Darnold at #1?

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Who else had moxie? (Charlie Frye)

And he's a winner! (Colt McCoy)

And he wants to be here! (Johnny Manziel)

 

In his defense, I felt Pistolas had a reasonable shot at being a solid QB until he got hurt. 

[Louisville Slugger]

Who's your guy? It's easy to bash other people opinions without ever actually sticking your neck out there. There are pros and cons for all of these guys so as soon as you name your guy we can actually have a conversation

[LogicIsForSquares]

13 minutes ago, Louisville Slugger said:

Who's your guy? It's easy to bash other people opinions without ever actually sticking your neck out there. There are pros and cons for all of these guys so as soon as you name your guy we can actually have a conversation

Tia has been vocal about liking Rosen.

As for me: it goes Darnold (definitely needs a year to get squared away because mechanics are garbage), Rosen (still concerns about the noggin; without the concussions would be my number 1 by far), Mayfield (Big 12 QB with all the Big 12 QB pitfalls), Jackson (crazy athlete with dookie mechanics), and Allen (avoids 60% accuracy like it is ball cancer). 

[Louisville Slugger]

 

14 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

Tia has been vocal about liking Rosen.

As for me: it goes Darnold (definitely needs a year to get squared away because mechanics are garbage), Rosen (still concerns about the noggin; without the concussions would be my number 1 by far), Mayfield (Big 12 QB with all the Big 12 QB pitfalls), Jackson (crazy athlete with dookie mechanics), and Allen (avoids 60% accuracy like it is ball cancer). 

I agree with that break down of Rosen 100%. He is the best QB in this draft... but he can't help a team if he's on the injured reserve. He screams Sam Bradford to me so I would rather roll the dice and try and develop Lamar Jackson or go with a gamer like Mayfield. Other than Mayfields size I don't see a problem with his game. Our team could probably use a little bit of toxic masculinity.

[LogicIsForSquares]

8 minutes ago, Louisville Slugger said:

 

I agree with that break down of Rosen 100%. He is the best QB in this draft... but he can't help a team if he's on the injured reserve. He screams Sam Bradford to me so I would rather roll the dice and try and develop Lamar Jackson or go with a gamer like Mayfield. Other than Mayfields size I don't see a problem with his game. Our team could probably use a little bit of toxic masculinity.

Mayfield put up video game numbers on a stacked team in a simple offense in a conference full of cripples playing defense. 

I could give a hot sh-it about his rah-rah act. Skill and ability > dramatics.

[SD_Tom]

5 minutes ago, Louisville Slugger said:

 

I agree with that break down of Rosen 100%. He is the best QB in this draft... but he can't help a team if he's on the injured reserve. He screams Sam Bradford to me so I would rather roll the dice and try and develop Lamar Jackson or go with a gamer like Mayfield. Other than Mayfields size I don't see a problem with his game. Our team could probably use a little bit of toxic masculinity.

I'm definitely for Rosen.  He's way ahead of everyone else in this class as a passer.  We're not drafting a qb at #1 to scramble around and play hero ball. 

Rosen has far less to fix than the others 

[D Bone]

For me:

Darnold 1

Rosen 1a

Not interested in any of the rest of them in rounds 1 or 2 

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Louisville Slugger said:

Who's your guy? It's easy to bash other people opinions without ever actually sticking your neck out there. There are pros and cons for all of these guys so as soon as you name your guy we can actually have a conversation

OK, 1A Darnold, 1B Mayfield, 3 Rosen. Allen is a slightly less yucky choice than Jackson, but I don't want either. 

Don't worry LS Lamar isn't going to the Browns, 99.9% chance not. 

[Tour2ma]

How about Buck? That's what Sam's Dad wanted to name him...

12 hours ago, hoorta said:

Sam is going to have to learn to slide at the next level or he's going to get killed.

Apropo since his nickname is "Flatline"...

 

[Tour2ma]

So we;ve whittled it down to two?

I guess we'll be cancelling a couple Berea visits...

[SD_Tom]

Anyone think Jackson will be better than Allen? 

 

[hoorta]

33 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

So we've whittled it down to two?

I guess we'll be cancelling a couple Berea visits...

Nah, you know better. We'll bring 'em all in- try and keep the rest of the league guessing. 

Don't you just love those media pronouncements? It's Darnold or Allen?  Just because we didn't go to Rosen's Pro Day doesn't mean much...  

[Ashtabula]

On 2018. 3. 27. at 1:53 PM, tiamat63 said:

 

USC may have scored 27 but, to me at least, this is the game I watched that most scares me about Darnold's ability at the pro level.        If you haven't watched the game vs Washy St.  I suggest you do.    So many things here that just aren't good which would show their ugly head again and various points throughout the season.

He had 3 oline starters missing on this Road  trip had to break in 3 first time starters The gameswas played after ONLY 4 day rest.  They played on THURSDAY in Pullman, Washington. Took less than 50 players on that trip because they were banged up.  If you watch reci3vers made route mistakes, not learning the right calls.  Only reliable reciever on this trip was Deontay Burnett.  Vaughns, rs freshman, broke out in this game for the first time bur still making freshman mistakes.  You do realize pac 12 has arguably the  best secondary talent in college ball because all the qbs and recievers in the league, right? Just go back last decade and see how many NFL starters are from the pac 12.

[The User from Cleveland]

On 3/22/2018 at 1:11 PM, Ashtabula said:

4. His grandfather, D!ck Hammer, was a basketball and volleyball player at SC.  Later participated in the Olympics in volleyball.  Later, became the original Marboroman.  He has cool in his genes.  Most of his immediate family members were college athletes.

His grandpa's name was Dlck Hammer? Ok, we should definitely take Darnold first overall now.

[Ashtabula]

18 hours ago, The Gipper said:

The theory propounded on this is that this is just more of Rosen's "I don't want to play in Cleveland" schtick.   He asked his former coach to hype up some other QB to go to the Browns, thinking that that would persuade the Browns to not take him.

 

On 2018. 3. 27. at 9:34 AM, SD_Tom said:

Jim Mora thinks Darnold is the best fit for the Browns.  Pretty interesting.  He has stated before that he thinks Rosen and Darnold are both going to be awesome. 

Mora actually recruited Rosen and coached him for his entire ucla tenure.   Dline at ucla was very talented when they played Usc and could not faze Darnold.    Mckinnely 1st rd, dt Vanderdoes 3rd last year.  They recruited well while sc was still under NCAA sactions, hauling in players that limited sc from offering around the West.

[Ashtabula]

 I will even say  ucla oline was better than USC's in the past 2 years while darnold.was the qb.  SC after carroll left and NCAA sactions hit, stupid Kiffen/ Sarkisian mostly focused on skilled players...oline suffered the most  and I will say that past two years our oline has be3n the  most pathetic oline group ever.  Having no one projected to go in the first 3 rounds last year and this year.  Hell, no oline player was good enough to get an invitation to the combine this year.  Last year two were invited theu were the slowest players at the combine last year.  Since 1990s SC had so many NFL olineman...perhap one of the most if not the most until last 5 years no more 1st or 2nd round talents on the oline. Boselli, Baker,matt and sam Kilil Tyron Smith to name top off my head.

[LogicIsForSquares]

3 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

Anyone think Jackson will be better than Allen? 

 

I do.

[gumby73]

55 minutes ago, Ashtabula said:

 oline suffered the most  and I will say that past two years our oline has been the  most pathetic oline group ever. 

Welcome to the Browns OL. We now lose a HOF LT & the hope is to fill position with S.Coleman going from barely playing in 16 with 1 sack. To playing in 17 to tone of 8 sacks & most hurries from RT.Durango gave up 6 sacks in 16 than 10 in 17.Since 2015 this team ranked 30th,32nd to 27th, in hurries & sacks..Hell yes you get Tyrod & Stanton take those Qb hit for a year  Rosen & Darnold both ranked in the 20's under pressure.Mayfield ranks #1 under pressure. Allen's size may win out as a pinata, but his mechanics under pressure are god awful..The Browns staff can only help Darnold or any QB's upside by sitting in 18. My issue with Mayfield is what I thought & showed up at Senior Bowl. In a collapsing pocket his size can't see & balls were batted down in passing windows..If am Dorsey, ya never pass on your best QB option due to surrounding Issues..#1 Rosen..#2a/b Mayfield than Darnold (titanic faces large waves, under 30 days)  

[Ashtabula]

58 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

Welcome to the Browns OL. We now lose a HOF LT & the hope is to fill position with S.Coleman going from barely playing in 16 with 1 sack. To playing in 17 to tone of 8 sacks & most hurries from RT.Durango gave up 6 sacks in 16 than 10 in 17.Since 2015 this team ranked 30th,32nd to 27th, in hurries & sacks..Hell yes you get Tyrod & Stanton take those Qb hit for a year  Rosen & Darnold both ranked in the 20's under pressure.Mayfield ranks #1 under pressure. Allen's size may win out as a pinata, but his mechanics under pressure are god awful..The Browns staff can only help Darnold or any QB's upside by sitting in 18. My issue with Mayfield is what I thought & showed up at Senior Bowl. In a collapsing pocket his size can't see & balls were batted down in passing windows..If am Dorsey, ya never pass on your best QB option due to surrounding Issues..#1 Rosen..#2a/b Mayfield than Darnold (titanic faces large waves, under 30 days)  

Rosen couldn't  win at ucla when they were projected to challenge for the pac 12 title.  On paper they were as talented as any team in the pac 12.  They under achieved big time.  Rosen the chosen supposed to save ucla football as the #1 rated player out of high school but lost to bad teams and decent teams.  He did not make his teammates better.  Since 2014 ucla recruiting was in the top 20 until last year.  Watch his games and Darnold against the common opponents.  It's  night and day.  Watch vs. 2 Arizona schools and a quality opponent  Washington in 2017.  Against U of A he throws 3 picks has qb rating in the 90's. All three games his completion percentage in the 58% that's  Josh Allen range. Against Washington he has less than 100 yards passing.   In 2016 as a rs freshman  Darnold beats then undefeated Washington team at Washington.  Look, when darnold faced tough teams and won most of them and even the loses are headliners because they are.tough teams like Ohio st.  Rosen couldn't  win vs lesser teams.  Go watch those games he lost.  There are alot since he lost 13 games won only 17 games in 3 seasons he played at ucla.  

[The Gipper]

14 hours ago, Louisville Slugger said:

I sure hope this isn' the case. Allen isn't a 1st round prospect and I have really soured on Darnold. He looks really timid in the pocket and seems to panic when the pass rush heats up. 

I really think Mayfield is the guy that Dorsey is falling for. Moxy, accuracy, leadership, mobility, and he's a winner. Mayfield at 1 and Chubb at 4 lock it in.

Or....he may be the guy that JH is telling him to fall for.    There IS that concern.  hee hee.

[SD_Tom]

4 hours ago, Ashtabula said:

Rosen couldn't  win at ucla when they were projected to challenge for the pac 12 title.  On paper they were as talented as any team in the pac 12.  They under achieved big time.  Rosen the chosen supposed to save ucla football as the #1 rated player out of high school but lost to bad teams and decent teams.  He did not make his teammates better.  Since 2014 ucla recruiting was in the top 20 until last year.  Watch his games and Darnold against the common opponents.  It's  night and day.  Watch vs. 2 Arizona schools and a quality opponent  Washington in 2017.  Against U of A he throws 3 picks has qb rating in the 90's. All three games his completion percentage in the 58% that's  Josh Allen range. Against Washington he has less than 100 yards passing.   In 2016 as a rs freshman  Darnold beats then undefeated Washington team at Washington.  Look, when darnold faced tough teams and won most of them and even the loses are headliners because they are.tough teams like Ohio st.  Rosen couldn't  win vs lesser teams.  Go watch those games he lost.  There are alot since he lost 13 games won only 17 games in 3 seasons he played at ucla.  

Darnold also had an NFL rb in Ronald Jones. Had better talent at skill positions. 

Hard to win games when your defense allows 37ppg and gives up close to 500 yds a game

[tiamat63]

12 hours ago, Ashtabula said:

He had 3 oline starters missing on this Road  trip had to break in 3 first time starters The gameswas played after ONLY 4 day rest.  They played on THURSDAY in Pullman, Washington. Took less than 50 players on that trip because they were banged up.  If you watch reci3vers made route mistakes, not learning the right calls.  Only reliable reciever on this trip was Deontay Burnett.  Vaughns, rs freshman, broke out in this game for the first time bur still making freshman mistakes.  You do realize pac 12 has arguably the  best secondary talent in college ball because all the qbs and recievers in the league, right? Just go back last decade and see how many NFL starters are from the pac 12.

 

That doesn't excuse @ 0:12.     Take a look where the lead foot is pointing when the throwing motion starts.    See how the ball sails?   That's max pro, champ.   Boy has all day to pass then.

How's about 1:10 where he blatantly throws into a rolled look though he has plenty of time to throw? 

@ 1:55 is an example of both.  You have a lazy route by the receiver who should have pressed the DB to get him to flip his hips a little.   But ultimately it's on the QB.  That's his read and he see's a CB, hips and shoulders square, sitting on the route yet never looked off of it.  

 

@2:10  fade with absolutely trash ball placement.   Even if it was back shoulder... still not ideal placement.

@2:23  Bunny hop and launch.   Not a negative per-say, but a funny play no less.

@2:30 with pretty poor ball placement again.    WR gets the DB to open his hips then breaks it out.  Sam places it too far outside.  Getting flashbacks of his last pick then over corrects.

@3:50   absolutely inexcusable.  You win the down by avoiding the sack, you consciously say no to the throw away.  Then you attempt to run right back up the middle and for good measure hit it with the old Weeden Shovel pass.      These are examples of poor decision making while under pressure.  Pressure that will be unavoidable in the NFL.

So far the rollout game/half field stuff has been his best work.  But that does not a good NFL QB make.

 

@4:20   this has popped up several times throughout the season when I've watched.   Locking into the pre-snap.    The box is stacked and you have a true zero look to the outside.   What's worse is that you see the field CB already has his hips turned.     These are plays where, in my mind, elite NFL QB prospects are not afraid to attack the perimeter.

 

 

Is the Oline good? No.   Are the receivers good?  Not really.  They need some seasoning.     However when presented with opportunities to make plays, or at worst - not have a play potentially turn into a disaster, the decision making the execution becomes an issue.       I could do this with quite a few videos of his.   In the meantime, you're welcome to defend the player all you want.  

 

 

[Tour2ma]

On 3/26/2018 at 11:53 PM, tiamat63 said:

 

USC may have scored 27 but, to me at least, this is the game I watched that most scares me about Darnold's ability at the pro level.        If you haven't watched the game vs Washy St.  I suggest you do.    So many things here that just aren't good which would show their ugly head again and various points throughout the season.

Wow... finally took the time to look.

All depends on his feet doesn't it? And most the first half they were spectacularly bad. Early overthrow he was doing his bunny hop into his set. Completed a couple of quick bubbles without ever setting. Predetermined two GL throws... one picked and a second pick dropped. Finally at start of Q4 he got his feet under him and aligned with the direction of the throw and it was a beauty (the pass with PI called).

And then there's the Wheezy special... oy!

EDIT: had I just turned the page I could have said, "What tia said." Even included the times... and the hop...

[Tour2ma]

12 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

Anyone think Jackson will be better than Allen?

I think his floor is higher

7 hours ago, Ashtabula said:

Rosen couldn't  win at ucla when they were projected to challenge for the pac 12 title.  On paper they were as talented as any team in the pac 12.  They under achieved big time.  Rosen the chosen supposed to save ucla football as the #1 rated player out of high school but lost to bad teams and decent teams.  He did not make his teammates better.  Since 2014 ucla recruiting was in the top 20 until last year.  Watch his games and Darnold against the common opponents.  It's  night and day.  Watch vs. 2 Arizona schools and a quality opponent  Washington in 2017.  Against U of A he throws 3 picks has qb rating in the 90's. All three games his completion percentage in the 58% that's  Josh Allen range. Against Washington he has less than 100 yards passing.   In 2016 as a rs freshman  Darnold beats then undefeated Washington team at Washington.  Look, when darnold faced tough teams and won most of them and even the loses are headliners because they are.tough teams like Ohio st.  Rosen couldn't  win vs lesser teams.  Go watch those games he lost.  There are alot since he lost 13 games won only 17 games in 3 seasons he played at ucla.  

So Darnold was held down due to teammates dragging him down, but Rosen is downgraded for failing to elevate play of others around him?

Is that about it?

[Ashtabula]

6 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

Darnold also had an NFL rb in Ronald Jones. Had better talent at skill positions. 

Hard to win games when your defense allows 37ppg and gives up close to 500 yds a game

So you are saying that first, so his defense made his completion percentage in the 50s? His defense made him throw 3 ints?  So all ints weren't  Kiser's fault then.  Second, even though players they have is better than the oppsing team, it's  okay to lose the game as long as you have good mechanic and footwork?  Losing 13 games out of 30 in college mostly against lesser opponents is the quality you look for in a qb? 

[tiamat63]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Wow... finally took the time to look.

All depends on his feet doesn't it? And most the first half they were spectacularly bad. Early overthrow he was doing his bunny hop into his set. Completed a couple of quick bubbles without ever setting. Predetermined two GL throws... one picked and a second pick dropped. Finally at start of Q4 he got his feet under him and aligned with the direction of the throw and it was a beauty (the pass with PI called).

And then there's the Wheezy special... oy!

EDIT: had I just turned the page I could have said, "What tia said." Even included the times... and the hop...

The footwork, especially at the top of his 5 &7 step drops is just pure comedy.  Nevermind the other things like how his hips don't come around in sync with his arm. 

Why would you want to draft a QB where you spend the bulk of his first off season fixing his terrible mechanics when you could take Rosen - who you could immediately begin working on absorbing the playbook, adapting to NFL speeds and the mental/classroom work of the game because he doesn't possess such incredibly obvious flaws?!?

 

When the #1 pick is in and should the Browns not call Rosen's name, then they're only making it as hard on themselves as humanly possible.

[SD_Tom]

25 minutes ago, Ashtabula said:

So you are saying that first, so his defense made his completion percentage in the 50s? His defense made him throw 3 ints?  So all ints weren't  Kiser's fault then.  Second, even though players they have is better than the oppsing team, it's  okay to lose the game as long as you have good mechanic and footwork?  Losing 13 games out of 30 in college mostly against lesser opponents is the quality you look for in a qb? 

His career stats put his comp % at 62 I think.  You act like he was terrible in every game. Yeah,  he put up 90 yds in a game he left with a concussion.  That's an exception not the rule. What was the rule is he got hit way too much.  

Yeah,  the wins argument... Great call.  Then countless usc QB's should be world beaters in the NFL,  cuz they all win almost every single game.  Didn't really work out that way though. 

Head to head.  Rosen was 32/52 for 421 yds 3 tds and 1 int. Darnold was 17/28 for 264 zero tds (he had 1 rushing) and 1 int. 

So yeah,  ucla lost but it wasn't because Darnold was way better. 

 

[Ashtabula]

2 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

His career stats put his comp % at 62 I think.  You act like he was terrible in every game. Yeah,  he put up 90 yds in a game he left with a concussion.  That's an exception not the rule. What was the rule is he got hit way too much.  

Yeah,  the wins argument... Great call.  Then countless usc QB's should be world beaters in the NFL,  cuz they all win almost every single game.  Didn't really work out that way though. 

Head to head.  Rosen was 32/52 for 421 yds 3 tds and 1 int. Darnold was 17/28 for 264 zero tds (he had 1 rushing) and 1 int. 

So yeah,  ucla lost but it wasn't because Darnold was way better. 

 

Hmm...yeah Carson Palmer was barely above .500 winning perc before his senior year.  He blossomed under better coaching (norm chow, carroll) and defense, .  When the head coach was asked about darnold's funky thowing motion and bad footwork, he was quoted saying leave things that is working for us.  Basically, they didn't  want to tinker with it because we were winning.  SC started 1-3 in 2016 and most people in the program didn't believe in the hiring the current staff and players seemed to play below their potential.  When Darnold stepped in he changed the team into winners, and many close to the program will say he was the main factor for the turn around.  They also say coaching and play calling has hurt the program.  People who knows football like John Robinson, Lonnie Lott, Marcus Allen all have stated how this team lacked physicality along the line of scrimmage since the Coach Helton tenure.  They all have said how special Darnold is as well.  Listen to what Stanford coach says about Darnold he says best anticipatory thrower since Luck.  Listen to Joel Klatts and other experts who has watched and followed pac 12 football they will all say how special Darnold is.  And I agree with Jim Mora as well Darnold is better fit than Rosen. I do think Rosen has great potential, just pointing out there are more questions than Darnold.  I get what you say.  You make rational argument against him but I agree with the experts who have seen the games- how he makes 3rd and long possible every time he has the ball.  Comeback drives are possible with him.  With Kessler and Matt Barkley we didnt feel that way during the game.  They couldn't  overcome thing and situation.  Darnold did more often than not.   If you are basing on his game highlights tapes and not watching the entire game how things breakdown during the game and he seems to rise above that.  In the past 15 years of watching pac 12 football only qb comparable is Luck.

This is my take on darnold:

Pluses

One of the best Anticipatory thrower go checknthe comment by all of his oppsing coaches

Mobility in and out of the pocket- deceptively quick

Keeps his eyes down field at all times- this was one of the weakest when Cody kessler was the starter at sc.  He loves dumping the ball 5yard shy of the first down all the time.  Plus he had a weak arm.

He makes his teammates better.

Blue collar work ethics.  He was always an under dog. And he was beating the 1st team defense as a scout team qb as a teue freshman.

Toughness- He was first recruited as a linebacker

Youth - only 20...he will be much much better than Weeden when he was drafted as a 28 yr old.  As he physically matures he will get stronger and even bigger/taller.

Winner- even with his turnover , which is him trying to compensate for lack of talent experience around him, puts the team in a position to win.  Only two was blowout loss which was at ND and Cotton bowl.  20-4

 

Minuses

Turnovers- fumbles are well documented can be fixed by keeping both hands on the ball/ half of the ints were on th wrs for wrong-bad route running-

Youth - was a primarily a linebacker and wr as a sophomore inhigh school.  Was thrusted into the starting role when the started Travis Wilson qb, who would start for Utah, was injured.  He needs more experience at the position.  But so does all the qbs in this draft.  He also tries to do too much that's  lack of experience and coaching.

Footwork- he definitely needs to work on that.  At least he shows progress at his pro day.  When his feet are set he is accurate as any qb in the draft.

 

 

 

 

[tiamat63]

You've still yet to respond to my more in depth criticisms that came with video evidence.  I'll be happy to provide more from this past season alone.  But the anticipation you speak of only tends to apply to Sam's primary read. 

[Tour2ma]

Doing a little fact checking and came across this photo evidence of how not to align for a throw...