Some things will never change

[flyingfooldoug]

I hate losing!

 That makes me a hater?

Bite me then!

[DieHardBrownsFan]

[medicineman]

3 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

I hate losing!

 That makes me a hater?

Bite me then!

You hate losing? You think any of us like it? We been losing so long now but now you are fed up with it? Maybe we never win because we change a coach to damn fast? We need to build a damn team and build chemistry, That takes time. How many games do you expect to win after only winning 1 game the last 2 seasons.

[BobPOUND!]

No hater here.. But those 2 calls alone are inexcusable when a team is already struggling to break through with so many rookies.. 4th and goal and you do a reverse?? Are you F'ing kidding me?

WHY GO FOR THE 2 Point conversion the 2nd time(or for that matter the 1st one!!).. We are sitting at 28 to 14 . THEN WE GO FOR A 2 POINT.. F'ING WHY??? Put the 1 point on the board and the score is 29 to 14... This means we win at the end of regulation because even if they score the 2point conversion the score is 43 to 42.. Or 44 to 42 if we had just freaking kicked the extra points..

Coaching matters!!  Whoever is making these stupid Shmucking calls needs to be called out!! If it isn't Hue, then Hue needs to get a freaking handle on this..

BobPound

[flyingfooldoug]

15 minutes ago, medicineman said:

You hate losing? You think any of us like it? We been losing so long now but now you are fed up with it? Maybe we never win because we change a coach to damn fast? We need to build a damn team and build chemistry, That takes time. How many games do you expect to win after only winning 1 game the last 2 seasons.

I predicted 2 wins. That is based on the coaching staff record. Third year...two wins. That is worse than bad. Change coaches?  Shoot em for all I care. Get somebody in here more worried about winning than he is about being all pc and nice. Fug hue in the arse til he's gone or dead or forgotten. He stinks and nothing gonna deodorize him!

[jiggins7919]

13 hours ago, jcam222 said:

99.9% of the coaches in the league having an 8 point league at the end of the game , less then 2 minutes to play with 3rd and inches on our own 18 would have punted too. The 00.1% of the coaches would have punted 99.99% of the time LOL. That is a minute amount of the time someone would have went for it. 

It's funny, it doesn't even seem like a question to me. You're up 8, you just caused a turnover on downs, Raiders had no timeouts, and there's little time left. 99.99% of coaches punt there, and you know what? It might even be 100%. I honestly think the only reason this decision is questioned is because we lost. 

Think about it this way. Suppose we DID go for it, and we didn't get it. CAN YOU IMAGINE the outcry?! The laughter from the NFL? The ridicule? The sheer outrage from fans? Can anybody really tell me that if we didn't get it, they'd be ok with the decision? I honestly don't know. 

Here's what I can tell you. Maybe it's time to flip conventional thinking. The Browns were two inches (approximately) from the victory. They never measured after the "re-spot", so we can't be sure how much they needed. But it couldn't have been much. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is, maybe it's time we went for the win instead of HOPING we get the win? If we're 2-4 inches from a victory, can we GET those inches? We of all people, especially our players and coaches, know how precious they are. Perhaps we go get the damn win. When is the last time you saw that QB forward sneak fail? I realize Baker isn't as strong as Kizer, but isn't that the play you run? 

I don't know. I'm just searching for answers that aren't there. You're a couple of inches from a victory. Maybe you just roll the dice and try to win. All I know is, when we punted that ball, after that insane review, I knew we lost. You knew we lost. The players...they knew, too. 

[nickers]

8 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

If you mean Lombardi....check out some of his books and see why the trophy was named for him. You watch the players......they play the coaches game. 

I know... Im no Millenial

[nickers]

4 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

It's funny, it doesn't even seem like a question to me. You're up 8, you just caused a turnover on downs, Raiders had no timeouts, and there's little time left. 99.99% of coaches punt there, and you know what? It might even be 100%. I honestly think the only reason this decision is questioned is because we lost. 

Think about it this way. Suppose we DID go for it, and we didn't get it. CAN YOU IMAGINE the outcry?! The laughter from the NFL? The ridicule? The sheer outrage from fans? Can anybody really tell me that if we didn't get it, they'd be ok with the decision? I honestly don't know. 

Here's what I can tell you. Maybe it's time to flip conventional thinking. The Browns were two inches (approximately) from the victory. They never measured after the "re-spot", so we can't be sure how much they needed. But it couldn't have been much. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is, maybe it's time we went for the win instead of HOPING we get the win? If we're 2-4 inches from a victory, can we GET those inches? We of all people, especially our players and coaches, know how precious they are. Perhaps we go get the damn win. When is the last time you saw that QB forward sneak fail? I realize Baker isn't as strong as Kizer, but isn't that the play you run? 

I don't know. I'm just searching for answers that aren't there. You're a couple of inches from a victory. Maybe you just roll the dice and try to win. All I know is, when we punted that ball, after that insane review, I knew we lost. You knew we lost. The players...they knew, too. 

I have said from the onset... Hue is the weakest link next to Anus Jones...

[medicineman]

7 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

I predicted 2 wins. That is based on the coaching staff record. Third year...two wins. That is worse than bad. Change coaches?  Shoot em for all I care. Get somebody in here more worried about winning than he is about being all pc and nice. Fug hue in the arse til he's gone or dead or forgotten. He stinks and nothing gonna deodorize him!

I get what you are saying but look at our past since we came back, New coach every other year and 1 after only 1 season. I am not saying Hue is smart by any stretch and no I don't like him but I am so sick of us changing QB and Coaches so soon. We get a new coach He is going to want to draft a QB that HE picked out  and want to re do the entire roster and of course after only winning 4 games with ALL new players we get another coach and he wants to draft a QB that HE picked and rinse and repeat the same since 1999, We were not going to win many games this season, Let the season pan out. Now if they want to bump either Todd or Greg up to HC then I am ALL for that right now

 

[flyingfooldoug]

13 hours ago, medicineman said:

I get what you are saying but look at our past since we came back, New coach every other year and 1 after only 1 season. I am not saying Hue is smart by any stretch and no I don't like him but I am so sick of us changing QB and Coaches so soon. We get a new coach He is going to want to draft a QB that HE picked out  and want to re do the entire roster and of course after only winning 4 games with ALL new players we get another coach and he wants to draft a QB that HE picked and rinse and repeat the same since 1999, We were not going to win many games this season, Let the season pan out. Now if they want to bump either Todd or Greg up to HC then I am ALL for that right now

 

In Pettine I saw a coach worth keeping. Hue just poisoned lake Erie this summer and should have been shipped off. Why keep a lousy coach? For continuity? Losing begets losing. Hue is a loser. From planning, coaching and QBs selection, he has done nothing but fail. I see keeping this cat around is the equivalent to Insanity!

[flyingfooldoug]

21 hours ago, medicineman said:

You hate losing? You think any of us like it? We been losing so long now but now you are fed up with it? Maybe we never win because we change a coach to damn fast? We need to build a damn team and build chemistry, That takes time. How many games do you expect to win after only winning 1 game the last 2 seasons.

Team chemistry involves following a proven loser? I picked em to win 2 this year. Others have jumped ahead while we just spin wheels. We got a team. Just needs some real coaches now. Talented player, leads late in most games. Losses! That's the only continuity I've seen. Lose, lose,lose,lose,lose. Year after year after year after year after year. 

 I'm going fishing!

[medicineman]

2 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

Team chemistry involves following a proven loser? I picked em to win 2 this year. Others have jumped ahead while we just spin wheels. We got a team. Just needs some real coaches now. Talented player, leads late in most games. Losses! That's the only continuity I've seen. Lose, lose,lose,lose,lose. Year after year after year after year after year. 

 I'm going fishing!

Baker Baker seemed to adapt well to Hue system. Let the season play out, BTW I thought Chud should of got more than 1 season, I liked Eric Mangini and Pettine as well. So sick of the coaching carosel as much as I am the QB one. Not to mention before or during EVERY game that faggot commentators feel the need t talk about all the starting QB we have had since 1999, and the same Sheet with the coaches.

[jiggins7919]

16 hours ago, medicineman said:

I get what you are saying but look at our past since we came back, New coach every other year and 1 after only 1 season. I am not saying Hue is smart by any stretch and no I don't like him but I am so sick of us changing QB and Coaches so soon. We get a new coach He is going to want to draft a QB that HE picked out  and want to re do the entire roster and of course after only winning 4 games with ALL new players we get another coach and he wants to draft a QB that HE picked and rinse and repeat the same since 1999, We were not going to win many games this season, Let the season pan out. Now if they want to bump either Todd or Greg up to HC then I am ALL for that right now

 

I love what you're saying, and it's basically what I've been saying for years. Especially now that we have a rookie QB with legit promise, do we REALLY want to subject him to a new offense, new language, and all that crap? Do we really want to draft players that fit yet another new scheme? I don't think so. 

But here's the rub, and it's something I don't have an answer to. We lose virtually EVERY last minute, down to the wire game we've been involved in for 2 plus years. We lose them when we need a stop from our defense. We lose them when we need a FG. We lose them when we're in overtime. We lose them in the most creative, awful ways. When does that change? How much of that is on our coaches? I honestly don't know, but it's obvious to me that something is just "wrong". I can't explain it. I absolutely KNEW we were losing that Saints game in the 3rd quarter. After we punted in the Raiders game, I knew it as well. How do we change that? 

[TexasAg1969]

1 hour ago, jiggins7919 said:

 After we punted in the Raiders game, I knew it as well. How do we change that? 

Ah...................don't punt? Go for it instead? If you can't make less than a foot then you don't belong on a football field. Especially now that they allow players to push/block a ballcarrier through the line from behind, a tactic that works now that it's no longer flagged. Do we even practice it?

[Tacosman]

On 10/2/2018 at 5:47 PM, jcam222 said:

Maybe 0.1% of the time lol, Statiscally sound to punt there, our D simply didnt hold

no it wasnt statistically  sound.  the win% favored going for it.  

More coaches now than 10 years ago get that punting in these situations is a bad call.  Just off the top of my head Bellichek, Pederson, Mcvay would have certainly gone for it.  And more as well.   Hue Jackson is not Bellicheck, pederson or mcvay

[jiggins7919]

2 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Ah...................don't punt? Go for it instead? If you can't make less than a foot then you don't belong on a football field. Especially now that they allow players to push/block a ballcarrier through the line from behind, a tactic that works now that it's no longer flagged. Do we even practice it?

We were really good at it with Kizer. Obviously he's bigger, but we got about half our rushing touchdowns that way last year. Lol

I can't know for sure, but I can't think of any coaches that would go for it there. I honestly believe we were so completely shocked by that reversal, we couldn't do anything but punt. Remember, we had the victory formation ON THE FIELD. Fans were filing out. Players were celebrating. We mentally thought we won the game. 

[Chicopee John]

Well, the Browns could easily be 4-0.

Malfunctions, galore, at the end of games.  The end of the game is when coaching quality shines.

Being a UCONN grad, I know Dorsey is a smart NFL Executive and - although he is giving Jackson this year to show himself - as end-of-game losses pile up, the closer Jackson comes to the unemployment line.

There are so many intangibles involved but, bottom line, good coaches get their team over the top on those 4-6 critical plays each game.  If Jackson that can't make it happen sooner rather than later, there won't be a later for him - nor should there be.

 

 

 

 

 

[jcam222]

9 hours ago, Tacosman said:

no it wasnt statistically  sound.  the win% favored going for it.  

More coaches now than 10 years ago get that punting in these situations is a bad call.  Just off the top of my head Bellichek, Pederson, Mcvay would have certainly gone for it.  And more as well.   Hue Jackson is not Bellicheck, pederson or mcvay

Rather than just argue i will ask that you show me the actual statistics that specifically back going for it on the 18 yard line ,  less than 2 minutes left and an 8 point lead. 

[gumby73]

14 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

  I'm going fishing!

Ta-da! Not much sleep Sunday night so I took 2 football sunday sick days & got to Topsail Beach Monday afternoon. Said "heck, your at the beach" ya might want to rise that 2 more vacation days . So I did..Caught the heck out some fish, good luck yourself! Now to catching up on post? what'd i miss..is Swagger dead too? 

[medicineman]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 9:10 AM, TexasAg1969 said:

Ah...................don't punt? Go for it instead? If you can't make less than a foot then you don't belong on a football field. Especially now that they allow players to push/block a ballcarrier through the line from behind, a tactic that works now that it's no longer flagged. Do we even practice it?

If we went for it and made it, there would of been a hold or who knows what.

[medicineman]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 7:49 AM, jiggins7919 said:

I love what you're saying, and it's basically what I've been saying for years. Especially now that we have a rookie QB with legit promise, do we REALLY want to subject him to a new offense, new language, and all that crap? Do we really want to draft players that fit yet another new scheme? I don't think so. 

But here's the rub, and it's something I don't have an answer to. We lose virtually EVERY last minute, down to the wire game we've been involved in for 2 plus years. We lose them when we need a stop from our defense. We lose them when we need a FG. We lose them when we're in overtime. We lose them in the most creative, awful ways. When does that change? How much of that is on our coaches? I honestly don't know, but it's obvious to me that something is just "wrong". I can't explain it. I absolutely KNEW we were losing that Saints game in the 3rd quarter. After we punted in the Raiders game, I knew it as well. How do we change that? 

What sucks is we been doing that for YEARS, We ALWAYS find a way to lose the close ones. Remember a few years back in San Diego, Playing the chargers, they go to kick a last second FG and miss it but called Gipson offsides? That is OUR LUCK, If Hue wants to change our luck and whatever he should of went for it on 4th and inches, Even though they would of still found a way to screw us, but really we had a 2 TD lead 2 times in that game and LOST????? I say half credit goes to the refs and the other half on the Offense for giving them  the ball 2 times in the red zone AND a pick 6 on the games first play because it bounced off the wr HANDS? How many times did the Ball bounce off Britt's chest last year and in the defenders hands? That happened twice in the endzone smh.

[Dutch Oven]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 5:01 PM, Chicopee John said:

Well, the Browns could easily be 4-0.

Malfunctions, galore, at the end of games.  The end of the game is when coaching quality shines.

Being a UCONN grad, I know Dorsey is a smart NFL Executive and - although he is giving Jackson this year to show himself - as end-of-game losses pile up, the closer Jackson comes to the unemployment line.

There are so many intangibles involved but, bottom line, good coaches get their team over the top on those 4-6 critical plays each game.  If Jackson that can't make it happen sooner rather than later, there won't be a later for him - nor should there be.

I hate saying this, because it will come off like I'm defending Hue, but let's say the Browns fired Hue at the end of last season. 

And let's say that Matt Nagy or Frank Reich or whoever had piloted the Browns this season to the EXACT same results.

I can guarantee you no one (yet) would be calling for the new guy's head, and the new guy would be universally hailed for getting this team to look like a real competitive squad, and if it wasn't for the kicker or the refs or just plain dumb luck this new coach would have the Browns at 4-0. This board would have loved him going for 2, and would have never questioned not going for it on 4th and inches from his own 19. 

[jiggins7919]

6 hours ago, medicineman said:

What sucks is we been doing that for YEARS, We ALWAYS find a way to lose the close ones. Remember a few years back in San Diego, Playing the chargers, they go to kick a last second FG and miss it but called Gipson offsides? That is OUR LUCK, If Hue wants to change our luck and whatever he should of went for it on 4th and inches, Even though they would of still found a way to screw us, but really we had a 2 TD lead 2 times in that game and LOST????? I say half credit goes to the refs and the other half on the Offense for giving them  the ball 2 times in the red zone AND a pick 6 on the games first play because it bounced off the wr HANDS? How many times did the Ball bounce off Britt's chest last year and in the defenders hands? That happened twice in the endzone smh.

I know man. And this is what I've been saying for...well....forever. Until we find a way to get past our negative ju-ju...we won't consistently win. It's not very scientific, but what else can you say? SOMETHING is just "wrong", and I don't know how else to describe it. Remember the pick-6 Myles Garrett had, but Nassib was lined up in the neutral zone? This is what I'm talking about. Until we figure this out, this inexplicable "WTF-Ness"....we're going to be a losing team. 

[TexasAg1969]

53 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

I know man. And this is what I've been saying for...well....forever. Until we find a way to get past our negative ju-ju...we won't consistently win. It's not very scientific, but what else can you say? SOMETHING is just "wrong", and I don't know how else to describe it. Remember the pick-6 Myles Garrett had, but Nassib was lined up in the neutral zone? This is what I'm talking about. Until we figure this out, this inexplicable "WTF-Ness"....we're going to be a losing team. 

You will be happy to know the "WTF-Ness" moved to Denver last Monday night. 2nd and 30 last drive of the game, center clearly has the ball on the ground when the 25 sec clock expired. Ref missed the call which cannot be challenged and KC ends up getting the 1st down instead of 5 yard penalty. KC then scored the winning TD. Hopefully "WTF-Ness" just stays in Denver and leaves the Browns forever.

[nickers]

Well if some winning don't start happening soon.. Hue will be out of a job before long...

[Flugel]

6 minutes ago, nickers said:

Well if some winning don't start happening soon.. Hue will be out of a job before long...

Whatever is going to happen is going to happen my man.

I'm not joining the strong current ALL EXCITED about firing him as early as October just to race right back to the type of HC hiring criteria Jimmy Haslam has had in narrowing down his finalists (ie: Chip Kelly, Ken Wisenhunt, etc).  The OC and DC Jimmy would have to choose between for the Interim HC duty both failed miserably enough for short tenures as HC.  Sometimes guys like Wade Phillips, Lindy Infante, Norv Turner, Gregg Williams and Todd Haley are way better Coordinators than they were as HCs.  This is one of them.  Choosing 1 insults the other while it also puts someone like Zampese (who failed miserably as an OC in Cincy) or someone on the defensive side of the ball into a Coordinator position with growing pains we can ill-afford to add.

I've been watching us knee jerk 1 HC after another out of town here to the extent I can't get excited at all about Jimmy Haslam narrowing another one of his disappointing searches down. Although I'll confess to thinking it was a great thing Hue was interested in coming here and that he was hired.   After the Interim gets fired, Haslam will probably end up interviewing the Ryan Brothers and Jeff Fisher instead of Jim Schwartz. If just firing coaches was the right move - don't you think it would have worked by now?  How many times do we need to watch this sequel to figure out the ending?   There's people still watching the first Rocky Movie hoping he'll win if they just watch it 1 more time.  It's kind of like rooting for Jimmy Haslam to choose another head coach here with his pin the tail on the donkey blind folds on.  Even worse, he keeps finding the donkey and hiring it anyway.  The symptoms have become wide spread asss bleed and blisters.  However, the disease is WHO does the hiring and how he's continued to do it.  There's just no getting me pumped up for that.  I say that because it also includes firing the OC and DC now getting us some progress recently in scoring and a #1 ranking with 13  takeaways. 

[nickers]

45 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Whatever is going to happen is going to happen my man.

I'm not joining the strong current ALL EXCITED about firing him as early as October just to race right back to the type of HC hiring criteria Jimmy Haslam has had in narrowing down his finalists (ie: Chip Kelly, Ken Wisenhunt, etc).  The OC and DC Jimmy would have to choose between for the Interim HC duty both failed miserably enough for short tenures as HC.  Sometimes guys like Wade Phillips, Lindy Infante, Norv Turner, Gregg Williams and Todd Haley are way better Coordinators than they were as HCs.  This is one of them.  Choosing 1 insults the other while it also puts someone like Zampese (who failed miserably as an OC in Cincy) or someone on the defensive side of the ball into a Coordinator position with growing pains we can ill-afford to add.

I've been watching us knee jerk 1 HC after another out of town here to the extent I can't get excited at all about Jimmy Haslam narrowing another one of his disappointing searches down. Although I'll confess to thinking it was a great thing Hue was interested in coming here and that he was hired.   After the Interim gets fired, Haslam will probably end up interviewing the Ryan Brothers and Jeff Fisher instead of Jim Schwartz. If just firing coaches was the right move - don't you think it would have worked by now?  How many times do we need to watch this sequel to figure out the ending?   There's people still watching the first Rocky Movie hoping he'll win if they just watch it 1 more time.  It's kind of like rooting for Jimmy Haslam to choose another head coach here with his pin the tail on the donkey blind folds on.  Even worse, he keeps finding the donkey and hiring it anyway.  The symptoms have become wide spread asss bleed and blisters.  However, the disease is WHO does the hiring and how he's continued to do it.  There's just no getting me pumped up for that.  I say that because it also includes firing the OC and DC now getting us some progress recently in scoring and a #1 ranking with 13  takeaways. 

I get all of that Tom.. But how many Mulligans does Hue get?.. hes had 2 already....

[Flugel]

Just now, nickers said:

I get all of that Tom.. But how many Mulligans does Hue get?.. hes had 2 already....

And how many more times do you need to see Cleveland ownership since 99 hiring HCs this fan base can't wait to see fired within 2-3 years?  I'll take the 2 mulligans and swim against popular opinion now that I'm finally seeing a team with a chance to win every game it has played at the end of regulation/OT. I whole-heartedly agree it needs to start turning into wins; but you gotta be careful with what type of solutions you choose during a season that has 12 games left. 

If this team continues the whole year losing games they had chances to win - you'll get your wish. We'll end up with one of Ryan Brothers as our Next HC and I'll remind you why I told you to be careful what you wished for.  It's probably be the one that looks like Captain Kangaroo with a pony tail.  You know that'll happen instead of someone like Jim Schwartz that took a franchise like Detroilet to the playoffs not too long after they went 0-16.

Let's say we knee jerk to your wishes and fire him today.  We name one of the Coordinators HC which pisses off the other Coordinator.  In the process, we escalate Ken Zampese to OC (research how that went in Cincy last year) if Haley is the Interim or Haley multi-tasks (what we wanted to get away from this year from the HC position.  If it's Williams now we promote a coach on the defensive side that may not be ready or he gets in over his head trying to stay on as DC and multi-tasking that with HC duties. More specifically, we just gave a box of matches to a pyromaniac and got all comfortable because we told him to be careful.  

Let's not pretend there's a bunch of unemployed coaches ready to be the next Bill Belichick or Paul Brown as early as this week.  Doesn't work like that and never has... 

[jiggins7919]

5 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

You will be happy to know the "WTF-Ness" moved to Denver last Monday night. 2nd and 30 last drive of the game, center clearly has the ball on the ground when the 25 sec clock expired. Ref missed the call which cannot be challenged and KC ends up getting the 1st down instead of 5 yard penalty. KC then scored the winning TD. Hopefully "WTF-Ness" just stays in Denver and leaves the Browns forever.

Yeesh. That's pretty bad. 

[nickers]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

And how many more times do you need to see Cleveland ownership since 99 hiring HCs this fan base can't wait to see fired within 2-3 years?  I'll take the 2 mulligans and swim against popular opinion now that I'm finally seeing a team with a chance to win every game it has played at the end of regulation/OT. I whole-heartedly agree it needs to start turning into wins; but you gotta be careful with what type of solutions you choose during a season that has 12 games left. 

If this team continues the whole year losing games they had chances to win - you'll get your wish. We'll end up with one of Ryan Brothers as our Next HC and I'll remind you why I told you to be careful what you wished for.  It's probably be the one that looks like Captain Kangaroo with a pony tail.  You know that'll happen instead of someone like Jim Schwartz that took a franchise like Detroilet to the playoffs not too long after they went 0-16.

Let's say we knee jerk to your wishes and fire him today.  We name one of the Coordinators HC which pisses off the other Coordinator.  In the process, we escalate Ken Zampese to OC (research how that went in Cincy last year) if Haley is the Interim or Haley multi-tasks (what we wanted to get away from this year from the HC position.  If it's Williams now we promote a coach on the defensive side that may not be ready or he gets in over his head trying to stay on as DC and multi-tasking that with HC duties. More specifically, we just gave a box of matches to a pyromaniac and got all comfortable because we told him to be careful.  

Let's not pretend there's a bunch of unemployed coaches ready to be the next Bill Belichick or Paul Brown as early as this week.  Doesn't work like that and never has... 

So.. I guess what your saying is you would rather stand by .. And pretend your wife isnt cheating on you.. I mean.. Thats what it feels like to me.... he gets the next 6 games to show me something..If goes less than 500. . he gets till the end of the year... if he goes less than 2.5.. He's outtie... if we have a losing season.. Someone has to take the fall.. its all about business..... if we go 500 or eek out a wild card.. He definitely stays...