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Tabor On The Move

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obviously he knew a lot. The problem is - some of his players played undisciplined football.

The stupid mistakes again and again...... either some of these players are THAT stupid ...

or they are just po'd and want to screw up to get off special teams.

or something. I don't get it - Tabor didn't fix it, so....

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14 minutes ago, lodilobo said:

Ah yes....the classic Hue Jackson argument. No talent to win more than 1 out of 31.  We were rated 27TH in special teams by Football Outsiders...26TH last year. Yes...you can always find some statistics to support any side of an argument. 

And I've clearly noted that in my first comment that his ranks were lower the last two years. I said that out loud, do you just not care to read?

The fundamental difference you're not choosing (or understanding more likely) to make is that Tabor has extremely limited and likely no decision on the roster compared to Hue. Tabor is stuck with who he gets from the FO and HC, and still managed to not be dead last despite a talent pool of winning 1 game in two seasons. In fact, he's been a rabbit out of his hat for years in terms of maximizing talent on below average to bad teams. But again, Shmuck that guy am I right?

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9 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

 Imagine trying to coach the largely back-ups of an 0-16 team-do you think you'd have an elite squad?

Tabor is a respected coach because he's good at what he does.

Tabor losing his ST Captain Tank Cardner before season did not help a young crew,nor Tabor..Next leader was Dominique Alexander. He went down too early in season. Tabor was youth scrub hunting than..imo Chris Tabor has survived 2 or 3 coaching changes here ..Enter Dorsey, now viewing Browns practice & game tapes  & Tabor has been around long enough & see's the righting on the wall..Not sure Hue would even back Tabor at this point?  

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14 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

And I've clearly noted that in my first comment that his ranks were lower the last two years. I said that out loud, do you just not care to read?

The fundamental difference you're not choosing (or understanding more likely) to make is that Tabor has extremely limited and likely no decision on the roster compared to Hue. Tabor is stuck with who he gets from the FO and HC, and still managed to not be dead last despite a talent pool of winning 1 game in two seasons. In fact, he's been a rabbit out of his hat for years in terms of maximizing talent on below average to bad teams. But again, Shmuck that guy am I right?

Sorry...just because you noted and included your disclaimer with your opinion, doesn't mean crap to me. The bottom line is results. I don't care if Tabor had his special teams firmly in the 16th or 17th best, briefly, several years ago.  You can't cut all the players just because the coaches are not doing their jobs. I'm sure Tabor had freedom to make the decisions on who to play, and where to play them. The special teams have been pitiful in every phase. Don't be concerned about what I understand. I understand enough to see other special teams doing more with less. Yes....maybe we can have a parade for him for not being dead last in the rankings. For me, 26th is bad enough.

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On 1/11/2018 at 4:51 PM, jrb12711 said:

And I've clearly noted that in my first comment that his ranks were lower the last two years. I said that out loud, do you just not care to read?

The fundamental difference you're not choosing (or understanding more likely) to make is that Tabor has extremely limited and likely no decision on the roster compared to Hue. Tabor is stuck with who he gets from the FO and HC, and still managed to not be dead last despite a talent pool of winning 1 game in two seasons. In fact, he's been a rabbit out of his hat for years in terms of maximizing talent on below average to bad teams. But again, Shmuck that guy am I right?

Somewhat right but it sure seems like a long time since our STs were respected around the league.   Hear me out.  We've had other losing teams where 3 STs players made the Pro Bowl like Dawson, Cribbs and Pontbriand.  It wasn't uncommon to see 2 guys from this unit make the Pro Bowl before we added the male cheerleader to the staff way too many moons ago. 

When you get a punt blocked for a TD up the middle in the opening week in a game we only lost by 3 points to Pitt - it's an assignment breakdown.  BTW, the guy who blocked and scored was a backup LBer that never sees the field.  Someone else tried an onside kick because they saw on film the entire front line of our KO return team was turning their backs/heads to the ball in retreat.  Lucky for us 1 guy was slightly offsides; but the sloppy lack of discipline and shortcuts taken by this unit goes/stays on film.    How many times have the Ratbirds blocked important kicks on us over the years.  A couple years ago they blocked what would have been a go ahead kick and returned it for a TD.   Another year they blocked an extra point in a close game we lost.  Speaking of closes games lost, the second close game Pitt beat us in this year while they rested their QB, elite WR and elite RB - the youngest guy on their team returned a KO all the way.  GB also had 65 yard punt return that REALLY shortened the field for their backup QB to lead them to the go ahead TD without much time on the clock.

Then there's also been recent seasons where we always had guys out of position or taking shortcuts on the return unit (Canton Mike remembered well) often pinning us half the distance to the goal line. Often the same culprits without consequences, which was why they continued to repeat the penalties.

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On 1/10/2018 at 10:18 PM, hoorta said:

Don't let the door hit ya in the a$$ on the way out....    Special teams were anything but in 2017. 

Or the last 8 years...

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32 minutes ago, nickers said:

Or the last 8 years...

Kindly read my comments, because again this is objectively false.

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

Somewhat right but it sure seems like a long time since our STs were respected around the league.   Hear me out.  We've had other losing teams where 3 STs players made the Pro Bowl like Dawson, Cribbs and Pontbriand.  It wasn't uncommon to see 2 guys from this unit make the Pro Bowl before we added the male cheerleader to the staff way too many moons ago. 

When you get a punt blocked for a TD up the middle in the opening week in a game we only lost by 3 points to Pitt - it's an assignment breakdown.  BTW, the guy who blocked and scored was a backup LBer that never sees the field.  Someone else tried an onside kick because they saw on film the entire front line of our KO return team was turning their backs/heads to the ball in retreat.  Lucky for us 1 guy was slightly offsides; but the sloppy lack of discipline and shortcuts taken by this unit goes/stays on film.    How many times have the Ratbirds blocked important kicks on us over the years.  A couple years ago they blocked what would have been a go ahead kick and returned it for a TD.   Another year they blocked an extra point in a close game we lost.  Speaking of closes games lost, the second close game Pitt beat us in this year while they rested their QB, elite WR and elite RB - the youngest guy on their team returned a KO all the way.  GB also had 65 yard punt return that REALLY shortened the field for their backup QB to lead them to the go ahead TD without much time on the clock.

Then there's also been recent seasons where we always had guys out of position or taking shortcuts on the return unit (Canton Mike remembered well) often pinning us half the distance to the goal line. Often the same culprits without consequences, which was why they continued repeated to repeat the penalties.

Sure, I'll meet you in the middle on some of that stuff. My point here is that Tabor has demonstrated that even with below average talent he could muster a ST unit in the top half of the league or better. It's critically important to realize as well that Tabor is going to have extremely minimal say on roster decisions, so he's stuck with the guys he has. My point here is that while ST ranks have been down, so has the franchise.

Some will fall on the coaches, I'm not going to sit there and say it doesn't. But I'm also going to have faith in a coach who has proven results on below average teams that a few "down" years will accompany managing a unit of backups for two seasons combining in one win.

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7 minutes ago, jrb12711 said:

Kindly read my comments, because again this is objectively false.

Sure, I'll meet you in the middle on some of that stuff. My point here is that Tabor has demonstrated that even with below average talent he could muster a ST unit in the top half of the league or better. It's critically important to realize as well that Tabor is going to have extremely minimal say on roster decisions, so he's stuck with the guys he has. My point here is that while ST ranks have been down, so has the franchise.

Some will fall on the coaches, I'm not going to sit there and say it doesn't. But I'm also going to have faith in a coach who has proven results on below average teams that a few "down" years will accompany managing a unit of backups for two seasons combining in one win.

You are unobjectively wrong!! There!.. I win! :P

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5 hours ago, Flugel said:

Somewhat right but it sure seems like a long time since our STs were respected around the league.   Hear me out.  We've had other losing teams where 3 STs players made the Pro Bowl like Dawson, Cribbs and Pontbriand.  It wasn't uncommon to see 2 guys from this unit make the Pro Bowl before we added the male cheerleader to the staff way too many moons ago. 

When you get a punt blocked for a TD up the middle in the opening week in a game we only lost by 3 points to Pitt - it's an assignment breakdown.  BTW, the guy who blocked and scored was a backup LBer that never sees the field.  Someone else tried an onside kick because they saw on film the entire front line of our KO return team was turning their backs/heads to the ball in retreat.  Lucky for us 1 guy was slightly offsides; but the sloppy lack of discipline and shortcuts taken by this unit goes/stays on film.    How many times have the Ratbirds blocked important kicks on us over the years.  A couple years ago they blocked what would have been a go ahead kick and returned it for a TD.   Another year they blocked an extra point in a close game we lost.  Speaking of closes games lost, the second close game Pitt beat us in this year while they rested their QB, elite WR and elite RB - the youngest guy on their team returned a KO all the way.  GB also had 65 yard punt return that REALLY shortened the field for their backup QB to lead them to the go ahead TD without much time on the clock.

Then there's also been recent seasons where we always had guys out of position or taking shortcuts on the return unit (Canton Mike remembered well) often pinning us half the distance to the goal line. Often the same culprits without consequences, which was why they continued repeated to repeat the penalties.

In summation:  Our Special teams have sucked swamp water for quite a while now.

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There's a reason Tabor survived 3 HC changes during his tenure in CLE since he was hired by Patsy IIRC... he's been considered one of the better ST Coaches in the league in his time here.

jrb nailed it.

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22 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

Sure, I'll meet you in the middle on some of that stuff. My point here is that Tabor has demonstrated that even with below average talent he could muster a ST unit in the top half of the league or better. It's critically important to realize as well that Tabor is going to have extremely minimal say on roster decisions, so he's stuck with the guys he has. My point here is that while ST ranks have been down, so has the franchise.

Some will fall on the coaches, I'm not going to sit there and say it doesn't. But I'm also going to have faith in a coach who has proven results on below average teams that a few "down" years will accompany managing a unit of backups for two seasons combining in one win.

Did you say this about talent back in 2009 after our 2008 draft didn't begin until round 3 (netting only 1 keeper - Rubin) while Savage traded away all but 4 picks scheduled for the 2009 draft?    That said, our STs units in 2009 and 2010 were much better respected and higher ranked than this in spite of losing our well paid FA punter to IR.  Wasn't it fun to watch a return unit that at least posed the threat of scoring a TD?  And how often did we have to worry about our return team getting flagged back then?

Not for nothing, the worst thing we can do to all these QBs landing on the t-shirt is to have our return units repeatedly flagged for holding or blocking in the back. Impact?  Instead of starting a drive somewhere near our own 20, we start somewhere near the 10. And, when it's the same guys being lazy, out-of-position and taking shortcuts - TABOR decides who plays or sits on his unit.   The fanny pats and rah rahs were falling on deaf ears.

As for surviving all of these regime changes under the Haslam criteria, YES Tabor was Haslam's lone example of continuity all the way up to retaining his HC with a 1-31 record. If he was the only continuity - shouldn't this 3rd of the game been the portion that improved?  And when we're getting first dibs off the waiver wire and/or landing experienced NFL ST players like Coates - there's been some opportunities for Tabor that just fell through the cracks. 

While you excuse Tabor for not having any say in personnel decisions - we drafted the Lou Groza Award Winner for being college football's best place kicker in 2016 and being perfect on all FGs over 50 yards.  Hard guy to coach?  We also signed Colquitt in the last 2 years for 5.7 million $ after we spent all kinds of cake on FA punter Andy Lee before that. In the last 2 years we drafted 2 different guys that excelled as return specialists in college football (Peppers and Coleman). Peppers looked like he regressed significantly at fielding punts.  Before that, we had Travis Benjamin. And if Benjamin got hurt, instead of looking to a speedy guy like Taylor Gabriel - Tabor kept using Poyer.  Suffice it to say, it's been a while since we looked forward to watching our return unit take the field. Speaking of which, a previous ST Coordinator once had to find a replacement for Northcutt in the return game. The poor ST Coordinator had to look to an undrafted Josh Cribbs who never returned punts or kickoffs in college.  And can you believe Cribbs not only replaced Northcutt but he UPGRADED him?  That coach could have just concluded "I don't have any talent to work with"; but he preferred the "no guts no glory" approach. It takes balls to win in this league - not maxi pads...

If I hadn't seen better results from previous ST Coordinators on some of our other losing teams this side of 1999, I might have been more inclined to consider more of your points. Again, our return unit used to be a scoring opportunity under previous ST Coordinators on losing teams this side of 99.  Have we returned a punt or a KO for a TD in the last 2 years?  I don't remember any other 2 year droughts in this area.

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#Browns interview Brock Olivo for special teams coordinator vacancy

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16 hours ago, darren15 said:

#Browns interview Brock Olivo for special teams coordinator vacancy

fits the Dorsey connection for hidden future head coaching position.. but Oh holy craps? Pass..  https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2018/1/13/16889048/browns-interview-brock-olivo-for-special-teams-coordinator-vacancy   so bad Elway keeps him in division..2 strikes 

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On 1/11/2018 at 9:02 AM, jrb12711 said:

That's demonstrably false. In fact, before the 2016 season our ST units were never ranked below 15th, and even finished 2nd in 2012.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamst2016

He had a rough past few years in terms of rank, but our team has also been pathetic. Imagine trying to coach the largely back-ups of an 0-16 team-do you think you'd have an elite squad?

Tabor is a respected coach because he's good at what he does.

Damn dropping truth on these fools. Nice one. 

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On 1/13/2018 at 8:06 AM, Flugel said:

Did you say this about talent back in 2009 after our 2008 draft didn't begin until round 3 (netting only 1 keeper - Rubin) while Savage traded away all but 4 picks scheduled for the 2009 draft?    That said, our STs units in 2009 and 2010 were much better respected and higher ranked than this in spite of losing our well paid FA punter to IR.  Wasn't it fun to watch a return unit that at least posed the threat of scoring a TD?  And how often did we have to worry about our return team getting flagged back then?

Not for nothing, the worst thing we can do to all these QBs landing on the t-shirt is to have our return units repeatedly flagged for holding or blocking in the back. Impact?  Instead of starting a drive somewhere near our own 20, we start somewhere near the 10. And, when it's the same guys being lazy, out-of-position and taking shortcuts - TABOR decides who plays or sits on his unit.   The fanny pats and rah rahs were falling on deaf ears.

As for surviving all of these regime changes under the Haslam criteria, YES Tabor was Haslam's lone example of continuity all the way up to retaining his HC with a 1-31 record. If he was the only continuity - shouldn't this 3rd of the game been the portion that improved?  And when we're getting first dibs off the waiver wire and/or landing experienced NFL ST players like Coates - there's been some opportunities for Tabor that just fell through the cracks. 

While you excuse Tabor for not having any say in personnel decisions - we drafted the Lou Groza Award Winner for being college football's best place kicker in 2016 and being perfect on all FGs over 50 yards.  Hard guy to coach?  We also signed Colquitt in the last 2 years for 5.7 million $ after we spent all kinds of cake on FA punter Andy Lee before that. In the last 2 years we drafted 2 different guys that excelled as return specialists in college football (Peppers and Coleman). Peppers looked like he regressed significantly at fielding punts.  Before that, we had Travis Benjamin. And if Benjamin got hurt, instead of looking to a speedy guy like Taylor Gabriel - Tabor kept using Poyer.  Suffice it to say, it's been a while since we looked forward to watching our return unit take the field. Speaking of which, a previous ST Coordinator once had to find a replacement for Northcutt in the return game. The poor ST Coordinator had to look to an undrafted Josh Cribbs who never returned punts or kickoffs in college.  And can you believe Cribbs not only replaced Northcutt but he UPGRADED him?  That coach could have just concluded "I don't have any talent to work with"; but he preferred the "no guts no glory" approach. It takes balls to win in this league - not maxi pads...

If I hadn't seen better results from previous ST Coordinators on some of our other losing teams this side of 1999, I might have been more inclined to consider more of your points. Again, our return unit used to be a scoring opportunity under previous ST Coordinators on losing teams this side of 99.  Have we returned a punt or a KO for a TD in the last 2 years?  I don't remember any other 2 year droughts in this area.

...the problem here is that we're talking in circles. You can always draw to *insert play here* and say it was a bad decision, and hell it probably was. You can state a coach can have no guts no glory but I'm just amazed you can overlook the absolute void of talent on the team the past few years. The part I bolded is where you're still missing the point. You directly state Tabor "fell through the cracks" on ST players but I repeat, he has no, or at best a tiny amount, of decision making. What exactly do you want him to do then? Do you seriously want him to make Sammy God damn Coates into some ST superstar? Come on.

In the years you're mentioning with Grabriel I've already noted with facts and data he was above average in terms of ST ranks, despite having below average talent. The last two years have we returned a kick? Dude, have you been watching the Browns? You expect a team that won ONE game in two years to produce on special teams, a unit comprised of back-ups on this very team?

If you're going to ignore the facts, that's fine. But Tabor is a good coach and there's a reason he got scooped up by a more competent organization than the Browns.

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247sports.com now reporting as "Hired".. Amos seems to have a solid college background starting with the Bear at Bama..NFL..Steelers & Zona..27 years in the coaching business & played the game..no attachments to Hue's coaching twig..(tree,bush,shrub,chi-a pet;))  

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12 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

no attachments to Hue's coaching twig..

lol

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