From nobody to the top of the first round of the draft - Josh Allen

[calfoxwc]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/article39484191.html

Why star college QBs are struggling in the pros

By Laura Keeley

lkeeley@newsobserver.com

October 16, 2015 05:09 PM

Updated October 17, 2015 03:46 PM

It is a hundred-million dollar question: Where are the next great NFL quarterbacks?

On the heels of the notable struggles of former college stars such as Washington’s Robert Griffin III and Cleveland’s Johnny Manziel, the Wall Street Journal published an article entitled, “Why the NFL Has a Quarterback Crisis”. Several NFL coaches and executives were quoted pushing a similar theory: the proliferation of the no-huddle, spread offenses at the college level is churning out quarterbacks unprepared for success at the next level.

Why star college QBs are struggling in the pros

By Laura Keeley

lkeeley@newsobserver.com

 

October 16, 2015 05:09 PM

Updated October 17, 2015 03:46 PM

It is a hundred-million dollar question: Where are the next great NFL quarterbacks?

On the heels of the notable struggles of former college stars such as Washington’s Robert Griffin III and Cleveland’s Johnny Manziel, the Wall Street Journal published an article entitled, “Why the NFL Has a Quarterback Crisis”. Several NFL coaches and executives were quoted pushing a similar theory: the proliferation of the no-huddle, spread offenses at the college level is churning out quarterbacks unprepared for success at the next level.

“They don’t coach anything,” Buffalo Bills coach Rex Ryan was quoted as saying about college coaches.

Duke coach David Cutcliffe, one of the more celebrated quarterbacks coaches in the game, saw the article and chuckled to himself.

“I think that’s kind of nonsense talk, to be honest with you,” he said.

Trent Dilfer, the 14-year NFL veteran who now oversees the Nike and ESPN-backed Elite 11 high school quarterback competition, also saw the article. He tweeted it out, along with a one-word commentary: interesting.

There is no doubt that there are significant differences between the role of the quarterback at the college and NFL levels – “I could make a very strong argument that from a quarterback’s perspective, they are almost different sports,” Dilfer said. But he doesn’t buy the idea that all potentially great NFL signal callers have disappeared.

“When I hear the term, there’s no good quarterbacks coming or they’re all bad, it’s so wrong. High school quarterbacking is better than it’s ever been. The talent pool for quarterbacks is off-the-hook good. It is ridiculous how many kids have NFL potential.

“I saw 50 kids this year – 50! – that were better than me when I was 18. They were better than me when I was 20. Better than me maybe when I was a junior all-American (at Fresno State). They can do more with the ball. They are better athletes. They’ve been exposed to more football.”

Somewhere along the quarterback pipeline, there is a disconnect.

Uptempo pace slowing development

The NFL types are right about one thing: The version of the spread-option offense popular at the college level is markedly different from the offenses run in the pros.

Take former Baylor quarterback Bryce Petty, who completed 62.2 percent of his passes and threw for 8,055 yards and 61 touchdowns against just 10 interceptions in his final two years in Waco, Texas. He had to wait until the third day of the 2015 NFL draft to hear the Jets call his name with the 103rd overall pick in the 4th round.

“Honestly, when I did Bryce Petty’s film – and I love Bryce, he was my favorite quarterback in the whole draft, in terms of a project – but there were like 25 transferable snaps from the entire season,” Dilfer said. “I watched every snap, and there were, like, 25 times where he did something he was actually going to do in the NFL.”

Baylor is at the apex of the uptempo spread-offense trend, getting an offensive play off every 18 seconds in 2014, according to data from SB Nation’s Football Study Hall. In comparison, the fastest NFL team, the Philadelphia Eagles, ran an offensive play every 21.95 seconds, according to Football Outsiders – that would rank 29th in the FBS.

Locally, North Carolina ranked fourth nationally in terms of tempo, running a play every 18.8 seconds. Duke ran one every 22.2 seconds, good for 32nd nationally, and N.C. State’s play every 24 seconds ranks 69th. Duke and UNC run no-huddle offenses with spread elements and quarterbacks who can run and throw. The Wolfpack huddle, but quarterback Jacoby Brissett certainly fits the dual-threat mode.

Last season, UNC quarterback Marquise Williams ranked 11th in the ACC with an average of 60.23 rushing yards per game. Brissett had the next highest average for a quarterback with an average of 40.69 rushing yards per game, and he rushed for 167 yards in the Wolfpack’s best game of the year, a 35-7 win at UNC. Brissett is the best QB prospect out of the ACC for the 2016 NFL Draft, and he is projected by CBS Sports as a mid-to-late-round pick.

“He’s exactly what they want,” N.C. State coach Dave Doeren said of Brissett. “He’s big, he’s strong, he can make the throws, he’s intelligent, competitive, mobile, he puts in the time, mentally tough.”

No time to adjust

With college offenses moving at breakneck speed, a quarterback isn’t spending much time, if any, making pre-snap adjustments based on what the defense is showing, and he is probably taking less than 2.5 seconds after the ball is snapped to either throw it, hand it off, or tuck it and run himself. At the end of every play, as the referee spots the ball, college quarterbacks look to the sideline, where the play is signaled in either by a big sign held up or a staff member making various arm motions. And then it’s go time.

In the NFL, plays are radioed into the quarterback in complicated sentence-length strings, and then the quarterback evaluates the defense and makes any necessary adjustments before the snap.

“That’s the biggest thing that the pro guys are frustrated with, is that the college quarterback, for the most part, is managed from the sideline,” Dilfer said. “They are making very few dynamic decisions at the line of scrimmage or after the ball is snapped. Dynamic decision-making before the ball is snapped and after the ball is snapped is what separates the best pro quarterbacks from everybody else.

“I put no blame on the colleges – it has become so intense at the college level, winning and losing,” Dilfer said. “It is all about winning to generate revenue and filling the seats and paying for other programs, because football plays for the rest of your sports.

So if you have to win, you’re going to find the easiest, most repeatable way of winning. For the quarterback, that’s going to more of a catch-and-throw offense.”

But just because a team runs an up-tempo, spread-option offense doesn’t mean a coach can’t teach his quarterback the finer points of the position. At Duke, for example, starting quarterback Thomas Sirk practices taking snaps from under center (even though Duke has lined up in the shotgun exclusively for years), and his day always begins around 7:05 with a 45-minute briefing with offensive coordinator Scottie Montgomery, who breaks down film with him and relays whatever observations Cutcliffe has made.

“Regardless of what offense that we would run, I’m going to teach those guys defensive football,” Cutcliffe said. “If you understand defensive football and you have good fundamentals and good mechanics, then regardless of what style of offense you’re running, a guy can be fairly successful.”

Even the field is different

It’s more than just pace that differentiates the college from the pro game. The playing surface itself is different. In the NFL, the right and left hashmarks are 18 feet, 6 inches apart, in line with the goalposts. In college football, they are significantly wider at 40 feet apart. As all plays start either on or between the hashmarks, this meaningfully affects the set-up for offenses.

At the college level, if a play starts on the left hashmark, the wide side of the field, from the left hashmark to the right sideline – called the field side – is quite wide, leaving defensive backs with much ground to cover. The spread offense is predicated on spreading the defense out, getting superior wide receivers and running backs in one-on-one matchups with less quick defenders. Tackling in space is quite difficult, especially at the college level, where the talent level varies from player to player. Get the desired matchup, and let the skill player beat his man and rack up big gains.

With the narrower hashmarks, the field side never gets as wide as it does in the college game. This reduces the space the bigger, faster stronger, smarter and more prepared NFL defenders have to cover. And there aren’t large talent gaps from player to player to exploit – only the top 1.6 percent of college players make it to the NFL.

“In the NFL, literally each defender can be two guys in one, almost,” Dilfer said. “They have the mentality to see the patterns ahead of time and physically are fast and strong enough to compensate for any bad position they might be in in alignment.

“The biggest thing you hear from young NFL quarterbacks, is, wait a second, he wasn’t supposed to be there. That one statement tells the big picture of the difference between college quarterbacks and pro quarterbacks. In college, they are where they’re supposed to be. You line them up, you spread them out, they’re there. In the NFL, you line them up, you spread them out and they’re totally in different spots.”

Evaluating quarterbacks

Cutcliffe has a solution to the so-called quarterback crisis.

“I don’t think the Xs and Os have anything to do with it,” he said. “It sounds like a pretty convenient way to say we’re struggling evaluating.

“I’ve always thought most of the time, not all, their evaluation process of quarterbacks is very, very average, compared to how I would go about it myself,” he said of the NFL evaluation process. “So, I’m not surprised they miss as much as they do. Isn’t that what they’re really talking about?”

Cutcliffe declined to reveal all of his tricks of the trade for evaluating quarterbacks, but he did say, “There is a thoroughness, knowing who you are dealing with – there are so many things that you can probe besides just watching tape.”

Cutcliffe was front-and-center for one of the more misguided quarterback debates, as it turned out: In 1998, there was a spirited debate over whether Cutcliffe’s quarterback at Tennessee, Peyton Manning, or Washington State’s Ryan Leaf should be taken No. 1 in the NFL draft. Manning is one of the NFL’s all-time greatest quarterbacks. Leaf started just 21 career games and has almost spent as much time in prison as he did in the NFL.

Dilfer agreed with Cutcliffe’s assessment of the NFL’s evaluating process.

“It is the worst-evaluated and worst-developed position in the NFL,” he said. “I have conversations with GMs and coaches about quarterbacks that literally I get off the phone and I go to my wife and I vent. And I say I cannot believe that this is a decision maker in the NFL, and he has no idea, none, zero, what it means to be the quarterback, what you’re looking for in a quarterback and how to develop a quarterback.

If I was an NFL general manager, I would pay David Cutcliffe whatever amount of money would get him away from Duke, and I would have him be my chief quarterback evaluator/consultant in my organization. That’s what I would do. And I trust myself a lot. There are a handful of people that truly understand all the layers of evaluating and developing quarterbacks.”

Cutcliffe wouldn’t attempt to wow any NFL types with fancy terminology in attempts to sound smart. To him, the answer to the question of what makes a great quarterback is quite simple.

“Quarterbacks can play in any style of offense,” he said. “If they’re great quarterbacks – when people say pro-style, what you’re really saying is: Can a guy throw the football?”

Laura Keeley: 919-829-4556, @laurakeeley

Major differences between college and NFL offenses

1) Hashmarks

▪ 18 feet, 6 inches apart in the NFL

▪ 40 feet apart in college

Significance: The “field” (or wide) side of the field isn’t as wide in the pros, making it harder to create 1-on-1 matchups for offensive skill players to exploit

2) Pass blocking

▪ NFL offensive linemen can move forward one yard before a pass is thrown

▪ College linemen can move forward three yards – and the rule is rarely enforced

Significance: Offenses can better trick defenses into thinking it’s a run play – as the linemen move off the line of scrimmage in a run-block look – before unleashing a pass against an ill-positioned defense

3) Dynamic decision making

▪ NFL quarterbacks receive longer play calls, read defenses, make pre-snap protection adjustments and are more deliberate with throws after the snap

▪ College plays are signaled in via signs or hand motions, the ball is snapped quickly and throws are made quickly, too

Significance: College quarterbacks must adjust to making more dynamic decisions once they reach the pros – easier said than done

[Flugel]

11 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Why thank you, sir...

Have I told you recently how extremely good-looking you are?

What a bass terd!    Okay, if I ever get a pimple on my asssss I'll make sure the selfie only goes to Ghoolie so I don't ruin that train of thought.

Now back to one of the most outrageous threads I've ever seen on the board. Peter King has a better football background than Bucky Brooks because he's willing to label UFOs indoors without any pass rushers or corners to challenge them as worthy of Cleveland's #1 pick (only to be carefully worded as "most experts").  Evidently, everything else is just fake news.  How much MD 20/20 do I need to power down in order to get on the same coherence level?

All this because Rosen wore a hat mocking Donald Trump. Make sense? It shouldn't.... But by all means - stay tuned...

[Tour2ma]

4) College players are part-time players

5) With every increase in the level of play from Pop Warner thru NFL there is a distillation of players

 

[TexasAg1969]

8 minutes ago, Flugel said:

 Peter King has a better football background than Bucky Brooks because he's willing to label Inaccurate UFOs indoors without any pass rushers or corners to challenge them as worthy of Cleveland's #1 pick (only to be carefully worded as "most experts"). 

Fixed that sentence for you.

[TexasAg1969]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

so, you rosen groupies are saying that if a qb throws a lot more passes, his accuracy improves? LOL

Actually I am just pointing out that statistics based on a 6 pass sample are totally worthless. Has nothing to do with being a groupie or not, just being a person familiar with Stat 101.

That makes me a Stat groupie.

[LondonBrown]

One game is played on the outside and one on the inside, it's a different game

[calfoxwc]

11 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Actually I am just pointing out that statistics based on a 6 pass sample are totally worthless. Has nothing to do with being a groupie or not, just being a person familiar with Stat 101.

That makes me a Stat groupie.

The real point is, just wait til Allen is the Browns pick at #1.  I saw the 6 passes, and decided to just roll with it. Stats can be informative, but what do they MEAN? that is the question. Gilbert, Richardson, Junkin, the long list of busts..they had stats.

If was drafting - I'd take less stats and more heart, leadership, love for the game, work ethic and character. That's all there is to it.

But I think it's Darnold. Too much fun. I have to go start tomato seedlings, about 500, The other 300 I think I"m going to buy from a wholesale greenhouse. I was going to stop arguing about Allen, til all the hate mongering started again...

This draft is going to be too much fun.

It's Darnold or Allen at the first overall pick. I'm thinkin Darnold, but Allen might end up the better pick. It's been said that Allen is even more athletic than Wentz, he should be able to get his footwork on the money all the time. We'll see.

[Flugel]

18 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/article39484191.html

Why star college QBs are struggling in the pros

By Laura Keeley

Significance: College quarterbacks must adjust to making more dynamic decisions once they reach the pros – easier said than done

And yet here you are arguing with everyone that if a pedestrian caliber high school QB remains an average QB in college (15 INTs in 2016 and just 16 TDs in 2017) in a junior varsity conference - he's the easily answer to all of Cleveland's prayers at #1 overall.  Just out of curiosity, when did Allen become a great QB against the types of pass rushers and corners headed for the NFL?   

And look at your female expert you think has a better football background than Bucky Brooks. Make sure you know which source is fake news folks because Cal likes to break out that cheap trick he borrows from his favorite politicians when truth gets too inconvenient for comfort...

[TexasAg1969]

4 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

The real point is, just wait til Allen is the Browns pick at #1.  I saw the 6 passes, and decided to just roll with it. Stats can be informative, but what do they MEAN? that is the question. Gilbert, Richardson, Junkin, the long list of busts..they had stats.

If was drafting - I'd take less stats and more heart, leadership, love for the game, work ethic and character. That's all there is to it.

But I think it's Darnold. Too much fun. I have to go start tomato seedlings, about 500, The other 300 I think I"m going to buy from a wholesale greenhouse. I was going to stop arguing about Allen, til all the hate mongering started again...

This draft is going to be too much fun.

It's Darnold or Allen at the first overall pick. I'm thinkin Darnold, but Allen might end up the better pick. It's been said that Allen is even more athletic than Wentz, he should be able to get his footwork on the money all the time. We'll see.

Good luck with the tomatoes. That sounds like quite a crop you'll be harvesting. Do you participate in any local farmers markets? We have two a week here. We look forward to the new veggies coming soon and the peaches up from Fredricksburg during the summer. We also like the local honey from small apiaries nearby.

[calfoxwc]

I get free raw honey from a friend - found out that bees were a lot more work than I wanted to put in -

we go on vacation - it's easy to have a friend water the garden, but take care of the bees? nope. One of these days, we'll go out west camping along the way with friends, and we don't have chickens.

But the garden - that is serious business. I was going to a farmer's market - didn't go last year - the weather ruined the plants too much.

I'm going to organnically lower the PH, etc for this coming year. I plan on canning about 50-60 quarts of tomatoes this year.

[Flugel]

25 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

The real point is, just wait til Allen is the Browns pick at #1.  I saw the 6 passes, and decided to just roll with it. Stats can be informative, but what do they MEAN? that is the question. Gilbert, Richardson, Junkin, the long list of busts..they had stats.

If was drafting - I'd take less stats and more heart, leadership, love for the game, work ethic and character. That's all there is to it.

But I think it's Darnold. Too much fun. I have to go start tomato seedlings, about 500, The other 300 I think I"m going to buy from a wholesale greenhouse. I was going to stop arguing about Allen, til all the hate mongering started again...

This draft is going to be too much fun.

It's Darnold or Allen at the first overall pick. I'm thinkin Darnold, but Allen might end up the better pick. It's been said that Allen is even more athletic than Wentz, he should be able to get his footwork on the money all the time. We'll see.

While we're waiting on the Mods to give this thread the mercy kill it desperately needs let's get Donald McLean's perspective on the Camp Allen thought process:

 

[TexasAg1969]

4 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

I get free raw honey from a friend - found out that bees were a lot more work than I wanted to put in -

we go on vacation - it's easy to have a friend water the garden, but take care of the bees? nope. One of these days, we'll go out west camping along the way with friends, and we don't have chickens.

But the garden - that is serious business. I was going to a farmer's market - didn't go last year - the weather ruined the plants too much.

I'm going to organnically lower the PH, etc for this coming year. I plan on canning about 50-60 quarts of tomatoes this year.

You hear about the Aggie that decided to raise chickens. He got his starter kit from A&M School of Agriculture of about 200 chickens, but soon wrote back that his entire crop had failed and he wondered if he had planted them facing the wrong direction or what? A&M wrote back that they could not determine the cause of his problem without a soil sample.

[mjp28]

1 hour ago, LondonBrown said:

One game is played on the outside and one on the inside, it's a different game

True.

6) Money. One of my favorite old subjects and area of study, you just cannot hand a top 22 or 23 year old young man up to a $xx,xxx,xxx signing bonus and even bigger salary and say "ok son now go out there and get killed every Sunday and do it for your colors and fans". Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t at any position especially quarterback. 

Hopefully they have a work ethic and love of and for the game like Peyton Manning and not be a total screw up like Ryan Leaf picked #1 and #2 some 20 years ago. I don't think it has improved much if any since then. These kids have never seen that kind of money and now can retire? Some try to make it in the pros (any sport) strictly for the money because it is the way for them to make a fortune, just the way it is, some of us do jobs we dislike just for the money too.

I knew a guy years back, really good college player who tried out (unsuccessfully) for the pros he said you really had to be "hard" to make it in the professional game. I wasn't sure at first what he really meant but I did put it together professional football can be a brutal sport no matter how good you were in high school or college. 

 

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

 I saw the 6 passes, and decided to just roll with it.

Of course you did.

It's like you revel in being inept. 

[Flugel]

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/article39484191.html

Why star college QBs are struggling in the pros

By Laura Keeley

Significance: College quarterbacks must adjust to making more dynamic decisions once they reach the pros – easier said than done

And yet here you are arguing with everyone that if a pedestrian caliber high school QB remains an average QB in college (15 INTs in 2016 and just 16 TDs in 2017) in a junior varsity conference - he's the easily answer to all of Cleveland's prayers at #1 overall.  Just out of curiosity, when did Allen become a great QB against the types of pass rushers and corners headed for the NFL?   And did you know you already posted this redundancy in the other thread you think all Josh Allen needs is the next Jed Clampett in? 

And look at your female expert you think has a better football background than Bucky Brooks. Make sure you know which source is fake news folks because Cal likes to break out that cheap trick he borrows from his favorite politicians when truth gets too inconvenient for comfort...

[hoorta]

12 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

gee, go ask all those "experts" that have him going #1 overall. I didn't tell em to do it.

We're not saying you did...   

4 hours ago, 7moses7 said:

Possibly a bridge QB who improved his accuracy,who’s to say Allen can’t improve his accuracy after working on it and sitting and learning the pro game for a year 

Per Tour's stats, are you willing to take the 2\9 chance at the #1 overall, he can improve, and not be the next Hackenberg hack? Or Chad Henne or Ryan Mallett? Sorry in my book you don't take a one dimensional inaccurate cannon arm QB that high. 

4 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

so, you rosen groupies are saying that if a qb throws a lot more passes, his accuracy improves? LOL

Just watch who you're calling a Rosen groupie, pal.    The two aren't related. 

3 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

yet, he went to the superbowl. and won it.

Point being - a lot more factors that just a simple completion percentage stat makes a qb.

Baltimore Ravens

Dilfer quarterback for the Ravens that season: He "wasn't elite, but he didn't make costly mistakes, and was supported by a dominant defense."^[5] Dilfer wasn't re-signed by the Ravens, making him the only quarterback to be let go after winning a Super Bowl.

How many outliers you going to pull out of your azz to try and pump up Allen? Sure- you can win a Super Bowl with Bozo the Clown at quarterback, assuming you have one of the GOAT's defenses. Da Bears did it too in '85 with Jim McMahon- 57 completion%. 

[nickers]

I think Ghoulie made a good point about them being running QB's in college and not learning from the pocket.. Everything looks like its on the move...

[mjp28]

Just now, nickers said:

I think Ghoulie made a good point about them being running QB's in college and not learning from the pocket.. Everything looks like its on the move...

Actually often in high school and college they are the better or best athletes on the team so they give them the most important job on the field.....quarterback. 

Just look at Ohio State for one example. 

[tiamat63]

Allen simply isn't the pragmatic pick.

In the NFL world, (especially for the Browns) why would I take a QB that's is already a 50/50, and potentially hurt my own team by taking that 50/50 chance on a QB with lower odds to succeed based on 80+% of QB's NOT finding greater accuracy and anticipation in the pro's?

Can anyone, even Cal, argue against that logic?      

[mjp28]

Just now, tiamat63 said:

Allen simply isn't the pragmatic pick.

In the NFL world, (especially for the Browns) why would I take a QB that's is already a 50/50, and potentially hurt my own team by taking that 50/50 chance on a QB with lower odds to succeed based on 80+% of QB's NOT finding greater accuracy and anticipation in the pro's?

Can anyone, even Cal, argue against that logic?      

I don't dispute that all have at least one flaw or another.

May some develop into successful NFL quarterbacks, possibly. Any can't miss quarterbacks doubt it. Franchise quarterbacks like Elway, Aikman, Marino, Rodgers, Brees and others, eh who knows.

The current NFL QB situation has created a feeding frenzy for experienced or even rookie candidates. 

[tiamat63]

41 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

I don't dispute that all have at least one flaw or another.

May some develop into successful NFL quarterbacks, possibly. Any can't miss quarterbacks doubt it. Franchise quarterbacks like Elway, Aikman, Marino, Rodgers, Brees and others, eh who knows.

The current NFL QB situation has created a feeding frenzy for experienced or even rookie candidates. 

 

Tour said it best, they're ALL possible...  but you don't want to go on that.  Who is more 'probable' is the pick.       

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

 Actually often in high school and college they are the better or best athletes on the team so they give them the most important job on the field.....quarterback. 

Just look at Ohio State for one example. 

It's the proliferation of the spread offense, which emphasizes a QB with athleticism over a QB who can stand in the pocket, read defenses and make the proper throw. 

The spread offense is also the reason its more difficult to scout college OLinemen too, specifically in their ability to get in a traditional three-point stance and move a defender off the LOS in the run game.

As a great football player's mother would have said: "THE SPREAD OFFENSE IS THE DEVIL!"

[gumby73]

36 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

  Who is more 'probable' is the pick.       

Still a 3 way knot here..Rosen,Darnold,Mayfield..slides downhill, s l o w l y,in that order

[tiamat63]

29 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

It's the proliferation of the spread offense, which emphasizes a QB with athleticism over a QB who can stand in the pocket, read defenses and make the proper throw. 

The spread offense is also the reason its more difficult to scout college OLinemen too, specifically in their ability to get in a traditional three-point stance and move a defender off the LOS in the run game.

As a great football player's mother would have said: "THE SPREAD OFFENSE IS THE DEVIL!"

 

The 'spread' itself is mainly just an offensive philosophy meant to remove the extra defender out of the box through formation(s).  Usually by having your outside receivers with wide(r) than traditional splits and the traditional inline TE as a slot WR or removed from the line.    You can run these concepts with a traditional passer or mobile passer.  This of course is all X's and O's theory, doesn't always work out that way as the evolution of the modern defense has countered with athletic ability and disguises to creep up the extra defender late.   Tour is the Oline guy here and sure, light box counts do help the stress of playing line, you still have to execute.     Given how advanced the running game has become with reads, veers, sweeps, inverted looks, motions, etc etc...  pulling a lineman that pulls frequently has to suck.     Tape for eval doesn't seem like it would be as hard to pour through.  He's been spot on about several of his calls, big ones that come to mind are Erving and Schreff from Iowa.  

 

Evaluating QB's on the other hand....   that remains a chore either way.

[mjp28]

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

It's the proliferation of the spread offense, which emphasizes a QB with athleticism over a QB who can stand in the pocket, read defenses and make the proper throw. 

The spread offense is also the reason its more difficult to scout college OLinemen too, specifically in their ability to get in a traditional three-point stance and move a defender off the LOS in the run game.

As a great football player's mother would have said: "THE SPREAD OFFENSE IS THE DEVIL!"

Kind of takes you back to the wishbone or triple option days remember the old Oklahoma teams among others?

Nothing much new in football really except maybe the rules.

[Dutch Oven]

53 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

Kind of takes you back to the wishbone or triple option days remember the old Oklahoma teams among others?

Nothing much new in football really except maybe the rules.

In some ways, yes. Hell, I see some similarity between todays Read/Option offenses and the old wingback offenses of the 1920s/30s.

The football program I was involved with years ago still ran the Wing T offense, which is pretty prehistoric. 

[TexasAg1969]

36 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

In some ways, yes. Hell, I see some similarity between todays Read/Option offenses and the old wingback offenses of the 1920s/30s.

The football program I was involved with years ago still ran the Wing T offense, which is pretty prehistoric. 

Was that B.D. or A.D. (before dinosaurs or after dinosaurs).

[mjp28]

6 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Was that B.D. or A.D. (before dinosaurs or after dinosaurs).

Oh I thought you were going to say Before Disco or After Disco. 

[Tour2ma]

Thread is winding down when misplaced "hate" and "haters" becomes the primary defense. As is typical here it's the claim of the person who attacks a prospects character cast at those who question performance.

20 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Tour said it best, they're ALL possible...  but you don't want to go on that.  Who is more 'probable' is the pick.       

Yup... every team let alone us "amateurs" think they know who the booms and busts will be... or at least have a favorite... and on average at least half are wrong. There's no reason to compromise your probability of success by backing a prospect with a "special cause" in play.

20 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

It's the proliferation of the spread offense, which emphasizes a QB with athleticism over a QB who can stand in the pocket, read defenses and make the proper throw. 

The spread offense is also the reason its more difficult to scout college OLinemen too, specifically in their ability to get in a traditional three-point stance and move a defender off the LOS in the run game.

Agree it's the spread, but slightly different take on why... and it's not my take although I forget who I first heard it from... may have been Dilfer.

Pressure to win in college and early departure of stars for the pros have combined to reduce the time college HC's have to teach and develop QBs, but pure run attacks are less successful (and sexy) than they once were. The solution? Dumb down the offense with the RPO where you set up the QB with a simple, one-defender read a few yards from his nose and off that create single target "options" in the passing game. Then add in facts such as pace of the game which carries the double benefit of replacing run-pounding as a means of wearing down a D and allowing play-clock time for the sideline to call adjustments. The latter of course is another duty that formerly resided with "trained" QBs.

I think it's easy to see that the above changes increase the value of "athletic" QBs. However, when one comes along that has received the training and has shown the aptitude to fill a more traditional QB role, if they do not gravitate to schools featuring more traditional Offenses, then we see programs changing to accommodate the talent.

16 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Kind of takes you back to the wishbone or triple option days remember the old Oklahoma teams among others?

Others including Bill Yeoman's "Veer"... one of the most potent college run-attack offenses ever.

[Dutch Oven]

15 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Was that B.D. or A.D. (before dinosaurs or after dinosaurs).

I think it was A.D. (I'm not THAT old ) but the Wing T was pretty damn successful for Massillon Perry for years under Coach Wakefield. 

It was an interesting offensive system, but a limited one.