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5 Observations from "The Tie"

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1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Block was late and far enough away from the end of the play that it was "unnecessary"... thus the name of the penalty. ;)

Swap uniforms and we'd be calling it a "cheap shot".

I think JG was frustrated and took a shot at the source.

Still one of those calls that seems totally unnecessary.   Considering a late hit on the actual receiver just a couple plays later went uncalled.    Looked a lot like a flop by the Steelers defender as well, so good for him, he got the call. 

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15 hours ago, Mark O said:

I completely agree.    As bad as the offensive line looked yesterday, I'd prefer Baker not see the field for a good long time, preferably not till next season.    Tim Couch is the perfect analogy.

This OL though is miles ahead of the OL that Couch played behind, even if they did not have a good game on Sunday.

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3 hours ago, Dste Ace said:

I agree with this except that I would say we keep getting the WRONG coach. The Browns fall into the trap that a lot of teams that are searching for a coach fall into: hiring the 'hot' coordinator/assistant coach expecting that his qualities as an assistant will automatically transfer to head coaching success.

The list of successful coordinators who didn't make the transfer to successful head coach is long and not limited to: Lindy Infante, Richie Pettibone, Chris Palmer, pretty much everyone who has coached under Belicheck---and, I'm afraid, Hue. One notable exception is Bill Cowher. He succeeded Chuck Noll and you saw an immediate difference on the field.

Yes, Bill Cowher succeeded Chuck Noll.  But lets think about this.  How many head coaches did the steelers have since Noll?  Two.   Noll had a system that he ran with success.  Cowher and Tomlin came in and followed that pattern.  Both won Superbowls.  Neither could come into Cleveland and win one here without time to build the team (at least 5 years).  Hue might not be the coach to do this in Cleveland, but until you give him time, you will never find out.  Romeo Crennel had 5 year I believe, but we know he was not the guy.  So, how many head coaches have we had in Cleveland since '99 other than Romeo? Coaches need time to build and organization.  Until we give them time, I'll be on this board saying the same thing. 

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16 hours ago, Louisville Slugger said:

I think we need to start Baker and I've thought so since the preseason. I think Tyrod is a solid QB in the right offense but Haley doesn't play to his strengths.

After 1 game this is really what you think?  Especially with the Steelers constantly bringing pressure?  Do really think Baker could've avoided the blitz as well as Taylor and made better throws under constant pressure?  I admit there were some throws that I thought Baker could've made better than Tyrod, but putting him the game so early spells disaster.  If he fails, then we're right back to where we started.  I might be the only one on this board who wants Tyrod to start all games and let Baker learn.  Of course, if we lose the next 5 games, then of course we need to start Baker.  I don't see that happening especially with this D.  And considering we won't see the Pittsburg D through most of the remaing games, we should be able to get the ball to our receivers.  And don't forget that Gordon wasn't even with the team through preseason.  This was basically his first preseason game.  His game will improve.  

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1 hour ago, dawg2fan said:

After 1 game this is really what you think?  Especially with the Steelers constantly bringing pressure?  Do really think Baker could've avoided the blitz as well as Taylor and made better throws under constant pressure?  I admit there were some throws that I thought Baker could've made better than Tyrod, but putting him the game so early spells disaster.  If he fails, then we're right back to where we started.  I might be the only one on this board who wants Tyrod to start all games and let Baker learn.  Of course, if we lose the next 5 games, then of course we need to start Baker.  I don't see that happening especially with this D.  And considering we won't see the Pittsburg D through most of the remaing games, we should be able to get the ball to our receivers.  And don't forget that Gordon wasn't even with the team through preseason.  This was basically his first preseason game.  His game will improve.  

Yes after 1 game and all preseason. Tyrod is slow to react and is dumping the ball off. It's his first year in this offense just like the rookie. Baker has shown the ability to hit guys with timing and in stride at all 3 levels.

Baker also knows how to manipulate the pocket, which is what separate the men from the boys at the QB position. As long as there isn't a free rusher Mayfield can dance around in phone booth and make his offensive line look good.

I think Baker is mentally tough enough to take the lumps right now and I'm not concerned about getting him hurt, its football. Baker just needs seasoning.

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1 hour ago, Louisville Slugger said:

Tyrod is slow to react and is dumping the ball off.

Would it interest you to know that TT had the highest percentage of passes over 20 yards in week 1?

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He also threw the ball 40 times and we were playing from behind the majority of the game. Not hard to figure out why

8 minutes ago, choco said:

Would it interest you to know that TT had the highest percentage of passes over 20 yards in week 1?

 

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5 hours ago, dawg2fan said:

Yes, Bill Cowher succeeded Chuck Noll.  But lets think about this.  How many head coaches did the steelers have since Noll?  Two.   Noll had a system that he ran with success.  Cowher and Tomlin came in and followed that pattern.  Both won Superbowls.  Neither could come into Cleveland and win one here without time to build the team (at least 5 years).  Hue might not be the coach to do this in Cleveland, but until you give him time, you will never find out.  Romeo Crennel had 5 year I believe, but we know he was not the guy.  So, how many head coaches have we had in Cleveland since '99 other than Romeo? Coaches need time to build and organization.  Until we give them time, I'll be on this board saying the same thing. 

I do understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that with the right coach you will see an immediate difference/impact on the field. Yes, Cowher was given time but his intensity and presence had an immediate effect on the team, an effect which was immediately noticeable on the field. I have no problem sticking with a coach--it's just that there is a fine line between establishing continuity and continuity for continuity's sake. Let me put it this way: if you hire a shite, 5 years later your still going to have a pile of shite.

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5 hours ago, dawg2fan said:

Yes, Bill Cowher succeeded Chuck Noll.  But lets think about this.  How many head coaches did the steelers have since Noll?  Two.   Noll had a system that he ran with success.  Cowher and Tomlin came in and followed that pattern.  Both won Superbowls.  Neither could come into Cleveland and win one here without time to build the team (at least 5 years).  Hue might not be the coach to do this in Cleveland, but until you give him time, you will never find out.  Romeo Crennel had 5 year I believe, but we know he was not the guy.  So, how many head coaches have we had in Cleveland since '99 other than Romeo? Coaches need time to build and organization.  Until we give them time, I'll be on this board saying the same thing. 

He's  gotten two years, and came up with the worst record as a head coach in the history of the NFL. He's getting a third with offensive and defensive coordinators with previous head coaching experience. Dorsey upgraded the roster with a QB that took a team to the playoffs, a pro bowl WR in Landry- another if Josh can stay out of trouble, a near 1,000 yard rusher in Hyde. And a upgraded defensive secondary. There HAS to be significant improvement.  How much is something Haslam will decide, or he won't get a fourth year. We're not going to be spinning our wheels with mediocrity or bad, like Mike Browns does in Cincinnati with Marvin Lewis. 

2 hours ago, choco said:

Would it interest you to know that TT had the highest percentage of passes over 20 yards in week 1?

Sssshhhhh- don't tell that to Ghoolie.  :D  

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4 hours ago, hoorta said:

We're not going to be spinning our wheels with mediocrity or bad, like Mike Browns does in Cincinnati with Marvin Lewis. 

I agree that we shouldn't keep Hue if he keeps showing that the team produces only thanks to each player's talent, and not also thanks to his coaching skills too. For me it doesn't look like he gets the best of this team. 

But calling Marvin Lewis mediocre or bad... It's the best thing that has happened to the Bengals in the XXI century. Probably his time is over, but let's not forget how many times Cincinnati has reached the playoffs under his command.

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55 minutes ago, Nero said:

I agree that we shouldn't keep Hue if he keeps showing that the team produces only thanks to each player's talent, and not also thanks to his coaching skills too. For me it doesn't look like he gets the best of this team. 

But calling Marvin Lewis mediocre or bad... It's the best thing that has happened to the Bengals in the XXI century. Probably his time is over, but let's not forget how many times Cincinnati has reached the playoffs under his command.

The Cincinnati Bengals scouting department consists of three guys huddled around a draft guide bought at a gas station. 

The city of Cincinnati should tear out the fountain in Fountain Square and replace it with a statue of Marvin Lewis and redub it Marvin Square for making that team look like a viable NFL franchise. 

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My 4 observations:

1. Taylor is the perfect QB to be behind that line.  We don't want to make Baker the new Tim Ouch. Taylor is like Mike Vick with Colt McCoy's arm.

2. The Browns have an amazing amount of player talent and Williams and Haley are good, but Hugh does not run a disciplined team. I'm not willing to give him 5 years.  We have seen enough.

3. The Steelers have good talent and coaching but neither Ben nor Brown was ready and Bell was not there, so there you have the 3 best guys on offense who were not happening yet.  Two of the INT's were from Ben trying to force a pass to Brown and one of the fumbles came from Bell's backup.

4. Both teams will get better.  PIT will get a lot better but I don't know what CLE's potential is. Yeh, CLE will win games and a tie is certainly an improvement over 0-16. Count it as a win.  In Pittsburgh it feels like a loss to us.

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On 9/10/2018 at 4:31 AM, 7moses7 said:

Have to agree a good QB wins this game . How many times was Josh Gordon in single coverage and T Rod never changed the play or even looked his way pre snap

Even the announcers said it multiple times.  

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43 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

Even the announcers said it multiple times.  

And if our coaches did not pick this up during a game, that says a lot to me about how poor they are in live games. Why was this not being communicated to the QB? And will they fix it in film study this week? We shall see.

EDIT: But on the plus side for the long run, this is what Baker DOES pick up on without help from coaches.

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4 hours ago, finger Mellon said:

My 4 observations:

1. Taylor is the perfect QB to be behind that line.  We don't want to make Baker the new Tim Ouch. Taylor is like Mike Vick with Colt McCoy's arm.

 

2. The Browns have an amazing amount of player talent and Williams and Haley are good, but Hugh does not run a disciplined team. I'm not willing to give him 5 years.  We have seen enough.

 

3. The Steelers have good talent and coaching but neither Ben nor Brown was ready and Bell was not there, so there you have the 3 best guys on offense who were not happening yet.  Two of the INT's were from Ben trying to force a pass to Brown and one of the fumbles came from Bell's backup.

 

4. Both teams will get better.  PIT will get a lot better but I don't know what CLE's potential is. Yeh, CLE will win games and a tie is certainly an improvement over 0-16. Count it as a win.  In Pittsburgh it feels like a loss to us.

 

I DO NOT want my rookie, #1 overall pick QB, behind THAT line right now.  I'm sorry, I just don't.  This is the EXACT reason I was telling anybody who would listen to throw the ENTIRE checkbook at Alex Smith during the offseason.  Literally make him the highest paid QB for the 2018 season, I DON'T CARE.  Alex Smith WINS that game, and probably many others.  Now, obviously there's no way to PROVE that, but it's what I believe.  

Also, I don’t want my prized rookie QB playing in that weather for his FIRST game.  Does he have to eventually play in the muck and filth?  Yeah, but weather like THIS is kind of rare, ya know?  In my demented mind, the wet and sloppy field conditions make it too easy to have an injury, and putting Baker out against the Steelers, in THAT weather, for the first game of his season and his first game???  NOPE, NOPE, NOPE.  As bad as Tyrod was Sunday, he STILL played well enough to win the game.  Tyrod doesn’t play special teams.  Tyrod doesn’t block for FG’s.  Tyrod doesn’t kick.  Tyrod doesn’t block people in the back when the interception is made and the returner is virtually out of bounds and cost his team a giant 10+ yards with the GAME ON THE LINE. 

I’m not going to say Hue runs an undisciplined team.  Yes, we had a bunch of penalties.  Yes, 4 or 5 were the vaunted “pre-snap” variety.  Would you call the Steelers an undisciplined team?  Because I believe they had about the same amount of penalties.  Maybe not the “pre-snap” kind, but they had a BUNCH of penalties, and several very stupid ones.  Hue Jackson can’t beat whatever dark force looms over our franchise.  Hue Jackson can’t reverse the tide of terrible luck and awful outcomes.  And Hue Jackson doesn’t kick FG’s.  I thought his decision to start Desmond Harrison was brilliant.  Yes, Harrison struggled mightily in the first half, and guess what?  He’s an undrafted FA, he wasn’t going to come out and start ROOT-HOGGING the Steelers from the first snap.  But guess what?  He looked pretty ok in the second half, and the raw ability this guy possesses is seldom seen in the NFL.  Think I’m wrong?  I’m not.  My source?  Joe effing Thomas.  It will take a force of incredible magnitude to break our downtrodden franchise away from the perpetual stink that’s followed us for 17 years.  That force could be Baker, but I don’t want to rush him in just yet.  Not if we can help it.  Fair or not, Tyrod probably has until week 4 to prove he’s the guy for this season.  I could see us making the switch to Baker after the Jets game because we’d have a mini bye week until the next game, and that would give Baker a bit more time to get some reps in.  I just hope that doesn’t happen, and I want Tyrod to be the guy, at least for a little while.

Both teams will likely get better, and the one thing that will kill any team is an injury to a key position.  We just had our first one with Ogbah, and we’re going to see just how that affects us (here’s a hint…it’s NOT good).  Right now our biggest disadvantage is our schedule.  We were obviously 0-16 last year, and if you told me at the miserable end to the 2017 season that we’d start out with two PLAYOFF teams and then after traveling home from New Orleans we’d have a THURSDAY NIGHT game….I’d call you a liar.  Yet, somehow that’s how it is for us. 

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18 hours ago, hoorta said:

He's  gotten two years, and came up with the worst record as a head coach in the history of the NFL. He's getting a third with offensive and defensive coordinators with previous head coaching experience. Dorsey upgraded the roster with a QB that took a team to the playoffs, a pro bowl WR in Landry- another if Josh can stay out of trouble, a near 1,000 yard rusher in Hyde. And a upgraded defensive secondary. There HAS to be significant improvement.  How much is something Haslam will decide, or he won't get a fourth year. We're not going to be spinning our wheels with mediocrity or bad, like Mike Browns does in Cincinnati with Marvin Lewis. 

I couldn't agree with you more Hoorta, but we know our Oline needs help.  Let's hope the they learn to play together soon and who knows how good this team can be.  It doesn't matter who our QB is, without time they will all suffer the same fate, which includes Baker.  All either QB need is another second or two.  Now did TT make some throws that could've been better, absolutely.  But if you get your bell rung after a few hits by the Steelers D, I don't see too many QBs that can recover.  Other than an elite QB (and I don't think Baker is there yet, but he will be), which there is only about 3 or 4 in the entire league, no one can handle that.  Our D could end up top 10 this year before its said and done.  I predicted 5 to 7 wins for us this year, but not if the Oline can't protect.  

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On 9/12/2018 at 9:37 AM, TexasAg1969 said:

And if our coaches did not pick this up during a game, that says a lot to me about how poor they are in live games. Why was this not being communicated to the QB? And will they fix it in film study this week? We shall see.

EDIT: But on the plus side for the long run, this is what Baker DOES pick up on without help from coaches.

I think our coaches DID pick it up, and we took a few shots and had plays for a few others.  The long running TD from Tyrod is an excellent example.  If you've seen the "all 22" camera angle on that play, you'll see Darren Fells beating his guy from the get-go and the safety learning towards the opposite side of the field.  Tyrod immediately looks to that side, which draws the safety (I think it was Gordon), but didn't look left while he still had a little time before the pocket collapsed.  Tyrod got lucky this time and made an INCREDIBLE play to run it in, but he still took a hard hit, and worst of all, he didn't deliver the ball to an open guy.  Tyrod not scanning the field and failing to deliver the ball to open receivers facing man coverage was just about everyone's biggest fear with him.  It's the reason the Bills let him go in the first place, and it reared it's ugly head week 1.  

As the announcers stated during the game, Tyrod historically struggles against man coverage and delivering accurate balls to receivers who are barely open.  "Barely Open" is OPEN in the NFL, btw.  Anyway, the field conditions didn't help anybody, but this week we play in a dome against a defense who plays a TON of man coverage, AND they just got torched by a backup QB to the tune of 417 yards passing on around 20 completions.  20 COMPLETIONS and 400 yards?!!  It's safe to say our receivers will get open, what we don't know is whether or not Tyrod can execute.  Our defense will NOT be holding the Saints to 20 points, I can pretty much promise you that.  We're going to have to score 30 to win IMO.  We already know we're going to lose the special teams battle (as we do every week, duh), so we're going to HAVE to win the offensive battle.  

The fact that the Saints play so much man coverage is why I almost thought Hue Jackson and Todd Haley would start Baker.  Baker would excel at delivering accurate balls to receivers facing man coverage, and it's likely that Duke Johnson would be his best friend.  The Saints have basically one pass rushing terror, and that's about it.  We contain him, and we can have a decent pocket.  It's on the road, which isn't ideal for a rookie QB, and the Super Dome is about as loud as it gets, but this could be a game where we look back and say, "What would've it been like if Baker played?"

Just like the last one.

Make no mistake, I'm the biggest supporter of "Play Tyrod for as long as we can", but we're going to find out this weekend if that's the right choice.  If Tyrod lays the egg, or if the film shows him missing big opportunities, he's in trouble.  You're not going to beat a team like the Saints with FG's, Tyrod is going to HAVE to stick it in the end zone.  If I was a betting man, I'd say our Browns are in DEEP crud.  I hope I'm wrong, heck, I'm GOING to the darn game with my father.  I'd LOVE a victory.  But we're not going to win, at least as the game plays out in my head.  Saints 31   Browns 17

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On 9/10/2018 at 8:16 PM, choco said:

Nfl issued an apology, said that hit shouldn't have been a penalty

 

If the NFL would ever show us something different than "IT'S ONLY CLEVELAND BROWNS SO IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER" I might actually take their apology serious.  They can stick that apology where the sun doesn't shine.  Ever notice some of the beautiful Hail Mary passes Aaron Rodgers chucks for game winning scores?  Isn't it amazing the NFL never finds any reason to notice any linemen holding, receivers pushing off defenders or explore any ticky-tacky ways to ruin it all?    Yeah who wants to be the bastard in black and white to ruin that? 

But man there was no hesitation to throw a flag on a guy hitting the biggest and strongest QB with a reputation for breaking countless tackles over the years.  There's our difference between a 4 point win and a tie game if Pitt only kicks a FG without that bs call on Garrett.  We have a tie with an imaginary * next to it...  Gee, thanks NFL.

 

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6 hours ago, Flugel said:

If the NFL would ever show us something different than "IT'S ONLY CLEVELAND BROWNS SO IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER" I might actually take their apology serious.  They can stick that apology where the sun doesn't shine.  Ever notice some of the beautiful Hail Mary passes Aaron Rodgers chucks for game winning scores?  Isn't it amazing the NFL never finds any reason to notice any linemen holding, receivers pushing off defenders or explore any ticky-tacky ways to ruin it all?    Yeah who wants to be the bastard in black and white to ruin that? 

But man there was no hesitation to throw a flag on a guy hitting the biggest and strongest QB with a reputation for breaking countless tackles over the years.  There's our difference between a 4 point win and a tie game if Pitt only kicks a FG without that bs call on Garrett.  We have a tie with an imaginary * next to it...  Gee, thanks NFL.

 

Bingo.

I've always said the NFL has certain teams with tons of leeway (Green bay, Pittsburgh, Denver, NYG, New England), and 3 teams with absolutely no help (Cleveland, Detroit, Oakland)

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We're not the only team to get jobbed Week 1.

The league is all about parity. To systematically favor any team(s) would be counterproductive.

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