Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
The Gipper

Why not Minkah at #1

Recommended Posts

Derwin vs Minkah?

they are both very, very similar.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2018-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-minkah-fitzpatrick-joins-james-in-freak-db-tier/

James has better ...stats..

https://herosports.com/college-football/player-comparison/derwin-james-vs-minkah-fitzpatrick

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000819401/article/what-we-learned-alabamas-minkah-fitzpatrick-clocks-blazing-40

The confusion goes on and on. I do have a hunch though, that in interviews, and one question:

"which one of these two is going to make division opponents curse that the Browns drafted him?"

Interviews - Derwin - on leadership, love for the game.

as to the question...

Derwin - he hits like dynamite - and he's a little bigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cal, most see highlights. dorsey/wolfe should be looking at low-lights..Derwin played at FSU & as TCPO pointed out, FSU had almost 90 penalties. Derwin does like looking for the espn highlight reel hits..Derwin does gamble on teams defensive systems(almost has to due to other 10).sometimes a roamer that Joe Flacco would read TE,Derwin would bite & get beat 60 yards down field. Bama about 70 penalties,  Fitz calls the defense, but all 11 stay discipline to the D system.. Sabin, like Belicheck, Everybody knows their role & sticks to it with no superstar roaming.Pick your poison? just in case, am moving on to a 3rd option, Penn States FS Marcus Allen..how bout a team with only 55 penalties a season..discipline,browns could sure use some       

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want Fitzpatrick because the Browns need a cornerback, and the Browns need a free safety.

Derwin James is a strong safety - correct? That's where Peppers should play.

Drafting Derwin James IMO is throwing away a first rounder from the draft before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I want Fitzpatrick because the Browns need a cornerback, and the Browns need a free safety.

Derwin James is a strong safety - correct? That's where Peppers should play.

Drafting Derwin James IMO is throwing away a first rounder from the draft before.

Minkah can’t play both at the same time, and he’s not necessarily elite at either of them.

Derwin is listed as a strong safety, but he’s not really. He’s listed as a strong safety because FSU played him basically like you’d play an X-Factor. Need a sack? Derwin on a blitz. 2 TE set? Derwin at LB. 3rd and 3? Put Derwin in the box. 2nd and 1, throw Derwin at FS.

In the NFL, he could project as a strong safety...but he plays FS just about as well as Minkah IMO  (I believe he had one of the lowest catch rates of all CFB FS, IIRC.)

He’s as rangy as, if not rangier than, Minkah and he’s probably the best true athlete in this class when all is said and done. 

People are iffy on the idea of a “weapon” because of the Peppers project, but Derwin is light years ahead of Peppers.

I’m not saying Minkah is bad, because he’s not. Nor am I saying he’ll have a bad career, because he won’t. But Derwin has Sean Taylor potential and will likely be available at 15.

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Who would I prefer? Derwin, for a few reasons. 

Another person said this and I happen to agree - Minkah isn’t a better true FS prospect than Hooker and he’s not a better true CB prospect than Lattimore. He’s a smart, athletic defender who can do both and do them fairly well, but he’s not a lock at either. His versatility is part of what drives him up the board.

In that same vein, Derwin is a (more) versatile player who followed a career path like that of Peppers - linebacker, safety, corner, $lb. Except he’s on a Sean Taylor level of athleticism, something Peppers is not.

Minkah benefitted from being on probably the most talented and disciplined defensive squad in CFB. Derwin did not. Sure, that makes the transition to the NFL easier...but it doesn’t make him the better player. 

Minkah is the obvious safer choice. But I still believe Derwin is the better player. Maybe not next season, or even the one after,  but I think Derwin will end up having the better career when all is said and done.

And he’ll be available later than Minkah, which means we could still conceivably get someone at #1, someone else at #4, and then package two picks to move up to #15 and get him...and then still have a few picks left over.

 

 

Yeah these Bama and LSU guys never seem to be quite as good as their billing.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You make a good case Tim. As I said I'd take whichever one is still there @4 if we go QB #1. I just prefer the defensive "brain" out there for a Browns team that looks lost from time to time on defense. Never underestimate the value of instant play diagnosis by a skilled defensive wrecker. If James is as good at that as Fitz I would not complain. Dat Nguyen was famous for that ability. Go directly to the 2:42 mark.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Minkah can’t play both at the same time, and he’s not necessarily elite at either of them.

Derwin is listed as a strong safety, but he’s not really. He’s listed as a strong safety because FSU played him basically like you’d play an X-Factor. Need a sack? Derwin on a blitz. 2 TE set? Derwin at LB. 3rd and 3? Put Derwin in the box. 2nd and 1, throw Derwin at FS.

In the NFL, he could project as a strong safety...but he plays FS just about as well as Minkah IMO  (I believe he had one of the lowest catch rates of all CFB FS, IIRC.)

He’s as rangy as, if not rangier than, Minkah and he’s probably the best true athlete in this class when all is said and done. 

People are iffy on the idea of a “weapon” because of the Peppers project, but Derwin is light years ahead of Peppers.

I’m not saying Minkah is bad, because he’s not. Nor am I saying he’ll have a bad career, because he won’t. But Derwin has Sean Taylor potential and will likely be available at 15.

 

 

 

You make a strong argument for James.

If he's able to be a very good FS, then I would definitely consider him. Everything I had seen on him seemed to point to him playing SS at the NFL level, which the Browns do not (allegedly) need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said:

You make a good case Tim. As I said I'd take whichever one is still there @4 if we go QB #1. I just prefer the defensive "brain" out there for a Browns team that looks lost from time to time on defense. Never underestimate the value of instant play diagnosis by a skilled defensive wrecker. If James is as good at that as Fitz I would not complain. Dat Nguyen was famous for that ability. Go directly to the 2:42 mark.

 

Dat Nguyen is a name I had not heard in a long time. It is a shame that injuries took a toll on him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

James has also been played as a cb, I think. I watched several interviews of both, seems that

a slight edge goes to James for leadership- just a guess.

Marcus Allen is terrific - but he isn't in the same class as James and Minkah.

Having said that, most mocks have James going later. Beats me. James goes #14 here...

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2018-nfl-mock-draft-five-qbs-go-in-first-round-but-a-trade-makes-sense-at-the-top/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Who would I prefer? Derwin, for a few reasons. 

Another person said this and I happen to agree - Minkah isn’t a better true FS prospect than Hooker and he’s not a better true CB prospect than Lattimore. He’s a smart, athletic defender who can do both and do them fairly well, but he’s not a lock at either. His versatility is part of what drives him up the board.

In that same vein, Derwin is a (more) versatile player who followed a career path like that of Peppers - linebacker, safety, corner, $lb. Except he’s on a Sean Taylor level of athleticism, something Peppers is not.

Minkah benefitted from being on probably the most talented and disciplined defensive squad in CFB. Derwin did not. Sure, that makes the transition to the NFL easier...but it doesn’t make him the better player. 

Minkah is the obvious safer choice. But I still believe Derwin is the better player. Maybe not next season, or even the one after,  but I think Derwin will end up having the better career when all is said and done.

And he’ll be available later than Minkah, which means we could still conceivably get someone at #1, someone else at #4, and then package two picks to move up to #15 and get him...and then still have a few picks left over.

 

 

Fair enough.   I just know that we need help in the Defensive Backfield.   I would want whichever one turned out to be the best.  And like I said: hell...we could use them both really...if we wanted to stack the deck in one unit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, wargograw said:

Yeah these Bama and LSU guys never seem to be quite as good as their billing.

Not when it comes to the Browns anyway:   a #3 overall on Bama's Trent Richardson.  A #6 overall on Louisiana State's   B. Mingo.  Yes...the Browns have gotten the shite end of the stick from those two schools in recent years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2018 at 1:43 PM, The Gipper said:

You got a mixed bag of QBs available in this draft....and the third one taken is likely no better than the first one.  Does it matter really if you miss on both Blaine Gabbert and Christian Ponder?

So now instead of one of two, it's one of three... or four... or six...

On 1/10/2018 at 3:27 PM, The Gipper said:

My point is yea? So?Darnold and Rosen may not be anywhere as good at playing their position as Minkah is at his.   Some don't even have Darnold and Rosen or either as being in the top 2 at their positions. 

As Tour said....if you have an absolutely No Brainer at QB...you go for the QB......but neither of those guys are considered a no brainer by any means.

Not what I said.

On 1/10/2018 at 1:43 PM, The Gipper said:

It may come down to: do we take the best PLAYER in this draft....or do we take who is the best perceived QB in the draft.

And there is the fallacy at the heart of your argument. Best PLAYER is just as much a matter of perception as best QB. And it's not your only fallacy...

Add that perception of college performance is the wrong criteria. It's projection of performance to the next level.

Add that "grading" is imprecise. It's why FOs group players of similar grades on their boards.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2018 at 5:32 PM, syd said:

guess we have a long time to talk about it

Yes, we do... and as that time passes a consensus the top one (or two) QB prospect(s) will emerge.

On 1/10/2018 at 5:39 PM, syd said:

thing is times have changed since then so many sports channels national sports radio (cough cough) the internet a lot of info out there some true some not but it usually gets figured out on message boards like these

And not just for rumors...

Go back to '83 and the average fan had no access to information, game tape, etc. to assess draft prospect for themselves. Pretty much the same in '93... better in '03... plenty by '13.

In the absence of the ability to self-assess fans could reference "expert" rankings, but what were few in '83 are now plentiful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2018 at 6:55 PM, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

It is. I believe they take a consensus from their writers and assign a grading scale. At least, they used to.

Sounds more like NFL.com's process.

Historically CBS has been "powered by DraftScout.com". But since DraftScout doesn't merge underclassmen until the declaration deadline passes (I think the date is 01-15-18 this year), CBS does something else until then to generate clicks.

22 hours ago, crstphr2 said:

You draft a QB.  Why?  Because how many points did Garrett score this year?

Six... but they were called back due to an offsides. ;)

18 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

In that same vein, Derwin is a (more) versatile player who followed a career path like that of Peppers - linebacker, safety, corner, $lb. Except he’s on a Sean Taylor level of athleticism, something Peppers is not.

That's the key with Derwin... he's not just a SS candidate, he has FS potential. Taylor is one comp I hear; Ed Reed is the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Tour2ma said:

... DraftScout doesn't merge underclassmen until the declaration deadline passes (I think the date is 01-15-18 this year)...

Well time flies... their top 750 is out... http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/top750.php?draftyear=2018&sortby=rateall&order=ASC

DSRank  Name  College Proj Hgt Wgt 40 20 10 Bench Vert Jump Broad Jump Shuttle 3Cone
1
Darnold, *Sam same.gif QB, Southern California 1 6-3 220 4.74              
1002552.jpg  
2
Barkley, *Saquon same.gif RB, Penn State 1 5-11 230 4.49              
1002768.jpg  
3
Rosen, *Josh injury.gif QB, UCLA 1 6-3 218 4.97              
1002663.jpg  
4
Fitzpatrick, *Minkah same.gif CB, Alabama 1 6-0 201 4.52              
1002685.jpg  
5
Chubb, Bradley same.gif DE, North Carolina State 1 6-3 275 4.84              
1006174.jpg  
6
James, *Derwin same.gif SS, Florida State 1 6-2 211 4.52              
1002656.jpg  
7
Payne, *DaRon same.gif DT, Alabama 1 6-2 308 5.38              
1002694.jpg  
8
Nelson, *Quenton same.gif OG, Notre Dame 1 6-4 330 5.23              
130728.jpg  
9
Allen, *Josh same.gif QB, Wyoming 1 6-4 240 4.76              
1007134.jpg  
10
Ward, *Denzel same.gif CB, Ohio State 1 5-10 191 4.37              
1003327.jpg  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

So now instead of one of two, it's one of three... or four... or six...

Not what I said.

And there is the fallacy at the heart of your argument. Best PLAYER is just as much a matter of perception as best QB. And it's not your only fallacy...

Add that perception of college performance is the wrong criteria. It's projection of performance to the next level.

Add that "grading" is imprecise. It's why FOs group players of similar grades on their boards.

 

 How many more times are you going to contradict yourself just for the personal pleasure of disagreeing with me?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

Dat Nguyen is a name I had not heard in a long time. It is a shame that injuries took a toll on him.

Tends to happen to undersized players who play like they aren't undersized.

Really good kid, too. He was at TAMU when my daughter was... I met him a couple times.

13 hours ago, wargograw said:

Yeah these Bama and LSU guys never seem to be quite as good as their billing.

Sarcasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, The Gipper said:

 How many more times are you going to contradict yourself just for the personal pleasure of disagreeing with me?  

Where have I done that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Tends to happen to undersized players who play like they aren't undersized.

Really good kid, too. He was at TAMU when my daughter was... I met him a couple times.

He was raised in Rockport and his family had a Vietnamese restaurant almost on the bay call "Who Dat". It had a lot of his stuff from A&M and Dallas displayed there. Nice family. They went back and got me some of their nouc mam (fish sauce) off the family table when I said I had served as an advisor in Phan Thiet - nouc mam capital of Vietnam. None of the watered down stuff set out so Americans could tolerate it. The really pungent smelly stuff I had come to love on everything.

I still wonder if their business was ruined by the hurricane this summer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Where have I done that?

Your post count is 22,374.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Well time flies... their top 750 is out... http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/top750.php?draftyear=2018&sortby=rateall&order=ASC

DSRank  Name  College Proj Hgt Wgt 40 20 10 Bench Vert Jump Broad Jump Shuttle 3Cone
1
Darnold, *Sam same.gif QB, Southern California 1 6-3 220 4.74              
1002552.jpg  
2
Barkley, *Saquon same.gif RB, Penn State 1 5-11 230 4.49              
1002768.jpg  
3
Rosen, *Josh injury.gif QB, UCLA 1 6-3 218 4.97              
1002663.jpg  
4
Fitzpatrick, *Minkah same.gif CB, Alabama 1 6-0 201 4.52              
1002685.jpg  
5
Chubb, Bradley same.gif DE, North Carolina State 1 6-3 275 4.84              
1006174.jpg  
6
James, *Derwin same.gif SS, Florida State 1 6-2 211 4.52              
1002656.jpg  
7
Payne, *DaRon same.gif DT, Alabama 1 6-2 308 5.38              
1002694.jpg  
8
Nelson, *Quenton same.gif OG, Notre Dame 1 6-4 330 5.23              
130728.jpg  
9
Allen, *Josh same.gif QB, Wyoming 1 6-4 240 4.76              
1007134.jpg  
10
Ward, *Denzel same.gif CB, Ohio State 1 5-10 191 4.37              
1003327.jpg  

No major issues- I like these block ratings- surprisingly, your guy Benkert is nowhere to be seen....  

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/valuechart.php?draftyear=2018

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/valuechart2.php?draftyear=2018

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, hoorta said:

No major issues- I like these block ratings- surprisingly, your guy Benkert is nowhere to be seen.... 

lol... now you remember one of my guys...

Kurt is their #9 QB with a Round 4/5 cusp parojection and ranked as the 165th player overall... right where a good, darkhorse should be. He'll rise, as all my darkhorses do, and likely sneak into Round 3.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=129869&draftyear=2018&genpos=QB

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

lol... now you remember one of my guys...

Kurt is their #9 QB with a Round 4/5 cusp parojection and ranked as the 165th player overall... right where a good, darkhorse should be. He'll rise, as all my darkhorses do, and likely sneak into Round 3.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=129869&draftyear=2018&genpos=QB

LOL, those who already have hitched their wagon to a specific player need to realize I haven't done that yet. (Almost all options are on my table- short of) Cousins- too short a window and too expensive, Allen- too damn inaccurate, and Lamar Jackson- RG IV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Tends to happen to undersized players who play like they aren't undersized.

Remember the Colts safety Bob Sanders, from Iowa?

Helluva player, smallish guy who threw his body around, missed a ton of games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Remember the Colts safety Bob Sanders, from Iowa?

Absolutely... pretty much the poster child for "writing checks the body couldn't cash."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×