program.

 

WSD

No, there is no maybe. They still need to go through the program. They aren't going to get bonus points on tests. That's not how it works. 

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5 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

No, there is no maybe. They still need to go through the program. They aren't going to get bonus points on tests. That's not how it works. 

There's a saying that goes, "C=MD." I'm not necessarily saying that a straight A student will make the best doctor - though they are more likely to specialize. Likewise, a person who barely scrapes by medical school could be the greatest doctor ever. I've met plenty of those kinds of people who I think are going to be great family practice docs. In general, your primary care docs are going to be the ones who didn't do as well in school and on board exams.

On the flip side, in my humble opinion, I was able to tell who some of the diversity admits were. The thought of a few of them being my doctor was terrifying, but I could also say that about some of my white classmates.

I graduated undergrad with a degree in physics. If I chose to take the Physics GRE, I'd have probably scored in <10th percentile. I wouldn't be doing anyone any good as a lab physicist. Though a degree makes someone legally qualified, it doesn't necessarily follow that they'll be any good at it.

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I remember being one of many sitting to take the test to get into the Post Office back in the early eighties.

They would test about 50 people at a time.

The test would begin with the proctor telling everyone the following:

1) If you are a non-Caucasian, check box * and you’ll receive 5 points.

2) If you are a female, check box * and you’ll receive 5 points.

3) If you are handicapped, check box * and you’ll receive 5 points.

4) If you are a veteran, check box * and you’ll receive 5 points.

It was around that time that several guys...along with myself got up and left the room.

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I took the Postal exam in 1974.  Passed it with a 5 point Vet preference. Got offered a temp job (which I think all postal employees start out as) but refused.  I decided to go into the Navy and see the world.  And I'm glad I did.  Went thru OSVET (Other Service Veteran) School at Great Lakes (because of my time in the Army).  

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24 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

No, there is no maybe. They still need to go through the program. They aren't going to get bonus points on tests. That's not how it works. 

While I think that aptitude is easily as important as grades I have to imagine I'd still rather have the guy in the top 1% then the guy that struggles through with a c minus average.

WSS

 

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10 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

I took the Postal exam in 1974.  Passed it with a 5 point Vet preference. Got offered a temp job (which I think all postal employees start out as) but refused.  I decided to go into the Navy and see the world.  And I'm glad I did.  Went thru OSVET (Other Service Veteran) School at Great Lakes (because of my time in the Army).  

Of all the 5 point preferences, I really didn’t mind the vets getting pushed to the front of the line...they deserve it.

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32 minutes ago, VaporTrail said:

There's a saying that goes, "C=MD." I'm not necessarily saying that a straight A student will make the best doctor - though they are more likely to specialize. Likewise, a person who barely scrapes by medical school could be the greatest doctor ever. I've met plenty of those kinds of people who I think are going to be great family practice docs. In general, your primary care docs are going to be the ones who didn't do as well in school and on board exams.

On the flip side, in my humble opinion, I was able to tell who some of the diversity admits were. The thought of a few of them being my doctor was terrifying, but I could also say that about some of my white classmates.

I graduated undergrad with a degree in physics. If I chose to take the Physics GRE, I'd have probably scored in <10th percentile. I wouldn't be doing anyone any good as a lab physicist. Though a degree makes someone legally qualified, it doesn't necessarily follow that they'll be any good at it.

Rights. C's get degrees.

But those diversity admits aren't getting bonus points on tests. They earn their scores like everyone else. Spoiled white rich kid or diversity admit. 

Same thing for engineering, except that included females in general for the diversity pool. There were some you wondered how they got in. But they received no special treatment.

Well... the girls kinda did. Because if you're in a 10 to 1 ratio class and cute you can get whatever you need from your classmates haha.

 

Oh... And I need to start looking into taking the GRE or GMAT too. Required for some programs I'm looking at. I made the mistake in high school not knowing what an SAT Subject Test was so I hope to not repeat that mistake haha

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20 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

While I think that aptitude is easily as important as grades I have to imagine I'd still rather have the guy in the top 1% then the guy that struggles through with a c minus average.

WSS

 

I've worked career fairs at big schools for big companies and I can tell you don't always want that top 1% guy. There's actually a point where higher grades start making worse candidates, on average, in my experience. 

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3 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

I've worked career fairs at big schools for big companies and I can tell you don't always want that top 1% guy. There's actually a point where higher grades start making worse candidates, on average, in my experience. 

Kind of takes some of the Shine off of going to a highly rated School. 

WSS

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27 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Rights. C's get degrees.

But those diversity admits aren't getting bonus points on tests. They earn their scores like everyone else. Spoiled white rich kid or diversity admit. 

Same thing for engineering, except that included females in general for the diversity pool. There were some you wondered how they got in. But they received no special treatment.

Well... the girls kinda did. Because if you're in a 10 to 1 ratio class and cute you can get whatever you need from your classmates haha.

 

Oh... And I need to start looking into taking the GRE or GMAT too. Required for some programs I'm looking at. I made the mistake in high school not knowing what an SAT Subject Test was so I hope to not repeat that mistake haha

For medicine, passing the boards, in my humble opinion, does not mean much. Here are the pass rates. Getting into medical school is more difficult than passing medical school. The affirmative action nonsense takes the most difficult part of medical school and makes it harder if you're white or asian, and makes it easier if you are black or hispanic.

image.thumb.png.22fd0ecc74c4cef22c2685d6df7f7731.png

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6 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Kind of takes some of the Shine off of going to a highly rated School. 

WSS

Its not the school, it's the student. I've worked Michigan, OSU, Purdue, Akron and a satellite Purdue school. On average, you can still tell the difference among candidate pools. 

At least withing engineering, the higher the GPA the worst the soft skills get, on average. In my experience.

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6 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Is it Affirmative Action to provide preferential treatment to vets?

I'd argue it's apples and oranges. AA places people on tiers because of the way they were born, whereas a preference for veterans is based off accomplishment/merit.

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