Mel Kiper says

[syd]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

He DID say that it's VERY early in the process.  

The senior bowl could change Mel's draft board.  The Combine.  Free Agency could theoretically take QB right off our draft board.  And even Joe Thomas could put a dent in the board.

BTW, I feel pretty sure that JT will let the Browns know his intentions before FA.

as i said in a different thread I believe JT will finish out his contract Unless his back and knee tell him otherwise

[gumby73]

as most players on this team, Joe likes playing for Hue, Hue respects Joe's career. Hue's contract thru 19,JT thur 18. JT has played with bad knee awhile, bad back, is kinda new, but he's played through that also. Joe's down 10 lbs,but I also say he try's to play to get Hue & team/town off 0 wins..Joe deserves to finish his career on his Terms..This Town can't & won't fault him on that. 

[hoorta]

53 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

as most players on this team, Joe likes playing for Hue, Hue respects Joe's career. Hue's contract thru 19,JT thur 18. JT has played with bad knee awhile, bad back, is kinda new, but he's played through that also. Joe's down 10 lbs,but I also say he try's to play to get Hue & team/town off 0 wins..Joe deserves to finish his career on his Terms..This Town can't & won't fault him on that. 

Just to add, listening to Red Zone tonight, Dieken said Joe's knee is feeling much better. He didn't get beat up for the entire season- we'll see what he decides to do...   

[Suomi]

Mel Kiper blows.  He knows nothing about which team is taking which player, as has been proven by reviewing his past "prognostications".

[mjp28]

It is so much fun doing mock drafts and going back to look at old mock drafts and better yet the old actual draft picks.......all the oooohs and aaaahhhhs and we coulda' hads.

Kind of like if I only played 224 and 7056 I would have hit the lottery tonight!  

How many days until April 26?

[calfoxwc]

10 hours ago, Suomi said:

Mel Kiper blows.  He knows nothing about which team is taking which player, as has been proven by reviewing his past "prognostications".

Everybody gets the mock drafts wrong. All the "experts" do. No "experts" know what what team is taking what player. It's all analysis/guesswork.

[The Gipper]

17 hours ago, runyon27 said:

I have the same concerns you do about Allen, how much of his accuracy issues are him versus the receivers he has and the protection he gets. If his 56% is what it really is, we should pass.

Explain how Allen is not just a Kizer clone.....since for both of them they appear to be big strong athletic guys.....who have trouble hitting the broad side of a barn door...according to some reports about Allen.   And what about the penchant for committing turnovers?  That...worse than his accuracy issues...is the downfall of Kizer.

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Explain how Allen is not just a Kizer clone.....since for both of them they appear to be big strong athletic guys.....who have trouble hitting the broad side of a barn door...according to some reports about Allen.   And what about the penchant for committing turnovers?  That...worse than his accuracy issues...is the downfall of Kizer.

After watching 4 complete games of Allen- that's exactly my opinion Gip, he is a Kizer clone. That Mel would put him #1 on his big board means he's projecting (on a rumor he heard) Dorsey is going to be a Dork-sey, and draft him. Said it before- an inaccurate cannon is worthless in the pros...   

As a counterpoint to Kiper...   

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000907475/article/ask-5-which-qb-do-you-prefer-baker-mayfield-or-josh-allen

I likee Jeremiah's first mock draft much better, and screw Walter Football- he has us totally passing on a QB in the 2018 draft- he's getting blasted out of the water for that level of ignorance.... 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000908233/article/jeremiah-mock-draft-10-browns-jets-fins-redskins-take-qb?campaign=tw-cf-sf179709652-sf179709652&sf179709652=1&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Explain how Allen is not just a Kizer clone.....since for both of them they appear to be big strong athletic guys.....who have trouble hitting the broad side of a barn door...according to some reports about Allen.   And what about the penchant for committing turnovers?  That...worse than his accuracy issues...is the downfall of Kizer.

   Allen played in a pro-style offense, under an excellent coach.

Allen raised the level of competitiveness of his offense, his entire team, really, with his play

Allen plays with a chip on his shoulder, Kizer has sleepy eyes like Weeden.

Allen has never been benched for not getting it.

Allen inspired his entire college, home town, fans, his entire team.

Allen has outstanding leadership/intangibles - his coach loves him.

**********************************************

   Kizer never played in a pro-style offense.

Kizer played with an excellent cast of players around him for the competition they faced.

Kizer was benched because he wasn't getting it.

Kizer had a college coach  who is not an excellent coach.

Kizer didn't inspire his entire team, college or town - he was benched.

Kizer hasn't shown outstanding leadership/intangibles - his coach benched him and criticized him.

**************************************************

https://sports.yahoo.com/10-nfl-draft-questions-teams-soured-qbs-josh-rosen-sam-darnold-josh-allen-033419404.html

1) Who’s No. 1?

There’s no clear answer here. Darnold threw 13 interceptions, fumbled the ball 11 times and his completion percentage dipped by 4.1 percent year over year. Allen wilted against decent competition, throwing three interceptions and no touchdowns against Iowa and Oregon. Rosen had 26 touchdown passes, but UCLA sputtered to a 6-7 record on the season. (Rosen missed the blowout loss at Utah with a concussion). Nobody has distanced themselves from one another.

“I can see this thing playing out where any of the top three guys assert themselves as No. 1 at the NFL [scouting] combine,” said an area scout. “At the end of the season, Darnold and Rosen will have a chance to do it on a big stage. But if Allen was No. 1 [in April], I wouldn’t be shocked. They all have things they need to work on.”

 

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

   Allen played in a pro-style offense, under an excellent coach.

Allen raised the level of competitiveness of his offense, his entire team, really, with his play

Allen plays with a chip on his shoulder, Kizer has sleepy eyes like Weeden.

Allen has never been benched for not getting it.

Allen inspired his entire college, home town, fans, his entire team.

Allen has outstanding leadership/intangibles - his coach loves him.

**********************************************

   Kizer never played in a pro-style offense.

Kizer played with an excellent cast of players around him for the competition they faced.

Kizer was benched because he wasn't getting it.

Kizer had a college coach  who is not an excellent coach. Kizer's coach also said he wasn't ready for the NFL and Sashi was too dumb to listen. 

Kizer didn't inspire his entire team, college or town - he was benched.

Kizer hasn't shown outstanding leadership/intangibles - his coach benched him and criticized him.

**************************************************

https://sports.yahoo.com/10-nfl-draft-questions-teams-soured-qbs-josh-rosen-sam-darnold-josh-allen-033419404.html

1) Who’s No. 1?

There’s no clear answer here. Darnold threw 13 interceptions, fumbled the ball 11 times and his completion percentage dipped by 4.1 percent year over year. Allen wilted against decent competition, throwing three interceptions and no touchdowns against Iowa and Oregon. Rosen had 26 touchdown passes, but UCLA sputtered to a 6-7 record on the season. (Rosen missed the blowout loss at Utah with a concussion). Nobody has distanced themselves from one another.

“I can see this thing playing out where any of the top three guys assert themselves as No. 1 at the NFL [scouting] combine,” said an area scout. “At the end of the season, Darnold and Rosen will have a chance to do it on a big stage. But if Allen was No. 1 [in April], I wouldn’t be shocked. They all have things they need to work on.”

 

All the above stuff on Allen is nice Cal- but none of it matters if. 

I'm not ruling out Allen as a good qb- but again, you conveniently ignore the one glaring similarity Allen and Kizer share- they're inaccurate. Josh isn't in the same league in the accuracy department as that other Josh, Darnold, or Mayfield. Especially Baker- he's crazy accurate. 

PS other than playing in a pro style offense the exact same could be said about Mayfield- and he played a lot higher competition than Mountain West. Except you're so hung up on character issues, you can't see the forest because of the trees. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

   Allen played in a pro-style offense, under an excellent coach.

Allen raised the level of competitiveness of his offense, his entire team, really, with his play

Allen plays with a chip on his shoulder, Kizer has sleepy eyes like Weeden.

Allen has never been benched for not getting it.

Allen inspired his entire college, home town, fans, his entire team.

Allen has outstanding leadership/intangibles - his coach loves him.

**********************************************

   Kizer never played in a pro-style offense.

Kizer played with an excellent cast of players around him for the competition they faced.

Kizer was benched because he wasn't getting it.

Kizer had a college coach  who is not an excellent coach.

Kizer didn't inspire his entire team, college or town - he was benched.

Kizer hasn't shown outstanding leadership/intangibles - his coach benched him and criticized him.

**************************************************

https://sports.yahoo.com/10-nfl-draft-questions-teams-soured-qbs-josh-rosen-sam-darnold-josh-allen-033419404.html

1) Who’s No. 1?

There’s no clear answer here. Darnold threw 13 interceptions, fumbled the ball 11 times and his completion percentage dipped by 4.1 percent year over year. Allen wilted against decent competition, throwing three interceptions and no touchdowns against Iowa and Oregon. Rosen had 26 touchdown passes, but UCLA sputtered to a 6-7 record on the season. (Rosen missed the blowout loss at Utah with a concussion). Nobody has distanced themselves from one another.

“I can see this thing playing out where any of the top three guys assert themselves as No. 1 at the NFL [scouting] combine,” said an area scout. “At the end of the season, Darnold and Rosen will have a chance to do it on a big stage. But if Allen was No. 1 [in April], I wouldn’t be shocked. They all have things they need to work on.”

 

But, through all this...the allegation that he cannot hit the broad side of a barn door is not refuted.

[syd]

17 hours ago, Suomi said:

Mel Kiper blows.  He knows nothing about which team is taking which player, as has been proven by reviewing his past "prognostications".

you do understand all these mocks they put are for pure entertainment don't you ?

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, The Gipper said:

But, through all this...the allegation that he cannot hit the broad side of a barn door is not refuted.

of course it isn't - until you watch his games, any highlight video. I mean "cannot hit the ..." and then he does it  all over the highlight films. You need "el kabong" to knock some sense in to ya? Of course he can.

     The allegation is simply "rah rah for the top rated brah" ya? That is as bs as showing 4 ints in a playoff game by Peyton Manning, and saying "see? he can't hit the broadside of a barn"

    If all you needed was accuracy, here's your qb:

"Analysis

Strengths

XXX  has an NFL-quality frame that allows him to look over the offensive line and deliver his throws without a hitch. His quick release is his strongest asset, as he consistently fires the ball with a compact throwing motion and strong delivery. The ball zips off his arm, and he has the ability to fit it in any tight space. He is "all of the above" in terms of being a mature, poised leader. He is an accurate passer on throws short and long, and he has that gunslinger mentality to go for the deep ball when it's an option. He understands route progressions and throwing the ball to allow his receiver to make a play."

    

[calfoxwc]

guess who that qb was?

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/brandon-weeden?id=2532970

4 hours ago, hoorta said:

PS other than playing in a pro style offense the exact same could be said about Mayfield- and he played a lot higher competition than Mountain West. Except you're so hung up on character issues, you can't see the forest because of the trees. 

nah. so there ya go. Brandon Weedon was your superstar accurate passer with awesome girly stats. congrats, hoopla.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/8/2/15986274/lincoln-riley-oklahoma-sooners-offense

[tiamat63]

I'm sure the use of the words "highlight films" is lost on you.  

 

I question Allen's ball placement and it was one of the first things that stood out when watching the Utah State game. 

[calfoxwc]

13 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I'm sure the use of the words "highlight films" is lost on you.  

 

I question Allen's ball placement and it was one of the first things that stood out when watching the Utah State game. 

and as usual, you are wrong. Perhaps the definition of "can't" is lost on you.

can't

kant/

contraction

modal verb: can't

1. cannot.

Therefore, if I throw a football at a barn from 30 yards away, and I hit it once out of ten times, it is inaccurate to say I cannot hit the barn. What would be accurate, is to say I'm not able to hit it all the time. If a qb throws even one perfectly thrown pass, he CAN hit the broadside of a barn, he just may not do it often.

Therefore, your curt retort misses the point. Are you unable to hit the broadside of a point? Sure you can - you just missed this time.

[gumby73]

42 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

 

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/8/2/15986274/lincoln-riley-oklahoma-sooners-offense

sorry cal,Tia won't let me get excited about Riley coaching the Browns..Luckily we already failed with Chip Kelly before Chip did at Philly..good read though..gonna miss Mayfield in Lincoln's offense

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

guess who that qb was?

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/brandon-weeden?id=2532970

nah. so there ya go. Brandon Weedon was your superstar accurate passer with awesome girly stats. congrats, hoopla.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/8/2/15986274/lincoln-riley-oklahoma-sooners-offense

Go ahead Cal- how long did it take you to find the outlier? Inaccurate in college= 9\10 times inaccurate in the pros. 

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

of course it isn't - until you watch his games, any highlight video. I mean "cannot hit the ..." and then he does it  all over the highlight films. You need "el kabong" to knock some sense in to ya? Of course he can.

     The allegation is simply "rah rah for the top rated brah" ya? That is as bs as showing 4 ints in a playoff game by Peyton Manning, and saying "see? he can't hit the broadside of a barn"

    If all you needed was accuracy, here's your qb:

"Analysis

Strengths

XXX  has an NFL-quality frame that allows him to look over the offensive line and deliver his throws without a hitch. His quick release is his strongest asset, as he consistently fires the ball with a compact throwing motion and strong delivery. The ball zips off his arm, and he has the ability to fit it in any tight space. He is "all of the above" in terms of being a mature, poised leader. He is an accurate passer on throws short and long, and he has that gunslinger mentality to go for the deep ball when it's an option. He understands route progressions and throwing the ball to allow his receiver to make a play."

    

An accurate passer with a 56% completion rate in college-compared to Mayfield's 70%+ You quoting Wee-Done, get the f outta here.  so his receivers were dropping every other pass? Don't think so. I watched his games Cal, he's inaccurate as hell (you have as much rose colored glasses on on this guy as Po does on Barkley)- don't bring up Manning or anyone else. Highlight films mean crap, as tia just pointed out. Kizer's highlights were freaking spectacular too... $hit, you want me to drag up Kizer's 2017 "highlight" reel from 2017 with the Browns? You'd swear to God, he's the second coming of Brett Favre. Screw highlights without a fair and balanced look at the lowlights.... I just might do that for kicks and giggles...  . 

Finally- quit arguing with me about the merits of your Dreamboat, Mother Hen. I've already told you (around 10X) I have a big pro Wyoming bias. If I honestly thought Allen was all that hot, I'd share your feelings. I don't and he's not. 

[runyon27]

8 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Explain how Allen is not just a Kizer clone.....since for both of them they appear to be big strong athletic guys.....who have trouble hitting the broad side of a barn door...according to some reports about Allen.   And what about the penchant for committing turnovers?  That...worse than his accuracy issues...is the downfall of Kizer.

I haven't seen much of Allen so if he isn't accurate then pass on him, we already have plenty of QBs onthe roster with accuracy issues.

[tiamat63]

So now we're taking metaphors and applying it as literal to support draft position.  Welp, blocked on one side of the board - let's make it an even 2.  

[calfoxwc]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

Finally- quit arguing with me about the merits of your Dreamboat, Mother Hen. I've already told you (around 10X) I have a big pro Wyoming bias. If I honestly thought Allen was all that hot, I'd share your feelings. I don't and he's not. 

then STFU about me and Allen, etc etc and stop being stan's little tool. I'm just saying there's more to being a qb in the pros than stats and ratings. There really isn't anything else to say. I see things differently, no big deal. I am just answering your crap. Therefore, have a nice freaking day, hoopla.

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

then STFU about me and Allen, etc etc and stop being stan's little tool. I'm just saying there's more to being a qb in the pros than stats and ratings. There really isn't anything else to say. I see things differently, no big deal. I am just answering your crap. Therefore, have a nice freaking day, hoopla.

 So now your're into Zen QB ratings?  My Zen says Allen (almost certainly) will bust- shove that one up your a$$. Mel says Allen #1, Jeremiah says Darnold #1. You are SO far into pumping anything supporting your opinion, and SO far dismissive of opposing POVs (and there are many) it's actually pretty funny. 

When you have to result to name calling- You lost Cal-snot- have a nice day. FWIW, Z is thinking of kicking your as$ off of here for crap like this, and (whining on) other forums. You have no comeback on lack of accuracy. Get back to me on when you do. One game in the Potato Bowl, holy $hit, that's almost the Championship in the NFL. There's YOUR problem- defending this guy at all costs, even when he has obvious flaws in his game (like over on the poly board, that I don't often venture over to) - bigger than talking head Kiper thinks so. 

FWIW, I'm not a Stan tool- but I sure as hell can be OBJECTIVE about what my eyes are telling me. Man, go over to nut hugger Walter Football and debate with Walt why Barkley #1 over all is dumber than hell.  

[Dutch Oven]

If there is a good a video of Josh Allen blasting Trump will drop any day now and calfox's head will explode.

[jiggins7919]

I will admit that I haven't scouted Allen very much, but just a quick review of YouTube videos doesn't do much to get me excited about drafting him, let alone with the first freaking pick. How many of Allen's throws were him leaving a pocket (sometimes prematurely btw), sprinting to his right, and firing a ball right before he came to the sideline? Seemed like it happened a lot to me. Like I said earlier, I haven't really seen any "film" on the guy, and YouTube videos certainly aren't a great way to scout a player, but I was disturbed by the lack of shown "NFL passes". I didn't see much scanning the field, working progressions, hitting people in stride, or whatever else I look for. 

Is he big? Yep. Does he have a plus-plus arm? Sure. Did he lose some talent on offense which probably hindered his numbers? Probably. But it's not like he was playing in the SEC, right? His completion percentage was around 56%, which by most standards is unacceptable in the NFL. What I don't know is how much of that number was his fault. Was he missing open receivers consistently, or were his players so bad they couldn't get open? I'd like to see a breakdown of Allen and really see why his numbers were so modest. 13 touchdown passes? Uhhhhh. 

This is Mel's first mock, right? So obviously things are going to dramatically change over the next few months, and there's not much of a reason to get worked up one way or another, but it is fun to talk about. After watching Kizer struggle this year, I think accuracy is going to be one of my biggest attributes I'm looking for in a prospect. Obviously not the only thing because Kessler could really spin the short and short-intermediate stuff with solid accuracy, and he certainly couldn't cut it. We need a guy with accuracy AND the physical ability/talent required to play the position. In that measurement, I'd say Rosen is #1 with Darnold and Mayfield trailing him. Mayfield especially completed a very high percentage of passes, but certainly some of that reflects from the scheme he played in. Darnold isn't a pretty thrower of the football, but it certainly gets there and he's a much better athlete than I thought before the 2017 season. His mechanics are "Ehhh" and his decision making is scary, but I think the fumbles can be cleaned up. 

Back to Allen. At this point, I want absolutely nothing to do with him. And can analysts PLEASE stop comparing him to Ben Roethlisberger just because they're both a similar size? Enough already. Big Ben completed almost 70% of his passes in 2003, with FORTY combined touchdowns (37 passing, 3 rushing). As we know, Allen had 13 touchdown passes, and probably another handful of rushing Tds. I don't know much about the talent each one played with and against, but I'd assume it'd be somewhat comparable. Unless I'm proven otherwise at the combine, senior bowl (is Allen even eligible?), and at pro day, right now I'm not drafting a QB at #1 who threw for freaking 13 TD passes...not gonna happen. I mean, how many did he miss? Were people open? Was his coach just terrible at concepts? Could Allen simply not scan the field and find someone, or did he have a terrible OL? These are things I know nothing about, and I totally admit it. 

The last guy I remember having tremendous physical abilities that made analysts and coaches salivate, it didn't turn out well. I'm of course talking about JaMarcus Russell. Now obviously Russell had other demons he fought against, and was known to be somewhat "lazy" and uninspired, but he's an example of a guy who can throw it a mile and has a large build. By all accounts Allen is the opposite of Russell when it comes to personality and dedication, but the physical comparison still exists. We don't need a guy who can throw it a mile. We need the guy who can throw it a quarter mile to the correct person. 

[calfoxwc]

I just have been explaining the flip side. Cranky hoorta LOL would draft ryan leaf. I don't want a ryan leaf. Allen threw it to the right person a heck of a lot. Just not as much to have a great completion percentage. I get it - again, threats from hoopla not influencing me to draft a very accurate (unless he has to run for his life) rosen who many, many consider to be a first class jackwagon. Sure, he's tried to hide that his last year - he's surely been told that Claussen dropped because of it, etc etc etc.

      Being a pro qb required leadership, toughness, a lot of intangibles also - and that is where rosen is lacking. If I had to pick a qb for my pro team, and he was going to start from day one, it wouldn't be allen or kizer or rosen...none of em. The intangibles Wentz had, I wasn't alone in arguing that he was the real deal. I see a lot of the same in Allen. There isn't anything left to say about the qb draft that makes much sense.

    I really kept arguing vs drafting jm. He had great stats, I don't care. Character matters.

So, Rosen fans, have a nice day !

[Westside Steve]

I don't think one has to be a genius to figure out the top 10, 20, 30, 40 or more of the better players coming out in the draft. Woody, I think if SI or CBS decided to hire us to do a Draft preview whatever we slapped together would be no more or less valid than the guys getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it. As it is there are at least 4 clumps of draft experts predicting the Cleveland Browns among four different players. 

Pretty much the information is there. Like doing a column on the weather just look at the National Weather Service change it around a tiny fraction so it looks like your own numbers and you should be as close as anybody.

WSS

[Tour2ma]

 

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

Woody, I think if SI or CBS decided to hire us to do a Draft preview whatever we slapped together would be no more or less valid than the guys getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it.

Nah... it'd be less... way less... valid because few here have watched tape on any let alone 30 or players. And when it comes to "tape", highlight reels don't count.

[Westside Steve]

6 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

 

Nah... it'd be less... way less... valid because few here have watched tape on any let alone 30 or players. And when it comes to "tape", highlight reels don't count.

Sure... I'm assuming that every one of the professionals that spends all this time studying tape or statistics or Dianetics or whatever would then all be on the same page and not split among Darnold Rosen Berkeley and Allen.

WSS

[Tour2ma]

16 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

I'm assuming that every one of the professionals that spends all this time studying tape or statistics or Dianetics or whatever would then all be on the same page and not split among Darnold Rosen Berkeley and Allen.

Who is "Berkekey"?

Well, except in a vacuum that would be a silly assumption. But in such context as competition level, team quality, off-field, etc. variation is going to occur.

[hoorta]

33 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

 

Nah... it'd be less... way less... valid because few here have watched tape on any let alone 30 or players. And when it comes to "tape", highlight reels don't count.

Does watching 4-5 complete games of Allen count Tour? I know that pales in comparison to the pro college scouts that will break down every pass Josh threw, and have all 22 tape. Yup, Allen's highlight reel is mighty impressive, but spend equal time on the lowlights, you tend to get a different opinion.