Peppers

[Clevfan4life]

1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

I'm curious, do you have a link to the video? The only view of it I saw was the broadcast angle and it cuts most of the play off.

I just slowed down the video on the link previously provided which was the broadcast. You can kind of see what happened, Jordy faked the corner route and broke to the inside. Peppers "has" to respect that fake. This notion that Jordy Nelson is some over the hill bum that beats no one is laughable, dude is still one of the fastest WR's in the entire fukking game. Peppers had inside help, the coverage should have worked. I don't know if it's partly Schoberts fault or not. But peppers closed the gap very quickly and got there almost as the ball did...it's just a heck of a throw by Carr. Im just not going to sht on a young player that got beat by Carr and a WR that made his name catching Aaron Rodgers. I hope we at least expressed interest in getting Nelson to Cleveland. That kind of guy could have brought some amazing knowledge to our team. Imagine what Nelson could bring to the WR room.....even Landry could learn from him. 

[Mark O]

14 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

Well, I'll leave it at that. If any unbiased person is following this thread, and they see you going off about that play, I hope they click out and watch the actual play. It is hard to take your ranting seriously when you're complaining about Pep's performance on a play he wasn't even in for...

I have no opinion on his play on defense onther than I like seeing him play closer to the line as oppposed to 50 yards away like last year.     My only thing with his play this year is that he's just not good at returning kicks or punts.   I don't know if we have anyone better to use, but I'd prefer if he just stay in the end zone every time and if the ball isn't in the end zone...stop hesitating before running.

[Ibleedbrown]

43 minutes ago, Mark O said:

I have no opinion on his play on defense onther than I like seeing him play closer to the line as oppposed to 50 yards away like last year.     My only thing with his play this year is that he's just not good at returning kicks or punts.   I don't know if we have anyone better to use, but I'd prefer if he just stay in the end zone every time and if the ball isn't in the end zone...stop hesitating before running.

I’ll semi ditto this. I actually thought the last few games prior to this one were step forward games with regard to him playing defense. 

Him returning kicks though? Man. It’s not good. 

I almost think it would have been a good idea to sign Berry out of camp. Or some other balls out dude who knew he had one job, to push the kickoff as far as possible without fumbling. 

Tenacity, mentality, fearlessness. Is that dude on the team? Give Josh Cribbs one roster spot to play with. He knows what it takes.

[tiamat63]

Peppers wasn't the reason we lost.  Much like anyone else, he'll be beat on occasion.     That having been said, the position/role he is being asked to play and the manner in which he can do so is production that, was mentioned April of 2017, can be had without a first round investment.     Jabrill has been OK for us, but that is about it.    Do I expect his 5th year option to be picked up?  Not so far.    But that doesn't mean these threads are warranted.     

The offense and their turnovers, plus the special teams turnover, was the reason for the loss yesterday.  

[Mark O]

41 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Peppers wasn't the reason we lost.  Much like anyone else, he'll be beat on occasion.     That having been said, the position/role he is being asked to play and the manner in which he can do so is production that, was mentioned April of 2017, can be had without a first round investment.     Jabrill has been OK for us, but that is about it.    Do I expect his 5th year option to be picked up?  Not so far.    But that doesn't mean these threads are warranted.     

The offense and their turnovers, plus the special teams turnover, was the reason for the loss yesterday.  

The offense also scored 42 points so its hard to totally blame them for a loss.   The defense couldn't stop them at all....nearly all game long.   The middle of the field was wide open all game.  The entire defense should take the blame for this.   8 point lead, less than 2 minutes and no timeouts and not only did they not stop them, they didn't come close to stopping them.  Guys were still wide open and there were still missed tackles.  

[tiamat63]

41 minutes ago, Mark O said:

The offense also scored 42 points so its hard to totally blame them for a loss.   The defense couldn't stop them at all....nearly all game long.   The middle of the field was wide open all game.  The entire defense should take the blame for this.   8 point lead, less than 2 minutes and no timeouts and not only did they not stop them, they didn't come close to stopping them.  Guys were still wide open and there were still missed tackles.  

The offense and special teams are directly responsible for at least 13 points the defense gave up (My math is pick six, then at minimum 2 FG's for the turnovers are the least amount of points the Raiders would have gotten)  I can think of being put in that exact same scenario once, we had a freshman center that snapped the ball over our QB's head 3 times.  Once for a safety, once for a TD and the other ended up on the 4 yard line.  It's incredibly frustrating and puts you on your heels as a defense.   

Yes, we put up 42 points.   But the defense wasn't the one giving the ball right back with outstanding field position.      Now did we play poorly for stretches?  Absolutely.  But if not for that pick six it should have been a 28-7 game at one point.   You really can't ask modern NFL defenses to play much better for damn near 3 quarters without them being Jacksonville.

 

 

[Mark O]

I expect the defense to make a stop when they need to and they never did.    42 points should be plenty to win on a Sunday.   Considering people around here were talking them as the greatest defense ever and coming up with cute nicknames for them, I would think that a good defense would find a way to win when given 42 points.

[Clevfan4life]

defense has alot of wear and tear on em first quarter of the season....mainly thanks to tyrods constant 3 and outs. They need a bye week bad. 

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

1 hour ago, Mark O said:

I expect the defense to make a stop when they need to and they never did.    42 points should be plenty to win on a Sunday.   Considering people around here were talking them as the greatest defense ever and coming up with cute nicknames for them, I would think that a good defense would find a way to win when given 42 points.

You realize the offensive turnovers basically gave them 21 points.

The momentum was overwhelming after the first fumble. Hostile environment, first road start, etc.

Sure it would’ve been nice to get a stop, but that offense is no slouch and we were already down a top outside corner, who got hurt making a nice play( Mitchell)

[Mark O]

26 minutes ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

You realize the offensive turnovers basically gave them 21 points.

The momentum was overwhelming after the first fumble. Hostile environment, first road start, etc.

Sure it would’ve been nice to get a stop, but that offense is no slouch and we were already down a top outside corner, who got hurt making a nice play( Mitchell)

Other than the INT that was run back, the other turnovers gave them good field position, it didn't give them any points.    Basically though proving my point, the defense couldn't get a stop at any point when it was needed.   Guess what, turnovers by the offense are going to happen, so if they do we should just assume that the other team gets a TD from them?   I thought this defense is supposed to be good?  We shouldn't expect them to make a stop...maybe hold the other team to a FG in one of those situations?

[Clevfan4life]

fire greg williams this instant. i better see the vaunted 2-5 defense out there next sunday got dammit!!!

[bjh2130]

20 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

I said I wouldn't respond to a ranting, raving, nonsense response. Which is a lot of what I got. But, is this the run you were talking about?

 

 

Video should start at 8:02

The only one I could see that he might be talking about as in Peppers missed a tackle in the play was at 4 minutes and 10 seconds.

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

22 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Basically though proving my point, the defense couldn't get a stop at any point when it was needed.   Guess what, turnovers by the offense are going to happen, so if they do we should just assume that the other team gets a TD from them?   I thought this defense is supposed to be good?  We shouldn't expect them to make a stop...maybe hold the other team to a FG in one of those situations?

A starter was knocked out and the defense wasn’t the same after.

AND the fumbles were back to back, so the Defense didn’t get a chance to catch their breathe. 

They were bad I get it, but there was a lot going against the defensive unit. TACKLING WAS DISMAL. Especially on a play on the game tying drive. 

Its just young players missing assignments and not enough reps out of their natural position. Guys were wide open.

dont forget the D did get the big stop, and the game should’ve been over.

[Clevfan4life]

dont u all rem how good our tackling's been till now? its a sure sign of a fatigued defense. That TNF game was cool and all but those short weeks get to defenses more than offensive players

[Mark O]

21 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said:

dont u all rem how good our tackling's been till now? its a sure sign of a fatigued defense. That TNF game was cool and all but those short weeks get to defenses more than offensive players

they had 10 days off after the Jets game.  Time of possession was only a 5 minute difference.  Are these guys that soft that the 5 minutes makes that much difference?  Maybe we need a new conditioning coach if that's the case.  The "defense is tired" excuse is so lame and pathetic, its not like it was a 2 to 1 time of possession like we've seen plenty of times over the years.

[Mark O]

1 hour ago, Clevfan4life said:

defense has alot of wear and tear on em first quarter of the season....mainly thanks to tyrods constant 3 and outs. They need a bye week bad. 

Good Lord....so that means in your mind its ok the defense blows for the next 2 months because they haven't had a bye week?   They just had 10 fucking days off.   How much more off time do these candy asses need in your mind?   You're Williams kid aren't you?   You defended the defense no matter how bad they were last year as well.   Giving up 45 points (38 points taking away the INT TD) is an atrocious performance.  

[Mark O]

1 hour ago, Clevfan4life said:

defense has alot of wear and tear on em first quarter of the season....mainly thanks to tyrods constant 3 and outs. They need a bye week bad. 

So....Just to be curious, I went back and looked up the time of possession for each game to see how much "wear and tear" they've had, ignoring the 10 days they just had off.

Pittspuke game.     Browns were  -30 seconds TOP

Saints game      Browns  - 5 minutes TOP

Jets game    Browns were a plus 2 minutes TOP

Raiders game   Browns were - 5 minutes TOP

 

Minus 8 1/2 minutes over 4 games which should hardly be a lot of wear and tear unless you're someone who just has to defend the defense no matter how poorly they play.

[MLD Woody]

4 hours ago, bjh2130 said:

The only one I could see that he might be talking about as in Peppers missed a tackle in the play was at 4 minutes and 10 seconds.

In his words he was talking about the drive before the TD to Nelson. I found the run he was talking about, Peppers wasn't on the field. Ward was the one that got knocked down. He knows that, and that's why he's continued to ignore me pointing it out because he won't admit he was wrong. Oh well.

I know I am just going to continue to come off as the Peppers apologist, but I don't see a missed tackle at 4:10. There were a group of defenders around Lynch, and Pep came flying in and took Lynch's legs out, eventually leading to him going to the ground. If anything we should be happy he at least threw his body in front of Lynch because it seemed like some of our players wanted nothing to do with that on Sunday 

[MLD Woody]

8 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Peppers wasn't the reason we lost.  Much like anyone else, he'll be beat on occasion.     That having been said, the position/role he is being asked to play and the manner in which he can do so is production that, was mentioned April of 2017, can be had without a first round investment.     Jabrill has been OK for us, but that is about it.    Do I expect his 5th year option to be picked up?  Not so far.    But that doesn't mean these threads are warranted.     

The offense and their turnovers, plus the special teams turnover, was the reason for the loss yesterday.  

What a fair and measured response. Thank you. I don't agree with all of it, but at least it isn't the typical "CUT PEPPERS HE'S TERRIBLE WHAT A BUST!" nonsense we see far too often on here. Like we have a section of the fanbase waiting and rooting for him to make the tiniest mistakes so they can pounce. Again, I will say that PFF rated him as our highest rated defender against the Saints. This idea that, because one TD was given up in front of him that may or may not have been his fault, he's now the worst player ever, is laughable. 

Peppers  actually played a lot less snaps in this game than Kindred. They had been rotating, but he was getting more. I'm not sure if Williams thought Kindred was a better matchup, Williams essentially benched Peppers, or if Peppers was hurt. I think he only had 30 something snaps. 

 

Returning though... I'm not sure what's going on. He was a very electric and creative returner in college. He added weight to play safety in the NFL and lost his 4.3 speed, but he was still in the 4.4 rang at the combine. It has been pretty uninspiring back there. But at this point, with all of the ST's issues  we're having, I'm not sure how much blocking he;s getting either. It is something that's hard to see from the broadcast angle, but it feels like something we aren't doing that good of a job with. On punts I get it because he's  sure handed, but if they want to try a WR or something on the kick returns it might make sense. If I remember correctly Peppers wasn't our main kick returner last year. 

[Claret&Brown]

On his returns he just looks hesitant and lacking in confidence...and the opposition sense it. On the flip side...watch other teams v us on returns...they get it and run, at speed, make bold moves and keep going forward, it all stems from how the returner sets off imo.

[flyingfooldoug]

Josh Cribbs knew how to both cover and return kicks pretty good. Maybe Peppers or the most excellent coaches we have could scrounge up some film and study it. Unless they're satisfied with the play of course.

[Canton Mike]

6 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

What a fair and measured response. Thank you. I don't agree with all of it, but at least it isn't the typical "CUT PEPPERS HE'S TERRIBLE WHAT A BUST!" nonsense we see far too often on here. Like we have a section of the fanbase waiting and rooting for him to make the tiniest mistakes so they can pounce. Again, I will say that PFF rated him as our highest rated defender against the Saints. This idea that, because one TD was given up in front of him that may or may not have been his fault, he's now the worst player ever, is laughable. 

Peppers  actually played a lot less snaps in this game than Kindred. They had been rotating, but he was getting more. I'm not sure if Williams thought Kindred was a better matchup, Williams essentially benched Peppers, or if Peppers was hurt. I think he only had 30 something snaps. 

 

Returning though... I'm not sure what's going on. He was a very electric and creative returner in college. He added weight to play safety in the NFL and lost his 4.3 speed, but he was still in the 4.4 rang at the combine. It has been pretty uninspiring back there. But at this point, with all of the ST's issues  we're having, I'm not sure how much blocking he;s getting either. It is something that's hard to see from the broadcast angle, but it feels like something we aren't doing that good of a job with. On punts I get it because he's  sure handed, but if they want to try a WR or something on the kick returns it might make sense. If I remember correctly Peppers wasn't our main kick returner last year. 

I still support Peppers, but he seems to be very tentative on returns. I'm mystified how such an aggressive player, who acted so instinctively in the past (on returns), is now so hesitant. Is he being "over coached", can't grasp a pro system, or has he just lost confidence? Can he be made, or IS he, a Josh Cribbs project? We'll see, but his return to his college form in the return game is very important.

Mike

[jrb12711]

7 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

What a fair and measured response. Thank you. I don't agree with all of it, but at least it isn't the typical "CUT PEPPERS HE'S TERRIBLE WHAT A BUST!" nonsense we see far too often on here. Like we have a section of the fanbase waiting and rooting for him to make the tiniest mistakes so they can pounce. Again, I will say that PFF rated him as our highest rated defender against the Saints. This idea that, because one TD was given up in front of him that may or may not have been his fault, he's now the worst player ever, is laughable. 

Peppers  actually played a lot less snaps in this game than Kindred. They had been rotating, but he was getting more. I'm not sure if Williams thought Kindred was a better matchup, Williams essentially benched Peppers, or if Peppers was hurt. I think he only had 30 something snaps. 

 

Returning though... I'm not sure what's going on. He was a very electric and creative returner in college. He added weight to play safety in the NFL and lost his 4.3 speed, but he was still in the 4.4 rang at the combine. It has been pretty uninspiring back there. But at this point, with all of the ST's issues  we're having, I'm not sure how much blocking he;s getting either. It is something that's hard to see from the broadcast angle, but it feels like something we aren't doing that good of a job with. On punts I get it because he's  sure handed, but if they want to try a WR or something on the kick returns it might make sense. If I remember correctly Peppers wasn't our main kick returner last year. 

This to me is the problem-put simply dude just looks slow out there. Callaway is a 4.4 guy and is blowing past people (different context, I know) but Peppers just looks slow. It almost makes me wonder if he's got a nagging injury or something, but he's becoming more of an issue each week. It may be blocking to a point, but when no one is near a guy we gotta be getting 10-12 yards out of it.

[Mark O]

10 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

 

Returning though... I'm not sure what's going on. He was a very electric and creative returner in college. He added weight to play safety in the NFL and lost his 4.3 speed, but he was still in the 4.4 rang at the combine. It has been pretty uninspiring back there. But at this point, with all of the ST's issues  we're having, I'm not sure how much blocking he;s getting either. It is something that's hard to see from the broadcast angle, but it feels like something we aren't doing that good of a job with. On punts I get it because he's  sure handed, but if they want to try a WR or something on the kick returns it might make sense. If I remember correctly Peppers wasn't our main kick returner last year. 

Could be the blocking...only real issue is the hesitating.  He has gotten less decisive when he catches the kickoffs and that probably costs a few yards.

On the punt returns, I'm fine with him just fair catching all of them, unless he's letting it go over his head for a touchback inside the 10 yard line.   To me, a punt return fumble is one of the worst turnovers since the defense just did something good and got off the field but instead they are right back on the field because our punt returner was trying to make something happen and fumbled. 

[Clevfan4life]

15 hours ago, Mark O said:

they had 10 days off after the Jets game.  Time of possession was only a 5 minute difference.  Are these guys that soft that the 5 minutes makes that much difference?  Maybe we need a new conditioning coach if that's the case.  The "defense is tired" excuse is so lame and pathetic, its not like it was a 2 to 1 time of possession like we've seen plenty of times over the years.

all teams suffer from this periodically throughout the season. Seasoned all star vets and future hof'ers have complained about the TNF turn arounds since they started. Theres a concept in sports physiology called specific damage...ive heard powerlifters give seminars on it. Any minor dmg taken during the saints game was compounded 4 days later against the jets....so 10 days was not enough. Is the team utrerly falling apart? no, they can still get out on the field...but u saw guys on both sides of the ball going down with cramps and pulls. Calloway had to pull up on that long pass and then hobbled off the field.......its pretty clear the guys are still beat up.

Saying 10 days was enough time to recover from 3 games in 11 days is spoken like someone who's never played the sport. The sport is too punishing for that kind of workload if ur expecting max output from ur players. 

[Mark O]

16 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said:

all teams suffer from this periodically throughout the season. Seasoned all star vets and future hof'ers have complained about the TNF turn arounds since they started. Theres a concept in sports physiology called specific damage...ive heard powerlifters give seminars on it. Any minor dmg taken during the saints game was compounded 4 days later against the jets....so 10 days was not enough. Is the team utrerly falling apart? no, they can still get out on the field...but u saw guys on both sides of the ball going down with cramps and pulls. Calloway had to pull up on that long pass and then hobbled off the field.......its pretty clear the guys are still beat up.

Saying 10 days was enough time to recover from 3 games in 11 days is spoken like someone who's never played the sport. The sport is too punishing for that kind of workload if ur expecting max output from ur players. 

 Boo fucking hoo....   play the game and stop making excuses for the defense not being able to hold an 8 point lead with under two minutes to play.   As I've already pointed out to you, they haven't been on the field all that long, it was just another excuse by you with no facts to back it up.   The offense put 42 points on the board and the defense couldn't make a stop or a play when needed. 

[browns52]

On 9/30/2018 at 10:14 PM, Tacosman said:

nonsense....he was way too far back, reacted way too late.....why did he react so late?  Jordy is in front of him and he's already in the damn end zone 3 yards deep just standing there.  Jordy isnt going to run by him and catch the damn ball 15 yards deep in the end zone.  That was a terrible play by peppers.....he's been a disaster. this year even more than last.  Slow as Sheet non-playmaker.  

no taco...i made a comment on this on another thread....our dbs are too Shmucking small and not athletic enough...they cannot tackle...or jump high enough etc etc...the db you are talking about read the play properly....he just got manhandled....yes jordy was behind him but he still  made up the ground that if he was athletic enough, he still could have defended the play....and yes peppers sucks plain and simple...what a bust.......

[MLD Woody]

https://mobile.twitter.com/clevezirm/status/1046786034623811584

 

3 returns from Sunday. Could Pep have done better on the 2nd, and maybe the 1st? Sure. Having top end elusiveness there would be great. Might be possible to make something out of it. But that blocking is pretty terrible too, especially on the 3rd return. Multiple guys come right through. It seems like there is an overarching coaching issue with our special teams. 

[SD_Tom]

The special teams is a clusterfork of epic proportions

[DieHardBrownsFan]

We should just trade Peppers for a 6th round pick and be done with the slug.