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Josh Allen mechanics are very good.

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6 minutes ago, jrb12711 said:

Every reputable report out there is that Allen is struggling with accuracy in simple scrimmage throws over and over again. As was noted, accuracy is something that rarely if ever gets better.

We literally sat through an entire season of a strong-armed, tall QB who never learned to throw the ball accurately. How anyone can want to do that again, yet alone with a high first round pick, is unbelievable. 

   That is only partly true. The first two I read were saying he was throwing several throws very accurately. He isn't consistent in that regard. If he can correct that, you have a star NFL qb in the making.

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1 minute ago, Mark O said:

Accuracy is kind of important for a QB is it not?   Since you say a coach should be able to teach it, show us one example of a mid 50% passer in college who became more accurate in the NFL. 

I'm willing to bet it's never happened.

no idea. Long term habits aren't easy to break, I'm sure.  But read the excerpt about Mariotta I posted earlier. He had a problem with accuracy, too. That's a question - is it forever, or does a qb just adapt to more accurate throwing, given the athletic ability to do so?

 

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23 minutes ago, hoorta said:

So now you have to cherry pick Wentz's worst games to try and score points? Carson was never worse then 62% for a year passing at ND State.     https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/carson-wentz-1.html

Gipper, it's tough to accurately quote when you reply and put comments inside a post that you're replying to....   

Well...I do that because I am making a specific reply to that particular specific point....just as I am doing here to your point.

Usain Bolt QB? Nah- but we should give him a look at WR though.  :)  

And also here.....trying to put a track guy into a WR role has been done...with mixed results.  Bullet Bob Hayes became a HOF WR.   Renaldo Neamiah...not so much.   But the question about Hayes is:  was he a track guy playing football....or a football guy playing track?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

no idea. Long term habits aren't easy to break, I'm sure.  But read the excerpt about Mariotta I posted earlier. He had a problem with accuracy, too. That's a question - is it forever, or does a qb just adapt to more accurate throwing, given the athletic ability to do so?

 

Face it....every report out there is saying this guy is sucking swamp water.  I am neither for or against Allen per se.   I am against taking the next version of Brandon Weeden or DeShone Kizer...and from all reports...he seems to be that.   Unfortunate....but apparently true.

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2 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

no idea. Long term habits aren't easy to break, I'm sure.  But read the excerpt about Mariotta I posted earlier. He had a problem with accuracy, too. That's a question - is it forever, or does a qb just adapt to more accurate throwing, given the athletic ability to do so?

 

In recent history, no...they don't get better.  Inaccuracy in college translates to even more inaccuracy in the NFL.  Look no further than Kizer last year. 

Anyone but Allen. 

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14 minutes ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Jesus Christ, you’re scraping the bottom of the Shmucking barrel here aren’t you

Explain.

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5 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

And then on his next pass, Allen had Hamilton again on a crossing route. Overthrew by a couple yards.

And there it is... the inconsistency. Mayock labelled it as the question Allen has to answer this week along with... leadership.... or at least the aspect around inspiring a team and drawing them to him.

On the former Mayock laid the blame literally at Allen's feet. I'm not sure it's that simple.

On the latter Savage and the organizing committee did Allen no favors by putting him in the same QB group with Mayfield, who players are likely to gravitate towards.

 

Overall I thought Mayfield was actually impressive. In part due to the fact that he showed up in Mobile an hour before the North took the field. He did not have the benefit of a day of classroom prep the other QBs had... and it did not show. The Bronco staff had emailed Baker the playbook and he'd clearly studied and absorbed it before he arrived.

Otherwise on the field Mayfield did start slow. I thought Mayock summed it up well in saying that at the outset it seemed he was trying to match Allen's velocity. Then Baker settled down, played his game and separated himself from every other QB on Day One.

That's how I saw it as well.

But today is Day Two... we shall see.

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If Allen is more of a project, etc, so be it. The Browns will know. If Allen doesn't do well in the senior bowl, that's going to clinch it.

But if the lights go on on his accuracy in the next few days and the game, then the choice will be agonizing for some.

I don't see Mayfield's red flags to be a big deal...necessarily - don't seem to be a trend in his life. He is a playmaker. and comparing him to jm, is just really bogus.

Mayfield certain has enough arm, and bigtime love for the game, leadership, etc. This draft is going to be crazy.

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4 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Maybe it is a result of him just being bad at that skill.....the most important skill of being an NFL QB.   So, maybe it is the result of him being not good.

Accuracy is not a "skill". It's an output of a combination of skills.

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

a few you have cherry picked Allen's worst three games. See, that is where the hell I got the idea.

Nice try... except that pulling his stats vs. Power 5 schools is not "cherry-picking"... it's a natural subset.

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1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

no idea. Long term habits aren't easy to break, I'm sure.  But read the excerpt about Mariotta I posted earlier. He had a problem with accuracy, too. That's a question - is it forever, or does a qb just adapt to more accurate throwing, given the athletic ability to do so?

Also not sure where your Mariota discussion comes from. Mariota's completion percentages at Oregon were 68.5, 63.5 and 68.3%. And in the NFL he's a low 60's QB...

Where does a college guy in the 50's end up?

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4 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

  I understand. However, the inaccuracy - is that a result of a serious lack of athleticism/coordination? Or, a lack of development, and can be professionally coached? I agree that a qb that is inaccurate in college because of a lack of athleticism will be inaccurate in the pros, sure.

   I just wonder if a guy who could be an outstanding athlete , which Allen is, could develop

 

Cal, don't let media reports or hype tapes cover your own eyes. Many read Allen comes from a pro style under center school with the same Wentz Body. Yes Josh has a cannon, but continue watching Allen's delivery..nothing has changed, His feet, hips & eyes are a mess in his delivery. Messing with his release point thinking his "gun speed" can catch-it-up. Count how many of Josh's misses go HIGH, or over thrown on touch passes.. Elway could hire John Denver to sing Rocky Mountain High,Than Styx for some "Come Sail Away with me" at halftime..long way till draft day remain, but short days of real football remain..At #1 or #4 Dorsey's grabbing a QB..I gave it a re-try.. but at this point am passing the hype train of Josh Allen growing into a large downhill snowball by Combine.. 

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1 hour ago, Mark O said:

Accuracy is kind of important for a QB is it not?   Since you say a coach should be able to teach it, show us one example of a mid 50% passer in college who became more accurate in the NFL. 

I'm willing to bet it's never happened.

Brett Favre (52%) and Matt Ryan (56%)

But those are exceptions to the rule

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48 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Accuracy is not a "skill". It's an output of a combination of skills.

Whatever....let's call it a trait.   Point is...an NFL QB has to be accurate....and apparently this kid ain't.  But, as we know from the example of Cody Kessler...just being accurate  is also not all there is. 

Nice try... except that pulling his stats vs. Power 5 schools is not "cherry-picking"... it's a natural subset.

One other aspect of this is:   Apparently the kid was not seen by college recruiters to be all that and a bag of chips.  Why wasn't he recruited to attend a P5 school. 

 

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28 minutes ago, LionOfBuddha said:

Brett Favre (52%) and Matt Ryan (56%)

But those are exceptions to the rule

Matt Ryan was 60% at BC. https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/matt-ryan-1.html

And then there was Brett...

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57 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Where does a college guy in the 50's end up?

Playing H-Back or WR. 

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6 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

   That is only partly true. The first two I read were saying he was throwing several throws very accurately. He isn't consistent in that regard. If he can correct that, you have a star NFL qb in the making.

Cal, you are now being selectively blind about Allen. You've dug in your heels despite a growing pile of evidence. In another thread- I mentioned to Tour my current draft pecking order is subject to revision. I might even change my mind about Allen- though that's highly doubtful at this point. You can't just say a couple great throws without looking at bad passes that are 5'-10' over a receivers head- and that with no pass rush to speak of. Heck, no QB throws a perfect ball every time, not even an extremely accurate guy like Baker. It's the ratio of accurate to inaccurate that separates the great qbs from the lousy ones. A rocket arm is nice to have, but it's only a part of the equation. In the AFC Championship game I saw Brady loft up a few Kessler-esque floaters, but they were right where only his receiver had a play on the ball. 

 If, if, if. History says the odds of that happening are against Allen. Them's the cold hard facts Jack. Certainly not worth the risk of using a top 5 draft pick to find out. I've said it before- IF Allen had Mayfield's accuracy- we wouldn't be having this discussion. And IF Mayfield was 6'4" we wouldn't be having it either. 

As me and Mark have said- we already have Allen on the roster, his name is Deshone Kizer- so what in the hell do you see in Allen that's so different from Deshone? MHO is you can't correct a lifetime of mechanical sloppiness (paraphrasing Mike Mayrock) in the 90 or so days before the draft. 

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4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Also not sure where your Mariota discussion comes from. Mariota's completion percentages at Oregon were 68.5, 63.5 and 68.3%. And in the NFL he's a low 60's QB...

Where does a college guy in the 50's end up?

In the NFL? On the bench as a backup, or out of the league in a year or two....   

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4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Also not sure where your Mariota discussion comes from. Mariota's completion percentages at Oregon were 68.5, 63.5 and 68.3%. And in the NFL he's a low 60's QB...

Where does a college guy in the 50's end up?

He made up Mariota's numbers to fit his argument. 

Where does a college guy in the 50's end up?   Out of the league in a few short years.

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5 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Also not sure where your Mariota discussion comes from. Mariota's completion percentages at Oregon were 68.5, 63.5 and 68.3%. And in the NFL he's a low 60's QB...

Where does a college guy in the 50's end up?

  read the exerpt from the mariota draft profile I posted. I didn't write it.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/marcus-mariota?id=2552466

Do you know that Jeff Lockie, the back up qb had 75 percent completion rate?

seriously.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/oregon/2014.html

It's their offense that lends itself to high completion numbers.

 

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As me and Mark have said- we already have Allen on the roster, his name is Deshone Kizer- so what in the hell do you see in Allen that's so different from Deshone? hoorta

********************************************

    Baloney. Kizer was benched at ND while trying to run a non-pro style offense.

Allen was a huge success with far, far, far less talent around him than Kizer had.

Allen is just as much a hero at Wyoming as Wentz was at North Dakota. Wentz was far more polished, ya.

You just love you some rosen because he fits your politics, and you can't let go of that.

 

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2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

As me and Mark have said- we already have Allen on the roster, his name is Deshone Kizer- so what in the hell do you see in Allen that's so different from Deshone? hoorta

********************************************

  1)  Baloney. Kizer was benched at ND while trying to run a non-pro style offense.

2) Allen was a huge success with far, far, far less talent around him than Kizer had.

3) Allen is just as much a hero at Wyoming as Wentz was at North Dakota. Wentz was far more polished, ya.

4) You just love you some rosen because he fits your politics, and you can't let go of that.

1) I'll grant you that one- but Kelly had potentially better options at QB. Wyoming's backup was? Kizer got a scholarship at a top FBS School out of the gate, Allen was  a JUCO transfer. So tell me Cal, if running a pro style offense matters that much to NFL talent evaluators, How many of the current top 10 QB prospects ran one? Allen and? Nobody? Hmmmmm?  

2) Honorable Mention Mountain West- damn impressive. NOT. It's apples to apples Cal. If Allen was playing with inferior talent- he was playing against inferior talent most of the time too. He should have had absolutely dominating stats- and he didn't. 

3) Sure- Josh is a hero in Wyoming, because NFL level talent shows up at Laramie once in a blue moon. Ohio State or Alabama churn out more top NFL talent in one year than Wyoming does in 20 or 30. 

4) Where did you ever get that silly idea? Get it through your thick head- I currently have Rosen third on my board (injury concerns), ahead of Allen sure- because talent Trumps (pun intended) attitude. Politics has nothing to do with my opinion of Rosen- but it just might color yours. Need to see my RNC card (loyal member since 2002), goober? I'll try to leave politics out of this Cal- but you're living in some alternate reality if you don't think there's legions of hard core Republicans who think Trump is a complete a-hole. 

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3 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

 http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/marcus-mariota?id=2552466

Do you know that Jeff Lockie, the back up qb had 75 percent completion rate? seriously.

 

Nice try- on 28 passing attempts- Landry Jones completed 82% of his passes for the Steelers last year too. On the same number of attempts. Small sample size skews results.  You throw one pass for a touchdown, you get a perfect QBR. 

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1 minute ago, hoorta said:

Nice try- on 28 passing attempts- and Landry Jones completed 82% of his passes for the Steelers last year too. on the same number of attempts. Small sample size skews results. 

That's what happens when you can't understand the concept of context. 

 

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5 hours ago, hoorta said:

I'll try to leave politics out of this Cal- but you're living in some alternate reality if you don't think there's legions of hard core Republicans who think Trump is a complete a-hole. 

Liberal Obamaoite. ;)

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If Kizer can correct his accuracy problems, he's bound for Canton.

What's that? He can't? I, for one, am shocked.

Let's repeat the process with a QB who found a way to be less accurate than Kizer in college! [Kizer 59% as a senior, 63% as a junior]

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I was just listening to Browns Daily this morning, and Nathan Zegura asked Senior Staff Writer Andrew Gribble a thoughtful question.  He said, "Gribbs...last year the Browns drafted a guy who was built very similarly to Josh Allen.  A guy who struggled with accuracy, someone who can really wow people with some of his throws, and someone who has the kind of size many people want in a QB.  What separates Josh Allen from Deshone Kizer, and why would someone draft Allen 50 spots higher than Kizer and perhaps #1 overall?"

Interestingly enough, Gribble said he didn't have an answer.  Now he backed out by saying he still needs more time to evaluate Allen, and also said that somebody who knows much more about QB's would have to answer that, but he basically couldn't provide an answer on what separates Josh Allen from Deshone Kizer.  Additionally, Gribble said that Allen has done NOTHING to calm any fears regarding accuracy, and Allen has definitely had the most "where is THAT ball going?" throws of the Senior Bowl so far.  And while it's still extremely early, he even said he'd compare Allen a little bit to "Major League" where some of Allen's throws were "Juuuuuuuust a bit outside!  Tried the corner and missed...."

Josh Allen played in the Mountain West, and his numbers have already been brought up enough.  To put it bluntly, they weren't good...at all.  At this very early juncture of the evaluation process, I want nothing to do with him.  This can obviously change as we get more information, I see some breakdowns of Allen's games, and I see the other candidates play more, but if you're the Browns, and you haven't had a good QB in almost 2 decades, why on EARTH would you want to take a risk on a guy who played in the Mountain West that struggles to throw the ball where he wants to?

People want to talk like Allen is in play for the #1 pick, and I think that's absolutely CRAZY.  I don't even have him above Lamar Jackson.  That being said, I just heard an interesting anecdote on Browns Daily (taped from 1/24).  The same unnamed "Senior NFL Executive" who said the Browns should take Carson Wentz and "they'd be set for over a decade" two years ago, also just said that "Josh Allen is #1 and it's not even close."  I'm looking forward to studying Josh Allen more and really delving into some of his actual games to make my own opinion.  Right now, I don't have him very high at all, but it's fascinating to hear that reputable NFL talent evaluators have him #1, and it HAS to go beyond just being big and having a huge arm.  Has anybody REALLY broken this guy down?  If you have, what do you see?  I'm talking about evaluating beyone the paltry stats.  

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11 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

As me and Mark have said- we already have Allen on the roster, his name is Deshone Kizer- so what in the hell do you see in Allen that's so different from Deshone? hoorta

********************************************

    Baloney. Kizer was benched at ND while trying to run a non-pro style offense.

Allen was a huge success with far, far, far less talent around him than Kizer had.

Allen is just as much a hero at Wyoming as Wentz was at North Dakota. Wentz was far more polished, ya.

You just love you some rosen because he fits your politics, and you can't let go of that.

 

1.  Kizer is just as inaccurate a QB as Allen.  The stats prove that out if you would just choose to read them.

2. Huge success??  seriously?  Mountain West honorable mention is huge success??  Get the fuck out of here.  

3. Of course he was.  And Donell Pumphrey is a hero at San Diego State for the same reason.  SDSU is the only team in SD so having a star player makes him a hero regardless of how talented he actually is.

4. I am unaware of Rosen's politics.  I prefer Mayfield or Darnold (preferably a FA over both of them) over Rosen.   I am in anyone but Allen camp.   We don't need another great athlete inaccurate QB on the roster, we already have one. 

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12 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

As me and Mark have said- we already have Allen on the roster, his name is Deshone Kizer- so what in the hell do you see in Allen that's so different from Deshone? hoorta

********************************************

    Baloney. Kizer was benched at ND while trying to run a non-pro style offense.

Allen was a huge success with far, far, far less talent around him than Kizer had.

Allen is just as much a hero at Wyoming as Wentz was at North Dakota. Wentz was far more polished, ya.

You just love you some rosen because he fits your politics, and you can't let go of that.

 

If Allen had played at a school with the level of talent and recruiting that ND has.....he may in fact have been benched, as was Kizer.

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