Raiders and Chargers moves

[LondonBrown]

I notice the Raiders had more fans at the Chargers “home” game than the Bolts did which is to be expected consider the Raiders are an LA team  

I guess it’s money related but why didn’t the NFL just have the Raiders go back to LA and if they really wanted a Vegas team, and Chargers were leaving San Diego anyway, just move them there?  

[The Gipper]

24 minutes ago, LondonBrown said:

I notice the Raiders had more fans at the Chargers “home” game than the Bolts did which is to be expected consider the Raiders are an LA team  

I guess it’s money related but why didn’t the NFL just have the Raiders go back to LA and if they really wanted a Vegas team, and Chargers we’re leaving San Diego anyway, just move them there?  

You really have to understand the history and the  dynamics of these situations.  The Chargers actually began life in LA as the LA Chargers back in the 60s.  But they soon moved to San Diego.  Then the Rams had moved from the Coliseum out to Anaheim sometime in the late 70s (still LA market...but it felt different...because when they were in LA they were the glory boys....the team that the Hollywood celebs loved, but that was lost when they moved to Orange Co. ).  That is when Al Davis decided to move his team to LA.  For whatever reason  LA took to them.....but it was a different crowd....it was not the LA/Hollywood celebrity crowd, it was more of the same type of people that were fans in Oakland....the  working class crowd who like a team with a bad boy image.    But the LA area would still never do much about the stadium situations that other cities did for their teams, so....for money the Rams went to St. Louis, and for money Davis went back to Oakland,   and things worked out in those areas for a while.   But then the greed and ego  factor reared its head again.    The owner of the Rams turned down a sweet deal to stay in St. Louis so that he could bulid himself a pleasure palace to appeal to the Hollywood crown in LA.  He was abetted in his move by Jerry Jones who only saw dollar signs.

In the mean time,   the Chargers were wanting a new stadium,   as were the Raiders.   But neither Oakland nor San Diego succumbed to the NFL's blackmail to put vast sums of taxpayer dollars into new sports stadium.  In essence, they felt, probably rightly that a billion dollars could be spent where there were higher priorities than a new stadium.   So, the Raiders DID consider  moving back again to LA,  and did explore their own plans.  But then Vegas came calling with the enticement of their billion plus dollars to put them into a new stadium there.  The concept appealed to the Raiders owner (Al Davis's son),  as did the concept of the bad boy Raiders being in Sin City USA.  So, that deal was made.

And, with the Ram's owner wanting to get someone else into his stadium to help pay for it, the Chargers owner agreed to come play there since he could get nothing going on a new stadium in SD. 

So....to your question as to "why didn't the NFL do this or do that in respect to these teams?"   Actually, the NFL  is not really in the driver seat with these deals all the time.  It is the team's owners and the cities that make these deals.   The NFL sometimes participates, guides, encourages these moves...and sometimes they just sit back like a lump on a log and do nothing....and on rarer occasion they will actually oppose a particular move.....or try to employ restrictions and conditions on these moves  (which they will then ignore when it seems that the money is too good...see the Rams move from St. L).

So, it was the Kroenkes (Ram's owners) with help from Jerry Jones that controlled the move back to LA by the Rams;  it was the Charger's owner who decided to chip in there and go to LA with them....and it was the Davis/Vegas people that made the Raiders deal.  As I said, the NFL just became a facilitator, not a controller.

Now....what the NFL has done for years and years and years, and certainly is STILL doing, is that they are "cultivating" other cities that do not have NFL teams, to try to encourage them to come up with potential stadium financing deals, so that they can use those cities as blackmail to current NFL cities  to try to force them to put piles of public money into their private use.  Sometimes it works.....several cities have built new stadiums under threat of having their team move.  In other places it did not.  See the Oakland and San Diego situations above.

[Mark O]

1 hour ago, LondonBrown said:

I notice the Raiders had more fans at the Chargers “home” game than the Bolts did which is to be expected consider the Raiders are an LA team  

I guess it’s money related but why didn’t the NFL just have the Raiders go back to LA and if they really wanted a Vegas team, and Chargers we’re leaving San Diego anyway, just move them there?  

I had a really long response to this all typed out and then somehow lost it.  So this is the shorter version for now.  Gipper summarized it all quite well and I can add to it as someone who lives basically right in between LA and San Diego and I lived in San Diego for a long time as well.   The Chargers will always be the forgotten team in LA, they have nearly zero chance of ever being relevant, short of playing in the Super Bowl because no one in LA wanted them there anyways.  Every game they've played since they moved has been a road game.  They're the only team playing 16 road games a year and it won't change when they move into the Rams stadium.    The stadium was full of red jerseys when the 49ers were there a couple weeks ago and it happens every week.  It was that way when the Browns played out here last season.  

California is a very big state and very divided.   NorCal hates SoCal and vice versa and then it gets divided even further when nearly everyone in San Diego hates everything to do with LA.   People of LA don't feel that way...they think of San Diego as northern mexico and a nice place to go for the weekend.  But trust me as someone who has lived in both places, the SD dislike of LA is very very real and that's the reason why there is no one who was a San Diego Chargers fan that will support them in LA.    They could've moved anywhere else and kept some fans but in LA there is no chance of that.

[LondonBrown]

Thanks guys, that Cal rivalry is interesting, sounds like they will never have a home crowd which to me is a ridiculous situation.

[Mark O]

2 minutes ago, LondonBrown said:

Thanks guys, that Cal rivalry is interesting, sounds like they will never have a home crowd which to me is a ridiculous situation.

They might against some teams that maybe don't travel as well as others.    Maybe the Florida teams coming out here wouldn't have as many fans.  But there were more Cleveland fans than Chargers fans last year.  Philly did the same thing when they were here.  KC and SF as well.    Its a fun game that a radio station in SD plays on twitter every week.  They post pictures of close ups of the stands and says "spot the Chargers jerseys". 

[LondonBrown]

2 minutes ago, Mark O said:

They might against some teams that maybe don't travel as well as others.   

If they have no long term home support surely they can't be sustained as a franchise and will end up moving again?

[Mark O]

1 minute ago, LondonBrown said:

If they have no long term home support surely they can't be sustained as a franchise and will end up moving again?

Its entirely possible.   But I guess as long as the stadium is full, even if its of opposing teams fans, the NFL won't care.   There really are not a lot of cities that are viable options for teams to move anyways.

[hoorta]

8 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Its entirely possible.   But I guess as long as the stadium is full, even if its of opposing teams fans, the NFL won't care.   There really are not a lot of cities that are viable options for teams to move anyways.

Wonder what Kronke (Rams owener) will think if his captive tenant isn't drawing well? Chargers might have to move again, but who would want them? & Who's going to be willing to fork out a billion plus for the type of stadium the NFL currently wants? BTW, which is rediculous. You just got to see first hand Ohio State has no problem stuffing 100,000+ fans into a stadium that's a garbage dump by NFL standards, & FWIW from personal experience- Michigan's Big House is no better.

[Mark O]

4 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Wonder what Kronke (Rams owener) will think if his captive tenant isn't drawing well? Chargers might have to move again, but who would want them? & Who's going to be willing to fork out a billion plus for the type of stadium the NFL currently wants? BTW, which is rediculous. You just got to see first hand Ohio State has no problem stuffing 100,000+ fans into a stadium that's a garbage dump by NFL standards, & FWIW from personal experience- Michigan's Big House is no better.

Only solution is to force the owners to sell the team to a SD based owner ship and move them back but I don't think that will happen. 

[LondonBrown]

Some related news today

 

[The Gipper]

39 minutes ago, LondonBrown said:

Some related news today

 

His son had already taken over operation of the team anyway long ago. 

On the issue of whether or not there would be any city out there that would want to take the Chargers if things went south for them in LA.  Some of you answered that there were none, and to that I say  Balderdash.   An NFL franchise, more than an MLB/NBA/NHL  franchise would be desirable to any city.  It is not a matter of cities not wanting a team, it is a matter of NFL politics.

San Antonio would want them....but they would be blocked by  Jerry Jones who thinks he owns the rights to football in that town (but Houston is making a major incursion into that thought)

Portland may want them.....but Paul Allen considers Portland his territory for his Seahawks  (but then Paul Allen may be dying of cancer)

Salt Lake City?  Perhaps.   A growing western market.

Oklahoma City......see San Antonio

St. Louis.   Not any time soon since they were  fuycked by the NFL.

There could be a few others.

[Clevfan4life]

there's some rumors Joey B might not be terribly interested in playing for the chargers much longer because a lot of the chargers players don't like the move. Chargers are going to be the worst team in football soon, no fan base. LA is rams town. The fans don't want some cast off from SD. 

[Mark O]

11 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

His son had already taken over operation of the team anyway long ago. 

On the issue of whether or not there would be any city out there that would want to take the Chargers if things went south for them in LA.  Some of you answered that there were none, and to that I say  Balderdash.   An NFL franchise, more than an MLB/NBA/NHL  franchise would be desirable to any city.  It is not a matter of cities not wanting a team, it is a matter of NFL politics.

San Antonio would want them....but they would be blocked by  Jerry Jones who thinks he owns the rights to football in that town (but Houston is making a major incursion into that thought)

Portland may want them.....but Paul Allen considers Portland his territory for his Seahawks  (but then Paul Allen may be dying of cancer)

Salt Lake City?  Perhaps.   A growing western market.

Oklahoma City......see San Antonio

St. Louis.   Not any time soon since they were  fuycked by the NFL.

There could be a few others.

Want and be able to afford are two totally different things.  None of those cities have a billion dollar stadium built and ready for a team to move into and not many cities are going to be willing to spend that kind of cash that it would take to get an NFL team to move.

[LondonBrown]

Just read St Louis are going for a MLS franchise 

[TexasAg1969]

2 hours ago, Mark O said:

Its entirely possible.   But I guess as long as the stadium is full, even if its of opposing teams fans, the NFL won't care.   There really are not a lot of cities that are viable options for teams to move anyways.

San Antonio

[Clevfan4life]

4 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

San Antonio

never happen. Between the cowboys and Jerrah and the Texans owner.....not a chance. 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

When I was stationed in San Diego I would when possible go to Chargers and Padres games.  The fans were fantastic.  Great Tail gates.  Was sad to see the Chargers leave San Diego.  Shmuck LA.

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Mark O said:

Want and be able to afford are two totally different things.  None of those cities have a billion dollar stadium built and ready for a team to move into and not many cities are going to be willing to spend that kind of cash that it would take to get an NFL team to move.

True,  but, if some NFL owner essentially declared himself open for business to move his team,  there would be cities that would be clamoring to try to set up those finances.   That is basically what Las Vegas did.

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, LondonBrown said:

Just read St Louis are going for a MLS franchise 

So is San Diego.

And, I am seeing that Cincifuyuckinnati has apparently been awarded an MLS team.   Why would they do that  when there is a team up the road in Columbus?

https://soccer.nbcsports.com/2018/05/30/ranking-the-cities-next-in-line-for-mls-expansion/

[Mark O]

4 hours ago, The Gipper said:

So is San Diego.

And, I am seeing that Cincifuyuckinnati has apparently been awarded an MLS team.   Why would they do that  when there is a team up the road in Columbus?

https://soccer.nbcsports.com/2018/05/30/ranking-the-cities-next-in-line-for-mls-expansion/

I am pretty sure the Columbus team is moving to Austin but even if that isn't happening.  Cincinatti has had a league below MLS team for a few years and draws quite a crowd for the games which is why they're getting an MLS team even if there's a team in Columbus.  

From all reports, San Diego is getting an MLS team as long as the vote to tear down Qualcomm (the old Chargers stadium) and build a soccer stadium on that site along with a park and all sorts of other stuff gets the necessary votes in November which based on my history with these things in San Diego has no chance of passing despite it not costing any public money. 

[LondonBrown]

I’m just glad Cleveland isn’t getting one.

The last thing I need is just to start off making cursory glances at their results before eventually getting a paid subscription for their live games and reading news articles, tweets and fan forums on them every day 

[Mark O]

3 minutes ago, LondonBrown said:

I’m just glad Cleveland isn’t getting one.

The last thing I need is just to start off making cursory glances at their results before eventually getting a paid subscription for their live games and reading news articles, tweets and fan forums on them every day 

It's good for you to have many, many, many teams to follow. 

[Dutch Oven]

I don't know exactly why I think this, or when it happens, but somehow I think the Chargers eventually return to San Diego. 

They had a good thing going for a long time. 

[LondonBrown]

1 minute ago, Mark O said:

It's good for you to have many, many, many teams to follow. 

I’ve even got into the Cavs and Indians (albeit mainly during the playoffs) and been up far too late at night watching their matches. This City and it’s sports teams have a way of sucking you in. 

On that note this tweet I saw really made me laugh 

[Mark O]

4 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I don't know exactly why I think this, or when it happens, but somehow I think the Chargers eventually return to San Diego. 

They had a good thing going for a long time. 

It would be nice if it was to happen but I don't think it will.   Would need the Spanos family to sell the team and that's just the first step since they also need a stadium. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, LondonBrown said:

I’m just glad Cleveland isn’t getting one.

The last thing I need is just to start off making cursory glances at their results before eventually getting a paid subscription for their live games and reading news articles, tweets and fan forums on them every day 

We always preferred indoor soccer around here anyway. 

[hoorta]

7 hours ago, The Gipper said:

True,  but, if some NFL owner essentially declared himself open for business to move his team,  there would be cities that would be clamoring to try to set up those finances.   That is basically what Las Vegas did.

RE: the Raiders move: It wasn't just Las Vegas Gipper. It was the whole freaking state of Nevada kicking in cash on top of it. Shades of the Ratbirds and Maryland. You suggested other possible cities, and unless they get state funding (and no interference from owners who consider those cities their territory) it's not happening anytime soon. The NFL will make sure any new stadium isn't a budget special- billion dollar minimum to join the club. 

You're forgetting as Mark pointed out- San Diego wasn't giving in to Spanos extortion, and St. Louis (a far bigger market than anything you mentioned) couldn't pony up a sweet enough deal to make Kroenke want to stay. 

[Nero]

8 hours ago, LondonBrown said:

I’m just glad Cleveland isn’t getting one.

The last thing I need is just to start off making cursory glances at their results before eventually getting a paid subscription for their live games and reading news articles, tweets and fan forums on them every day 

And we europeans are better off Cleveland based sports fan forums.

Nothing good comes from them.

[Nero]

7 hours ago, The Gipper said:

We always preferred indoor soccer around here anyway. 

Indoor soccer is a lot of fun. Both for playing and for watching.

It's the only team sport I've played lately and it is fun when you get used to the nuances of the game. 

[Dutch Oven]

2 hours ago, Nero said:

Indoor soccer is a lot of fun. Both for playing and for watching.

It's the only team sport I've played lately and it is fun when you get used to the nuances of the game. 

That's surprising to read from you Nero, most soccer purists (and seeing that you come from a country where soccer is king, I'd consider you a purist) seem to despise indoor soccer and consider it as bastard stepchild of "real" soccer.