The official Terry Pluto thread

[TexasAg1969]

Funny how everyone hyped us into some kind of contender with one exception. Guys on "Moving the Chains" NFL Radio way back before the season began were saying to lay off the gas pedal. They agreed it was very rare for any team to make the giant leap from loser to contender in one season. If you look at what we went in with this OL, an untried defense and an inexperienced HC, then realistically they were right.  6-10 or 7-9 was more the in between step. Fix it for next year and move on.

[mjp28]

5 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Funny how everyone hyped us into some kind of contender with one exception. Guys on "Moving the Chains" NFL Radio way back before the season began were saying to lay off the gas pedal. They agreed it was very rare for any team to make the giant leap from loser to contender in one season. If you look at what we went in with this OL, an untried defense and an inexperienced HC, then realistically they were right.  6-10 or 7-9 was more the in between step. Fix it for next year and move on.

The only thing that didn't jive with their prognostication was that in 2018 they were 7-8-1 with a rookie quarterback. 9, 10, 11+ wins was a very logical and attainable goal.

They just blew it !

[D Bone]

On 12/17/2019 at 10:20 AM, Tour2ma said:

Et tu, Terry??? There is a "flicker"... or at least half a flicker.

Why are writers... even our own... writing us off before it's a fact?

A gleam rather than a flicker would be awesome right about now. 

[Orion]

On 12/17/2019 at 1:20 PM, Tour2ma said:

Why are writers... even our own... writing us off before it's a fact?

Guessing because our defense is a sieve.  And our offense is a far cry from a 'scoring machine'.  And then there's Freddie who'll play anybody except Higgns & Njoku.  There's two guys right there that many of us expected to have big seasons with OBJ & Landry drawing the coverage away from them.  Nope, they can't find the field.  One of 'em a 1st round pick.   -  At the end of the season ownership will probably want to know why a promising 1st round pick TE wasn't utilized in a losing record season.  

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, D Bone said:

A gleam rather than a flicker would be awesome right about now. 

No matter how many times I see the Shottenheimer "There's a gleam men..." video, I still have no idea what he's talking about. 😃

[The Gipper]

59 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

No matter how many times I see the Shottenheimer "There's a gleam men..." video, I still have no idea what he's talking about. 😃

Really?   Here is the gleam he was talking about:

[Westside Steve]

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12/cleveland-browns-halftime-scribbles-defense-falls-apart-at-end-of-half.html

A little bit dated but...

WSS

[Westside Steve]

https://923thefan.radio.com/articles/terry-pluto-its-too-early-to-give-up-on-baker

 

It's way too early to have second thoughts on Baker. As far as Freddy? As long as we're going to stay in one and done mode forever we will stay in the middle or bottom of the AFC North till the end of time. I don't care if Bill Parcells comes out of retirement. I don't care if Vince Lombardi comes back from the fucking dead. That we really do need an improvement in coaching is a fact. Whoever the coach is will need to be subservient did John Dorsey and I don't see Urban Meyer doing that. Urban Meyer also has history of poor health bad attitude and quarterbacks who fail in the NFL. 

Maybe Mike McCarthy because he knows John Dorsey and would assumedly get along with him. What we don't need is a head coach vs general manager situation again.

WSS

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

https://923thefan.radio.com/articles/terry-pluto-its-too-early-to-give-up-on-baker

 

It's way too early to have second thoughts on Baker. As far as Freddy? As long as we're going to stay in one and done mode forever we will stay in the middle or bottom of the AFC North till the end of time. I don't care if Bill Parcells comes out of retirement. I don't care if Vince Lombardi comes back from the fucking dead. That we really do need an improvement in coaching is a fact. Whoever the coach is will need to be subservient did John Dorsey and I don't see Urban Meyer doing that. Urban Meyer also has history of poor health bad attitude and quarterbacks who fail in the NFL. 

Maybe Mike McCarthy because he knows John Dorsey and would assumedly get along with him. What we don't need is a head coach vs general manager situation again.

WSS

If it is true that the Haslams want Freddie gone and Dorsey doesn't, Dorsey going to bat to keep Kitchens might buy Freddie another season, but if it goes bad again, Dorsey will be on the unemployment line with his head coach.

He's got to know this, and Dorsey better be right about Freddie if he goes against what the Haslams want. 

[Westside Steve]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

If it is true that the Haslams want Freddie gone and Dorsey doesn't, Dorsey going to bat to keep Kitchens might buy Freddie another season, but if it goes bad again, Dorsey will be on the unemployment line with his head coach.

He's got to know this, and Dorsey better be right about Freddie if he goes against what the Haslams want. 

And the foul smell like keep detecting is a forced marriage coming to theaters near you between the general manager and some coach he doesn't want.

And frankly, even admitting how little I know about football and what goes on in a professional locker room headquarters, I get the feeling Jimmy Haslam and his wife are morons. Just a hunch. So was Randy Lerner but he didn't give enough of a shit to meddle in football stuff.

WSS

[Ibleedbrown]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

And the foul smell like keep detecting is a forced marriage coming to theaters near you between the general manager and some coach he doesn't want.

And frankly, even admitting how little I know about football and what goes on in a professional locker room headquarters, I get the feeling Jimmy Haslam and his wife are morons. Just a hunch. So was Randy Lerner but he didn't give enough of a shit to meddle in football stuff.

WSS

If you’re a Pluto reader he pretty much painted the Haslams as such, except more diplomatically. Basically a couple of 1percenters who moved up into that upper echelon of 1 percenters who get to own sports franchises and jumped at the chance, but were pretty green at the whole thing and didn’t know what the hell they were doing or how to go about it. 

He further portrays them as people who want to be successful at it, heart in the right place, put in the time and effort, yadda yadda, but alas, they are learning on the fly and follies have followed.

[Westside Steve]

3 minutes ago, Ibleedbrown said:

If you’re a Pluto reader he pretty much painted the Haslams as such, except more diplomatically. Basically a couple of 1percenters who moved up into that upper echelon of 1 percenters who get to own sports franchises and jumped at the chance, but were pretty green at the whole thing and didn’t know what the hell they were doing or how to go about it. 

You don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows.

🌲

WSS

[jiggins7919]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

If it is true that the Haslams want Freddie gone and Dorsey doesn't, Dorsey going to bat to keep Kitchens might buy Freddie another season, but if it goes bad again, Dorsey will be on the unemployment line with his head coach.

He's got to know this, and Dorsey better be right about Freddie if he goes against what the Haslams want. 

A month ago, I thought maybe Freddie could come back, but now?  There's absolutely NO WAY in my mind that you can bring him back.  I honestly think the last 2:09 in the first half of the Raven's game sealed the deal.  We had a chance to go into the half up 6-0.  I understand being aggressive, so I'm not going to give Freddie crap about trying to score when it was 6-0, but what I can't forgive is the halfback pass on 3rd and 1.  Not when you need to get the clock moving, you MUST get the first down, and you already know the Ravens get the ball in the 2nd half.  Let's suppose Freddie dials up a run on 3rd and 1 and we still don't get it, and we punt.  The Ravens go down and score and we're down 7-6.  At that point you HAVE to lick your wounds and go into the half down 1 point against the hottest team in the league.  That MUST happen.  

It didn't.

Why else is Freddie almost certainly toast?  

1.  The regression of Baker Mayfield.

2.  A total lack of explosive offensive ability.

3.  Perpetual arguments and blow-ups with players.

4.  Choppy offensive playcalling, not getting plays called on time, never having timeouts.

5.  Not scoring points, even against the bad defenses yet having the best RB in the league.

6.  Not having a good feel of when to run versus pass.  No "feel" for the game.

7.  Red Zone nightmares.

[OldBrownsFan]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

And the foul smell like keep detecting is a forced marriage coming to theaters near you between the general manager and some coach he doesn't want.

And frankly, even admitting how little I know about football and what goes on in a professional locker room headquarters, I get the feeling Jimmy Haslam and his wife are morons. Just a hunch. So was Randy Lerner but he didn't give enough of a shit to meddle in football stuff.

WSS

Haslam was a minority shareholder of the Steelers before becoming owner of the Browns. I wrongly expected better of him because of that background and he has been a big disappointment. Under his ownership we have been a team continually building a foundation and then before we actually build anything we tear down the foundation again. 

[Ibleedbrown]

2 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

Haslam was a minority shareholder of the Steelers before becoming owner of the Browns. I wrongly expected better of him because of that background and he has been a big disappointment. Under his ownership we have been a team continually building a foundation and then before we actually build anything we tear down the foundation again. 

IMO the Haslams are the problem here. They ARE the foundation, the one consistent for the last several years, and they are a panicky couple who wilts when hardship ensues, and hardship inevitably ensues when you change coaches and GMs at the pace they’ve been going at. 

They won’t stick to a plan. Good plan? Bad plan? We never get the chance to find out.

Going into the Sashi Brown era, they KNEW it was going to be a few years of painful and awful sucking. It’s detailed in Pluto’s book. There were “are you SURE you wanna do this?” conversations. “Yeah yeah, we’re committed...” was the response.

And it was as bad as we’ve seen it. Damn those were some awful years. And on the cusp of a turnaround, they hit the nuke button, so our current team is one guy’s fruits of another guy’s labors, and we don’t really get the chance to see what one guy’s vision looks like. 

It’s a clusterfuck of sorts, and it’s been that way since we came back to the league. 

I’m married to this team, no matter the form it takes. I truly bleed Brown and l have zero shame in that. It’s not decision makers l lay my alliance to but a culture and a city that l want so badly to know success. 

This team badly needs a plan, a good plan, and the balls to stick to it.

[mjp28]

Terry Pluto today 5 am.  https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12/cleveland-browns-owe-their-fans-a-thoughtful-christmas-present.html

Cleveland Browns GM John Dorsey (L) and owner Jimmy Haslam have to make some significant changes for next season. Photo by John Kuntz / cleveland.com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Near the end of last Sunday’s Browns game, I looked at the mostly empty FirstEnergy Stadium.

I didn’t fault the fans for leaving early during the Browns 31-15 loss to Baltimore. It was the final home game of the season. It dropped their record to 6-9.

Making it worse, many in the stands were feeling deflated for good reason.

The team let them down. The entire organization let them down....... CONTINUED IN THE LINK.......

 

[crunchy]

On 12/19/2019 at 1:47 PM, mjp28 said:

The only thing that didn't jive with their prognostication was that in 2018 they were 7-8-1 with a rookie quarterback. 9, 10, 11+ wins was a very logical and attainable goal.

They just blew it !

But it really wasn't a logical and attainable goal. We had one of the hardest schedules in the league, if not the toughest, with a rookie head coach and a bunch of new players in key positions. And against the top teams there's not time to gel and no margin for coaching mistakes. If we have Buffalo's schedule we're a playoff team. 

We played:

Titans: 8-7

Jets: 6-9

Rams: 8-7

Ravens x2: 13-2

49ers: 12-3

Seahawks: 11-4

Patriots: 12-3

Broncos: 6-9

Bills: 10-5

Steelers x2: 8-7

Dolphins: 4-11

Bengals x2: 1-14

Cardinals: 5-9-1

I don't see 9+ wins there for a rookie coach with a new core. We only played 6 games against teams with a losing record and we played 9 games against teams that are in the playoffs or have a good chance with one game left. 

Now look at the Bills schedule:

Jets x2: 6-9

Giants: 4-11

Bengals: 1-14

Patriots x2: 12-3

Titans: 8-7

Dolphins x2: 4-11

Eagles: 8-7

Washington: 3-12

Browns: 6-9

Broncos: 6-9

Cowboys: 7-8

Ravens: 13-2

Steelers: 8-7

They played 10 games against teams with a losing record, including 4 out of the 5 worst teams in the league. They played against 7 teams with a chance at the playoffs, but the Cowboys don't have a winning record and the Eagles only do because they're in the NFC east. I see 9+ wins for the Browns against these teams. 

The Browns left wins on the table, for sure, but their schedule did them no favours. They played 6 games against teams with double digit wins and beat two of them, including giving the Ravens their only beatdown of the season. People expected too much too quick. With another offseason together OBJ and Baker will get in sync and we'll get Myles back. These things take time. They're a far cry from winning one game in two seasons two years ago

 

[mjp28]

1 hour ago, crunchy said:

......They played 10 games against teams with a losing record, including 4 out of the 5 worst teams in the league. They played against 7 teams with a chance at the playoffs, but the Cowboys don't have a winning record and the Eagles only do because they're in the NFC east. I see 9+ wins for the Browns against these teams. 

The Browns left wins on the table, for sure, but their schedule did them no favours. They played 6 games against teams with double digit wins and beat two of them, including giving the Ravens their only beatdown of the season. People expected too much too quick. With another offseason together OBJ and Baker will get in sync and we'll get Myles back. These things take time. They're a far cry from winning one game in two seasons two years ago

 

Agreed that the BROWNS played a tough schedule largely due to:

1. Baltimore had the best record in the AFC and they played them x2.

2. They gave several games away which boosts the other teams records -and- they coulda, shoulda, woulda had 7, 8 maybe 9 wins right now and we would be debating playoff seeding and not how the BROWNS took a dump on their own 2019 season.

3. "Dumb-dumb" Garrett an honorary mention for helping screw up the season, from all pro to "NFL screw up of the decade". Who knows how many games they might have won with him.  7-9 or 6-10 is cast in concrete now.  Can't even beat a 7-8-1 team with a rookie quarterback and fewer top guns.  Pitiful.

Maybe they get this award?

[mjp28]

Oh the winning record vs losing record thing, can be misleading.

We played, actually THEY played not we, it was the BROWNS players and coaches who are 6-9. If they could have flipped these 3 games 

Titans: 8-7....7-8,.  Rams....8-7....7-8 and of course   Steelers x2: 8-7....7-8.

Instead of 3 winning teams you coulda, shoulda, woulda had 3 losing seasons. And all were possible except maybe TEN because the BROWNS were so woefully unprepared.

Plus look at SEA, DEN, AZ all were winnable games.  Start spinning those games, fun with numbers !   

[mjp28]

And the po' BROWNS just how many games counting the next one were they the favorites? Would you believe 10 that's right ,. They were 10-5-1 as favorites.... before the game.

See for yourself.   https://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/teams/team-page.cfm/team/browns

2019 TEAM SCHEDULE & RESULTS

Date Opponent Closing Line Total Result ATS Sep 8 Tennessee Titans   -5.5 45.5 Lost  13 - 43   Loss  /  Over   Sep 16 @ New York Jets   -6.5 45 Won  23 - 3   Win  /  Under   Sep 22 Los Angeles Rams   4.5 48.5 Lost  13 - 20   Loss  /  Under   Sep 29 @ Baltimore Ravens   7 47.5 Won  40 - 25   Win  /  Over   Oct 7 @ San Francisco 49ers   5 48 Lost  3 - 31   Loss  /  Under   Oct 13 Seattle Seahawks   PK 45.5 Lost  28 - 32   Loss  /  Over   Oct 27 @ New England Patriots   10 43 Lost  13 - 27   Loss  /  Under   Nov 3 @ Denver Broncos   -4 39 Lost  19 - 24   Loss  /  Over   Nov 10 Buffalo Bills   -3 42 Won  19 - 16   Push  /  Under   Nov 14 Pittsburgh Steelers   -3 41.5 Won  21 - 7   Win  /  Under   Nov 24 Miami Dolphins   -10.5 46 Won  41 - 24   Win  /  Over   Dec 1 @ Pittsburgh Steelers   -1 40 Lost  13 - 20   Loss  /  Under   Dec 8 Cincinnati Bengals   -6.5 43.5 Won  27 - 19   Win  /  Over   Dec 15 @ Arizona Cardinals   -3 49 Lost  24 - 38   Loss  /  Over   Dec 22 Baltimore Ravens   10 49 Lost  15 - 31   Loss  /  Under   Dec 29 @ Cincinnati Bengals       1:00 PM

[crunchy]

On 12/25/2019 at 9:32 PM, mjp28 said:

And the po' BROWNS just how many games counting the next one were they the favorites? Would you believe 10 that's right ,. They were 10-5-1 as favorites.... before the game.

See for yourself.   https://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/teams/team-page.cfm/team/browns

2019 TEAM SCHEDULE & RESULTS

Date Opponent Closing Line Total Result ATS Sep 8 Tennessee Titans   -5.5 45.5 Lost  13 - 43   Loss  /  Over   Sep 16 @ New York Jets   -6.5 45 Won  23 - 3   Win  /  Under   Sep 22 Los Angeles Rams   4.5 48.5 Lost  13 - 20   Loss  /  Under   Sep 29 @ Baltimore Ravens   7 47.5 Won  40 - 25   Win  /  Over   Oct 7 @ San Francisco 49ers   5 48 Lost  3 - 31   Loss  /  Under   Oct 13 Seattle Seahawks   PK 45.5 Lost  28 - 32   Loss  /  Over   Oct 27 @ New England Patriots   10 43 Lost  13 - 27   Loss  /  Under   Nov 3 @ Denver Broncos   -4 39 Lost  19 - 24   Loss  /  Over   Nov 10 Buffalo Bills   -3 42 Won  19 - 16   Push  /  Under   Nov 14 Pittsburgh Steelers   -3 41.5 Won  21 - 7   Win  /  Under   Nov 24 Miami Dolphins   -10.5 46 Won  41 - 24   Win  /  Over   Dec 1 @ Pittsburgh Steelers   -1 40 Lost  13 - 20   Loss  /  Under   Dec 8 Cincinnati Bengals   -6.5 43.5 Won  27 - 19   Win  /  Over   Dec 15 @ Arizona Cardinals   -3 49 Lost  24 - 38   Loss  /  Over   Dec 22 Baltimore Ravens   10 49 Lost  15 - 31   Loss  /  Under   Dec 29 @ Cincinnati Bengals       1:00 PM

Betting favorites reflect public perception, not how good the teams actually are. Bookies are trying to make money and they don't do that by giving them the real odds

[mjp28]

7 minutes ago, crunchy said:

Betting favorites reflect public perception, not how good the teams actually are. Bookies are trying to make money and they don't do that by giving them the real odd

But they still are the favorites not underdogs by a 2:1 margin.  

I do know how it works, I've been doing this for just over 50 years now.  

[mjp28]

Hey Terry   https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12/hey-terry-will-cleveland-browns-preseason-hype-cause-knee-jerk-decisions-in-off-season.html

Hey Terry: Will Cleveland Browns preseason hype cause knee-jerk decisions in off season?

Today 5:31 AM

[crunchy]

2 hours ago, mjp28 said:

But they still are the favorites not underdogs by a 2:1 margin.  

I do know how it works, I've been doing this for just over 50 years now.  

Haha, fair enough 🙃

[Westside Steve]

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12/will-the-cleveland-browns-fire-freddie-kitchens-heres-my-guess.html

I'm on the fence.

WSS

[browns52]

On 12/19/2019 at 9:13 AM, TexasAg1969 said:

Funny how everyone hyped us into some kind of contender with one exception. Guys on "Moving the Chains" NFL Radio way back before the season began were saying to lay off the gas pedal. They agreed it was very rare for any team to make the giant leap from loser to contender in one season. If you look at what we went in with this OL, an untried defense and an inexperienced HC, then realistically they were right.  6-10 or 7-9 was more the in between step. Fix it for next year and move on.

thats a regression....you are wrong about that....they went 7-8-1 and this yr we had better talent....your fucking gm screwed the pooch by making slobass kitchens the hc....they should have been at least 9-7....that my friend would have been realistic for this yr...not what you say...

[mjp28]

......"If I had to bet, it would be on the team making a coaching change within a few days after Sunday’s season finale in Cincinnati.

My sense is the Browns know the promotion of Kitchens from offensive coordinator to head coach was a mistake"......

If you put that up to a popular vote Freddie would probably be gone.  But it's not up to a popular vote. Decision time, soon.

[mjp28]

Just after the game.....   https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12/season-finally-over-change-must-be-coming-for-cleveland-browns.html

WHAT’S NEXT?

Now, it’s the season of rumors. Who will be fired?

Coach Freddie Kitchens? Coordinators? The front office?......

[The Gipper]

1 minute ago, mjp28 said:

Just after the game.....   https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12/season-finally-over-change-must-be-coming-for-cleveland-browns.html

WHAT’S NEXT?

Now, it’s the season of rumors. Who will be fired?

Coach Freddie Kitchens? Coordinators? The front office?......

seriously?  Where have you been the last hour?

[Tour2ma]

On 12/28/2019 at 7:31 PM, browns52 said:

... shouldyon have been at least 9-7

You act as if the difference between 7-9 and 9-7 is as wide as the Grand Canyon.

It isn't.