Darnold at #1?

[Tour2ma]

57 minutes ago, Ashtabula said:

I do think Rosen has great potential, just pointing out there are more questions than Darnold.  

ummm... no...

There is no... I repeat, no... comparison between the floors of these two QB prospects. See the visual evidence for the post above as a starting point.

Anticipation... hitting a primary receiver who is entering a dead spot in a zone is not NFL grade anticipation and neither is hitting a streaking WR clearing his man. Throwing to an opening man is not the same as throwing a man open... and it is the latter that takes anticipation.

Keeps his eyes Downfield? All the time? No... drops eyes to the rush. Now once clear he looks back up... throws it if he is running east/west... runs it if he's heading north/south. He is not adept at sliding in the pocket, but bails prematurely.

I love this San Capistrano blue-collar narrative... but Dad is a plumber... a medical gas plumber who pulls down 6-figues...

"Recruited" to play LB (nice Wikipedia use there)... yeah when he was a Sophomore in HS and the USC DC stopped by the school. At the time he was splitting his time between LB and WR.

Switched to QB but was hurt most of his JR year. Played his Sr. year. The started two years at USC. For those who are counting that's 3 years and change of QB'ing at the HS and College level.

Small wonder the kid lacks the biggest plus of all... read progressions.

 

Good player... good kid... posted good numbers despite many, many flaws from his feet to his elongated throwing motion (a source of turnovers) and questionable ball security and head.

If he's the next Browns QB as more and more sources are saying, then I will root for his success, but I'm going in with my eyes wide open.

[calfoxwc]

but Darnold's completion percentage !

67.2, 63.1 !

Rosenbum

60.0

59.3

62.6

Rosen - head coach - Jim Mora trained. He'll look the part in his offense, but around a bunch of seniors,

and a first round left tackle....a very good center.... never had a completion percentage as high as Darnold's worst year.

59 not far from 56. and Allen had far, far less talent around him vs UCLA versus a few common opponents.

Facts.

[Tour2ma]

^ Hand waiving...

Your late blooming love of completion percentage is duly noted...

[hoorta]

7 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

The footwork, especially at the top of his 5 &7 step drops is just pure comedy.  Nevermind the other things like how his hips don't come around in sync with his arm. 

Why would you want to draft a QB where you spend the bulk of his first off season fixing his terrible mechanics when you could take Rosen - who you could immediately begin working on absorbing the playbook, adapting to NFL speeds and the mental/classroom work of the game because he doesn't possess such incredibly obvious flaws?!?

 

When the #1 pick is in and should the Browns not call Rosen's name, then they're only making it as hard on themselves as humanly possible.

So who's worse in the footwork department- Darnold or Allen?  Yeah I get Rosen has the best mechanics, but didn't Kosar have terrible mechanics? 

[SD_Tom]

Cal's convinced me. Rosen is horrible. 

 

[Nero]

8 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

The footwork, especially at the top of his 5 &7 step drops is just pure comedy.  Nevermind the other things like how his hips don't come around in sync with his arm. 

Why would you want to draft a QB where you spend the bulk of his first off season fixing his terrible mechanics when you could take Rosen - who you could immediately begin working on absorbing the playbook, adapting to NFL speeds and the mental/classroom work of the game because he doesn't possess such incredibly obvious flaws?!?

 

When the #1 pick is in and should the Browns not call Rosen's name, then they're only making it as hard on themselves as humanly possible.

For me, this is a BIG reason. We just destroyed 2 QB's careers (Kizer, Kessler) and now we are trying to get the best of Darnold? I'd go with the safest bet.

Rosen can be concerning for his injury history, but even if you took the strongest QB that wouldn't assure you that he cannot suffer a career ending injury.

And if someone believes that other guys' ceiling is higher than Rosen's, did you see Browns' quaterback list since '99? At this point I'd be more than happy with a good FRANCHISE quaterback, even if he is not top 5 in the league. Just so we don't have to worry about the most important position in the sport.

[TexasAg1969]

4 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

Cal's convinced me. Rosen is horrible.

[Westside Steve]

7 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

Cal's convinced me. Rosen is horrible. 

 

Well one or more of these top Hot Shots is going to turn out to be a disappointment. Place your bets boys and girls. And more than likely somebody is going to pull a Carson Wentz.

WSS

[calfoxwc]

9 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

^ Hand waiving...

Your late blooming love of completion percentage is duly noted...

sorry, should have posted it in pink. lol

[tiamat63]

10 hours ago, hoorta said:

So who's worse in the footwork department- Darnold or Allen?  Yeah I get Rosen has the best mechanics, but didn't Kosar have terrible mechanics? 

Darnold by a long way but there are times when Allen's feet go erratic as well.  

Bernie had a 3/4 delivery but good footwork, and more importantly, a great mind.     You can overcome some deficiencies by having the latter, but not all.    Most especially in the modern NFL with defenders as fast as they have become.  

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Darnold by a long way but there are times when Allen's feet go erratic as well. 

Agree... easy call. Allen's routine footwork in his drops is actually quite pretty... in any color. His mystery throws are the issue that remains with him. While I know over-striding is a thing, I cannot say that I have seen it in his case.
 

11 hours ago, Nero said:

Rosen can be concerning for his injury history, but even if you took the strongest QB that wouldn't assure you that he cannot suffer a career ending injury.

And if someone believes that other guys' ceiling is higher than Rosen's, did you see Browns' quaterback list since '99? At this point I'd be more than happy with a good FRANCHISE quaterback, even if he is not top 5 in the league. Just so we don't have to worry about the most important position in the sport.

Yup... you'd think Rosen was the only QB to ever be injured in football history. Anyone talking about Darnold missing his Jr. year in HS?

And again... when you see a floor as high as Rosen's, then phuck projecting ceilings.

[calfoxwc]

"Rosen's floor in the ceiling" lol

"so, rosen, don't be acting like a psycho jackwagon, at least until after you get your first contract.

Then, you will be a millionaire, and you can go ahead and give the NFL the finger"

that kind of floor? The same floor as ryan leaf had?

going to be a FUN DRAFT !

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Agree... easy call. Allen's routine footwork in his drops is actually quite pretty... in any color. His mystery throws are the issue that remains with him. While I know over-striding is a thing, I cannot say that I have seen it in his case.
 

Yup... you'd think Rosen was the only QB to ever be injured in football history. Anyone talking about Darnold missing his Jr. year in HS?

And again... when you see a floor as high as Rosen's, then phuck projecting ceilings.

 

I think Allen's base is too wide.  But even when it doesn't appear so he'll still have a ball sail on him.  At this point you just had to believe it's something eye/hand or neurological related.  

[tiamat63]

12 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

"Rosen's floor in the ceiling" lol

"so, rosen, don't be acting like a psycho jackwagon, at least until after you get your first contract.

Then, you will be a millionaire, and you can go ahead and give the NFL the finger"

that kind of floor? The same floor as ryan leaf had?

going to be a FUN DRAFT !

Wasn't aware Rosen was doing rails at half-time in the locker room. 

Don't get the Leaf jokes at all. 

 

But I did watch an Aaron Rodgers highlight and kept hearing from Burman about Rodgers 'attitude' adding to his draft slide. 

....feels remarkably similar.

[Tour2ma]

45 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

"Rosen's floor in the ceiling" lol

"so, rosen, don't be acting like a psycho jackwagon, at least until after you get your first contract.

Then, you will be a millionaire, and you can go ahead and give the NFL the finger"

that kind of floor? The same floor as ryan leaf had?

going to be a FUN DRAFT !

Have you been taking writing lessons from gumby?

[SD_Tom]

52 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Wasn't aware Rosen was doing rails at half-time in the locker room. 

Don't get the Leaf jokes at all. 

 

But I did watch an Aaron Rodgers highlight and kept hearing from Burman about Rodgers 'attitude' adding to his draft slide. 

....feels remarkably similar.

Leafs stats at WSU are far closer to Allen than Rosen. 

Big tall inaccurate qb.  Sounds familiar.  

 

[Ashtabula]

21 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

ummm... no...

There is no... I repeat, no... comparison between the floors of these two QB prospects. See the visual evidence for the post above as a starting point.

Anticipation... hitting a primary receiver who is entering a dead spot in a zone is not NFL grade anticipation and neither is hitting a streaking WR clearing his man. Throwing to an opening man is not the same as throwing a man open... and it is the latter that takes anticipation.

Keeps his eyes Downfield? All the time? No... drops eyes to the rush. Now once clear he looks back up... throws it if he is running east/west... runs it if he's heading north/south. He is not adept at sliding in the pocket, but bails prematurely.

I love this San Capistrano blue-collar narrative... but Dad is a plumber... a medical gas plumber who pulls down 6-figues...

"Recruited" to play LB (nice Wikipedia use there)... yeah when he was a Sophomore in HS and the USC DC stopped by the school. At the time he was splitting his time between LB and WR.

Switched to QB but was hurt most of his JR year. Played his Sr. year. The started two years at USC. For those who are counting that's 3 years and change of QB'ing at the HS and College level.

Small wonder the kid lacks the biggest plus of all... read progressions.

 

Good player... good kid... posted good numbers despite many, many flaws from his feet to his elongated throwing motion (a source of turnovers) and questionable ball security and head.

If he's the next Browns QB as more and more sources are saying, then I will root for his success, but I'm going in with my eyes wide open.

Sorry , hmm I have been following sc recruiting and watching usc football since 1993 where I attended school had went to classes with Rob Johnson, Willie McGinest and Jason Seahorn.  I can pretty much say I know more about sc players than probably anyone on this board.  During summer, at Lyon center I would often play basketball with guys on the football team and talked to them about football like kyle waholtz and the late Darrall Russell.  Heck, I thought Dylon Mccutchen would have a hall of fame career as a Brown.  I knew Sammy knight was better than his 4.9 40 time at the combine that dropped him to either late rounds or FA pick up.   He was a real football player.  I was wrong about some players projection in the nfl like Rob Johnson, R J Soward, Matt Lienart.  I wished them to do well but l also knew Matt Barkley, John David Booty, mitch mustain, Cody Kessler pretty much will be lower tier qbs.  And I also hoped Randall Cunningham's kid who is on the sc track team who won the ncaa in high jump would play Qb at SC. He is a  jr i believe and was qb at Bishop Gorman high, LV. was the qb there before Tate Martell who was recently backup to j.t. at osu.  We also have a kid from Mater dei, power house sc pipeline along with Serra and long beach poly, have another qb JT Daniels coming in this fall who many  project to be the starter at the end of the season.  He as a jr won the gatorade high schoolnplayer of the year..just like matt barkley and Browne and reclassified to Sr. to graduate early.  I can tell you all about california  recruiting esp. Those involving usc.  And from my expert view of the two qbs....darnold is a winner.  Has that "it" factor.  Rosen was the chosen one...roster full of top 10~15 ranked recruiting classes with and after and never winning any games that mattered and lossing to inferior teams. He hasnt shown me that he can win games.  Matter of fact I think he is lesser qb than Cade Mcnown coming out of ucla.   I don't  know about Allen or Mayfield I know about the Darnold and Rosen.  Both may end up being Manning/Brady, however Darnold is a better prospect and will be better in the nfl.

[tiamat63]

Basically a "I'm an alumnus so I can't be wrong"  post...

 

Meanwhile I'm more than capable of being objective about the Bucks.

[Tour2ma]

20 minutes ago, Ashtabula said:

And from my expert view of the two qbs

Ah... an "expert"... I make pointed criticisms and you respond with your resume? Is that what experts do?

[tiamat63]

Just now, Tour2ma said:

Ah... an "expert"... I make pointed criticisms and you respond with your resume? Is that what experts do?

Still haven't gotten my response. 

[Tour2ma]

5 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Still haven't gotten my response. 

True in your case, but in mine in fairness I was mostly refuting his points, so I'm not sure what more he can add.

[tiamat63]

7 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

True in your case, but in mine in fairness I was mostly refuting his points, so I'm not sure what more he can add.

Old boy could work to explain the accuracy and decision making issues I highlighted.    He can add that along with more expert titles... would satisfy my request.

[SD_Tom]

1 hour ago, Ashtabula said:

Sorry , hmm I have been following sc recruiting and watching usc football since 1993 where I att3nded school had went to classes with Rob Johnson, Willie Mcginest and jason Seahorn.  I can pretty much say I know more about sc players than probably anyone on this board.  During summer, at Lyon center I would often play basketball with guys on the football team and talknto them about football like kyle waholtz and the late Darrall Russell.  Heck, I thought dylon Mccutchen would have a hall of fame career as a Brown.  I knew Sammy knight was better than his 4.9 40 time at the combine that dropped him to either late rounds or FA pick up.   He was a real football player.  I was wrong about some players projection in the nfl like Rob Johnson, R J Soward, Matt Lienart.  I wished them to do well but l also knew Matt Barkley, John david booty, mitch mustain, Cody cassler pretty much will be lower tier qbs.  And I also hoped Randell Cunningham's kid who is on the sc track team who won the ncaa in high jump would play Qb at SC. He is a  jr i believe and was qb at Bishop Gorman high, LV. was the qb there before Tate Martell who was recently backup to j.t. at osu.  We also have a kid from Mater dei, power house sc pipeline along with Serra and long beach poly, have another qb JT Daniels coming in this fall who many  project to be the starter at the end of the season.  He as a jr won the gatorade high schoolnplayer of the year..just like matt barkley and Browne and reclassified to Sr. to graduate early.  I can tell you all about california  recruiting esp. Those involving usc.  And from my expert view of the two qbs....darnold is a winner.  Has that "it" factor.  Rosen was the chosen one...roster full of top 10~15 ranked recruiting classes with and after and never winning any games that mattered and lossing to inferior teams. He hasnt shown me that he can win games.  Matter of fact I think he is lesser qb than Cade Mcnown coming out of ucla.   I don't  know about Allen or Mayfield I know about the Darnold and Rosen.  Both may end up being Manning/Brady, however Darnold is a better prospect and will be better in the nfl.

An SC alum preferring an SC qb over a UCLA one. 

 

[Ashtabula]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Wasn't aware Rosen was doing rails at half-time in the locker room. 

Don't get the Leaf jokes at all. 

 

But I did watch an Aaron Rodgers highlight and kept hearing from Burman about Rodgers 'attitude' adding to his draft slide. 

....feels remarkably similar.

All the problems are fixable because he hasn't  had much coaching up until now.  So there is risk of him not able to overcome it.  But from what I have seen shows me he has a lot of fight and willingness to improve.  And Like I have beening saying he addressed some of that by making some noticable improvements since Cotton bowl to his pro day.  

Rosen in the other hand has no excuses with his great machanics and skills that he couldn't  make his team better and win.  

Isnt it the qb's job to lead his team to win? Isnt it what great qb are judged by?  

[Ashtabula]

1 hour ago, SD_Tom said:

An SC alum preferring an SC qb over a UCLA one. 

 

This was to rebuff his comment about wiki sourcing....to highlight my interest/knowledge goes deeper than he seem to allegedly indicate.

[SD_Tom]

31 minutes ago, Ashtabula said:

All the problems are fixable because he hasn't  had much coaching up until now.  So there is risk of him not able to overcome it.  But from what I have seen shows me he has a lot of fight and willingness to improve.  And Like I have beening saying he addressed some of that by making some noticable improvements since Cotton bowl to his pro day.  

Rosen in the other hand has no excuses with his great machanics and skills that he couldn't  make his team better and win.  

Isnt it the qb's job to lead his team to win? Isnt it what great qb are judged by?  

USC averaged 32.6 PPG, and gave up 26.3 PPG. 

UCLA averaged 32.5 PPG and gave up 36.8 PPG

Rushing totals...USC ranked #33, UCLA ranked #114

but yeah, keep lying to yourself that it's all on Rosen. What a bum. 

[Westside Steve]

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/30/2018-draft-josh-allen-sam-darnold-tyrod-taylor-browns-bills

[jiggins7919]

I have a feeling that Josh Rosen's injury history is a bit overplayed, but his concussion that held him out for significant time has to be a concern...ESPECIALLY to a team like ours who knows first hand how concussions affect a QB. I'm sure all these guys look great throwing the pill in shorts, but the one thing I want to know is who was the best QB at progressing through multiple reads and then firing a strike? Who has THAT ability above all the others? My untrained eye tells me Rosen did this more than others. I could hardly find examples of Josh Allen doing this. 

To me, that's the most important thing an NFL QB has to be able to do on a routine basis. Snap, scan, fire...ACCURATELY. Rosen reminds me a little bit of Matt Ryan in this way, although maybe not quite as good in some areas. I want to know if Sam Darnold can scan in the pocket. He seems to get a little excited and then run to his right. Don't get me wrong, he's dang good at it, but it's a good way to die in the NFL, and defenses will figure that crap out quickly. If our coaches and scouts determine Darnold can learn to stay in the pocket and scan the field without panicking, then he's probably the choice. Darnold has my ideal blend of speed, power, arm talent, and toughness. He does not throw as pretty as Rosen, but he's way more athletic, and I think that's almost necessary in today's game. 

The biggest question mark is Baker Mayfield. In his college offense, he wasn't asked to scan the field and fire the ball often. Those dang air raid schemes make it very difficult to get a handle on how the QB will project. Baker has to be considered because he's so good at getting the ball where he wants it, and he's adept at hitting his guy in stride. I know much has been said about Rosen's personality, and how he might not be the most "likeable" guy on the field. Conversely, Darnold seems to be the quiet, stoic, and rock solid guy. Baker, on the other hand, is a different story. I actually think his personality is JUST what we need on our team. We could use a little fire, a touch of moxie. We've been the NFL whipping boy for far too long, and I could totally see Baker helping to change that. Baker Mayfield and the Dawg Pound....I can see it. 

I think I've gotten to the point where I can see each of these guys wearing a Browns uniform. Each of them has a unique skill set, and their own detractors. The hard part that I'm just now realizing is that whoever we take is likely NOT to play this year. How crazy is that? Having the #1 pick and not getting to see the new toy?! Of course, not playing the rookie is often the plan until the plan turns upside down, lol. And considering Hue Jackson is on the hottest hot seat there is, I have a hard time believing he'd draft a QB #1 and then never get to play him considering he might not be back in 2019. So I'm thinking we see our rookie at some point. 

[Tour2ma]

On 3/29/2018 at 4:03 PM, tiamat63 said:

Don't get the Leaf jokes at all.

You looked in on that other section enough to know that logic has nothing to do with cal's posts when he's attacking someone... matters not what that someone is a candidate for. Browns QB or President... same same.

It goes no deeper than him comparing the worst QB prospect he can think of to the QB prospect he likes least.

On 3/29/2018 at 8:25 PM, Ashtabula said:

All the problems are fixable because he hasn't  had much coaching up until now.  So there is risk of him not able to overcome it.  But from what I have seen shows me he has a lot of fight and willingness to improve.  And Like I have beening saying he addressed some of that by making some noticable improvements since Cotton bowl to his pro day.  

Rosen in the other hand has no excuses with his great machanics and skills that he couldn't  make his team better and win.  

Isnt it the qb's job to lead his team to win? Isnt it what great qb are judged by?  

You should have stopped with being USC biased... Instead now you are on the thin ice of:

• bad coaching ---> ingrained bad habits...
• but all are fixable because of want to...
• as exhibited by "improvements" since his last, 11-on-11 game in his 2-on-0, Pro-day, beauty pageant.... AND....
• The only true measure of a QB on a 22-man team is W/L ratio...

That about sum it up?

 

[Ashtabula]

11 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

You looked in on that other section enough to know that logic has nothing to do with cal's posts when he's attacking someone... matters not what that someone is a candidate for. Browns QB or President... same same.

It goes no deeper than him comparing the worst QB prospect he can think of to the QB prospect he likes least.

You should have stopped with being USC biased... Instead now you are on the thin ice of:

• bad coaching ---> ingrained bad habits...
• but all are fixable because of want to...
• as exhibited by "improvements" since his last, 11-on-11 game in his 2-on-0, Pro-day, beauty pageant.... AND....
• The only true measure of a QB on a 22-man team is W/L ratio...

That about sum it up?

 

In this article which is about Mayfield pretty much says Baker and Sam is the most accurate and the rest are far behind.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/22/baker-mayfield-advance-analytics-nfl-draft-oklahoma-pff