SissyBoyFloyd Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Being new to the Browns' Nation I want to learn lots of things. So will keep my general questions to this one thread, instead of making a new thread for every question. Others are welcome to join me in learning by asking their own questions here. 1. Help me understand the Browns losing their team to Baltimore. How could that happen, why did it happen, what did it accomplish for that team and the league? 2. Maybe I will make this into a poll, but for now: What has been the #1 Browns' problem? What is the may reason they find themselves in such a situation? Please tell me what you think the 1 main reason that would sum all this up. Is it bad luck, GM, coaches, poor drafting, player themselves, the city of Cleveland for some reason, something hovering over this team like a curse, what is it in your head that makes the most sense to you, a fan? 3. For the sake of levity after reading #2: If Browns were facing the Raiders, and a brawl broke out in one isolated area of the stadium filled with a somewhat equal number of both teams fans, who would win, the Raider fans or Brown fans? Is there one particular group of Browns' fans which would best represent you in such a skirmish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 #1 - The Browns moved away because Art Modell wanted Municipal Stadium overhauled and to be paid by the city, state, etc. But they wouldn't do it. Instead they built a new stadium for the baseball team...because there was no guarantee they would stay and play in THAT piece of crap stadium (which was a baseball stadium...and NOT a football stadium). - The Browns had to put 50 guys into a locker room built for a 25 person baseball locker room (25 or so). They even had to use the VISITOR locker room because the league told them that it was ridiculous to make the visiting football team have to be squeezed into that locker room. Eventually, someone made Art an offer and off he went with his team. Art IS in fact the evil one for moving the team...but really, to blame was the elected officials. IMO #2 - Since then ownership has not been able to bring the right people together to run the team and acquire talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SissyBoyFloyd Posted January 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Orion said: #1 - The Browns moved away because Art Modell wanted Municipal Stadium overhauled and to be paid by the city, state, etc. But they wouldn't do it. Instead they built a new stadium for the baseball team...because there was no guarantee they would stay and play in THAT piece of crap stadium (which was a baseball stadium...and NOT a football stadium). - The Browns had to put 50 guys into a locker room built for a 25 person baseball locker room (25 or so). They even had to use the VISITOR locker room because the league told them that it was ridiculous to make the visiting football team have to be squeezed into that locker room. Eventually, someone made Art an offer and off he went with his team. Art IS in fact the evil one for moving the team...but really, to blame was the elected officials. IMO Thx, nice concise answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, SissyBoyFloyd said: Being new to the Browns' Nation I want to learn lots of things. So will keep my general questions to this one thread, instead of making a new thread for every question. Others are welcome to join me in learning by asking their own questions here. 1. Help me understand the Browns losing their team to Baltimore. How could that happen, why did it happen, what did it accomplish for that team and the league? There are numerous books written on this that can give you some serious backstory and history on it from various points of view. I can look them up for you at some point if you'd like but I know there are a lot of options. But to answer your question as to how it could happen, its a simple answer. Money and a lack of money at the time that Art Modell had. He was drowning in debt and needed a quick influx of cash and moving the team to Baltimore got that for him (something like $50 million but I'm not sure of the exact number) along with the money, he got a shiny new stadium built with a lot of luxury boxes which allowed him to make even more money than he was making in Cleveland in a stadium that was nearly as old as the Roman Coliseum. The bottom line in why he moved though...is simply money. Didn't help him though as he eventually had to sell off pieces of the team at a time to Bisquick or whatever that dudes name is that owns the team now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, SissyBoyFloyd said: 3. For the sake of levity after reading #2: If Browns were facing the Raiders, and a brawl broke out in one isolated area of the stadium filled with a somewhat equal number of both teams fans, who would win, the Raider fans or Brown fans? Is there one particular group of Browns' fans which would best represent you in such a skirmish? LOL!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoeticG Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 It's a curse man, it's gotta be, some bad mojo or something. I personally, have to think that it's something to do with Paul Brown. He started the Bengals and the Stadium they play in now is called Paul Brown Stadium... Paul Browns pretty much started us. It's like our identity is split, and neither of us, Cincy or Cleveland can put ourselves quite all the way back together. We as a team lost a part when Art kicked out Paul Brown, then another piece when Jim Browns walked away, then another piece when the team was taken... and so close to a Championship. It's like a bad relationship where you refuse to be 100 with each other because you're afraid to be hurt again. So it's lackadaisical in nature, you go through the motions but without the emotions. We need to heal, to gel with each other and be 'all in'. Learn a little something from the Cavs, all in is really a thing. Imagine if the Browns went all in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 Owning a NFL team is a license to print money. That being said, Art Modell still ended up going broke. That pretty much is the story of how the Cleveland Browns became the Baltimore Ravens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 There are many articles on "The Move" and related items like: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Browns_relocation_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Cleveland_Browns Read these and others like it and many of your questions will be magically answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickers Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 Heres a great read on what an idiot Art really was... https://www.amazon.com/Fumble-Browns-Michael-G-Poplar/dp/0936760117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 12 minutes ago, nickers said: Heres a great read on what an idiot Art really was... https://www.amazon.com/Fumble-Browns-Michael-G-Poplar/dp/0936760117 And check out the deals on the book! And Modell was a hustler, con man, basically a crook. See all formats and editions Hardcover from $3.8022 Used from $3.808 New from $35.763 Collectible from $25.00 <--- yes for $3.80 you can buy the book on Amazon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 8 hours ago, SissyBoyFloyd said: Thx, nice concise answer. RE: #1, I'll try to condense the book into a few paragraphs for you. Modell originally bought the team for around $2 million- using only around $250k of his own money. Problem was- Art couldn't live with the prosperity of the drastically increased value of NFL franchises. He got the original sweetheart deal from the city of Cleveland, all the (very primitive) luxury box revenue, and all the concessions. Stadium rent for a Buck. When his cash cow (The Indians) moved over to Jacobs Field (BTW Art was offered to move over to Gateway) he was in a cash bind, because he was siphoning off the ever increasing value of the franchise to take out ever bigger loans against it. It eventually caught up with him. His bleating "I had no choice" (to move) rings hollow, because he could have sold to his pal Al Lerner- who certainly had the cash to buy him out. Nope. Art wanted to have his cake and eat it too- not only still be in the select NFL owners clique, but pass the team down to his cigar chompin' kid. Well, nothing short of Divine Justice ensued- he got neither. After taking an enormous bribe from Baltimore and the State of Maryland to move the Browns, Art still couldn't generate enough cash flow to even cover the interest on his loans. He was about to get foreclosed on by Fleet Bank when to save face he incrementally was forced to sell off the team to Steve Biscotti. In the ever famous words of Frank DeFord "sorry Art, you're just not rich enough to own an NFL team anymore." RE: #2, It's been the most incredible run of disfunction ever in the recent history of the NFL. Bad FO, bad Coaches, bad draft picks. The draft pick misses have been on the epic level. For starters missing on two HOF QBs- Kurt Warner and Tom Brady, one HOF RB- Ladainian Tomlinson. And then drafting a series of bums in the first round like Barkevious Mingo, Justin Gilbert, Johnny Manziel, Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden- and I could go on. The only true HOF player the Browns have drafted since 1999 is Joe Thomas- and that's not good enough. #3 ? I'm too old to fight anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 16 hours ago, SissyBoyFloyd said: Being new to the Browns' Nation I want to learn lots of things. So will keep my general questions to this one thread, instead of making a new thread for every question. Others are welcome to join me in learning by asking their own questions here. 1. Help me understand the Browns losing their team to Baltimore. How could that happen, why did it happen, what did it accomplish for that team and the league? Oi.....a whole library section is available to this. I will boil your first two questions down to two words: Ownership Greed. On the second question, it accomplished what we currently have in terms of 32 teams, the divisional structure, and the playoff structure. 2. Maybe I will make this into a poll, but for now: What has been the #1 Browns' problem? What is the may reason they find themselves in such a situation? Please tell me what you think the 1 main reason that would sum all this up. Is it bad luck, GM, coaches, poor drafting, player themselves, the city of Cleveland for some reason, something hovering over this team like a curse, what is it in your head that makes the most sense to you, a fan? It is bad ownership, bad management, bad coaching, and bad players. It is not the City of Cleveland or some curse....it is just inept, incompetent personnell. Some bad luck due to the players they pick sucking badly...especially QBs. 3. For the sake of levity after reading #2: If Browns were facing the Raiders, and a brawl broke out in one isolated area of the stadium filled with a somewhat equal number of both teams fans, who would win, the Raider fans or Brown fans? Is there one particular group of Browns' fans which would best represent you in such a skirmish? This is not levity...it is stupidity. The fans that win would be the one that brings the most guns. Or the best guns. Automatics vs. single shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 15 hours ago, Orion said: #1 - The Browns moved away because Art Modell wanted Municipal Stadium overhauled and to be paid by the city, state, etc. But they wouldn't do it. Instead they built a new stadium for the baseball team...because there was no guarantee they would stay and play in THAT piece of crap stadium (which was a baseball stadium...and NOT a football stadium). - The Browns had to put 50 guys into a locker room built for a 25 person baseball locker room (25 or so). They even had to use the VISITOR locker room because the league told them that it was ridiculous to make the visiting football team have to be squeezed into that locker room. Eventually, someone made Art an offer and off he went with his team. Art IS in fact the evil one for moving the team...but really, to blame was the elected officials. IMO #2 - Since then ownership has not been able to bring the right people together to run the team and acquire talent. And this is why you cannont ask fans about "what happened" because many if not most of them will get it double dumbass dead wrong.....like in #1 above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 15 hours ago, SissyBoyFloyd said: Thx, nice concise answer. Perhaps, on #2 But If you like mostly completely wrong answers that are concise go with #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 12 hours ago, Dutch Oven said: Owning a NFL team is a license to print money. That being said, Art Modell still ended up going broke. That pretty much is the story of how the Cleveland Browns became the Baltimore Ravens. Again...except that the Cleveland Browns NEVER became the Baltimore Ravens. Sorry....but since this guy is a newbie...I think it is worth giving him accurate responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 Art wanted to have his cake and eat it too- By the way...as an aside and off topic....the idiom you quote here had a major part in the identification and capture of the Unabomber. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/22/545122205/fbi-profiler-says-linguistic-work-was-pivotal-in-capture-of-unabomber While this article doesn't explain that specifically......Ted Kaczinski on a couple of occasions used this phrase in his manifesto and in some letters, only he stated it this way: "(he) wanted to eat his cake and have it too". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 17 hours ago, SissyBoyFloyd said: 2. Maybe I will make this into a poll, but for now: What has been the #1 Browns' problem? What is the may reason they find themselves in such a situation? Please tell me what you think the 1 main reason that would sum all this up. Is it bad luck, GM, coaches, poor drafting, player themselves, the city of Cleveland for some reason, something hovering over this team like a curse, what is it in your head that makes the most sense to you, a fan? 3. For the sake of levity after reading #2: If Browns were facing the Raiders, and a brawl broke out in one isolated area of the stadium filled with a somewhat equal number of both teams fans, who would win, the Raider fans or Brown fans? Is there one particular group of Browns' fans which would best represent you in such a skirmish? 2. We started off in a hole. The prior NFL expansion teams (CAR and JAX in 1995) got very good deals entering the league including a generous expansion draft and additional common draft picks. As a result they developed very quickly and both made the playoffs in their 2nd season. The owners vowed to never be so generous again. So in '99 here we come and they kept their vow. Our original owner, Al Lerner, was a well intentioned man, but his initial hire to run the team, Carmen Policy was a disaster. The following from Bill Livingston, long time Cleveland Sportswriter: Carmen Policy, the empty suit hired by Al to run the team... I can't think of anyone else in Cleveland sports in the last 30 years who rode into town with similar fanfare and delivered so little in comparison. The ballyhoo was tremendous. Policy and Lerner would be a "Dream Team." When Cleveland fans awoke from their nightmare, it was obvious that Policy was a snake-oil salesman, riding on a salary-cap trick and a shoeshine. It took perceptiveness and guts for Randy to nudge Policy out because he had so charmed Al. http://www.cleveland.com/livingston/index.ssf/2012/08/randy_lerners_reign_over_the_c.html 3. Raiders fans... more spiked outfits, clubs and such vs. a couple oversized dogbones... 17 hours ago, Orion said: #1 - The Browns moved away because Art Modell wanted Municipal Stadium overhauled and to be paid by the city, state, etc. But they wouldn't do it. Instead they built a new stadium for the baseball team...because there was no guarantee they would stay and play in THAT piece of crap stadium (which was a baseball stadium...and NOT a football stadium). Old Muni was a fixed-seating, multi-use facility that wasn't great for either sport... but it had capacity. I remember 80k+ crowds for football including pre-season back in the days of the "Pro Football Double-Headers", which were basically NFL fundraisers for Art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 I can't remember who said this about Carmen Policy, but everyone knows someone like this: "If you want to know who the richest person is in any room, just look and see who Carmen Policy is talking to..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 7 hours ago, The Gipper said: And this is why you cannont ask fans about "what happened" because many if not most of them will get it double dumbass dead wrong.....like in #1 above. Yes, The Gipper has a different take. - Stick with mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 5 hours ago, Tour2ma said: Old Muni was a fixed-seating, multi-use facility that wasn't great for either sport... but it had capacity. I remember 80k+ crowds for football including pre-season back in the days of the "Pro Football Double-Headers", which were basically NFL fundraisers for Art. It was one of the LOUDEST places in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Orion said: Yes, The Gipper has a different take. - Stick with mine. You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to you own set of facts. Your facts are simply wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said: I can't remember who said this about Carmen Policy, but everyone knows someone like this: "If you want to know who the richest person is in any room, just look and see who Carmen Policy is talking to..." Oh yeah "Charmin' Carmen" used to live about 2 miles from me, I also knew his old law partner. He tagged along to SF back during their heyday and unfortunately ended up as part of the BROWNS 2.0 rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoeticG Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 --About Cleveland's first game and first couple seasons in the AAFC... read the bold... After a training camp at Bowling Green State University, the Browns played their first game in September 1946 at Cleveland Stadium.[76] A crowd of 60,135 people showed up to see the Browns beat the Miami Seahawks 44–0, then a record attendance mark for professional football.[77] That touched off a string of wins; the team ended the season with a 12–2 record and the top spot in the AAFC's western division.[78] The Browns then beat the AAFC's New York Yankees in the championship.[79] Cleveland won the AAFC championship again in 1947 behind an offensive attack that employed the forward pass more frequently and effectively than was typical at the time.[80] The Browns' offensive success was driven by Brown's version of the T formation, which was gradually replacing the single-wing formation as football's most popular and effective scheme.[81] The Browns won every game in the 1948 season, a feat that went unmatched until the Miami Dolphins (coached by Brown disciple Don Shula) did it in 1972.[80]Cleveland then won the AAFC championship for the fourth time in a row in 1949. By then, however, the league was struggling for survival, due in part to the Browns' dominance.[82] Attendance at games dwindled in 1948 and 1949 as fans lost interest in lopsided victories, and at the end of the 1949 season the AAFC dissolved. Three of its teams, the San Francisco 49ers, the Baltimore Colts and the Browns, merged into the NFL.[82] The Browns picked up a few good former AAFC players from other teams, including offensive guard Abe Gibron and defensive end Len Ford, but some observers saw Brown's team as the lone standout in an otherwise minor league.[83] ...Wow dawg, we really just got sick of winning.... I guess this is payback... what. a. bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berean Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 On 1/9/2018 at 5:53 PM, SissyBoyFloyd said: 2. Maybe I will make this into a poll, but for now: What has been the #1 Browns' problem? What is the may reason they find themselves in such a situation? I have never seen a better explanation of how miraculously inept the Browns are than is detailed in this short video. Please watch it. The bottomless pit of The Browns ineptitude is nothing short of supernatural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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