Josh Allen mechanics are very good.

[The Gipper]

3) Sure- Josh is a hero in Wyoming, because NFL level talent shows up at Laramie once in a blue moon. Ohio State or Alabama churn out more top NFL talent in one year than Wyoming does in 20 or 30. 

Maybe the best talent out of Wyoming is a guy we had:   my brother from another mother:  Tashaun.

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

If Kizer can correct his accuracy problems, he's bound for Canton.

What's that? He can't? I, for one, am shocked.

Let's repeat the process with a QB who found a way to be less accurate than Kizer in college! [Kizer 59% as a senior, 63% as a junior]

 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

I was just listening to Browns Daily this morning, and Nathan Zegura asked Senior Staff Writer Andrew Gribble a thoughtful question.  He said, "Gribbs...last year the Browns drafted a guy who was built very similarly to Josh Allen.  A guy who struggled with accuracy, someone who can really wow people with some of his throws, and someone who has the kind of size many people want in a QB.  What separates Josh Allen from Deshone Kizer, and why would someone draft Allen 50 spots higher than Kizer and perhaps #1 overall?"

Interestingly enough, Gribble said he didn't have an answer.  Now he backed out by saying he still needs more time to evaluate Allen, and also said that somebody who knows much more about QB's would have to answer that, but he basically couldn't provide an answer on what separates Josh Allen from Deshone Kizer.  Additionally, Gribble said that Allen has done NOTHING to calm any fears regarding accuracy, and Allen has definitely had the most "where is THAT ball going?" throws of the Senior Bowl so far.  And while it's still extremely early, he even said he'd compare Allen a little bit to "Major League" where some of Allen's throws were "Juuuuuuuust a bit outside!  Tried the corner and missed...."

Josh Allen played in the Mountain West, and his numbers have already been brought up enough.  To put it bluntly, they weren't good...at all.  At this very early juncture of the evaluation process, I want nothing to do with him.  This can obviously change as we get more information, I see some breakdowns of Allen's games, and I see the other candidates play more, but if you're the Browns, and you haven't had a good QB in almost 2 decades, why on EARTH would you want to take a risk on a guy who played in the Mountain West that struggles to throw the ball where he wants to?

People want to talk like Allen is in play for the #1 pick, and I think that's absolutely CRAZY.  I don't even have him above Lamar Jackson.  That being said, I just heard an interesting anecdote on Browns Daily (taped from 1/24).  The same unnamed "Senior NFL Executive" who said the Browns should take Carson Wentz and "they'd be set for over a decade" two years ago, also just said that "Josh Allen is #1 and it's not even close."  I'm looking forward to studying Josh Allen more and really delving into some of his actual games to make my own opinion.  Right now, I don't have him very high at all, but it's fascinating to hear that reputable NFL talent evaluators have him #1, and it HAS to go beyond just being big and having a huge arm.  Has anybody REALLY broken this guy down?  If you have, what do you see?  I'm talking about evaluating beyone the paltry stats.  

[The Gipper]

57 minutes ago, Mark O said:

1.  Kizer is just as inaccurate a QB as Allen.  The stats prove that out if you would just choose to read them.

2. Huge success??  seriously?  Mountain West honorable mention is huge success??  Get the Shmuck out of here.  

3. Of course he was.  And Donell Pumphrey is a hero at San Diego State for the same reason.  SDSU is the only team in SD so having a star player makes him a hero regardless of how talented he actually is.

4. I am unaware of Rosen's politics.  I prefer Mayfield or Darnold (preferably a FA over both of them) over Rosen.   I am in anyone but Allen camp.   We don't need another great athlete inaccurate QB on the roster, we already have one. 

 

[calfoxwc]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

3) Sure- Josh is a hero in Wyoming, because NFL level talent shows up at Laramie once in a blue moon. Ohio State or Alabama churn out more top NFL talent in one year than Wyoming does in 20 or 30. 

Maybe the best talent out of Wyoming is a guy we had:   my brother from another mother:  Tashaun.

maybe if an elephant had really big wings, it could fly....

[tiamat63]

Noticed a few throws during practice.  While it isn't consistent, there are times when Allen isn't dropping his elbow on initial wind up - which is a nice sign of recognizing poor mechanics and working to improve.  

[The Gipper]

38 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

maybe if an elephant had really big wings, it could fly....

Right now.....Tashaun Gipson is a far more proven talent than  Allen.    He was a UDFA that made at least one Pro Bowl with the Browns. And who knows....he may forever prove to be a better NFL talent than Allen.

Or..so you have a third person in mind.

[Tour2ma]

15 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

You just love you some rosen because he fits your politics, and you can't let go of that.

I'm going to try to keep the forum sections separated. Care to join me?

7 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Liberal Obamaoite.

More like RINO...

[Tour2ma]

I also do not "get" the Allen-Wentz comparisons. Despite very similar ht/wt measurements, Wentz looks much thicker to me.

Carson also came off more confident... more comfortable "in his skin" back during his Sr Bowl Week than I see Allen looking. I think this may be where teams start downgrading Allen this and Combine Week.

 

Back to throwing... NfL Live  did a live cut in to their Sr. Bowl coverage on ESPNU (I did not know they were covering the week "live"). Here's the gist of a couple observations on Allen:

• Polian: "He looks better."
• McShay: "He's showing more touch. Everything on tape is "fastballs". He seems to be learning that he does not need to do so."
• Riddick: "Have you noticed how much better he throws the out-routes than anything inside?" Everyone: "Yes."

What I saw in Allen's Day 2 work.

• The more players that there were on the field, the worse Allen performed. The above cut in was during WR "vs air" drills. Yesterday as DBs were added thru 7-on-7 and then full squad work Allen's "touch" evaporated. To my eye he recognizes "open" late and then tries to make up time with his arm-strength.
• On one throw during the full squad session Allen did something I've never seen a QB do... as he threw he bent at his wait to his left side. It was freaking weird. There was a little DL pressure which he sidestepped left. He reset well, but then inexplicably brought his frontfoot back and "in the bucket" to his left, and then bent to the left producing some kind of weird "over-the-top-3/4-sidearm" throw. The throw sailed high and behind an open WR running a 15-yd out. I'm not feeling a lot of "cool under pressure" in his game.

[calfoxwc]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

I'm going to try to keep the forum sections separated. Care to join me?

That ship sailed over the edge several times. I just had to get a reverse in there. Last one.

[hoorta]

7 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

I was just listening to Browns Daily this morning, and Nathan Zegura asked Senior Staff Writer Andrew Gribble a thoughtful question.  He said, "Gribbs...last year the Browns drafted a guy who was built very similarly to Josh Allen.  A guy who struggled with accuracy, someone who can really wow people with some of his throws, and someone who has the kind of size many people want in a QB.  What separates Josh Allen from Deshone Kizer, and why would someone draft Allen 50 spots higher than Kizer and perhaps #1 overall?"

Interestingly enough, Gribble said he didn't have an answer.  Now he backed out by saying he still needs more time to evaluate Allen, and also said that somebody who knows much more about QB's would have to answer that, but he basically couldn't provide an answer on what separates Josh Allen from Deshone Kizer.  Additionally, Gribble said that Allen has done NOTHING to calm any fears regarding accuracy, and Allen has definitely had the most "where is THAT ball going?" throws of the Senior Bowl so far.  And while it's still extremely early, he even said he'd compare Allen a little bit to "Major League" where some of Allen's throws were "Juuuuuuuust a bit outside!  Tried the corner and missed...."

Josh Allen played in the Mountain West, and his numbers have already been brought up enough.  To put it bluntly, they weren't good...at all.  At this very early juncture of the evaluation process, I want nothing to do with him.  This can obviously change as we get more information, I see some breakdowns of Allen's games, and I see the other candidates play more, but if you're the Browns, and you haven't had a good QB in almost 2 decades, why on EARTH would you want to take a risk on a guy who played in the Mountain West that struggles to throw the ball where he wants to?

People want to talk like Allen is in play for the #1 pick, and I think that's absolutely CRAZY.  I don't even have him above Lamar Jackson.  That being said, I just heard an interesting anecdote on Browns Daily (taped from 1/24).  The same unnamed "Senior NFL Executive" who said the Browns should take Carson Wentz and "they'd be set for over a decade" two years ago, also just said that "Josh Allen is #1 and it's not even close."  I'm looking forward to studying Josh Allen more and really delving into some of his actual games to make my own opinion.  Right now, I don't have him very high at all, but it's fascinating to hear that reputable NFL talent evaluators have him #1, and it HAS to go beyond just being big and having a huge arm.  Has anybody REALLY broken this guy down?  If you have, what do you see?  I'm talking about evaluating beyone the paltry stats.  

I'll defer to Tour on an in depth breakdown of Allen's mechanics. I don't have the level of knowledge to intelligently comment on that. BTW Mayrock says they need a lot of work. Here's my take. Me and Tex Ag have both watched 4-5 complete college games of Allen's- and come to the same conclusion- not good.. Except the Potato Bowl where he beat up on Central Michigan. Josh has a true rocket launcher arm attached to his shoulder- but it's not all that accurate. I love Tour's take that when Allen hits the side of the barn- he can put a hole in it. To be fair, there was a comment at the Senior Bowl some receivers were having trouble adjusting to the speed the ball was getting into them- because they had never seen anything that fast before. When he gets everything right (not often enough) on some of his college tape, you'd swear you were seeing a reincarnation of John Elway. OTOH, me and Mark have the same viewpoint- Allen's on- field game (forget the other crap Cal keeps dredging up) looks exactly the same as Kizer looked like at Notre Dame- and I watched several of his college games. Allen is better at minimizing brain fart turnovers Deshone had\has a penchant for at ND and the Browns, but that's about it. Other than that, they're essentially the same player. Allen @ the Senior Bowl 6' 4.75" 238 lb, 10.25" hand. Kizer @ the combine 6' 4.1" 233 lb, 9.9" hand. (As I like to point out some draftniks had Kizer rated as the #1 qb prospect last year) 

Allen looks best on rollouts- I really don't remember a lot of him just sitting in the pocket and going through his progressions- that's my fault for not taking notes...   

So maybe that's what scouts love about Allen- his ideal size, terrific arm and the potential for future growth. He's not there yet, and damn near everyone thinks he's a work in progress. Do I think (or should the Browns) want to take a chance on that with the #1 or #4 picks? I say no, and hell no. Allen is not another Carson Wentz- note stats below, but some team is going to fall in love with that big arm and take a flyer on him in the first round. Jeremiah thinks mid first. If it wasn't for the ++ arm, he'd be a day three prospect.  It's the same thing that was said a few years ago about Johnny Football. Highest ceiling, lowest floor. 

If you want stats- here's the current top prospects college stats...   (in order of my current preference, completion %, TD\ints- and note the schools)

Sam Darnold- USC   64.9% 57\22

Baker Mayfield- Oklahoma 68.5% 131\30

Josh Rosen- UCLA  60.9% 59\29

Mason Rudolph OK State 63.2% 92\26

Josh Allen- Wyoming  56.2% 44\21

Luke Falk- Washington State 68.3% 119\39

Lamar Jackson- Louisville  57% 69\27

Kurt Benkert- Virginia 57.7% 46\20

Mike White- Western Kentucky 62% 74\31

and for kicks and giggles

Carson Wentz- ND State 64.1% 45\14

[Bigalow80]

The more I watch, the more I see another version of Kizer. Darnold or Rosen or bust..

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

That ship sailed over the edge several times. I just had to get a reverse in there. Last one.

Fair enough... I've more than participated myself.

Now we just need to work on Ag...

[TexasAg1969]

5 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

• I'm not feeling a lot of "cool under pressure" in his game.

There it is in a nutshell. Exactly what I observed in watching 4 complete games of his this past season. Usually he goes "rabbit" when that happens or throws way too high. Kizer II.

EDIT: Here's the thing. I lived in Cheyenne for 5+ years and there is nothing more I would like to see than one of the Cowboys do well. But he just is not NFL caliber. I wish he was.

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said:

There it is in a nutshell. Exactly what I observed in watching 4 complete games of his this past season. Usually he goes "rabbit" when that happens or throws way too high. Kizer II.

EDIT: Here's the thing. I lived in Cheyenne for 5+ years and there is nothing more I would like to see than one of the Cowboys do well. But he just is not NFL caliber. I wish he was.

Ditto that here Ag. Consider Wyoming one of my favorite states to visit. Been on U Wyoming's campus several times. Climbed Medicine Bow Peak twice, a couple of the Tetons, and about 7 in the Wind River Range (including Gannett, ah the allure of the Highpointers Club). Cal can rag on me all he wants- like you, nothing better I'd like to see than one of the Cowboys do well in the NFL.  But like you- I'm just not seeing it in Josh....  

[calfoxwc]

Some yuppies never planted a seed and watched it grow into a beautiful plant. Why,you take a beet seed. It isn't pretty. Rolls around a bit crooked in yer hand.  Some yuppies, why, they be figurin' to figure that that beet seed ain't gonna amount to nothin. But you take that beet side, put it in some good dirt, a little water, a touch of fertilizer, and you just watch that little seed turn into somethin beautiful.

    Now, lookee here. You got yer gold beets, yer red beets, yer striped beets. You don't know by lookin what you can be agrowinwhen you draft a smart future star, and add a little great coachin, surround him with great fellow players, and he grows into a great qb. Now, he may be a red..skins qb. Or, he could be a gold qb. Now, he ain't never agonna be no sickly stinkin three rivers scum yeller, or he'll be just be a cowpie follerin some gal into a bathroom, know what I'm sayin?

    You just gotta see the beet in the future. Some can't do nothin but see the seed. The rest of us - we see the full growed beet. Now, you just gotta have a good seed to grow. You gotta have that qb that you figure will grow. Ain't no qb gonna grow into a right fine qb in the NFL, if'n he ain't got the vision to see the field, and at least enough character to stay on it.

End of story, fellers. Some of us see what he can be after he grows into an NFL qb; some can only see the seed. That's pretty much all thar is to it.

  

[TexasAg1969]

26 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Some yuppies never planted a seed and watched it grow into a beautiful plant. Why,you take a beet seed. It isn't pretty. Rolls around a bit crooked in yer hand.  Some yuppies, why, they be figurin' to figure that that beet seed ain't gonna amount to nothin. But you take that beet side, put it in some good dirt, a little water, a touch of fertilizer, and you just watch that little seed turn into somethin beautiful.

    Now, lookee here. You got yer gold beets, yer red beets, yer striped beets. You don't know by lookin what you can be agrowinwhen you draft a smart future star, and add a little great coachin, surround him with great fellow players, and he grows into a great qb. Now, he may be a red..skins qb. Or, he could be a gold qb. Now, he ain't never agonna be no sickly stinkin three rivers scum yeller, or he'll be just be a cowpie follerin some gal into a bathroom, know what I'm sayin?

    You just gotta see the beet in the future. Some can't do nothin but see the seed. The rest of us - we see the full growed beet. Now, you just gotta have a good seed to grow. You gotta have that qb that you figure will grow. Ain't no qb gonna grow into a right fine qb in the NFL, if'n he ain't got the vision to see the field, and at least enough character to stay on it.

End of story, fellers. Some of us see what he can be after he grows into an NFL qb; some can only see the seed. That's pretty much all thar is to it.

  

Are you sure you're not eating some other kind of seed cal? It's legal south of the Wyoming border now you know.

[tiamat63]

All I know is if you hand me a beet or a beet seed it's getting thrown the Shmuck back at you.    

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

Some yuppies never planted a seed and watched it grow into a beautiful plant. Why,you take a beet seed. It isn't pretty. Rolls around a bit crooked in yer hand.  Some yuppies, why, they be figurin' to figure that that beet seed ain't gonna amount to nothin. But you take that beet side, put it in some good dirt, a little water, a touch of fertilizer, and you just watch that little seed turn into somethin beautiful.

    Now, lookee here. You got yer gold beets, yer red beets, yer striped beets. You don't know by lookin what you can be agrowinwhen you draft a smart future star, and add a little great coachin, surround him with great fellow players, and he grows into a great qb. Now, he may be a red..skins qb. Or, he could be a gold qb. Now, he ain't never agonna be no sickly stinkin three rivers scum yeller, or he'll be just be a cowpie follerin some gal into a bathroom, know what I'm sayin?

    You just gotta see the beet in the future. Some can't do nothin but see the seed. The rest of us - we see the full growed beet. Now, you just gotta have a good seed to grow. You gotta have that qb that you figure will grow. Ain't no qb gonna grow into a right fine qb in the NFL, if'n he ain't got the vision to see the field, and at least enough character to stay on it.

End of story, fellers. Some of us see what he can be after he grows into an NFL qb; some can only see the seed. That's pretty much all thar is to it.

  

I don't like beets. Plus, some seeds never germinate

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Beets are garbage.

[The Gipper]

19 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

 

• On one throw during the full squad session Allen did something I've never seen a QB do... as he threw he bent at his wait to his left side. It was freaking weird. There was a little DL pressure which he sidestepped left. He reset well, but then inexplicably brought his frontfoot back and "in the bucket" to his left, and then bent to the left producing some kind of weird "over-the-top-3/4-sidearm" throw. The throw sailed high and behind an open WR running a 15-yd out. I'm not feeling a lot of "cool under pressure" in his game.

Sounds Weeden-ish.

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Beets are garbage.

I like beets. 

[Mark O]

10 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

    You just gotta see the beet in the future. Some can't do nothin but see the seed. The rest of us - we see the full growed beet. Now, you just gotta have a good seed to grow. You gotta have that qb that you figure will grow. Ain't no qb gonna grow into a right fine qb in the NFL, if'n he ain't got the vision to see the field, and at least enough character to stay on it.

End of story, fellers. Some of us see what he can be after he grows into an NFL qb; some can only see the seed. That's pretty much all thar is to it.

  

You don't take a seed (project QB) with the first overall pick in the draft.  That player needs to be a star from day one.   If we have someone better who can start for a few weeks, that's fine but that first overall pick better be ready to go quickly.

[The Gipper]

19 minutes ago, Mark O said:

You don't take a seed (project QB) with the first overall pick in the draft.  That player needs to be a star from day one.   If we have someone better who can start for a few weeks, that's fine but that first overall pick better be ready to go quickly.

DraftScouts.com.....which, for some reason Tour thinks is invalid...probably because they disagree with him somewhat, have   Allen rated as a late 3rd, early 4th round  talent.  The other 5.....Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, Jackson, Rudolph are all rated as 1st round or early 2d round talents.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospect-rankings/quarterbacks/

But, in their Mock...they do have Allen being taken 15th.

(Browns take Darnold #1,  Rosen #2 to Giants.....and they have Rudolph going #29 to the Steelers)

[Mark O]

3 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

DraftScouts.com.....which, for some reason Tour thinks is invalid...probably because they disagree with him somewhat, have   Allen rated as a late 3rd, early 4th round  talent.  The other 5.....Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, Jackson, Rudolph are all rated as 1st round or early 2d round talents.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospect-rankings/quarterbacks/

But, in their Mock...they do have Allen being taken 15th.

That's because to quote Brian Billick "need is a terrible evaluator of a quarterback".    A team that needs one will reach for a project like Allen.  Just like the Browns did with Weeden, Quinn, Manziel, etc etc etc.

[The Gipper]

Just now, Mark O said:

That's because to quote Brian Billick "need is a terrible evaluator of a quarterback".    A team that needs one will reach for a project like Allen.  Just like the Browns did with Weeden, Quinn, Manziel, etc etc etc.

And...in theory.....per that Draftscout report..they go along with what you say.  NONE or only 1 of those QBs is actually Top Ten Talent.  So....by their estimation, apparently....any QB taken above the 10 pick can likely be considered overdrafting.....for need.  Per them....we should be taking the likes of Chubb, Derwin James, Fitzpatrick, Roquon Smith...even Barkley...rather than a QB at either 1 or 4. 

[hoorta]

59 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

And...in theory.....per that Draftscout report..they go along with what you say.  NONE or only 1 of those QBs is actually Top Ten Talent.  So....by their estimation, apparently....any QB taken above the 10 pick can likely be considered overdrafting.....for need.  Per them....we should be taking the likes of Chubb, Derwin James, Fitzpatrick, Roquon Smith...even Barkley...rather than a QB at either 1 or 4. 

True Gip, the players mentioned may be better prospects at their positions than the QBs, but no position affects the game more than the QB. It's why they're always over drafted. I won't bother to look it up, but I'd bet both Trubisky and Mahomes would be considered huge reaches based on their Draftscout rankings last year.

[The Gipper]

19 minutes ago, hoorta said:

True Gip, the players mentioned may be better prospects at their positions than the QBs, but no position affects the game more than the QB. It's why they're always over drafted. I won't bother to look it up, but I'd bet both Trubisky and Mahomes would be considered huge reaches based on their Draftscout rankings last year.

Can't seem to find where he was as overall prospect....but MT was rated the #1 QB by them.

[Tour2ma]

1. Did cal just play the "hick card?"
2. And, h, Jackson Hole is one of the favorite places I've ever visited... absolutely gorgeous.

 

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

DraftScouts.com.....which, for some reason Tour thinks is invalid...probably because they disagree with him somewhat...

lol... makes a false comment about my view of DraftScout and then posts a link to CBS.

Try to keep up...

CBS has historically been "powered by DraftScout" (ring a bell?) apparently no longer is... at least it's not to this point.

For the record and comparison here is a link to the DraftScout "Top 750" where QBs hold two of the top three spots and three of the top eight.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/top750.php?draftyear=2018&sortby=rateall&order=ASC

Do the lists look to be interchangeable? Which more closer resembles the other major lists that have been published?

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

And...in theory.....per that Draftscout report..they go along with what you say.  NONE or only 1 of those QBs is actually Top Ten Talent.  So....by their estimation, apparently....any QB taken above the 10 pick can likely be considered overdrafting.....for need.  Per them....we should be taking the likes of Chubb, Derwin James, Fitzpatrick, Roquon Smith...even Barkley...rather than a QB at either 1 or 4. 

Ignorant is the only word for this post. Rankings... even when attributed to the correct source... are never as rigid as 1-2-3. Teams cluster players of similar talent levels and then assuming there are no "red flags" they let need, fit, and positional importance break ties.

Only question is how willful is the ignorance on display.

[tiamat63]

Saw the 7 on 7 INT and it was....  not good.      The trend with Allen is that when he misses (and he does so quite often) he misses high.       That just gives far too many opportunities for world class athletes to get their hands on the ball.