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Jonathan Paul Manziel

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I noticed yesterday that a lot of people think Manziel could be the Browns first pick in the 2014 Draft (although the three mock drafts I just saw from CBS Sports and Sports Illustrated didn't have CLE taking a QB there) (Added: Ah, wait, there,... a guy from Bleacher Report has Manziel going to Cleveland.). I haven't followed Manziel that closely, although I've obviously heard the major headlines. I was hoping maybe people could post some facts and opinions about him (positive and negative) to catch me up in case he does end up being the pick. Is he "college good" or "NFL good"? What's with the attitude/behavior issues, and are those going to be a problem in the NFL? Is he the kind of QB who can come in and produce right away, or should we expect to give him the customary "he's a rookie, it's going to take awhile" pass? What do you guys think?

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The FO knows this draft, and this new HC hire, is pivotal for their own future careers. And by all accounts they have said, clearly, Clevelands fans deserve to win now. Not next year, now. I expect they approach the draft with that same mentality.

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Am I alone in thinking t,here is something off about Manziel? He seems to like attention too much. Maybe he will be OK, but he seems immature. He just seems like someone who will crash and burn.

 

No one wants to hear this but this is not a good year to draft a QB. The pool is not very deep at that position. Every draft year is different, and you have to go with what is available to some extent.

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Small QB's don't win the AFC North and Manziel is just Colt McCoy with a little bit more swagger.

 

Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small

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Is he "college good" or "NFL good"?

He's college "Great"...but so was Tebow...

That said he is not Tebow...more of a Farve type gunslinger,can get the ball down field but like Farve needs room to throw

and he's very good at creating that room...seems to have good accuracy on short throws and exceptional field vision.

 

Question is will he get killed running as much as he does? Probably...But he does seem to have a knack for narrowly escaping big hits.

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Well...we can all watch him play tonight at 8 eastern and see how he looks.

 

I'm not a fan of his but if we draft him, I'll give him a chance.

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Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small

One plays in a dome and the other played for a balmy West Coast team for most of his career. Hardly a fitting comparison. The concerns of his size are more linked to the fact that he'll be playing outdoors, in the Midwest and Northeast, in the winter, in an outdoor stadium, against very good defenses.

 

He's listed at 6'1 and 210 lbs, but he'll undoubtedly measure in at the combine at 72 inches . His arm strength is just about average, which could improve if he adds a little bulk, but people worry he'll struggle with snowy, windy conditions.

 

I'm not as worried about him in the snow and wind, as he has very large hands for someone his size. Holding on to and controlling the ball won't be a problem for him in adverse conditions.

 

He's very, actually eerily, similar to Brees as a physical prospect. Manziel will measure in at the combine between 72 - 72.5 inches and will have a hand span between 10.25-10.5 inches. Brees measures at 72.5 inches and has a hand span of 10.25 inches. That's nearly a full inch larger than the average NFL QB's hand size.

 

I'm more worried about how his body reacts to playing in the cold for 8-10 games. He's got a small frame, so I'll cringe every time he takes a flush hit. It takes a hell of a lot more to get up after being hit in sub 40 degree temperatures than it does in warmer weather.

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Yeah, I'll give him a chance if we draft him, too.

 

I'm not a guy who thinks that QBs are the answer to every problem on a football team, and I think that the Browns could absolutely use help everywhere. That being said, the Browns offense does need to have SOME way to score. I like Cameron and I like Gordon, but they play in positions that are dependent on another position (QB). So, while I don't think the Browns necessarily HAVE to take a QB in the first round, and I would rather seem them take a solid player at another position than another "Weeden" (whoever that may be in this year's draft), I think it is best if they find a serviceable QB SOMEWHERE this year (even Hoyer, if they feel like giving him a try [even though I don't think he's the ultimate answer]).

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Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small

No one is saying there has never been a successful short QB. But the odds are firmly against you. The overwhelming majority of successful NFL QBs are tall. Looking at the current playoff picture 11 out of 12 QBs are 6'2" or taller and 9 out of the 12 are 6'4" or taller.

So I guess you could say that even if Manziel was not only an NFL caliber but an NFL playoff caliber QB (which no one would say) he would only have a 1 in 12 chance of being in the playoffs this year based on height.

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I actually agree that short QBs are often at a disadvantage and that IN GENERAL height is a favorable quality for a QB. The way you used the "snapshot" stats there is a little misleading, though. Doing it that way, you could say that 100% of the Superbowl XLIV MVP QBs were less than 6'1", while 100% of the losing QBs were over 6'1", so shorter QBs are better at winning Superbowls.

 

Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong about tall QBs having an advantage; I agree with you. I just think that maybe "QBs whose teams have made the playoffs in 2013" might be a bit too small of a sampling size to cite. Something like "correlation of NFL QB height to wins/production of the past two decades" would be a little more telling.

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I am going to watch the game tonight. have not seen this johnny football you speak of play yet.

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I'm not worried about height what-so-ever. We've had plenty of QBs that were tall and even ones that were short, none have worked out. There is way more to a QB than height. Can the QB hit the fucking open wide receiver? That should be priority number one. Can he throw it deep accurately? What about touch on short throws? Can he mentally handle an NFL Playbook and execute the gameplan? Can he read a defense and adjust the play accordingly?

 

How tall a QB is has about as much influence on how good he will be as does his eye color.

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Manziel is VERY good. Is he NFL good? Who can really tell? I've watched him play about 7 or 8 times in the past 2 years and here's what I've seen (I'm no expert):

 

Strengths - Incredibly mobile. Excellent pocket awareness with uncanny escapability when necessary. Can control a game from inside the pocket when necessary and does not NEED to get ouside to make plays. Very smart when creating passing lanes. Good accuracy. As TCPO said, above average hand size which will help in cold weather (unlike Bridgewater who's hands are so small he needs to wear a glove on his throwing hand). Quick release. Big play ability.

 

Weaknesses - His size. Not only is he shorter than ideal, but he is very light meaning potential for injury every time he gets hit. He takes too many risks. In the NFL, many of his big plays would be turned into sacks and interceptions which is pretty scary. He had a bad offseason last year (which I don't put much stock into, I mean seriously he was a freshman who just won the Heisman trophy. He hasn't been the face of any sort of distraction all season which is a very good sign). Lastly, he has never played in cold weather.

 

My NFL comparison - A much smaller, yet faster and quicker, Ben Roethlisberger (for some reason that's just who he reminds me of)

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I'm not worried about height what-so-ever. We've had plenty of QBs that were tall and even ones that were short, none have worked out. There is way more to a QB than height. Can the QB hit the fucking open wide receiver? That should be priority number one. Can he throw it deep accurately? What about touch on short throws? Can he mentally handle an NFL Playbook and execute the gameplan? Can he read a defense and adjust the play accordingly?

 

How tall a QB is has about as much influence on how good he will be as does his eye color.

 

Except that's completely wrong.

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I actually agree that short QBs are often at a disadvantage and that IN GENERAL height is a favorable quality for a QB. The way you used the "snapshot" stats there is a little misleading, though. Doing it that way, you could say that 100% of the Superbowl XLIV MVP QBs were less than 6'1", while 100% of the losing QBs were over 6'1", so shorter QBs are better at winning Superbowls.

 

Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong about tall QBs having an advantage; I agree with you. I just think that maybe "QBs whose teams have made the playoffs in 2013" might be a bit too small of a sampling size to cite. Something like "correlation of NFL QB height to wins/production of the past two decades" would be a little more telling.

I did use a relatively small sample size but your sample size is even smaller and therefore even less useful. I didn't have time to analyze over several years. Feel free to do so if you like and share the results. I'd be interested in seeing the results. I'd be surprised if there was a significant difference.

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Thenew23, from your description, he sounded like Roethlisberger to me too. What concerns me about that is that Ben's size has always been a major factor in his game.

 

Yes... very concerning. Ben can toss DLinemen off his back and escape. Manziel probably can't break free from a CB. He has to rely on his speed much more. I just really like his talent, but I'll leave it to the experts to decide if they think it translates to the NFL. I could see it both ways...

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I don't see the Ben comparison in the slightest. The QB that most resembles Roethlisberger in this draft, to me, is Blake Bortles.

 

Manziel draws a gameplay comparison to Doug Flutie and a physical attribute comparison to Drew Brees.

 

He doesn't bounce off four 350-lb defenders and then throw a wobbling strike to his receiver with two more defenders draped on his body.

 

He maneuvers in the pocket until he can't any longer, then he moves outside of the pocket and eludes tacklers until someone gets open. He changes the field. He plays backyard football, running around until he creates enough space to hit a breaking WR.

 

The only comparison to Ben that I can draw is off-the-field concerns. They are both knuckleheads.

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Ah, thanks for the clarification, TCPO. You mentioned that Johnny maneuvers in the pocket until he can't anymore. An article that someone linked earlier in the thread claims that he bails out of the pocket too quickly. Do you agree that's a possibility, or do you disagree with that assessment?

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I'm comparing Manziel and Ben in college. I said their size is the big difference. The similarity is they both escape pressure and are capable of making big plays on a regular basis. They both are equally able to escape pressure and make big plays, for the other team as well. Ben was big in college, but he was also faster and more elusive than he is now. The other comparison is their accuracy. They both seem very accurate from inside the pocket, and equally accurate on the run...

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Ah, thanks for the clarification, TCPO. You mentioned that Johnny maneuvers in the pocket until he can't anymore. An article that someone linked earlier in the thread claims that he bails out of the pocket too quickly. Do you agree that's a possibility, or do you disagree with that assessment?

I agree with it. I think he relies too much on his feet and tries to create as much distance as he can before he throws the ball.

 

I wasn't saying that he stays in the pocket until it collapses, I was saying that he only stays in there until he feels uneasy and then he changes the field. That's where the Flutie comparison comes in. He'll let the defenders get engaged and then he'll create as much space as he can in order to let his WR's get seperation.

 

He's not a quarterback that stands tall in the face of pressure and delivers a strike as he's being hit, like Roethlisberger. That's how I fail to see the connection.

 

It's part of the reason I'm very concerned about his NFL potential. He's not going to be able to do that as often on Sundays.

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I'm comparing Manziel and Ben in college. I said their size is the big difference. The similarity is they both escape pressure and are capable of making big plays on a regular basis. They both are equally able to escape pressure and make big plays, for the other team as well. Ben was big in college, but he was also faster and more elusive than he is now. The other comparison is their accuracy. They both seem very accurate from inside the pocket, and equally accurate on the run...

Yes, they're both elusive. I understand that aspect.

 

The way they are elusive is much different, however. That's what I'm saying. Ben is elusive because he's able to shake off arm tacklers and has tremendous balance. Manziel is elusive in that he can outrun his defenders and create space before throwing the ball.

 

Ben can hunker down in the pocket and a wave of defenders will crash over and around him, and then roll out if he needs to. Manziel tries to stay five yards from defenders at all times, hence the "backyard football" comparison he gets from analysts.

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For what it's worth last I heard Mel kipper jr. Didn't even have a first round grade on manziel, let alone a top five grade. Of course, take it with a grain of salt as he was proclaiming Jamarcus Russell to be the next john elway and also didn't have a first round grade on Russell Wilson either.

 

I don't like how much manziel has to rely on his legs. I love mobility in a quarterback but don't care for qbs who are always looking to run the ball. It'd be one thing if he was as big as bortles, but he isn't. I guess what I'm really getting at is why don't we just draft Bortles?

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Kiper also criticized the drafting of Marshall Faulk. For a guy that has 363 days a year to get 2 days worth of work right, I think he misses an awful lot.

now that is a good gig

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Honestly why the hell not draft this guy? The browns keep trotting out big tall stupid QB's (minus McCoy who was just stupid), so I'm all for giving Manziel a chance. He's clearly an athlete with swagger a la Phillip Rivers. With Manziel under center at least our offensive would be exciting. I think he's a douche but he's been very solid against the best competition in college football. The shit we've been doing for the past 15 years hasn't worked. Same way I feel about Chud, seems stupid on paper but maybe it's what will finally turn the ship around.

 

The last guy that went high in the draft like this who I thought sucked was Cam Newton. I know from a physical standpoint it's apples to oranges but still.

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JB called today and asked that I scout this guy so I'll be tuned in. AFC North has no room for noodle arms when the fall/winter winds pick up as recently demonstrated with McCoy.

 

Even Flacco has trouble getting the ball down the field in windy Bmore. Johnny football was pretty well protected with only 42 sacks so far on his resume. Durability a big question

 

mark. Of course his athleticism got him out of a lot of potential bell ringers. He may not be able to rely on that asset in the NFL with it's ramped up D speed. Cringe factor of running

 

QB's quickly ages pro coaches. Lord know Browns fan pucker at each QB scramble after seeing the outcome of a Hoyer scoot and boot

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