Trading down

[Westside Steve]

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/browns-arent-joking-about-trading-no-1-pick-reportedly-trying-to-bait-giants/

[TexasAg1969]

See the similar article in the Darnold thread posted yesterday.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Don't do it please.

 

[TexasAg1969]

22 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

Don't do it please.

 

Amen.

[BrownsFan4Evr]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

[dawg2fan]

I'd be ok if they did, but just don't go down past #2.  The way I see it, picking either Josh Allen or Sam Darnold is a can't miss.  Either one can sit for a while and learn the game.  We have Tyrod and Drew ahead of them.  Now if they take anyone other than those two, then I have worries.  

[Westside Steve]

4 minutes ago, dawg2fan said:

I'd be ok if they did, but just don't go down past #2.  The way I see it, picking either Josh Allen or Sam Darnold is a can't miss.  Either one can sit for a while and learn the game.  We have Tyrod and Drew ahead of them.  Now if they take anyone other than those two, then I have worries.  

Unless, of course, Tour has been sleeping under the bridge, disguised as that homeless guy, and talking to Jimmy, advising him to take Rosen but to keep it quiet. That way the Giants take either Sam darnold or Josh Allen, the Browns get Rosen and we get an extra pick.

😊

WSS

[dawg2fan]

21 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Unless, of course, Tour has been sleeping under the bridge, disguised as that homeless guy, and talking to Jimmy, advising him to take Rosen but to keep it quiet. That way the Giants take either Sam darnold or Josh Allen, the Browns get Rosen and we get an extra pick.

😊

WSS

Yes, the problem with Rosen is he said he specifically doesn't want to be here.  So why would we want him?  I want someone that will give 100% to the team.  So please GM, don't take Rosen.  I would almost rather they take Mayfield (). 

[Westside Steve]

7 minutes ago, dawg2fan said:

Yes, the problem with Rosen is he said he specifically doesn't want to be here.  So why would we want him?  I want someone that will give 100% to the team.  So please GM, don't take Rosen.  I would almost rather they take Mayfield (). 

If we knew that the Giants wanted Rosen and we really wanted somebody else, that would be the thing to do. Then trade him for the number two pick and take the guy we want, and reap the extra pic or two.

I understand the question marks about Rosen but I tend to think he would like being the first pick in the draft. Maybe not. Also he may listen to reason when Browns management  show him all the movies we are making  to be winners finally. And if that doesn't convince him, who knows if his family is rich and arrogant enough for him to sit out the year or refuse to play.

WSS

[dawg2fan]

1 minute ago, Westside Steve said:

If we knew that the Giants wanted Rosen that would be the thing to do. Then trade him for the number two pick and take the guy we want, and reap the extra pic or two.

I understand the question marks about Rosen butt I tend to think he would like being the first pick in the draft. Maybe not. Also he may listen to reason when Browns management  show him all the movies we are making  to be winners finally. And if that doesn't convince him, who knows if his family is rich and arrogant enough for him to sit out the year or refuse to play.

WSS

The problem with Rosen is he wants to be in a big market and the Browns can't give that.  Everyone wants to be the first person drafted.  Now if we know that the Giants want him, then this could work.  But what if they don't?  What if they want Darnold or Allen?  Obviously, this could work out for us as well.  Still the reason I think swap the picks if they're interested.  But like you said, we need something worth the trade. 

[Westside Steve]

2 minutes ago, dawg2fan said:

The problem with Rosen is he wants to be in a big market and the Browns can't give that.  Everyone wants to be the first person drafted.  Now if we know that the Giants want him, then this could work.  But what if they don't?  What if they want Darnold or Allen?  Obviously, this could work out for us as well.  Still the reason I think swap the picks if they're interested.  But like you said, we need something worth the trade. 

No Doubt. Negotiations could be nothing more than gambling. If New York wanted darnold and promised the Browns that they would trade they're number 2 and something else for our number one if we drafted Rosen and then pull out after we did.

I don't know how honest anybody has to be in the NFL. Especially with the BS we hear every single minute of every day.

WSS

[runyon27]

I see this as a lot of smoke and mirrors that happen every year. Last year, we were taking Trubisky. Given the mandate from Haslam to find a QB and the amount of time invested in researching them and working them out, it doesn't make sense to pass over any QB and just get the guy you want. You trade back even one spot you could not get your guy. So don't trade back, we have enough picks.

[Westside Steve]

https://thebiglead.com/2018/03/27/jim-mora-josh-rosen-sam-darnold/

[dawg2fan]

No surprise there. 

[Zombo]

32 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

https://thebiglead.com/2018/03/27/jim-mora-josh-rosen-sam-darnold/

Yes, I know Colin Cowherd said this months ago ... Darnold is a gritty AFC North rust bowl QB and Rosen is coastal, big media town guy. Could be. I just think Darnold is the better pro with everything added up, but the Browns need to make their own choice, and it won't have anything to do with where Rosen wants to play. My feeling is that only Darnold and Allen are in play right now, and Darnold is the leader in the clubhouse.

Zombo

[Westside Steve]

8 minutes ago, Zombo said:

Yes, I know Colin Cowherd said this months ago ... Darnold is a gritty AFC North rust bowl QB and Rosen is coastal, big media town guy. Could be. I just think Darnold is the better pro with everything added up, but the Browns need to make their own choice, and it won't have anything to do with where Rosen wants to play. My feeling is that only Darnold and Allen are in play right now, and Darnold is the leader in the clubhouse.

Zombo

That would be my take even though I worry about Allen being Kizer.2. 

WSS

[Zombo]

1 minute ago, Westside Steve said:

That would be my take even though I worry about Allen being Kizer.2. 

WSS

I'm not sold on Allen either. I'm sure his arm is spectacular in person, and tantalizing, but Darnold had a great track record of moving the ball and making plays at a major school, in addition to prototypical size and skills and seemingly an A+ in "gets along well with others" and leadership.

He feels like the guy.

Zombo

[Tour2ma]

"When a floor as high as Rosen's is starring you in the face, quit trying to sell yourself ceilings." - Tour2ma

[Comeonman]

“I can’t wait to tell all of you how stupid you are, again” - Tour2ma

[Tour2ma]

Again?

[mjp28]

When you have almost 4 months and 12 draft picks a lot of dumb ideas get kicked around.

But I'll grade the BROWNS moves so far an A or A+  (that is a typical draft grade, right?).  

[D Bone]

Hopefully this is nothing more than a fishing expedition to see if they can land Moby Finger on a 25lb line....... If not, (won't know until we know) then it speaks volumes to me about what they think of the QB class, and it tells me they won't select even one of them with either pick in the 1st round.

"So how we gonna Browns it up again this year?" - D Bone 

 

EDIT: LOL at Finger! 

[Tour2ma]

I think the odds are greater that we take a QB at #1 and #4, than they are that we trade out of the #1 overall.

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

I think the odds are greater that we take a QB at #1 and #4, than they are that we trade out of the #1 overall.

Yeah, why would we trade out of the #1? If we're happy with either Darnold or Rosen- hell, just take Chubb at #1, and unlike Po's Saquon dream, one of Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield will be there at #4. 

Actually, take the QB you want at #1, and one of Barkley, Chubb, or Fitzpatrick will be there at #4.  You probably know by now the more I see of objective tape on Saquon, the less I like...   

[Westside Steve]

20 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Yeah, why would we trade out of the #1? If we're happy with either Darnold or Rosen- hell, just take Chubb at #1, and unlike Po's Saquon dream, one of Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield will be there at #4. 

Actually, take the QB you want at #1, and one of Barkley, Chubb, or Fitzpatrick will be there at #4.  You probably know by now the more I see of objective tape on Saquon, the less I like...   

It would be hard for me to imagine that our front office and coaching staff would not have one of the three major quarterbacks in their sites rather than just shrug their shoulders and say whoever's there at 4?

WSS

[Dutch Oven]

There was a QB who, after drafted by a franchise he wanted nothing to do with in the 1st round, was so distraught he went to his bedroom and wept. 

The QB was Jim Kelly, and the team was the Buffalo Bills. He's practically known as Mr. Buffalo today. 

[Tour2ma]

5 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

There was a QB who, after drafted by a franchise he wanted nothing to do with in the 1st round, was so distraught he went to his bedroom and wept.

... and then he dried his tears in Houston for three years...

Go Gamblers!

[jiggins7919]

I don't think "trading down" is what necessarily kills so many of us Browns fans. It's the trading down SO FAR that kills us. You know, we all love the excitement and potential these multiple early round picks brings, but most of us aren't pleased with HOW we got them. 

Now, I'm fine with trading down A LITTLE bit, but ONLY after we select our favorite QB at #1. In fact, I almost don't care who it is as long as it's NOT Josh Allen. Our team has made it abundantly clear that we don't want to start our new rookie QB in 2018, and I believe giving up so much for Tyrod really shows that. What people seem to forget regarding Tyrod is that he's pretty much a .500 QB. When you look at Buffalo last year, it's not exactly like they were LOADED with talent. We get a little avoidance from the injury bug this year, and we'll have just as much talent as they did, that's for sure. Can you IMAGINE the epic excitement around Cleveland if the Browns were 7-9, or even *gasp*.....8-8?! If Tyrod Taylor does what he usually does, we're going to have a fun year (compared to 0-16, ANYTHING is fun btw). 

So we draft a rookie at 1, we know we don't want to play him, and this year we finally get some help with injuries so we don't have to play every qb in our stable. That means whoever we draft at #4 simply HAS to be a bluechip, ready to go, impact, frothing at the mouth, stab-yo-grandma-with-a-steak-knife tough, MoFo. The guy at 4 HAS to be a hit. We all know there are no sure things in the draft, but we have to pick someone who is as close to that as possible, and by trading down we reduce those chances significantly. Yes, we have the #1 and the #4 picks, but but since we're not trying to PLAY the #1, it's like he's not even on our team this year. A backup QB isn't like other positions. He doesn't play special teams or things like that (technically, he could hold for FG's, but I seriously doubt we'd use our rookie for that). Drafting a QB at 1 basically means we won't SEE this kid beyond preseason if everything goes right (Hahahaha....funny). 

Knowing that, #4 has to be potential impact. He has to be a guy who can play a large amount of snaps, do several things, do THEM WELL, and not be some sort of project. I think this is some of the appeal of someone like Chubb. Chubb can play running downs, passing downs, provides invaluable depth, and does so at a key position. He's also known to be a grown man with no character issues, and his presence gives our defense flexibility to lineup different ways and attack creatively. He's as adept stopping the run as he is hitting the QB, and to me, THAT'S value. THAT'S #4 type stuff. Could you go Minkah Fitzpatrick at 4? Surely. This is a guy thought to have the ability to play in space and defend WRs. He's also a "field general" and someone who is talked about like being a coach on the field and the best of the best character wise. THAT'S #4 to me. Lots of people want Saquon. I do not. Nothing against him, but I feel we can get somebody CLOSE to his ability in round 2 or even by trading back into the end of the first. If you pass on Minkah Fitzpatrick or Chubb, I DON'T think you can find a defender anywhere CLOSE to their talent level later on. 

If a team like the Broncos or Bucs wants to trade with us, and we only move down A FEW spots, I think many of us could live with that. It's not the trading down that deflates us, it's the trading down SO FAR. Our team is ripe to get exponentially better very quickly. For one, we can't get worse, and for another, we have lots of young talent and some offensive weaponry that we simply haven't had in years past. Unfortunately, much of our success will depend on Josh Gordon, and that's just how it is. Josh opens up everything for us with his bizarre blend of speed, power, and ability to catch almost everything. He demands attention, and you better give it to him. That leaves the middle open for Duke, Jarvis, Njoku, and Corey. We need an impact defensive stud picked EARLY in the draft, and we can get a talented RB prospect later like SO MANY TEAMS. 

It's going to be difficult to draft a QB at 1 and hopefully NOT see him play this year. We see Deshawn Watson, we see Carson Wentz, and we WANT that. But I also don't want people to overlook what Tyrod can do, and if he does what he always does, we Browns fans are going to think we died and went to heaven because we'll go from the worst team in history to potentially being involved in the wildcard discussion in November (probably not December, but who knows?). Imagine being like 5-6 next year....and needing a late season push to maybe fight for a wildcard slot. It's what the Bills did, and I think we're just as good as they were. 

 

[Bigalow80]

1 hour ago, jiggins7919 said:

I don't think "trading down" is what necessarily kills so many of us Browns fans. It's the trading down SO FAR that kills us. You know, we all love the excitement and potential these multiple early round picks brings, but most of us aren't pleased with HOW we got them. 

Now, I'm fine with trading down A LITTLE bit, but ONLY after we select our favorite QB at #1. In fact, I almost don't care who it is as long as it's NOT Josh Allen. Our team has made it abundantly clear that we don't want to start our new rookie QB in 2018, and I believe giving up so much for Tyrod really shows that. What people seem to forget regarding Tyrod is that he's pretty much a .500 QB. When you look at Buffalo last year, it's not exactly like they were LOADED with talent. We get a little avoidance from the injury bug this year, and we'll have just as much talent as they did, that's for sure. Can you IMAGINE the epic excitement around Cleveland if the Browns were 7-9, or even *gasp*.....8-8?! If Tyrod Taylor does what he usually does, we're going to have a fun year (compared to 0-16, ANYTHING is fun btw). 

So we draft a rookie at 1, we know we don't want to play him, and this year we finally get some help with injuries so we don't have to play every qb in our stable. That means whoever we draft at #4 simply HAS to be a bluechip, ready to go, impact, frothing at the mouth, stab-yo-grandma-with-a-steak-knife tough, MoFo. The guy at 4 HAS to be a hit. We all know there are no sure things in the draft, but we have to pick someone who is as close to that as possible, and by trading down we reduce those chances significantly. Yes, we have the #1 and the #4 picks, but but since we're not trying to PLAY the #1, it's like he's not even on our team this year. A backup QB isn't like other positions. He doesn't play special teams or things like that (technically, he could hold for FG's, but I seriously doubt we'd use our rookie for that). Drafting a QB at 1 basically means we won't SEE this kid beyond preseason if everything goes right (Hahahaha....funny). 

Knowing that, #4 has to be potential impact. He has to be a guy who can play a large amount of snaps, do several things, do THEM WELL, and not be some sort of project. I think this is some of the appeal of someone like Chubb. Chubb can play running downs, passing downs, provides invaluable depth, and does so at a key position. He's also known to be a grown man with no character issues, and his presence gives our defense flexibility to lineup different ways and attack creatively. He's as adept stopping the run as he is hitting the QB, and to me, THAT'S value. THAT'S #4 type stuff. Could you go Minkah Fitzpatrick at 4? Surely. This is a guy thought to have the ability to play in space and defend WRs. He's also a "field general" and someone who is talked about like being a coach on the field and the best of the best character wise. THAT'S #4 to me. Lots of people want Saquon. I do not. Nothing against him, but I feel we can get somebody CLOSE to his ability in round 2 or even by trading back into the end of the first. If you pass on Minkah Fitzpatrick or Chubb, I DON'T think you can find a defender anywhere CLOSE to their talent level later on. 

If a team like the Broncos or Bucs wants to trade with us, and we only move down A FEW spots, I think many of us could live with that. It's not the trading down that deflates us, it's the trading down SO FAR. Our team is ripe to get exponentially better very quickly. For one, we can't get worse, and for another, we have lots of young talent and some offensive weaponry that we simply haven't had in years past. Unfortunately, much of our success will depend on Josh Gordon, and that's just how it is. Josh opens up everything for us with his bizarre blend of speed, power, and ability to catch almost everything. He demands attention, and you better give it to him. That leaves the middle open for Duke, Jarvis, Njoku, and Corey. We need an impact defensive stud picked EARLY in the draft, and we can get a talented RB prospect later like SO MANY TEAMS. 

It's going to be difficult to draft a QB at 1 and hopefully NOT see him play this year. We see Deshawn Watson, we see Carson Wentz, and we WANT that. But I also don't want people to overlook what Tyrod can do, and if he does what he always does, we Browns fans are going to think we died and went to heaven because we'll go from the worst team in history to potentially being involved in the wildcard discussion in November (probably not December, but who knows?). Imagine being like 5-6 next year....and needing a late season push to maybe fight for a wildcard slot. It's what the Bills did, and I think we're just as good as they were. 

 

Good point to the "distance" of trading down. However, there is a caveat to trading down. The question is, "what are you trading down for?" The reason I think this is important is because of how the browns board maybe stacked and trading down does not always just mean draft picks. Fans don't want the browns to acquire  more draft picks, they want tangible ready to compete players. This is the adversity to trading down. Analyzing who is on the board when you pick is most important and this is what makes a great GM. Chubb is far and away the best DE in this draft. Fitzpatrick is very good and multi-dimensional but the next few CB's are not nearly as far back as the other DE's in the draft compared to Chubb. The same goes for Barkley. This is why "what" you are trading down for becomes the most important. Let's take the Bills scenario. I have said this in a few boards but if the bills offered #12, 22, 53, 56 and Tre'Davious White for #4, I jump on that in a second if I'm the browns. Why? 1.) The bills are going up for a qb, meaning that at least 4 out of the first 5 picks are going to be qb's pushing very good talent down the board. 2.) Adding White gives the browns a proven, elite player and perhaps one of the best up and coming secondary's in the nfl with all kinds of flexibility 3.) The browns now have 5 second round picks which is important for the next point 4.) They now have even more ammo to move up from #12 or #22 to get the guys they want. With all of the qb's going early, Barkley, Chubb, Nelson, etc are going to be sliding down the board. I bet if Cleveland called the Colts and said we will give you 2 more second round picks for #6, they still get Chubb. Now they have added another first round pick, White, and got the player they were probably targeting at #4. Once again, there are a lot of "If this happens then..." in this scenario and a lot of things need to go correctly for this work. But it is very plausible. 

In addition, IF the browns Love them some Allen and the jets really really want Darnold, I think it would be wise for the Browns to trade #1 for #3 and Leonard Williams. No draft picks involved. The browns could then take Allen at #3 and Chubb at #4 or even make the trade above. They have created one of the best DL in the NFL. Now, this does not have to happen right as the first pick comes out either. If both teams want to make sure they get "their guy" the Browns can wait until the Jets are on the clock to ensure they get Allen and then make the deal (see Eli Manning deal). If Allen goes 2, then they hold onto Darnold and they have a very good qb whom they feel is just as good. (Yes, I understand there is a sense that the browns would be "settling" but if the reports of them being basically equal in their eyes, this theory works).

Trading down is not wrong. It's how you manipulate the draft from there. The browns need proven players which is what they are doing in FA, but they also have some big holes that need to be filled such as LT. Targeting specific players is the reason you acquire tons of draft and salary cap capital. It's to manipulate FA and the draft how you see it. 

[domcucch1994]

DIdn't we trade down and pass on Carson Wentz?