Some things will never change

[Ghoolie]

In all honesty, in all my days I have never seen a bunch of hapless misanthropes blaming their shiddy losses on the refs. 2 weeks ago it was the kicker. 

The BIG LOSER? Marty HaleyStiener and his Bernie Kosar philosophy of sitting on a lead and having no balls to close a game out. Seriously, 2 yards to end the game. Raider had 126 men in the box...SALIVATING for a run. Had the Browns called a play-action pass, the Raiders D would have bitten with full force, and a little flip over the middle would have broken their backs.

The bigger question is, why are the Browns constantly in a position where a last-minute bad call causes them to lose? It is bad coaching, and I stress this again...........a TOTAL lack of discipline among the players. Fumbles, penalties, Running kickoffs, out to the 12-yard line, not kicking extra points................The issue is not the bad calls, the issue is why do the Browns continue to be the least organized, focused, smart and disciplined team in the NFL?

I wanted Hue Jackson fired after 1 quarter of his first pre-season game. I called for this based on the same things we keep seeing week after week. The only shame there is in losing if the reasons for the losing are not lack of talent, but instead because of a lack of fundamentals, coaching, and discipline.

Hue Jackson blows.

[LondonBrown]

Yup

[Bob806]

I'm no fan of Hue either, but around 70% of all NFL games every week hinge on about 5 or 6 plays, and which team executes them better. 

Officiating sometimes plays a part in these 5 or 6 plays. Sunday in Oakland was horse$hit.

It's encouraging to see the Browns close to "getting there. "

 

[flyingfooldoug]

It's a coaches league.

It's a coaches league.

Vince Lombardi trophy.

Shula, Landry, Brown, are more legendary than players for this reason.... It's a coaches league!

 

[The Gipper]

So what good does it do us to harp about it now?  Really?

[hoorta]

I've said they should have gone for it on 4th down. The refs prevented a Browns defensive TD ruling Carr "in the grasp". OTOH, Beast Mode wasn't down either. But should have gotten an unsportsmanlike penalty afterwards. They missed Baker taking a head shot, and plenty of offensive holds that didn't get called either. Lousy reffing all game.

[BobPOUND!]

I was against this early in the season, even though I lost any wanting of him being our coach 2 years ago. I had high hopes for him based on the hype he brought with him. After 3 years now, that is all he is HYPE.. 

The Haslan's were forced to stick with Hue this year because they needed to prove to some yet to be determined coach, that we would even give hapless Hue 3 years even with only 2 wins and a tie!!!

This will put us in the running for some higher caliber coaches either this year or going into next year.. But why wait?  This is based off the only information I have available, but hard knocks showed me that the guys on that team TOLERATE Hue at best.. I think there is a stench that follows Hue around that he no longer able to get rid of...

The men will play for Williams or Haley as they respect them.. Personally I would go for Williams to finish the season out....

But for once I am willing to give this team the time to get this right....We have the talent finally.. We just need to show the guys that performance matters and integrity matters.. We got rid of Coleman and Gordon.. Time to do what is right for this team. And week 5 is the time to do it!!

BobPound

[Ghoolie]

16 minutes ago, BobPOUND! said:

I was against this early in the season, even though I lost any wanting of him being our coach 2 years ago. I had high hopes for him based on the hype he brought with him. After 3 years now, that is all he is HYPE.. 

The Haslan's were forced to stick with Hue this year because they needed to prove to some yet to be determined coach, that we would even give hapless Hue 3 years even with only 2 wins and a tie!!!

This will put us in the running for some higher caliber coaches either this year or going into next year.. But why wait?  This is based off the only information I have available, but hard knocks showed me that the guys on that team TOLERATE Hue at best.. I think there is a stench that follows Hue around that he no longer able to get rid of...

The men will play for Williams or Haley as they respect them.. Personally I would go for Williams to finish the season out....

But for once I am willing to give this team the time to get this right....We have the talent finally.. We just need to show the guys that performance matters and integrity matters.. We got rid of Coleman and Gordon.. Time to do what is right for this team. And week 5 is the time to do it!!

BobPound

Oddly enough, and honestly, to my own pleasure, this was the first time in a long time that I actually felt some emotion about the team winning. I still get the Ghoolie urge to heap tough love on this franchise, but there is a lot of talent on the team, and as I acknowledged, Dorsey hit it out of the ballpark.

Seriously, Browns fans need to stop complaining about the referees and facing the fact that it is coaching, strategy and discipline that are causing this team to lose. Garrett, while not a Mean Joe Green is a physical menace to offenses, the team has the right QB, and we can run the ball. Dropped passes? Not calling play action passes on obvious, stacked house short yardage situations? Fumbles? Penalties? All of that rests with Hue Jackson.

Haley gets no heat form me. He calls plays per situation based on what he is instructed to do. Williams D can't be expected to shut out teams that keep getting the ball int he red zone.

This loss was despicable. The tie with the Steelers was despicable. You can go ahead and blame the refs, but the players put this game in a position where the Raiders were helpless. Marty Stinkenhiemer type coaching is what gave the game away. The Browns have one problem, andone problem alone............Hue Jackson. 

 

 

[BobPOUND!]

That call on the 2 yard line where instead of having our stud Running Back(EITHER OF THEM!!!!!!!) take it straight up the gut, someone(Hue or Haley??) calls a trick play that results in a 4 yard loss.. that call right there was indefensible.   I can't believe that isn't on every post today...

Going for 2 points ?? That 1 point cost us the game didn't it???? Those aren't player errors those are coaching errors.. BOTH COST US THE GAME... By the time we get to the 4th and 1 call, the game is already being lost by us.. Game should have been shut down long before..

That game pissed me off to high heaven.. Sure the dropped passes were key, but we bounced back from them.. You can't bounce back from leaving 5 points off the board(the net gain from running up the middle for the TD on the 1 and the single point instead of going for 2)...

Inexcusable.

 

BobPound

[jiggins7919]

I'll never understand it. I just never will. The only way I can rationalize the stupid playcalls near the goal line is that people much smarter than me know what they're doing. It has to be that way, or else they wouldn't have a job in the freaking NFL. Right? RIGHT?! 

You guys remember in the preseason when we got to the 1 yard line in a game, and then we tried like 3 or 4 ridiculous pass plays that ALL had no chance of scoring? We kind of chalked it up to it being preseason, and perhaps we were just working on things. Nope. We've still got some dumb juice running through our veins, and I'll never be able to explain why we do things like the Callaway reverse play. 

It's a bit frustrating because I just saw that play work beautifully for the Bears. Or a close version of it. But anyway, why didn't we play to our strengths? Run the ball 3 straight times with Hyde? How many times has that failed us so far? Is there such a thing as going to the well too often? Would it not make sense to utilize our $80 million guards? Maybe even Duke Johnson over the top? 

It's very easy to play Tuesday morning quarterback. To second guess decisions. But that Callaway call didn't sit right with me AT ALL, and Jim Donovan, who I greatly admire, said the same thing. There's a reason Hyde scored several rushing touchdowns already. It's because we're good at punching it in. Why go away from that? I honestly don't know. Perhaps Haley saw something in film that made the Raiders appear vulnerable to the reverse. Who knows. What I DO KNOW is that coaches have a tendency to get cute, and when they do and it doesn't work, it leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. 

[nickers]

9 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

It's a coaches league.

It's a coaches league.

Vince Lombardi trophy.

Shula, Landry, Brown, are more legendary than players for this reason.... It's a coaches league!

 

When I go to , or .. watch a game.. I don't go to see the coaches or the owner.. I go to see who is actually playing.. That means "the PLAYERS"

[flyingfooldoug]

3 minutes ago, nickers said:

When I go to , or .. watch a game.. I don't go to see the coaches or the owner.. I go to see who is actually playing.. That means "the PLAYERS"

Cool, I do too. But the game plan determines the game outcome. Why is it the Lombardi Trophy and not the Jim Brown trophy?

[nickers]

9 minutes ago, flyingfooldoug said:

Cool, I do too. But the game plan determines the game outcome. Why is it the Lombardi Trophy and not the Jim Brown trophy?

He was popular at the time...

[Orion]

5 hours ago, hoorta said:

Lousy reffing all game.

Yup.  But that's not something that's new.  It goes back to the leather helmet days.  We now have MUCH better and MANY more cameras at games.  Not to mention MANY more rules to enforce.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't complain about the officiating.  A bad call by a ref is the same as a bad play by a player.  Worthy of noting.  Rich Carlis missed!

We have a bad HC.  I listen to Hue's press conferences sometimes on 92 The Fan.....and all I can think of is something Sam Rutigliano said recently, "Hue has a knack for saying the wrong thing at the right time."  And some of the morning 92 The Fan guys are saying that Hue's evaluation started when Mayfield entered the game against the Jets.  And that all that happened before was because of poor team talent.  -  Well, they should all go and read the game log of just before the 1st half ended in Hue's first game against Cincy.  And then they can tell me how that stretch of incredibly dumb decisions was 'team talent's fault' !

[Ghoolie]

1 hour ago, jiggins7919 said:

I'll never understand it. I just never will. The only way I can rationalize the stupid playcalls near the goal line is that people much smarter than me know what they're doing. It has to be that way, or else they wouldn't have a job in the freaking NFL. Right? RIGHT?! 

You guys remember in the preseason when we got to the 1 yard line in a game, and then we tried like 3 or 4 ridiculous pass plays that ALL had no chance of scoring? We kind of chalked it up to it being preseason, and perhaps we were just working on things. Nope. We've still got some dumb juice running through our veins, and I'll never be able to explain why we do things like the Callaway reverse play. 

It's a bit frustrating because I just saw that play work beautifully for the Bears. Or a close version of it. But anyway, why didn't we play to our strengths? Run the ball 3 straight times with Hyde? How many times has that failed us so far? Is there such a thing as going to the well too often? Would it not make sense to utilize our $80 million guards? Maybe even Duke Johnson over the top? 

It's very easy to play Tuesday morning quarterback. To second guess decisions. But that Callaway call didn't sit right with me AT ALL, and Jim Donovan, who I greatly admire, said the same thing. There's a reason Hyde scored several rushing touchdowns already. It's because we're good at punching it in. Why go away from that? I honestly don't know. Perhaps Haley saw something in film that made the Raiders appear vulnerable to the reverse. Who knows. What I DO KNOW is that coaches have a tendency to get cute, and when they do and it doesn't work, it leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. 

No jiggins, they aren't smarter than you. IN FACT..............you are smart enough to have won this game for us. Pretty much everyone here is. THAT is the disgusting part.

Anytime the box is stacked running against it is not smart, but calling a trick play is even dumber. Especially a slow developing one.

I was a roll for wanting Jackson fired after 1 QTR of his first pre season....now I don't look so crazy. Hue Jackson is the worst coach in the NFL. Literally, he is a tard.

 

[Ghoolie]

45 minutes ago, nickers said:

He was popular at the time...

1) Jim Brown only won 1 championship

2) Jim Brown quit football

3) Jim Brown is STILL the only NFL player actually indicted and charged with Rape, and attempted 2nd degree manslaughter.

Not the guy you want as the pinnacle of your organization. Although, Donald Trump loves the guy, as do I.

[jcam222]

99.9% of the coaches in the league having an 8 point league at the end of the game , less then 2 minutes to play with 3rd and inches on our own 18 would have punted too. The 00.1% of the coaches would have punted 99.99% of the time LOL. That is a minute amount of the time someone would have went for it. 

[stillmotion]

4 minutes ago, jcam222 said:

99.9% of the coaches in the league having an 8 point league at the end of the game , less then 2 minutes to play with 3rd and inches on our own 18 would have punted too. The 00.1% of the coaches would have punted 99.99% of the time LOL. That is a minute amount of the time someone would have went for it. 

bill b would've gone for it.

[jcam222]

1 minute ago, stillmotion said:

bill b would've gone for it.

Maybe 0.1% of the time lol, Statiscally sound to punt there, our D simply didnt hold

[Orion]

1 hour ago, jcam222 said:

99.9% of the coaches in the league having an 8 point league at the end of the game , less then 2 minutes to play with 3rd and inches on our own 18 would have punted too. The 00.1% of the coaches would have punted 99.99% of the time LOL. That is a minute amount of the time someone would have went for it. 

The QB sneak is an almost guaranteed first down.  (and I'm sure you meant 4th down and inches)  

How much did we spend on our two guards (and throw in the center)?  But we didn't think we could QB sneak a 4th and inches?  

[jcam222]

41 minutes ago, Orion said:

The QB sneak is an almost guaranteed first down.  (and I'm sure you meant 4th down and inches)  

How much did we spend on our two guards (and throw in the center)?  But we didn't think we could QB sneak a 4th and inches?  

haha yes meant 4th and inches, now we know why I don't coach. I still think statistically punting was the right thing to do. They not only had to get a TD but also convert a 2pt play. I know they did but odds were on our side. 

Secondly based on the officiating just how confident are you that we wouldnt have got screwed on the spot again turning the ball over on the 18??

[Orion]

11 minutes ago, jcam222 said:

They not only had to get a TD but also convert a 2pt play.

....whether we went for it (& failed) or not.   And with Mitchell gone and our DB's moving positions to cover for him, we couldn't stop the pass.  

At the time, I wanted to sneak it for the inches required.   Then we could all shake hands and go take a shower.

[Gunz41]

5 minutes ago, Orion said:

....whether we went for it (& failed) or not.   And with Mitchell gone and our DB's moving positions to cover for him, we couldn't stop the pass.  

At the time, I wanted to sneak it for the inches required.   Then we could all shake hands and go take a shower.

I couldn't find anywhere else, and it could have been changed slightly in either direction, but since you KEEP bringing it up.

Down by 6 with 1:00 to go, 9% probability rate. So down by 8 would probably come close to cut that in half, say 5%.

4th and inches probability. The data I could find says around 65%. Just in case, say there has been a 10% increase, that is STILL 20 less likely to succeed. That is just getting it, not failing, giving the other team a shorter field.

So the data obviously shows that punting results in a higher percentage. So think all you want, but dont give out wrong information to try and prove a point, degrade the coaching for making the statistical decision, and then say they lost the game because of that.

And as I pointed out earlier and so did someone else, completely rail on the officials and say it was rigged, cheaters, etc and that the Browns were robbed on the spot and then turn around, expect the team to gather themselves seconds after such a terrible call and think they then would get the best spot ever when 22 players are in the exact same place.

[SD_Tom]

18 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

I couldn't find anywhere else, and it could have been changed slightly in either direction, but since you KEEP bringing it up.

Down by 6 with 1:00 to go, 9% probability rate. So down by 8 would probably come close to cut that in half, say 5%.

4th and inches probability. The data I could find says around 65%. Just in case, say there has been a 10% increase, that is STILL 20 less likely to succeed. That is just getting it, not failing, giving the other team a shorter field.

So the data obviously shows that punting results in a higher percentage. So think all you want, but dont give out wrong information to try and prove a point, degrade the coaching for making the statistical decision, and then say they lost the game because of that.

And as I pointed out earlier and so did someone else, completely rail on the officials and say it was rigged, cheaters, etc and that the Browns were robbed on the spot and then turn around, expect the team to gather themselves seconds after such a terrible call and think they then would get the best spot ever when 22 players are in the exact same place.

 With the track record this year of ST.... I think going for it on 4th and 5 from our own goal line might have better odds. 

Only semi kidding

[Orion]

1 hour ago, Gunz41 said:

I couldn't find anywhere else,

Sports On Earth:

You can hate the quarterback sneak all you want. It works, and it is battle-tested enough that the 80% success rate is no data blip. Assuming that it is 4th-and-inches, the sneak is such a good percentage play that it should be used far more often:

[Gunz41]

5 minutes ago, Orion said:

Sports On Earth:

 

 

Ok, so I was 5% off. Still less than 91-95%. I am sure there is also data somewhere showing the difference in doing that with Cam Newton or Big Ben vs Baker sized player.

Whatever. It doesn't matter what someone says, some people are going to believe what they want and nothing is going to change their mind. So have at it boys, it was fixed, the coach is the dumbest ever, everyone on here would have won that game, etc.

[Dick Mellon]

20 hours ago, Ghoolie said:

In all honesty, in all my days I have never seen a bunch  . . . . .

 

Thanks for that sir.  You are perfectly correct.  I don't have to write anything because you said it perfectly.

How many times have the Browns 2.0 scored 45 or more?  Once in 2007?

Todd Haley is doing for the Browns what he did for PIT.  Scoring points.

We thought that defense was fine and it was the offense that was questionable.

What happened?  I only watched the highlights.  The fool game is downloading now.  I may have more to not say later.

Thanks Ghoolie.

[Ghoolie]

3 hours ago, finger Mellon said:

Thanks for that sir.  You are perfectly correct.  I don't have to write anything because you said it perfectly.

How many times have the Browns 2.0 scored 45 or more?  Once in 2007?

Todd Haley is doing for the Browns what he did for PIT.  Scoring points.

We thought that defense was fine and it was the offense that was questionable.

What happened?  I only watched the highlights.  The fool game is downloading now.  I may have more to not say later.

Thanks Ghoolie.

My pleasure

[flyingfooldoug]

9 hours ago, nickers said:

He was popular at the time...

If you mean Lombardi....check out some of his books and see why the trophy was named for him. You watch the players......they play the coaches game. 

[medicineman]

Some things wont ever change. Like You Ghoolie, You said months ago the Browns wont win a game all season and we would get crushed in every game. In fact you say the same thing every year about every damn coach we ever have. If you don't see any improvement in this team then you are not a fan. How is this loss Hue's fault now that he no longer calls plays? The way I se it we did shoot ourselves in the foot but it is hard to overcome when you have lousy refs that must of had money on the Raid-UHS  and now you have the NFL calling all the NFL shows forcing them to say the refs made the right call, Just like they did over Bottlegate.  We scored 42 points! How is that for a shitty team? We lost 2 games by 3 points each sounds to me we are right with them just need something to bring it together. I am a Browns fan, I support this team, You are either with the Browns or against the Browns and you seem to love when we lose so you can cry about how much you hate the coach. If you know so much why not apply for the HC job? This team was awful long before Hue took over,  We had no stability at any position when Hue arrived, Things are way better than a year ago, Things are a million times better than a year ago. GO BROWNS! And Fuk all the haters.