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52 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

What do you expect when you make lame excuses? Every team has had injuries to key  starting players (including OSU...I mean, remember that last year it was the backup QB that finished the FMU game, and remember that Cardale Jones was like 3rd string QB, after Miller and Barrett a few years ago...etc. etc.)

And then there is this "bad luck"  and "disadvantages". ...and Brady Hoke.  :blink:

Why don't you just give the real, honest, excuse:  You just are not good enough.   Go ahead, say it.....thatta boy, go on.  You can do it Cinderelly, you can do it. 

The truth hurts 

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2 hours ago, wargograw said:

I’m not sure you can play the Hoke card in year 4 man, especially when you’ve already had two 10-win seasons. 

I'm not "playing the Brady Hoke card". I said partial responsibility is held by both staffs. Without getting into all of the details, past recruiting failures by previous regimes made the more recent recruiting failures by current the current regime even worse. Lost redshirts, upperclassmen depth, a terrible transition class, etc. It all effects the current situation, it's just a fact. I'm not playing any card or putting this squarely on Hoke, but I follow the team very closely and have a pretty good understanding of its recent history.

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That’s pretty much the definition of playing the Hoke card. Unless you wanna give a specific example, that doesn’t hold water for me (especially when Michigan signed a class ranked in the twenty-somethings last year).

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1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

I'm not "playing the Brady Hoke card". I said partial responsibility is held by both staffs. Without getting into all of the details, past recruiting failures by previous regimes made the more recent recruiting failures by current the current regime even worse. Lost redshirts, upperclassmen depth, a terrible transition class, etc. It all effects the current situation, it's just a fact. I'm not playing any card or putting this squarely on Hoke, but I follow the team very closely and have a pretty good understanding of its recent history.

Yea, I don't think anyone is seeing it. Your recruiting failures (assuming that you are saying that they have had recruiting failures....not sure how to interpret what you are saying there), are partially due to a guy that has not been with your program in 4+ years.  ANY issues that affected that program by Hoke woulda/shoulda/coulda been rectified now 4 years later.

Let's just compare:   Nick Saban, in his third year , won the National championship, after Bama had been like 5-7 the year before he got there.  (and he won the national title in his 4th year at LSU).

Urban Meyer, in his third year at OSU won the National Championship, after the team had been 6-7 the year before he got there.  He also won the National Title in his second and 4th years at Florida,  

Harbaugh's record, on the other hand, is going backward.   10-3 his first two years, 8-5 last year.  Not sure he can improve this year. He may be the anti-Saban.....a better NFL coach than he is a college coach.  Note, he has really only had one stellar year as a college HC, at Stanford, going 12-1 once.  

YearSchoolGWLTPctSRSSOSAP PreAP HighAP PostBowlNotes

2007Stanford12480.333-1.106.57

2008Stanford12570.417-0.043.79

2009Stanford13850.61510.883.4214Sun Bowl-L

2010Stanford131210.92321.805.0344Orange Bowl-W

2015Michigan131030.76916.344.571212Citrus Bowl-W

2016Michigan131030.76917.564.797210Orange Bowl-L

2017Michigan13850.61513.446.98117Outback Bowl-L

2018Michigan1010.0000.007.0014148 YrsOverall9057330.6339.865.272-34

YrsStanford5029210.5807.894.701-14 YrsMichigan4028120.70011.845.841-2

Maybe, just maybe, he could end up the next HC of the Bengals, or the Bucs,   whose coaches I think are on the hot seat. (not the Browns)

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6 hours ago, wargograw said:

That’s pretty much the definition of playing the Hoke card. Unless you wanna give a specific example, that doesn’t hold water for me (especially when Michigan signed a class ranked in the twenty-somethings last year).

Again, no it isn't. It's not "playing a card". It is just stating facts.

Going back to the tail end of the RRod era through the Hoke era, OL recruiting was pretty bad. This caused us to have to start a true freshman out of position at  LT, Mason Cole (who I believe is now starting as a rookie for the Cardinals at C). If there was normal depth, Cole would have been redshirted, as are most OL, allowing him to still be playing this season. 

The following season was Hoke's great fall, and the recruiting class reflected that. We had one tackle destined for the NFL and he had a career ending injury. Harbaugh attempted to pick up the pieces in a 3 week transition class. 

The next class, Harbaugh's first "full" class (though, the staff is still a little behind as most recruiting starts before a player's Sr year) has its own issues. Those are on Harbaugh. A late decommitment and passing on an OT. That would prove to be  disastrous after the career ending injury above. The following year was similar, though not as bad. They aimed high and couldn't walk away with any big names. We would eventually fire our OL coach...

 

As for last year's class, that shouldn't matter. True freshman should very, very, very rarely ever start at OL, and when they do its usually out of desperation, not talent. Linemen usually need that year to bulk up. Even then, we might turn to one of the true freshmen to try and start this year (desperation). But last year's class being the worst of Harbuagh's main three so far doesn't really play into the situation we're in now. 

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1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

Again, no it isn't. It's not "playing a card". It is just stating facts.

Going back to the tail end of the RRod era through the Hoke era, OL recruiting was pretty bad. This caused us to have to start a true freshman out of position at  LT, Mason Cole (who I believe is now starting as a rookie for the Cardinals at C). If there was normal depth, Cole would have been redshirted, as are most OL, allowing him to still be playing this season. 

The following season was Hoke's great fall, and the recruiting class reflected that. We had one tackle destined for the NFL and he had a career ending injury. Harbaugh attempted to pick up the pieces in a 3 week transition class. 

The next class, Harbaugh's first "full" class (though, the staff is still a little behind as most recruiting starts before a player's Sr year) has its own issues. Those are on Harbaugh. A late decommitment and passing on an OT. That would prove to be  disastrous after the career ending injury above. The following year was similar, though not as bad. They aimed high and couldn't walk away with any big names. We would eventually fire our OL coach...

 

As for last year's class, that shouldn't matter. True freshman should very, very, very rarely ever start at OL, and when they do its usually out of desperation, not talent. Linemen usually need that year to bulk up. Even then, we might turn to one of the true freshmen to try and start this year (desperation). But last year's class being the worst of Harbuagh's main three so far doesn't really play into the situation we're in now. 

Every player on this year team was recruited by Harbau so to blame anyone else is ridiculous 

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8 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Every player on this year team was recruited by Harbau so to blame anyone else is ridiculous 

Sigh

That's just factually incorrect.

But you have a bad habit of trying to speak like an authority on things you know nothing about. Which is why I have read or responded to most of your posts before this and will continue that going forward. I just had to chime in here as you're clearly wrong, and it would have taken you 30 seconds to check. Smh

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3 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

Sigh

That's just factually incorrect.

Well, OK,   how many like 5th year seniors are still on that team? anyone on that team would have to be a 5th year senior to have been a Hoke recruit.  So prove to me that I am factually incorrect.  Give the names of those players on the FMU roster that were recruits of Hoke that are still there.

But you have a bad habit of trying to speak like an authority on things you know nothing about. Which is why I have read or responded to most of your posts before this and will continue that going forward. I just had to chime in here as you're clearly wrong, and it would have taken you 30 seconds to check. Smh

I know that it has been 4-5 years now since Hoke was the FMU coach. I know that if there are any Hoke recruits still left on the team that you could probably count them on one hand.  Are you claiming that those Hoke recruits have infected the other  80 or so players on that team with their losing disease?  If so, then why is Harbaugh keeping them on...if he, and you and the rest of the team and all the alumni and staff, and fans have such disdain for those players? 

And then ask, if those recruits of Hoke's on the team are so bad, then why has Harbaugh been unable  to coach them up and to cure them of the Hoke stain upon them? 

So....go ahead, list the names of all the players still on the FMU roster that were there before Harbaugh came.  Prove what you claim.

 

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On 9/5/2018 at 8:18 PM, MLD Woody said:

Again, no it isn't. It's not "playing a card". It is just stating facts.

Going back to the tail end of the RRod era through the Hoke era, OL recruiting was pretty bad. This caused us to have to start a true freshman out of position at  LT, Mason Cole (who I believe is now starting as a rookie for the Cardinals at C). If there was normal depth, Cole would have been redshirted, as are most OL, allowing him to still be playing this season. 

The following season was Hoke's great fall, and the recruiting class reflected that. We had one tackle destined for the NFL and he had a career ending injury. Harbaugh attempted to pick up the pieces in a 3 week transition class. 

The next class, Harbaugh's first "full" class (though, the staff is still a little behind as most recruiting starts before a player's Sr year) has its own issues. Those are on Harbaugh. A late decommitment and passing on an OT. That would prove to be  disastrous after the career ending injury above. The following year was similar, though not as bad. They aimed high and couldn't walk away with any big names. We would eventually fire our OL coach...

 

As for last year's class, that shouldn't matter. True freshman should very, very, very rarely ever start at OL, and when they do its usually out of desperation, not talent. Linemen usually need that year to bulk up. Even then, we might turn to one of the true freshmen to try and start this year (desperation). But last year's class being the worst of Harbuagh's main three so far doesn't really play into the situation we're in now. 

Call it what you want. Saying some of Harbaugh’s failures in preparing this particular team are in any way Brady Hoke’s fault is “playing the Hoke card.”

 

So a guy not being able to play his 5th year is a good reason? Seriously? Most of the big time programs have very few guys staying until their 5th year. They’re either run off before then or go to the NFL. 

 

Everyone does the whole transition class thing. That’s no excuse. 

 

Every class matters. The effects of depth trickle upward. The true freshmen push the 2nd stringers which makes the 2nd stringers better which pushes the starters. Gotta sign a top flight class every year. Nevertheless, my point was that I might give a pass on Hoke’s bad recruiting IF Harbaugh was signing consistent top 5 classes. He’s not, so I won’t. If Jimbo ever signed a twenty-something class, I’d panic a decent amount. 

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3 hours ago, wargograw said:

Call it what you want. Saying some of Harbaugh’s failures in preparing this particular team are in any way Brady Hoke’s fault is “playing the Hoke card.”

 

So a guy not being able to play his 5th year is a good reason? Seriously? Most of the big time programs have very few guys staying until their 5th year. They’re either run off before then or go to the NFL. 

 

Everyone does the whole transition class thing. That’s no excuse. 

 

Every class matters. The effects of depth trickle upward. The true freshmen push the 2nd stringers which makes the 2nd stringers better which pushes the starters. Gotta sign a top flight class every year. Nevertheless, my point was that I might give a pass on Hoke’s bad recruiting IF Harbaugh was signing consistent top 5 classes. He’s not, so I won’t. If Jimbo ever signed a twenty-something class, I’d panic a decent amount. 

You can call it what you want then to make it sound bad, that's fine. We clearly aren't going to agree. If you refuse to acknowledge the context and recent history leading to where we are now, alright.

Wisconsin, which consistently produces a very good OL, has an entire starting lineup with a Redshirt. Two starters are Redshirt Srs. 

I'm sorry, but no. Last year's recruiting class, and the true freshmen OL in it, are not expected to play the vast majority of the time. They are not expected to play a major role in this current years OL depth and performance. 

 

Harbaugh has had 3 full recruiting classes (though even the 2016 class was working from behind some).

According to Rivals:

- 2016 - 4th

- 2017 - 4th

- 2018 - 24th 

2018 was obviously not great. Regardless, I think you're trying to make Harbaugh's recruiting seem worse than it is, basing it much more on his recent class. No reason to panic.

In that time A&M was 17, 10 and 16. We'll see how much Jimbo can affect that. 

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3 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

You can call it what you want then to make it sound bad, that's fine. We clearly aren't going to agree. If you refuse to acknowledge the context and recent history leading to where we are now, alright.

Wisconsin, which consistently produces a very good OL, has an entire starting lineup with a Redshirt. Two starters are Redshirt Srs. 

I'm sorry, but no. Last year's recruiting class, and the true freshmen OL in it, are not expected to play the vast majority of the time. They are not expected to play a major role in this current years OL depth and performance. 

 

Harbaugh has had 3 full recruiting classes (though even the 2016 class was working from behind some).

According to Rivals:

- 2016 - 4th

- 2017 - 4th

- 2018 - 24th 

2018 was obviously not great. Regardless, I think you're trying to make Harbaugh's recruiting seem worse than it is, basing it much more on his recent class. No reason to panic.

In that time A&M was 17, 10 and 16. We'll see how much Jimbo can affect that. 

Wisconsin is a mostly white nerd team that will never win a national championship. Is that your goal? How many 5th year seniors starting do Bama, Ohio State, Georgia, etc. have? Don’t look to Wisconsin as an example if you want to win really big. If you want to win 10 games a year, then go emulate Wisconsin. Otherwise not relevant. 

 

I never said true freshmen OL should play (though again, many of the big time squads have had those). 

 

And I concede A&M didn’t recruit enough (in fact wrote lengthy blog posts about as much on NSD both 2015 and 16). Jimbo will affect that don’t you worry. Sumlin was an overrated recruiter, never addressed needs, and loved to load up on 4 star receivers while they rest of the SEC stacked the front 7 . 

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According to Ourlads, Bama has 2 redshirt seniors on the starting lineup. Ohio State has 4. Auburn and Georgia have 1. Clemson 4. Oklahoma 3. Notre Dame has ZERO.

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2 hours ago, wargograw said:

According to Ourlads, Bama has 2 redshirt seniors on the starting lineup. Ohio State has 4. Auburn and Georgia have 1. Clemson 4. Oklahoma 3. Notre Dame has ZERO.

How many Does Michigan have

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11 hours ago, wargograw said:

Wisconsin is a mostly white nerd team that will never win a national championship. Is that your goal? How many 5th year seniors starting do Bama, Ohio State, Georgia, etc. have? Don’t look to Wisconsin as an example if you want to win really big. If you want to win 10 games a year, then go emulate Wisconsin. Otherwise not relevant. 

 

I never said true freshmen OL should play (though again, many of the big time squads have had those). 

 

And I concede A&M didn’t recruit enough (in fact wrote lengthy blog posts about as much on NSD both 2015 and 16). Jimbo will affect that don’t you worry. Sumlin was an overrated recruiter, never addressed needs, and loved to load up on 4 star receivers while they rest of the SEC stacked the front 7 . 

"White nerd team"... Really? Smh. 

I was only referring to their OL btw, which one s 100% worth emulating. Team's without bagmen generally find those redshirts for OL very useful. 

Michigan has has true Freshman OL play too. Very very rarely. Guys like Jake Long. It is something that is almost always a bad idea. 

This is just degrading as a conversation now though (as Gip keeps chirping up on the sides). Michigan's current OL predicament is partially on Hoke, partially on Harbaugh. You can either take that from the fan and alum that has followed this all very closely for years and years.... or you could just think what you want. It isn't worth the dead end back and forth we've gotten to now.

 

Good luck against Clemson. I'll legitimately be rooting for you guys as the underdog. 

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1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

"White nerd team"... Really? Smh. 

I was only referring to their OL btw, which one s 100% worth emulating. Team's without bagmen generally find those redshirts for OL very useful. 

Michigan has has true Freshman OL play too. Very very rarely. Guys like Jake Long. It is something that is almost always a bad idea. 

This is just degrading as a conversation now though (as Gip keeps chirping up on the sides). Michigan's current OL predicament is partially on Hoke, partially on Harbaugh. You can either take that from the fan and alum that has followed this all very closely for years and years.... or you could just think what you want. It isn't worth the dead end back and forth we've gotten to now.

 

Good luck against Clemson. I'll legitimately be rooting for you guys as the underdog. 

It degrades as a conversation because your claims are specious,  and it is just you making excuses that have nothing to do with reality.   Again...NAME all those players who are starters  on that team that were recruited by Hoke, and not by Harbaugh!    If there are any, which I doubt, then Harbaugh must have seen something in them worthy of keeping.  And that is on him.  And if they are not performing well, then that is on him as well because he has had like 4 years now to coach them. 

I mean,  that would be like us blaming Luke Fickell for the fact that the Buckeyes did so poorly vs. Iowa last year.   

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nick looking his usual today. Except on one play they're going to clown him so hard for in film on mon. Lined up over tackle with a TE shading him to his right. He noobed it and never checked the TE off.....got absolutely stole on by said TE. snotbubbled. Straight down on his a.ss before he even got to engage with the tackle. 😁

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