Jump to content
hoorta

Saquon Barkley Combine Bound

Recommended Posts

On 2/11/2018 at 11:34 PM, RoyceRolls said:

I’d love for the Giants or Colts to draft Saquon.  If Barkley is one of the 2 picks between browns selections, odds are good that we’ll have Bradley Chubb waiting at #4

Gmen still have nightmares from their last 1st round RB pick and that wasn't a top 5 selection.

Orlando Brown will most likely arrive in NY Blue...     especially with them committing to Eli. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, RoyceRolls said:

In the past 15 years (probably more) there has only been one first round RB on a super bowl winning team. That RB is Marshawn Lynch, and he wasn’t drafted by the team he won a Super Bowl with. 

Transversely, in that time, there have been multiple teams that won a Super Bowl by starting undrafted RBs. Some teams even had a RBBC with multiple undrafted RBs. The saints did it with Pierre Thomas and Mike Bell.  The Steelers won two with undrafted Willie Parker, the Colts won with undrafted Dominic Rhodes, the Eagles won with a pair of undrafted guys; Blount and Clement, and a fifth rounder that they didn’t draft. The giants won two superbowls, once with a 4th rounder (Jacobs) and once with a 7th rounder (Bradshaw).

there are kids in college who have spent their entire lives living in a world where championship winning teams used throw away picks or no picks at all to secure their RB.  Using the best pick in the draft on a position that is far and away the easiest to fill is the kind of move that truck drivers and cashiers make. Football professionals don’t do that, and the ones who spend premium picks on the position are almost always shown up by mid round selections. For every Zeke there’s a David Johnson, for every Fournette there’s a Kamara, for every McCaffery there’s a Kareem Hunt...

The best RB in a decade isn’t worth 1/4 of what the best QB in a 2 year span is.  You can spend the day at Cedar Point and walk past at least 30 guys who could RB for a Super Bowl winning team, how many times have you walked past Tom Brady or Peyton Manning? 

 

While I agree with your point, you are wrong on no 1st rounders have won a Super Bowl. 

2000- Super Bowl XXXIV: Marshall Faulk

2006- Super Bowl XL: Jerome Bettis 

2007- Super Bowl XLI: Joseph Addai 

2010- Super Bowl XLIV: Reggie Bush

2014- Super Bowl XLVIII: Marshawn Lynch ( you mentioned)

So, in this millennium, there has been 5 in 19 years. So about 26%.

And even though I agree with what you are trying to say, you got it wrong. And since 2000, 1st round QB

2006- Super Bowl XL: Big Ben

2007- Super Bowl XLI: Peyton Manning

2008- Super Bowl XLII: Eli Manning

2009- Super Bowl XLIII: Big Ben

2011- Super Bowl XLV: Aaron Rodgers

2012- Super Bowl XLVI: Eli Manning

2013- Super Bowl XLVII: Joe Flacco

2016- Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning

2018- Super Bowl LII: Carson Wentz

So in this millennium, there has been 9 in 19 years, or about 47%.

So yes QB is more important, the most important position, and it is certainly better to get a RB later as opposed to QB, but this millennium more that 50% of Super Bowl winning QB weren't 1st rounders.

I like your premise, but don't put incorrect facts to present your case

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oops, I forgot to say Starting RBs as the source I was using only listed the starters. But the fact that first rounder Addai was outperformed by undrafted Rhodes still works for the argument. Faulk doesn’t count because I said 15 years.  Bettis wasn’t the starter and signifies the changing of the guard. By the time he won a Super Bowl he was just a fat butt figure head who fell down into the end zone sometimes. Averaged about 40 yds/game in the playoffs in 2005. Did pretty well pulling off the type 2 shuffle for a few TDs though. Reggie Bush is a great example of when taking a first round QB goes wrong....At any rate, how many undrafted QBs have won a super bowl? Warner is the only one I can think of. 

Edit: or maybe a better question is how many times does a first round QB back up an undrafted QB?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Duke could move to the slot actually. You might need to give Barkley a breather here and there but nothing like Crowell and Johnson do now. 

You're not going to want to take Barkley out of the game. He's either getting the ball, creating a distraction to help his teammates get the ball or he's helping to protect the Quarterback.

Exactly, which means Crowell is sitting on the bench. Its seemed like the Browns were moving on from Crowell this past season. I thought that he was hurt too, but not really sure..Looks like the Browns will let him test the market and come back with an offer to match. If Dorsey does not resign him its a given that Barkley is the 1 pick and 4 the QB pick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, gumby73 said:

Crow packed his locker, while Hue ran the cops (up the middle of course) to Crows home evacuation..  

Have you heard anything about a new contract?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, boo fagley said:

Exactly, which means Crowell is sitting on the bench. Its seemed like the Browns were moving on from Crowell this past season. I thought that he was hurt too, but not really sure..Looks like the Browns will let him test the market and come back with an offer to match. If Dorsey does not resign him its a given that Barkley is the 1 pick and 4 the QB pick.

Because Crowell is not coming back it's a given that Barkley is the #1 pick?

That's some interesting logic, there. :huh:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, boo fagley said:

Have you heard anything about a new contract?

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2018/2/7/16986826/list-of-the-cleveland-browns-free-agents   Crow starts over with contract with Dorsey. A guy that points at improving talent, Spottrac values Crow about 5.6M/year.(saints M.Ingram $) New eyes of New RB coach & Todd Haley at OC can't hurt talent evaluations. Can't see us now winning a matching deal now? (never do)imo Crow & agent won't see the money they are looking either.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2018/2/7/16986826/list-of-the-cleveland-browns-free-agents   Crow starts over with contract with Dorsey. A guy that points at improving talent, Spottrac values Crow about 5.6M/year.(saints M.Ingram $) New eyes of New RB coach & Todd Haley at OC can't hurt talent evaluations. Can't see us now winning a matching deal now? (never do)imo Crow & agent won't see the money they are looking either.  

There are several RBs in this draft better than the Blind Crow. 2nd round will be just fine for the Browns to get one too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Because Crowell is not coming back it's a given that Barkley is the #1 pick?

That's some interesting logic, there. :huh:

Because the Giants and Colts dont need a QB right now unless he is in later rounds. If NY or INDY went QB, they then have to pay the guy top 10 money while creating a QB controversy that nobody wants.

Barkley # 1, 2nd Giants ,3rd Colts,  Browns QB at # 4. Leaving Barkley exposed is too risky because all you hear is that all Manning and Luck need is talent around them to succeed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gumby73 said:

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2018/2/7/16986826/list-of-the-cleveland-browns-free-agents   Crow starts over with contract with Dorsey. A guy that points at improving talent, Spottrac values Crow about 5.6M/year.(saints M.Ingram $) New eyes of New RB coach & Todd Haley at OC can't hurt talent evaluations. Can't see us now winning a matching deal now? (never do)imo Crow & agent won't see the money they are looking either.  

Crazy that Gordon is only a ERFA.

Seems like hes been around forever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, boo fagley said:

Because the Giants and Colts dont need a QB right now unless he is in later rounds. If NY or INDY went QB, they then have to pay the guy top 10 money while creating a QB controversy that nobody wants.

Barkley # 1, 2nd Giants ,3rd Colts,  Browns QB at # 4. Leaving Barkley exposed is too risky because all you hear is that all Manning and Luck need is talent around them to succeed.

But you aren't factoring in a lot of things my man. One is trades. Both teams could easily trade the picks. And 2nd- especially NY they have an old QB and need to start thinking of the future. No organization thinks about the upcoming year when they draft, but the future. So yes, while Eli will be starter next year, he isn't the future there. And this past season was an abboration for the Giants. They won't be this high again to draft a top QB. 

It's why the Giants got Eli to begin with. They only had a HOF QB playing, but they got Eli for the future. It's why Patriots had Jimmy G. And if Bill had his way, he would still be there. 

I'm certainly not one that thinks Luck is great, but when healthy he has produced pretty good. But that team has A LOT of holes. So trading gives them more assets.

And not to mention that it is a lot easier to find a lot of production from later picks at RB as opposed to QB. And RB dont last nearly as long as QB, and that is taking your boy Brady out. A lot of the top QB's are in 30s and RB are done being elite by 30.

In conclusion, it's not as black and white as Giants and Colts dont "need" a quaterback

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, RoyceRolls said:

Oops, I forgot to say Starting RBs as the source I was using only listed the starters. But the fact that first rounder Addai was outperformed by undrafted Rhodes still works for the argument. Faulk doesn’t count because I said 15 years.  Bettis wasn’t the starter and signifies the changing of the guard. By the time he won a Super Bowl he was just a fat butt figure head who fell down into the end zone sometimes. Averaged about 40 yds/game in the playoffs in 2005. Did pretty well pulling off the type 2 shuffle for a few TDs though. Reggie Bush is a great example of when taking a first round QB goes wrong....At any rate, how many undrafted QBs have won a super bowl? Warner is the only one I can think of. 

Edit: or maybe a better question is how many times does a first round QB back up an undrafted QB?

It's easy to use one stat to prove a point, but you have to use multiple things to get a food view. Just use last 19 years, using ONE stat would certainly tell you that your best odds is with a 6th round QB.

See how that looks? So saying Bush is a good example, well he did win a Super Bowl, and there are MANY examples of how taking a QB in the 1st is wrong.

There is no sure first pick, position, etc.

And the other thing that just doesn't work is saying Addai was outperformed so it works with your argument. There has been many a time a Super Bowl winning QB was outperformed by his counterpart. That had nothing to do with where he was drafted, but how he performed a certain day some, and even more because it's a TEAM game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, boo fagley said:

Crazy that Gordon is only a ERFA.

Seems like hes been around forever.

Caught my eye too.Seems wrong from read. Josh was subliminal draft? not sure where round 2 pick fits? Work. Check later

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

How can any RB list for this draft not have Rashaad Penny on it?  Seriously. 

Because you and I are the only 2 who have actually seen him play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

But you aren't factoring in a lot of things my man. One is trades. Both teams could easily trade the picks. And 2nd- especially NY they have an old QB and need to start thinking of the future. No organization thinks about the upcoming year when they draft, but the future. So yes, while Eli will be starter next year, he isn't the future there. And this past season was an abboration for the Giants. They won't be this high again to draft a top QB. 

It's why the Giants got Eli to begin with. They only had a HOF QB playing, but they got Eli for the future. It's why Patriots had Jimmy G. And if Bill had his way, he would still be there. 

I'm certainly not one that thinks Luck is great, but when healthy he has produced pretty good. But that team has A LOT of holes. So trading gives them more assets.

And not to mention that it is a lot easier to find a lot of production from later picks at RB as opposed to QB. And RB dont last nearly as long as QB, and that is taking your boy Brady out. A lot of the top QB's are in 30s and RB are done being elite by 30.

In conclusion, it's not as black and white as Giants and Colts dont "need" a quaterback

All solid points and thank you for the civil explanation.

Regarding the Giants. They were terrible running the ball last season http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff  NY is a win now franchise and youre right Eli is getting up in years. He just turned 37. Not many years are left. On draft day, Barkley is there at 2 who can help you today or a QB who is not going to play unless Eli goes down. It is very rare that NY is in this position drafting this high. But why would they trade down and how far down?

I think if Barkley is there at 2 the Giants take him and if he is gone they trade down with Denver, or NYJ who need a QB.

Im not a Luck fan either, but a common excuse why he does not succeed is the talent around him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, boo fagley said:

All solid points and thank you for the civil explanation.

Regarding the Giants. They were terrible running the ball last season http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff  NY is a win now franchise and youre right Eli is getting up in years. He just turned 37. Not many years are left. On draft day, Barkley is there at 2 who can help you today or a QB who is not going to play unless Eli goes down. It is very rare that NY is in this position drafting this high. But why would they trade down and how far down?

I think if Barkley is there at 2 the Giants take him and if he is gone they trade down with Denver, or NYJ who need a QB.

Im not a Luck fan either, but a common excuse why he does not succeed is the talent around him.

NY won't trade down, they will take the heir apparent to Eli. They know just like everyone that they can get a good RB later. Maybe a Sony Michel in 2nd

Indy if given the opportunity, will trade to get extra picks to make them better. If I were Indy, the only 2 things I consider are OL to protect Luck, and defense

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

Caught my eye too.Seems wrong from read. Josh was subliminal draft? not sure where round 2 pick fits? Work. Check later

It's because of the time he missed. Even this past season doesn't count as a year by standards

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mark O said:

Because you and I are the only 2 who have actually seen him play.

LOL Apparently so.  But after the Sr Bowl, and the bowl game against Army, how could anyone not be a fan?

They guy had over 2200 yds. I don't care what conference or division it's in. If it was easy, everyone would do it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

It's easy to use one stat to prove a point, but you have to use multiple things to get a food view. Just use last 19 years, using ONE stat would certainly tell you that your best odds is with a 6th round QB.

See how that looks? So saying Bush is a good example, well he did win a Super Bowl, and there are MANY examples of how taking a QB in the 1st is wrong.

There is no sure first pick, position, etc.

And the other thing that just doesn't work is saying Addai was outperformed so it works with your argument. There has been many a time a Super Bowl winning QB was outperformed by his counterpart. That had nothing to do with where he was drafted, but how he performed a certain day some, and even more because it's a TEAM game

Well, the stats are the stats. Undrafted Rhodes had 113 yards and a TD while Addai had 77 yards and no TDs.  They had fairly similar careers as well. Saying that Reggie Bush and his 5 yards won a Super Bowl is like saying Kenny Britt won an AFC title. I understand the points your making about my confirmation bias, but you’re doing the same thing.  The main point is that there are far more examples of teams leaning on undrafted RB production than 1st round RB production, and it isn’t really close. 

the ho-hum 1st round production in contrast with the objectively superior production of the undrafted guys only helps my argument. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

LOL Apparently so.  But after the Sr Bowl, and the bowl game against Army, how could anyone not be a fan?

They guy had over 2200 yds. I don't care what conference or division it's in. If it was easy, everyone would do it. 

I agree and while his overall stats are ridiculously impressive even against the Mountain West (kinda like Josh Allen and his 5,000 yards and 75% completion percentage....er...wait..never mind), I prefer to point out Rashaad Pennys stats against Stanford and Arizona State this year:

9/9 @Arizona State W 30-20 18 216 12.0 95 1 4 38 9.5 33 1
9/16 Stanford W 20-17 32 175 5.5 36 1 5 31 6.2 13

0

Now that's a dude who knows how to bring is game up against a higher level of competition.       That's 50 carries for 391 yards against Pac 12 schools for a guy out of little San Diego State and the Mountain West conference.   Couple of TD's and a receiving TD as well and oh by the way.......he and his team won both games against the bigger schools and the bigger conferences.

I think the kid will be a stud...not on the Marshall Faulk level from SDSU but certainly a really really really good pro for a lot of years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've said it multiple times - but man this year's RB class is so deep. 

Investing a Top 5 pick on a RB is an incredibly questionable move generally, but in this draft it's reckless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not about the position the player plays or the round they were drafted in. It's about the player. 

Saquon Barkley is as clean a prospect as you can find, no red flags at all. No bullring nose piercing, no gold grill, he's not an alcoholic, he doesn't do drugs or juice up.

He's super fast, has amazing agility, explosive acceleration, he has great vison, uncanny balance, soft hands and players and coaches love the kid. 

It's about the player. 

 

I'm not against getting Penny as well. He's worth a later pick. 

Saquon Barkley and Raashad Penny would be a hell of running back room. 

Track meet. 

 

This draft needs to be about offense. All offense. Enough with the defense. Our young defense needs time to gel together and develop, that's all. The offense needs an overhaul, it's way past due. 

Getting Gordon back for a whole year is a tremendous start. Adding a player like Barkley and maybe somebody like James Washington would make life WAAAAAY easier on whomever the Browns take at 4. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RoyceRolls said:

Well, the stats are the stats. Undrafted Rhodes had 113 yards and a TD while Addai had 77 yards and no TDs.  They had fairly similar careers as well. Saying that Reggie Bush and his 5 yards won a Super Bowl is like saying Kenny Britt won an AFC title. I understand the points your making about my confirmation bias, but you’re doing the same thing.  The main point is that there are far more examples of teams leaning on undrafted RB production than 1st round RB production, and it isn’t really close. 

the ho-hum 1st round production in contrast with the objectively superior production of the undrafted guys only helps my argument. 

You are set in your way of thinking. Thing is, I COMPLETELY agree about QB bring way more important. 

But it's like anything else, you can't have it both ways. If a 1st round RB is talked about like that, then so can another position. If a winning RB is outperformed and still won, same can be said about another position.

And I meant nothing about how Reggie Bush performed that day. But you said no 1st round back had won SB, he most certainly did win. Maybe his play wasn't a factor, but he still got that ring. Just as with Addai. I'll bet if you asked either of them if they would rather have had a ring or outperformed their counterpart, they would choose the ring.

Tom Brady just set records in the SB and he didn't win. Maybe it's more about a team and not any position 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, PoeticG said:

It's not about the position the player plays or the round they were drafted in. It's about the player. 

Saquon Barkley is as clean a prospect as you can find, no red flags at all. No bullring nose piercing, no gold grill, he's not an alcoholic, he doesn't do drugs or juice up.

He's super fast, has amazing agility, explosive acceleration, he has great vison, uncanny balance, soft hands and players and coaches love the kid. 

It's about the player. 

 

I'm not against getting Penny as well. He's worth a later pick. 

Saquon Barkley and Raashad Penny would be a hell of running back room. 

Track meet. 

 

This draft needs to be about offense. All offense. Enough with the defense. Our young defense needs time to gel together and develop, that's all. The offense needs an overhaul, it's way past due. 

Getting Gordon back for a whole year is a tremendous start. Adding a player like Barkley and maybe somebody like James Washington would make life WAAAAAY easier on whomever the Browns take at 4. 

 

 

 

2 things again Po. You don't know that he doesn't do drugs to say as clean as prospect. You know he hasn't tested positive. Like I said before, nobody knew Tiger was doing what he was doing until he was caught. I'm not saying he isn't clean, but you are making a lot of statements that aren't set in stone.

Now on to the point others have been trying to point out to you. Maybe I can ask it a better way.

I dont know how you have the QB ranked. I know you have said you liked Mayfield. So say the top 4 QB are ranked as follows. 1. Mayfield 2. Darnold 3. Rosen 4. Allen. And say you have Baker ranked 92, Darnold 88 Rosen 82 Allen 78.

You can have either one of these scenarios.

1. Mayfield 2. Darnold 3. Chubb 4. Barkley

OR

1. Barkley 2. Mayfield 3. Darnold (DEN) 4. Rosen

And remember that for the question Rosen is ranked 82. Some have him way high, but was just showing you.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I've said it multiple times - but man this year's RB class is so deep. 

Investing a Top 5 pick on a RB is an incredibly questionable move generally, but in this draft it's reckless.

And the BROWNS are in a pickers' paradise loaded with draft picks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×