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On 1/4/2018 at 6:38 AM, jiggins7919 said:

You're definitely not wrong. Like I've said before, I'm not stupid...I know how difficult the sell is, and we're really banking on the size of the checkbook AND Hue Jackson's reputation as somebody people want to play for. Regardless of his record, Hue is still regarded highly in the NFL. It's the reason we heard rumors about him going back to Cincy, and it's the primary reason we are bringing him back. 

Also consider this:  Several of the teams we played against made comments like, "This team is almost there" and "They're going to surprise some people very soon". We didn't have the reputation as being a team you just walked in a ran out of the stadium. We may have lost every game, but we made just about everyone work for it. We're closer than you think. Really, no QB wants to come to a place without an OL or weapons. We have the OL pretty much in place, but we need weapons. If we KNEW Gordon was coming back, it'd be a MUCH easier sell to QBs. They know how much easier the game becomes with him in it. Toss in Duke, Njoku, Devalve, Corey, and you might have something. 

I hope so.  Before we lost the #1 rated DE against the run via PFF (Ogbah), Meder and Collins while Shelton and Garrett (missed time and played through injuries) - we were vastly improved against the run particularly in the front 7.  FWIW, Ogbah was also leading us in sacks (with 5) while it seemed like he also led us in causing fumbles prior to him going on IR.  The front 7 is a huge area of promise especially against the run if we get Garrett, Ogbah, Meder and Collins back healthier.  Even though we lined up our Safeties in another time zone which had people worrying about how our MLB was handling both inside hook zones with unrealistic zone transition deep - Schobert drastically improved against the run.  He's a Pro Bowl alternate because of it.

Unfortunately, it's a passing era.  The 31 year old McCourty played well until he played on an injured ankle. That was a better pickup than I thought but he will be 32 years old this year. The FO overrated the crap out of Jamar Taylor while our 4th round pick Howard Wilson got injured and never saw the field.  Boddy-Calhoun seems reliable when called upon.  Needless to say we need help and better depth at this position.  The Safety positions also lack experience, consistency and depth while the back end alignments and schemes seemed like an extended head scratcher.  That said, Gregg Williams has coached up some Pro Bowl Safeties like Blaine Bishop (TN), Malcolm Jenkins (NO), Sean Taylor (Wash) so I'm guessing he knows what he's doing with the personnel at hand.  He's ranked in the top 10 5 times for pts allowed and 6 times for yardage (inclusive of two #1 rankings pts vrs and two #2 rankings yds).  Secondary is a HUGE need if we ever want to see Gregg Williams back on this level.

Offensively, our WR Corps is a train wreck. As happy as we were to see Josh Gordon the last 5 games - this group hasn't competed up to snuff.  Even worse, neither has the QB position.  We still don't have a dual purpose TE above ho-hum while we hope Njoku can establish more consistency in his limited role.

With the exception of Duke Johnson's invaluable productivity (part time), our gridiron chess table still looks like were set up to attack exclusively with pawns until our FO changes this. Let's hope Dorsey can bring us the magic especially with the 5 picks in the first 2 rounds he's inheriting.  We shall see...

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On 1/3/2018 at 10:44 PM, calfoxwc said:

There are no counter arguments about his character/personality.

Missed this earlier...

There have been plenty of counter arguments, counter accounts laid out by myself and others.

This is typical of all your arguments. When reports are presented that don't fit your narrative, you dismiss them out of hand while all support of your conclusion is unchallenged.

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6 hours ago, Flugel said:

This could be wrong but I have a bad feeling Rosen is going to be the football version of Yao Ming in the fragility sense of "made in China stayed on sideline."  Or, with the concussion inventory already rivaling that of Evan Moore - how close is he to the point of no return?   Before he had a bruised back and a sore knee sidelining him this season - he had a shoulder injury and multiple concussions that sidelined him prior  to that.

The kid missed 7 games in three years. Six were attributable to the shoulder injury. So every other "concern" you voice contributed a grand total of one missed game.

Not saying there is zero question, but I can't medically DQ him. And his talent level far outweighs any medical concerns.

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Got a chuckle out of this tweet...

Chris FedorVerified account @ChrisFedor

My sources tell me #Browns Hue Jackson's favorite QB in the draft is whichever one looks the best in the early 2018 NFL season, so he can then take credit for liking that guy after the fact...

5:19 PM - 3 Jan 2018
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16 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

The kid missed 7 games in three years. Six were attributable to the shoulder injury. So every other "concern" you voice contributed a grand total of one missed game.

Not saying there is zero question, but I can't medically DQ him. And his talent level far outweighs any medical concerns.

If this was any place but Cleveland - you might have reeled me in Tour.

Let's keep in mind missed games doesn't tell us how many times he couldn't finish starts.  For example, he left a nationally televised night game early vrs Cal for a bruised back.  And then there's the multiple concussions issue I've read about more than once leading me to believe he's left many of those early too.  So, it's not just missing starts for the shoulder or a sore knee.  Even if everything under the neck is all healed up, Rosen would show up to Cleveland/AFC North with multiple concussions on his resume.

I already agreed his talent is tempting (just like DeShaun Watson's talent was).  Watson was 1 of my favorite 2 QBs last draft; but his style of play increasing risk of injury was the main reason I never had him on my wish list at #1 or #12.  Well, he went on IR really early in his rookie year.  Teddy B was another prospect with intriguing talent that many scouts worried about staying healthy with his frame. Just like Watson, he got hurt in a non contact practice drill a few years ago (hasn't played since).  So what trumped talent both times?  Injury.  

Not only does a QB have to be right for Cleveland - but Cleveland has to be right for a QB.  There's a t-shirt with a ton of names on it reminding us of this all the time. Let's hope this gets better. 

 

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So who Flugel is the right QB for Cleveland out of this draft?

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50 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

So who Flugel is the right QB for Cleveland out of this draft?

Maybe they could draft 3 or 4 of them and have one hell of a rookie quarterback tryout competition. 

No seriously now who knows? Will their only somewhat talent at WR Flash Gordon stay clean? Will they draft the best WR in the draft (my choice at #1 or 4)? Will former #1 WR pick Rock Coleman find Jesus or learn how to look the ball into his hands? Will the BROWNS draft the best RB in the draft to help out? Will Joe Thomas officially retire? If so who will replace him? Will the BROWNS have an A or A+ draft? 

Answer these questions and maybe we'll have a clue who might be quarterback #26 or is it #28 or #30 best fit savior for the BROWNS.......yeah I'm sure we know that in January or April before the next #1 pick is even announced.  Welcome to Cleveland Browns football!

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1 minute ago, Dutch Oven said:

So who Flugel is the right QB for Cleveland out of this draft?

That was my question to you guys and I've enjoyed the posts and discussion in here from yuz all. As I mentioned - I don't think we need to hurry to crown 1 guy king just yet.  I also said all guys have flaws before listing my 3 faves at this time in random order are: Mayfield, Darnold and Rudolph. 

Something got me thinking very recently.  Uh-oh!  Anyway, the NFL channel scrolled that Cam Newton has either fumbled, been sacked or intercepted on 60 plays this year.  That said, he's also sported the talent to overcome all that to the extent his team will be playing in the post season again this year.  And after coming off a surgery to his throwing arm/shoulder this off season, he's missed his go-to guy (TE Greg Olson) most of the year while the running game has been inconsistent.  So what has Carolina done or had in place to help him?  They had a talent like Kelvin Benjamin up until they traded him to Buffalo near the trade deadline. They drafted McCaffery who catches a lot of short passes in lieu of handing off. They also drafted Curtis Samuel in round 2. They play good defense and get turnovers for him.  And now they have Olson back. 

I'm getting sick of seeing an unacceptable WR corps the last 2 years, which was a BIG reason I also said Cleveland needs to be right for a QB.  If we want an accurate QB that can quick trigger a defense - we have to raise the bar on the perimeter to make such a thing possible.  It wasn't just young QBs eating the football in the pocket holding onto it too long the last 2-3 years.  WRs aren't always running the right route or a good enough route.  To compound that, we've also had accuracy issues from QB or timing issues of getting the ball on time creating trust issues between QB and WRs.  Just when we think we don't have any more room for error - we get guys dropping passes.  And then there's been sacks and/or injuries to QBs in the last 3 seasons.  We HAVE to make this a lot more QB friendly if we ever want to recruit decent WR help in FA - plus we have to draft better WRs.  The only elite WR talent we drafted required the supplemental draft and the patience of a bunch of suspensions that followed that.  Right now, I don't see the type of WR talent that can accommodate the quick trigger accuracy we need in order to keep a QB healthy and defenses on their heels.

Mayfield - If anyone thinks he's a Manziel-esque running man - I encourage you to compare the drastic difference in their rushing stats their final 2 years of college ball and the truth will set you free.  Heading into the double OT loss with 48 points - what's not to like about a completion percentage over 70% and 41 TDs to 5 INTs?  What's not to like about a guy who can throw people open or complete a pass to a guy that's covered reasonably well?  I don't get the sense he's nearly as programmed to take off and scramble as soon as the first read is taken away from him like Lamar Jackson. My biggest concerns?   His height and not everyone challenged his ability to get rid of the ball quickly except UGA who forced an INT on 1 of those occasions.  That said, beating Ohio State at Columbus should count if people are going to emphasize Darnold couldn't beat them.  My biggest concerns if he came here?  The extreme drop-off in surrounding help where it is needed most.  He comes from a situation where his team was better than most of his opponents so Cleveland could be a culture shock of feeling like he got demoted to Oklahoma's junior varsity team.

Darnold - I like that he's shown me he can overcome some early adversity in both of his Pac 12 Championship seasons.  If anyone watched him beating the Big 10 Champions in the Bowl Game last year - it was a powerful enough impression to make you forgive some of this year's sins behind Center.  Not to mention, he threw 31 TDs to just 9 INTs as a freshman.  Just like the NFL Channel scrolling about Cam Newton's sacks, fumbles and INTs on 60 plays this year - guess who led his team into the post season game in a similar kind of year?   If some of his best passes were caught or not fumbled vrs OSU plus a little more luck with the FG - that's a much closer game with him not feeling like Darnold Duck.  I didn't see that problem when JuJu Smith was on the other side of formation.  Love his size and accuracy.  My biggest concerns?  Still gotta clean up that fumbling, which has kept me from prematurely crowning him Gran Poobah.  My biggest concerns if he came here?  Hue's going to over-diaper the offense into park again; and the poor kid going to feel like Nurse Ratchid is our OC and OB coach.  We also gotta raise the bar significantly on the perimeter.

Mason Rudolph - He's done everything extremely well the last 3 years inclusive of 3 consecutive 10 win seasons.  His TD:INT ratios went from 21-9 to 28:4 to 37:9 while his comp % slow climbed or crawled from 62.3 to 63.4 to 65.  He's got an ideal height of 6'5".  I've seen him play and progress every single year. He looks like an ideal prospect for the right team.   Concerns?  I still don't know if he can be the quick trigger accurate guy because I'm not sure there's been a lot of opponents that have demanded that from him.  This isn't just exclusive to the Big 12 any more (like it used to be).   My biggest concerns if he came here? Here I go again with - are we the right team?  A QB without a WR Corps is a like a day with sunshine...  

Just as important as the QB we choose - is the play makers we equip him with. As "well duh" as that sounds - we're not 4-49 in our last 53 games by accident. 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Flugel said:

And then there's the multiple concussions issue I've read about more than once leading me to believe he's left many of those early too.

"Leading you to believe..." Hard to argue with hard data like that. ;)

I was right there with you on Teddy and I had misgivings about Watson. Just not a concern I share to your level, Flugs, in Josh's case.

.

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57 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

"Leading you to believe..." Hard to argue with hard data like that. ;)

:lol: Especially when I'm only 1 cup of coffee shy of my wife changing the locks on me...

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On 1/6/2018 at 1:51 PM, Tour2ma said:

Missed this earlier...

There have been plenty of counter arguments, counter accounts laid out by myself and others.

This is typical of all your arguments. When reports are presented that don't fit your narrative, you dismiss them out of hand 

To be fair, that's no different than what the Rosen fans are doing....

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22 hours ago, wargograw said:

To be fair, that's no different than what the Rosen fans are doing....

Disagree... at least in my case.

I believe Dilfer's account of young Josh as a difficult attendee of his camp. I also believe Trent's account of a "different" Rosen returning as an instructor. Why? Because they are quotes of a direct observer.

General babble by an unnamed scout here or a GM there? I give less weight. Especially when there are quotes by named teammates and coaches that refute them.

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1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Disagree... at least in my case.

I believe Dilfer's account of young Josh as a difficult attendee of his camp. I also believe Trent's account of a "different" Rosen returning as an instructor. Why? Because they are quotes of a direct observer.

General babble by an unnamed scout here or a GM there? I give less weight. Especially when there are quotes by named teammates and coaches that refute them.

 

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9 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Disagree... at least in my case.

I believe Dilfer's account of young Josh as a difficult attendee of his camp. I also believe Trent's account of a "different" Rosen returning as an instructor. Why? Because they are quotes of a direct observer.

General babble by an unnamed scout here or a GM there? I give less weight. Especially when there are quotes by named teammates and coaches that refute them.

The guys who knew Johnny best would take a bullet for him and speak of his character. Sometimes it takes a neutral observer.

I put about as much stock in Dilfer's account as I do in Gruden pimping every single kid that comes to his QB show.

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On 1/6/2018 at 10:13 AM, Flugel said:

Offensively, our WR Corps is a train wreck. As happy as we were to see Josh Gordon the last 5 games - this group hasn't competed up to snuff.  Even worse, neither has the QB position.  We still don't have a dual purpose TE above ho-hum while we hope Njoku can establish more consistency in his limited role.

Let's hope Dorsey can bring us the magic especially with the 5 picks in the first 2 rounds he's inheriting.  We shall see...

Interesting take by Grossi on Red Zone tonight Tom. Said it wouldn't be out of the question for Dorsey to cut Coleman. He really hasn't done much in two seasons. 56 receptions, 718 yards, 5 TDs. MHO, he starts playing like a first round pick next year, or he's gone. 

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5 hours ago, hoorta said:

Interesting take by Grossi on Red Zone tonight Tom. Said it wouldn't be out of the question for Dorsey to cut Coleman. He really hasn't done much in two seasons. 56 receptions, 718 yards, 5 TDs. MHO, he starts playing like a first round pick next year, or he's gone. 

Too many injuries and lost game/practice time to cut him yet. But I agree if he does not turn in an adequate WR showing over the course of an injury free year, I'd at least try to trade him for a draft choice.

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11 hours ago, wargograw said:

I put about as much stock in Dilfer's account...

The thing in Dilfer's case is he had two distinctly different accounts.

 

Thanks for adding to the conversation, cal... in typical fashion.

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1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

The thing in Dilfer's case is he had two distinctly different accounts.

Thanks for adding to the conversation, cal... in typical fashion.

You just don't get it Tour. Dilfer was a genius when he didn't like him and an idiot when he did. So what's the problem?:P

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On 1/9/2018 at 11:51 AM, Tour2ma said:

The thing in Dilfer's case is he had two distinctly different accounts.

 

Thanks for adding to the conversation, cal... in typical fashion.

Quote the other part of my post.

Dilfer could have easily just thought the kid's attitude meant he wouldn't pan out but saw the talent there. And now that Rosen's gonna be 1 overall he wants to be able to say he endorsed the kid. Everyone loves a winner.

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5 hours ago, wargograw said:

Quote the other part of my post.

Dilfer could have easily just thought the kid's attitude meant he wouldn't pan out but saw the talent there. And now that Rosen's gonna be 1 overall he wants to be able to say he endorsed the kid. Everyone loves a winner.

Does Dilfer have a history of doing that?

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At the one will be Rosen and only Rosen -- He simply didn't say that he didn't want to be a Brown. That's a flat-out lie. If you think he said that..... Look for a link showing a quote from Rosen stating precisely that.  You won't find it, because it didn't happen. Yes, everyone is getting it wrong -- either out of maliciousness or laziness.  I don't differentiate between the two because they lead to the same place.   To be clear:  Show quotes from Rosen -- not text from a reporter who is asserting he said something.

[Ah, sociopathic gossip attacks.. It's the burn book/fake calls from Planned Parenthood techniques from Mean Girls played out on a larger scale]

Rather, that became the narrative because he gave a response that wasn't generic.

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On 1/9/2018 at 12:51 PM, Tour2ma said:

The thing in Dilfer's case is he had two distinctly different accounts.

 

Thanks for adding to the conversation, cal... in typical fashion.

    boy, you sure give yourself a giant wedgie whenver anyone disagrees with you. Dilfer's two appraisals ...the first, I take it as how I see rosen, and how a LOT of experts see rosen. It's how a lot of women on the UCLA campus

see Rosen. He SAID as much.  Now, Dilfer has a different account- I see that as:

1. That wasn't even me that you are aguing with, meathead. That was Warpograw's quote you were "responding to"

On 1/9/2018 at 1:14 AM, wargograw said:

I put about as much stock in Dilfer's account...

The thing in Dilfer's case is he had two distinctly different accounts.Thanks for adding to the conversation, cal... in typical fashion. tour

2. Not wanting to trash the kid's draft position

3. Rosen surely knows he had better at least ACT like he isn't a jackwagon coming up on draft time. Oh, REALLY NOW? You don't get that?

4. I'm sure Rosen has been coached to act more like a well-adjusted good human being, at least until after he is drafted and signs his first contract.

5. Go hump rosen's poster, I don't care. I don't like the person he is. Jimmy Claussen comes to mind every time.

6. But thanks for going back to playing arrogrant football "god" again, which used to be your typical Tour fashion.

7. Have a nice day.

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On 1/6/2018 at 2:51 PM, Tour2ma said:

Missed this earlier...

There have been plenty of counter arguments, counter accounts laid out by myself and others.

This is typical of all your arguments. When reports are presented that don't fit your narrative, you dismiss them out of hand while all support of your conclusion is unchallenged.

Go back and READ, Tour. I was talking about Darnold. There have been no counter arguments about DARNOLD's character/personality.I said Darnold. Then you went off to "expert but can't read well" land again.

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18 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Does Dilfer have a history of doing that?

No idea.

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On 1/9/2018 at 2:03 AM, hoorta said:

Interesting take by Grossi on Red Zone tonight Tom. Said it wouldn't be out of the question for Dorsey to cut Coleman. He really hasn't done much in two seasons. 56 receptions, 718 yards, 5 TDs. MHO, he starts playing like a first round pick next year, or he's gone. 

Yeah, I've never seen a WR conquer the dropsies unfortunately.  When I saw Biletnikoff Award winner with 20 TDs in 1 season - I thought "oh yeah, we definitely have room for that."  I never thought that room would be the bathroom after someone took a smelly dump. 

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