What Browns offered NE for Garappolo

[Dutch Oven]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-browns-willing-deal-no-4-overall-pick-jimmy-garoppolo-001050153.html

[Dutch Oven]

Here's more on this, from Terry Pluto...

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2018/01/how_cleveland_browns_were_froz.html

What a weird situation. It's almost like Belichick thought to himself: "Well if I have to make the stupid move of trading what should be our future QB, I'm going to make sure I'm hooking up my buddy Mike's son..."

[Orion]

Hoyer was a major player in the trade....even though he wasn't technically part of the trade.

[mjp28]

Is Billy Belichick still pissed at the BROWNS? 

.......If they truly turned down a chance at the first-round pick the Browns had acquired from the Houston Texans only to accept a considerably less valuable second-round pick from San Francisco, it’s a head-scratcher.

The Patriots have won five Super Bowls in seven appearances during the Brady/Belichick era in large part because they almost always get the better end of transactions. That they wouldn’t negotiate with the Browns or any team other than the 49ers is a stunner and out of character for a normally shrewd organization.

Hmmmmm?

[gumby73]

52 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Here's more on this, from Terry Pluto...

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2018/01/how_cleveland_browns_were_froz.html

Deal-breaker.."Sashi Brown would have been "Willing" to 'Help' Belichick shop around for a backup QB to 'Help' the trade Work"... 

 Sashi no's Qb's..       

[Bob806]

I think this is another "bash the Browns " article.

Don't forget, the national media bashed the Browns because they reported there wasn't any effort by the Browns to get a deal done with NE before the deadline.

So what are we to believe? That Sashi tried and was denied? Or the bumbling Browns didn't try? 

I'm not a Trump fan, but he's on to something with this "fake news" stuff.

[Dutch Oven]

21 minutes ago, Bob806 said:

I think this is another "bash the Browns " article.

Don't forget, the national media bashed the Browns because they reported there wasn't any effort by the Browns to get a deal done with NE before the deadline.

So what are we to believe? That Sashi tried and was denied? Or the bumbling Browns didn't try? 

I'm not a Trump fan, but he's on to something with this "fake news" stuff.

I don't quite follow Bob.

The article says that the Browns offered the #4 overall pick, and says that the Patriots basically refused to offer the Browns (and everyone else) a chance at Garappolo.

If anything, it makes the Patriots look dysfunctional.

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

Is Billy Belichick still pissed at the BROWNS? 

.......If they truly turned down a chance at the first-round pick the Browns had acquired from the Houston Texans only to accept a considerably less valuable second-round pick from San Francisco, it’s a head-scratcher.

The Patriots have won five Super Bowls in seven appearances during the Brady/Belichick era in large part because they almost always get the better end of transactions. That they wouldn’t negotiate with the Browns or any team other than the 49ers is a stunner and out of character for a normally shrewd organization.

Hmmmmm?

Belichick is pissed off at Brady and Kraft for forcing him to trade Garappolo, so he decided to just take a mediocre offer to screw the Pats? Sounds preposterous, but... ?

[Nero]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I don't quite follow Bob.

The article says that the Browns offered the #4 overall pick, and says that the Patriots basically refused to offer the Browns (and everyone else) a chance at Garappolo.

If anything, it makes the Patriots look dysfunctional.

Well, there were jokes because the 49ers got a trade for Garoppolo, who had been in Browns' plan in April. 

Now we see that they didn't even want the Houston first round pick and preferred SF's second.

So either it leaves us as a joke for not getting the deal or for being rejected with a Houston pick that ended up being #4. 

If making the Patriots look dysfunctional bashes the Browns, it certainly doesn't make me happy. The only thing that makes me happy is that I've been repeating that Sashi was not to blame for not getting the Garoppolo trade done, and latest news only confirm that view.

[Richiswhere]

Don't believe this one bit. I'm pretty sure that after this trade happened the Browns said they didn't know that the Patriots were looking to trade Graoppolo  and don't ever remember them saying that they just offered them the Texans 1st round pick

[7moses7]

It just doesn’t matter. Water over the dam. Move on 

[Bob806]

7 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I don't quite follow Bob.

The article says that the Browns offered the #4 overall pick, and says that the Patriots basically refused to offer the Browns (and everyone else) a chance at Garappolo.

If anything, it makes the Patriots look dysfunctional.

I'm just trying to make a point on these so-called experts. Now that dirt came out on NE,  suddenly Sashi was shrewd? 

They can't have it both ways. Peter King, LaCanfora, Rappaport have been spewing anti-Browns stuff for quite some time. Much of it is deserved. In this particular Jimmy G case, it looks like they need to retract the FO bashing, but they won't. 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

9 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Is Billy Belichick still pissed at the BROWNS? 

.......If they truly turned down a chance at the first-round pick the Browns had acquired from the Houston Texans only to accept a considerably less valuable second-round pick from San Francisco, it’s a head-scratcher.

The Patriots have won five Super Bowls in seven appearances during the Brady/Belichick era in large part because they almost always get the better end of transactions. That they wouldn’t negotiate with the Browns or any team other than the 49ers is a stunner and out of character for a normally shrewd organization.

Hmmmmm?

I don't see how he could be mad at the Browns.  Modell fired him and that team is now in Baltimore.

[jrb12711]

11 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Here's more on this, from Terry Pluto...

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2018/01/how_cleveland_browns_were_froz.html

What a weird situation. It's almost like Belichick thought to himself: "Well if I have to make the stupid move of trading what should be our future QB, I'm going to make sure I'm hooking up my buddy Mike's son..."

Guys, come on. If the Browns seriously offered the Patriots a top 5 pick compared to a 2nd round pick they would have taken it. This is just sensationalist garbage. The Patriots have become a dynasty in large part to making shrewd moves in the best interest of the organization. It's all but impossible to think they would have left that much draft capital on the table because of not wanting to trade with us. Use your noodle.

[jiggins7919]

32 minutes ago, boo fagley said:

The Jimmy trade made no sense for the Browns anyway.

Not with this draft. Jimmy is 4 years in this season. The Browns can draft a kid straight out of school. Add at least 2 - 3 years to the playing career that Jimmy doesnt have anymore.

Nope, draft a Stud QB, get Alex Smith who can win you 7 - 9 games and if the stars align, maybe the playoffs and draft a stud RB or WR with the # 4.

This is what many of us have been screaming for the past few months.  The ONLY problem with this is we don't really have a backup plan.  Sure, there are other veteran QB's who will be available, but Alex is (to me) by far the best.  Cousins won't happen, so I don't even talk about that anymore.  Once you get past the awful and unthinkable "0-16" record, and you begin to look at the actual PIECES of our team, it's not as awful as one would think.  We're a young team who will obviously get a little older and wiser.  We have a solid offensive line, maybe even "good" with Thomas back.  As of right now, we have a few offensive weapons, including an elite caliber WR if he can make it back.  Duke is exceptional out of the backfield, and Alex will make Njoku a LOT of money.  Shoot, Devalve too.  As bad as our team was, and that's HISTORICALLY bad, you can almost see some of the pieces coming together if we get a guy like Alex Smith.  

Listen, I'm NOT saying we're going to the playoffs, and I'm not saying anything stupid like we're going "all the way!", but I can actually see what our team can become with the signing of a veteran QB.  And that's just one piece, imagine signing some free agents and drafting talent as well.  The Peppers pick really hurt us, but he was just a rookie in a bonkers scheme.  If there's one thing I can say about the guy, he's a worker.  He's driven, football-crazy, and he has a chance to make it all work.  

To be honest, the guy who COULD benefit the absolute most is Corey Coleman.  Alex Smith completed over 70% of his passes this year, and that's nutso.  But even more, Smith is one of the game's BEST at "leading" his receiver and delivering the football in such a way that the receiver doesn't have to break stride.  THAT'S what we really need from Corey, and he wasn't getting that from Kizer.  How many of Corey's catches were diving efforts?  Usually going very low to get his hands under the ball, and almost always coming up with the catch.  Yes, he had two of the worst drops you'll ever see, but other than those two, he made some pretty tough plays for us.  That being said, we STILL haven't seen the "electric plays" from Coleman.  No broken tackles and big gains.  No running with the ball, juking defenders, making people miss, and giving us the big play.  Some of that is obviously his fault, but some of it isn't.  A guy like Alex Smith could basically change Corey's CAREER.

Someone else?  How about Higgins?  No receiver gets the ball perfectly thrown to them every time they're open, we know that, but Higgins really should've had a better season.  Kizer missed him at least 3 times in the end zone, multiple times deep, and countless other times when Kizer flat-out didn't even see him.  Higgins was one of the only guys that showed the ability to get yards after the catch, even if it was only a handful of times.  I actually really liked what I saw out of him, and believe it or not, Higgins was actually getting OPEN a good deal.  

I'm not trying to make Alex Smith sound like the second coming of Joe Montana, I promise I'm not, but if you apply his abilities to what we do on offense, it's a very good fit (in my eyes).  He's accurate, decisive, mobile, and knows how to get EVERYONE involved.  In the second quarter of the Chiefs' last game, Alex already completed passes to 6 different players.  I love that.  Best of all, Alex doesn't turn the ball over much.  How does THAT sound?  Believe it or not, but we're starting to get some red zone weapons.  How many times did Kizer try to throw the stupid fade pass?  I'm pretty sure Alex has THAT pass in his arsenal.  Njoku, Duke, Devalve, Gordon, Higgins, Coleman...all have shown they can get open in the red zone.  Alex can actually HIT them more often than not.

[The Gipper]

It is a simple, bottom line situation:    BB was essentially forced by Kraft to trade JG.   But there was no way in hell that he was going to trade him to another AFC team.   He was going to trade him out of conference so that at best he would have to face him only once every 4 years....and not possibly every year.   Even if they had to take less in trade for him, they were going to put him in the NFC.

[Nero]

13 minutes ago, boo fagley said:

Bledsoe to the Bills

Brisett to the Colts

Seymour to the Raiders

Wilfork landed with the Texans

The AFC had nothing to do with it. Before the season began, the Browns wanted Jimmy, but Sashi would not come close to the asking price because Jimmy was set to be a FA after this season and contract negotiations with him were at an impasse. And also, for the reasons that I have previously stated that this is a QB rich draft. Sashi low balled Belichick and he told Brown to get fvcked.

When it was clear that Brady shows no signs of slowing down, Jimmy would not agree to another contract with more years responsible for holding the clipboard for the foreseeable future. Thereby leaving the Pats no option but to Franchise him to the tune of 20+ million for 2018. Brady is on the books for near 20 million in 2018 too. 40 million for 2 QBs? No.

So, when the Pats were forced to let Jimmy go for less than fair market price, SF got the nod because they did not try to weasel more off the asking price like Sashi did first time around. The Browns tried to pull a craigslist short money at the time of the sale and it got Sashi fired.

I agree that AFC didn't have anything to do with trading JG to SF.

I don't agree on why did Belichick not call Sashi, I'll post again what I said on 'Jimmy Grabsapillow traded to...' thread:

The case is that Browns offered a 2nd round pick for Jimmy Garoppolo in May, whereas the 49ers opted to get two FA. Both moves where made so none of the teams would draft a QB. 

But the Brows finally did, and the rookie is playing, poorly, but playing. 

So now, 6 months later, and half a season before the said player becomes free agent, who are you going to negotiate with: the team that already has a QB thanks to you not accepting a deal, or the team whose QB has not panned out and you know can work as your backup? 

If I were Sashi, I doubt I would have offered the same as 6months earlier, and the Patriots knew SF could offer the same or more.

Bear in mind that Hoyer did not work at all in SF, so it was like trading Free Agents. I think that had a lot to do too. 

[The Gipper]

36 minutes ago, boo fagley said:

Bledsoe to the Bills  over the hill

Brisett to the Colts...not considered a factor for the future.

Seymour to the Raiders  over the hill

Wilfork landed with the Texans  over the hill

NONE of these guys are anything like JG....who BB considered the team's future. These guys were considered the team's past when he got rid of them...and was not worried about them coming back to bite him in the butt.  He was plenty worried about JG doing just that.

The AFC had nothing to do with it. Before the season began, the Browns wanted Jimmy, but Sashi would not come close to the asking price because Jimmy was set to be a FA after this season and contract negotiations with him were at an impasse. And also, for the reasons that I have previously stated that this is a QB rich draft. Sashi low balled Belichick and he told Brown to get fvcked.

So? He took an even more low ball offer from the 49ers?

When it was clear that Brady shows no signs of slowing down, Jimmy would not agree to another contract with more years responsible for holding the clipboard for the foreseeable future. Thereby leaving the Pats no option but to Franchise him to the tune of 20+ million for 2018. Brady is on the books for near 20 million in 2018 too. 40 million for 2 QBs? No.

I agree...it made no sense to pay that kind of money to both.  Of course, BB could have done to Brady what he did to Bernie...and told him to take a hike.   I think the Bernie thing may in fact be a contributing factor as to why he did not elect to let Brady go.....he didn't want the same kind of backlash....considering how much more of a "God"  TB is in NE than Bernie probably was here.

So, when the Pats were forced to let Jimmy go for less than fair market price, SF got the nod because they did not try to weasel more off the asking price like Sashi did first time around. The Browns tried to pull a craigslist short money at the time of the sale and it got Sashi fired.

Well....apparently BB didn't try to weasel anything more out of anyone.   On the other hand...BB may be thinking:  " screw Kraft....I will just let JG go for a handful of beans when I likely could have gotten a lot more.   They want me to get rid of what I consider to be the future of this team, fine.  I am going to have no future here either....so I will just take minimal for JG...and let the Pats stew in it after I am gone."

 

[The Gipper]

And yes...I think that getting Hoyer back from the Niners was a big factor as to why JG was dealt to the Niners.  

[Westside Steve]

I like Jimmy when he came out and think the number for would be a good price. Somebody in the Patriots organization made a bad decision.

WSS

[Nero]

7 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

I like Jimmy when he came out and think the number for would be a good price. Somebody in the Patriots organization made a bad decision.

WSS

To be fair, at the trade deadline the Texans were 3-4, and Watson was playing great, so anybody could have said that they could be even in the playoffs and that pick would be a #20

[Westside Steve]

17 minutes ago, Nero said:

To be fair, at the trade deadline the Texans were 3-4, and Watson was playing great, so anybody could have said that they could be even in the playoffs and that pick would be a #20

And they got a second-rounder which would be oh, let me think, worse than a number 20?

Besides Hoyer is a bum. Sorry, he's a Cleveland guy and everything but...

WSS

[hoorta]

16 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

And yes...I think that getting Hoyer back from the Niners was a big factor as to why JG was dealt to the Niners.  

Part of it, Gip. I see it as Kraft not being willing to part with Brady when the heir apparent is obviously ready in Billy's mind. I've said trading TB isn't unthinkable, as the 49ers did the same thing, trading Joe Montana to KC when they had Steve Young waiting in the wings. Seems like it came full circle. Patriot fans would have gotten over losing Tom when Jimmy kept on winning. We know Bill has zero sentimentality when it comes to keeping the wins coming. If the Browns really did offer a first round pick (I would have been temporarily pissed about it) it would have to have been Kraft overruling Bill.

[Nero]

4 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

And they got a second-rounder which would be oh, let me think, worse than a number 20?

Besides Hoyer is a bum. Sorry, he's a Cleveland guy and everything but...

WSS

I'm not saying that a second rounder isn't worse. 

I'm just pointing that we know NOW that the Houston pick is #4. At the time you could think of it even as a #20.

[The Gipper]

20 minutes ago, boo fagley said:

You dont know anything about JG.

Nobody really knows anything about JG.  

He has won some games is all. Big deal. Jimmy has weaknesses just like Brady has weaknesses and the Patriots know full well how to take advantage of his flaws. Belichick has never traded a player out of the conference because he was afraid to face him again on another AFC team. Foolishness. A big factor in letting JG go was his desire to play now. It wasnt fair to keep him on the bench like it was an Ohio prison.

Seymour was not over the hill and played 4 more seasons

Bledsoe played 5 more seasons

Wilfork still had gas in the tank and Houston had a top 10 defense both seasons that he played NT there.

But keep throwing crap against the wall eventually something will stick.

Yes...the thing that sticks is that  BB has always been willing to let go of guys "a year too early rather than a year too late"....and he idd that with all those guys:  Seymour, Wilfork, Bledsoe.

You are making my point for me.   And BB may have been willing to do the same with Brady....except Kraft would never allow that to happen. So TB was staying as the Pats starter, no matter what...and JG had to be let go for under market value.

 

[Tour2ma]

Seymour over the hill... lol... only made the Pro Bowl in 2 of his 4 seasons with the Raiders.

4 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

Guys, come on. If the Browns seriously offered the Patriots a top 5 pick compared to a 2nd round pick they would have taken it. This is just sensationalist garbage. The Patriots have become a dynasty in large part to making shrewd moves in the best interest of the organization. It's all but impossible to think they would have left that much draft capital on the table because of not wanting to trade with us. Use your noodle.

It's entirely possible both stories are true...

• that in the preseason we did offer the Texans' pick (which at time we did not know was a top five pick... and probably thought was far from it),
• but that we were no longer offering that pick at mid-season.

Regardless the point remains that Bill only discussed the ultimate trade with one FO... and it wasn't us.

[cdl15]

5 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

Guys, come on. If the Browns seriously offered the Patriots a top 5 pick compared to a 2nd round pick they would have taken it. This is just sensationalist garbage. The Patriots have become a dynasty in large part to making shrewd moves in the best interest of the organization. It's all but impossible to think they would have left that much draft capital on the table because of not wanting to trade with us. Use your noodle.

Maybe it came down to who Bill actually wanted to trade too. 

 

SF he probably recognized a franchise heading the correct direction and would prob be able to safely secure Jimmy G 

VS

Browns. Who doesn't take the best coach in the game to figure out Cleveland is probably going to struggle and within 6 months to a couple of years Jimmy G would leave cleveland to maybe a closer more dangerous FOE. Pittsburgh, Buffalo, colts, miami or even the Jets. 

 

Put it this way. Would you turn your own 1st rounder into a 2nd rounder if that meant Pittsburgh had to lose a 24 year old Big Ben?

[mjp28]

10 hours ago, The Gipper said:

It is a simple, bottom line situation:    BB was essentially forced by Kraft to trade JG.   But there was no way in hell that he was going to trade him to another AFC team.   He was going to trade him out of conference so that at best he would have to face him only once every 4 years....and not possibly every year.   Even if they had to take less in trade for him, they were going to put him in the NFC.

I can see not putting him in your division or maybe the AFC but SF only? (if you believe the articles verbatim)

[Ibleedbrown]

2 recentish trades come to mind where the Pats dealt with the likes of Sashi Brown, and l'd say the Browns got the better end of the deal. 

Getting Collins and unloading Mingo for an actual draft pick. 

Hardly fleecings, but a tip of the scale in our direction l think. Clearly the Pats feared Sashi Brown's dealing mojo and wanted no more of it.

[jiggins7919]

21 hours ago, boo fagley said:

Smith is a very good QB. Not without his faults like any QB.

He passed for 72% in the loss. The Browns could win with him. He would be night and day compared to Kizer.

 

You're absolutely right.  He definitely has his faults, or else no team would EVER let him go, but in terms of what WE need and where WE are at the moment, it's not impossible to envision a scenario where our 2018 team wins 6 games.  People that know me understand that I'm not "Captain Optimism", and I don't go around making grandiose predictions, but I believe 6 wins would be about the right number to expect. 

If (and that's a GIANT if) we sign Alex, that only helps to shore up one side of the ball.  Anybody that watched our team for more than a couple weeks knows that we have just as many problems on defense, and THAT’S where I’m really wondering about our chance to improve.  We missed out on the Safety Jefferson during free agency last year because of who we are, and that’s going to happen occasionally.  A team can only depend on rookies to help so much, so we’ll need our players to develop and our front office to bust out the checkbook. 

The GOOD news is that it appears Gregg Williams is coming back, and whether or not you agree with his blitz-heavy strategy, the fact that we’ll have young players staying in the same system for two consecutive years is a bonus.  Schobert had a breakout season, and while he had a TON of tackles, he desperately needs to improve on his coverage abilities.  Perhaps another year in the same system will help.  I remember the first game of the season, on a monumental 2^nd or 3^rd down…Schobert deflected a pass intended for Antonio Brown, and the unthinkable happened.  The deflection somehow went DIRECTLY to Brown…IN STRIDE…for a huge gain.  My point is, maybe with another year in the same system, plays like THAT will go our way because we’ll be in slightly better position.  Schobert and others had a bunch of plays just like that where we were SO close.

We need corners who can play press coverage, which makes Sashi's decision to cut Haden all the more puzzling.  Haden wasn't his dominant self, but he was still good enough to help out team, and that move as much as any demonstrated how out of touch Sashi was with the actual game.  You can't just look at numbers...it won't work.  Haden also filled an emotional need and had a connection to our city.  It was a bad move all around, and another nail in Sashi's coffin.  I don't believe our new management is going to screw the pooch like that, and I'm excited about seeing what they plan to do because it's become painfully obvious...the fans have had ENOUGH.