Dorsey Hired

[jiggins7919]

That's one theory, lol. I honestly thought Peppers would blitz more, especially with how Gregg likes to send heat. I'm not even sure how many times Peppers has blitzed this year...run blitz or otherwise. I thought Peppers was a good tackler and somebody who could sniff out screens and stuff? Am I wrong or are we just using him solely as a deep wtf safety? Regardless, it doesn't appear that Peppers will play this game, so we're going to get a look at the other rookie. 

[Tour2ma]

21 hours ago, hoorta said:

I'll posit this one Tour.

1. We don't know (but Haslam sure does) just how much of a "consensus" there really was.
2. If Hue was constantly getting shot down and overruled by Sashi- when with 20\20 hindsight his suggestions on player acquisitions were dead on, and Sashi and DePo's were crap, draw your own conclusion.
3. What if: Hue was Ok with both Wentz and Watson (remember the supposed phone call to Deshawn?) and to top it off got Kizer (who he probably didn't want) that screams "analytics pick" rammed down his throat, well- I'd probably like a tad more input too. Why do I think that's the case?
4. Read between the lines in Jimmy's goodbye to Sashi- thanks for all the picks, I don't trust you to make them.
5. So much for consensus- Sashi had the final say. Apparently he was asked if it was OK to bring in a Dorsey type to help in that regard, and it was like nope, everything is just hunky-dory. We're going to nail the 2018 draft.
6. That and (care to bet it wasn't deliberately botched) McCarron deal sealed Sashi's fate.
7. BTW DePo's all time stupid comment about Wentz not being a top 20 qb proves when push came to shove who was making the picks.  

Looks like a lot more than one, h. Let me break them down... or at least try to..

1. First, there really aren't degrees of "consensus". There either is one or there is not one.
2. How close to reality is your hypothetical? Since I have no clue what players you are talking about in "hindsight"... and neither do you... as stated it's unanswerable.
3. "OK with"? lol... FWIW as fanciful as it is, I agree with your take of the commitment Hue likely showed prospects. The rest of this point is also simply fantasy.
4. Clearly that's what Jimmah was saying.
5. Sashi knows as I know that bringing in your precious "football guy" at the top doomed the consensus process. Agree that we were going to nail the 2018 draft.... we still may.
6. Nope...no bet. Besides the fact that it'd be forever unsettled unless Sashi writes a memoir, I tend to agree that the deal was at minimum left to die with a benign neglect if not outright killed. And if the boss wanted that deal done, then there's a price to be paid.
7. No, it "proves" nothing except that Analytics got one wrong. Even I'll admit Wentz is a top 20 QB.

 

[Tour2ma]

21 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

(Dorsey's) draft record isn't bad. It's not fantastic but it's not bad either.  He's a "football guy" who places an emphasis on athletic QB's with a decent amount of college experience and a lot of wins...so naturally you can see why Jimmy loved him so much.

We can? Other than Watson which of the other top prospects that "Sashi passed over" meet those criteria? Certainly not Wentz or Trubs...

Agree on Dorsey's draft record... pretty middling, but it's his FA work that is really suspect.

20 hours ago, Nero said:

I mean, the coach has some input, but his vote is similar to other assistants. Let's say he asks for a veteran receiver, then they look in the FA and decide to bring Britt. 

Or previous to the draft he gives a list of position needs and prospects he would like, then they decide which way is the best to fulfill those requests. 

Anyway, what I don't like is that they have to report separately to Jimmy. That means that any discussion or confrontation may be approached by the back door, instead of everyone reporting at the same time to the owner in a meeting. Jimmy has to be the owner, not the messenger or the general manager.

Both your sense of how the GM and HC can work together, and how Jimmah's reporting structure is poison to them doing so, are spot on.

18 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

It was reported that Greg Williams warned the Browns about Britt’s shenanigans, but obviously those warnings fell on deaf ears.

Yes it was... and IF true then that was a major error by the FO.

[Tour2ma]

12 hours ago, hoorta said:

Even after with 20\20 hindsight- they happened to be dead right- DUH!!! Process improvement involves realizing mistakes will be made, and be willing to correct them. 

If you're so damn freaking sure of yourself that my way is gonna work, regardless of what those dissident voices are saying- you got an ego problem that needs to be taken down a notch. My 0.02 Thanks Jimmy- Mission accomplished.

Not ego, h... just knowledge. If you knew "Process Improvement" beyond simply using it in a sentence, them you'd understand.

Humor me and explain, and support, whatever it is you are implying in the underlined bit.

[Tour2ma]

14 hours ago, wargograw said:

It’s interestig how the loudest complainers are those who have no idea how Sashi’s system worked.

Yes, it is... despite repeated efforts to explain how a consensus process worked. Almost seems like they did not want to know...

14 hours ago, hoorta said:

ROTFLMAO!!! And YOU  do, on the Browns payroll or something? You have no better freaking idea what the inside dealing in Berea was- than I do. I can tell you one thing for sure. It took exactly one day with Sashi gone to tell Kenny Britt to get lost. Hate to bust your bubble. Defend that one War. Nah Brown wasn't an arrogant knowitall that was never wrong about his "process". Pull your head out of your a$$, it's one of many major screw ups he wouldn't take responsibility for- and was forcing a substandard POS on Hue. Probably Kizer, and whoops Wentz isn't a top 20 QB, dwell on that one for a few minutes. 

You really need to make your lamea$$ points a few more times... throw a few more rumors and more innuendo against the wall. But please can you come up with some new ones?

[stillmotion]

25 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Both your sense of how the GM and HC can work together, and how Jimmah's reporting structure is poison to them doing so, are spot on.

This I wholeheartedly agree with you on. The reporting structure (which will continue) could of been the downfall of the last process and could mess up this next GM. The coach, Depo, and the GM all report to Dee and Jimmy like they’re reporting to Mommy and Daddy. If Hue doesn’t like something one of them is doing, instead of going directly to them, he goes to Jimmy and complains and then it creates a web of chaos. That’s very well part of what could of happened in the process of dividing Sashi and Hue’s agreement on certain things.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

32 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

We can? Other than Watson which of the other top prospects that "Sashi passed over" meet those criteria? Certainly not Wentz or Trubs...

Agree on Dorsey's draft record... pretty middling, but it's his FA work that is really suspect.

Both your sense of how the GM and HC can work together, and how Jimmah's reporting structure is poison to them doing so, are spot on.

Yes it was... and IF true then that was a major error by the FO.

 

Wentz certaintly does fit that criteria. He was a fifth year senior when he was drafted and started 22 games over his final two years once Jensen graduated. 

 

Trubisky doesn’t. But I still don’t believe he was a target anyway. Nor do I think anyone really cares we “missed out” on him.

 

 

 

[Tour2ma]

19 minutes ago, stillmotion said:

That’s very well part of what could of happened in the process of dividing Sashi and Hue’s agreement on certain things.

Subtle difference perhaps, but the real damage of the relationship is not in creating divisions, but rather in never resolving them.

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Not ego, h... just knowledge. If you knew "Process Improvement" beyond simply using it in a sentence, them you'd understand.

Humor me and explain, and support, whatever it is you are implying in the underlined bit.

Sorry if I'm letting my frustration show, but 1-27 will do that. Loads of fun going down to the Cantina for some Margaritas on Sunday with the guys, fully expecting OUR team to find a new and creative was to lose a game. Maybe I should start a Go Fund Me drive to buy Hue that wet suit when (with some luck) we beat the Bears.

OK, I don't know if Hue signed off on Britt- or not. But somebody sure wanted him around over the coach's objection. Plenty of head scratching personnel moves. 

Sounds like, I pick 'em, you coach 'em to me....   

41 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Yes, it is... despite repeated efforts to explain how a consensus process worked. Almost seems like they did not want to know...

You really need to make your lamea$$ points a few more times... throw a few more rumors and more innuendo against the wall. But please can you come up with some new ones?

So if there was no consensus, Sashi made the call? Yes\no? Apparently enough wrong calls in Haslam's mind he's no longer employed by the Browns? I know you let the process play out guys are going to say Jimmy was impatient again. He was at least smart enough this time to get his new GM in place before the season was over to get a leg up on the competition. We both agree the next draft is critical in that we have to nail the qb position (if you listened to the pressers, it's obvious Kizer is dead man walking) and at least a couple other of the first 5 picks. Bomb this next one out, Haslam may as well sell the team, move them to London and name them the Bulldogs. Just my personal opinion Tour- the more I think about things looking back over the last two seasons (and you can call me an unfounded conspiracy theorist if you like) the happier I am Sashi is gone. 

[Tour2ma]

1 minute ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Wentz certaintly does fit that criteria. He was a fifth year senior when he was drafted and started 22 games over his final two years once Jensen graduated. 

Trubisky doesn’t. But I still don’t believe he was a target anyway. Nor do I think anyone really cares we “missed out” on him.

If I stretch I guess I can see 22 starts is "decent experience", but 22 is not much of a criteria, IMO.

No one cares about Trubs now,  but if he goes Goff next season and we've not landed "our guy"... brace yourself.

[hoorta]

5 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Subtle difference perhaps, but the real damage of the relationship is not in creating divisions, but rather in never resolving them.

Now that we can look at it in the rear view mirror- I'd like your opinion what was going on with the Britt fiasco. LOL I'm sure you already know mine.    

[hoorta]

11 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

If I stretch I guess I can see 22 starts is "decent experience", but 22 is not much of a criteria, IMO.

No one cares about Trubs now,  but if he goes Goff next season and we've not landed "our guy"... brace yourself.

At the very worst picking 3rd Tour. Depending on who declares, that will land us one of the top two qb prospects. (I can't envision us beating either the Ravens or Steelers- unless Pittsburgh is locked into a playoff spot, and rests 1\2 their starters) A #3 + #7 should get us to #1 worst case scenario, unless the Giants- the only other top three in need of a qb sees another Elway type they gotta have at any cost...  

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

If I stretch I guess I can see 22 starts is "decent experience", but 22 is not much of a criteria, IMO.

No one cares about Trubs now,  but if he goes Goff next season and we've not landed "our guy"... brace yourself.

Starts and experience are two different things. The guy was in the same program for 5 years. He saw game action in four of those years. He entered the draft at 23. That’s hell of a lot more experience than a plenty of kids coming out nowadays.

[Unsympathetic]

3 hours ago, hoorta said:

I don't know if Hue signed off on Britt- or not. But somebody sure wanted him around over the coach's objection. Plenty of head scratching personnel moves. 

Sounds like, I pick 'em, you coach 'em to me....   

So if there was no consensus, Sashi made the call? 

Lesson #1 in a definition of process improvement: One example is NOT a process. Nor are two - or three.  You need 10 examples minimum to discern process from random variance. And that's just to determine current state before identifying specific problems and interventions.

1) Is your only example the whole Britt situation?
I've seen ZERO intel for or against the idea that Hue explicitly asked Sashi to keep Britt because Hue would rather play big WR's than TE's when in the red zone.  Njoku and DeValve are our mismatch weapons, yet they see significantly fewer targets and plays than they should.

Hue's favorite plays are slow-developing long things.. exactly what you'd want a big-body WR for.

2) You throw out the term "process improvement" and then describe exactly zero processes.

An example of a "process" would be "The method by which a player is given a grade" or "Evaluating player performance throughout the season."  In your analysis, remember that these processes [the "n" defining the # of times the process is used] apply to the bottom of the roster players as well as the "marquee" names like Britt.

I give Sashi the highest grade of any Browns GM since the rebirth in his addition of top-to-bottom athleticism and talent to the roster from the dumpster fire he was given.. while balancing that with maintaining draft picks for the future to build even higher from.

For example: Is Peppers employed well today? No. But I would put that on Williams as well as Sashi.. and frankly the sum of next year's mid-first WR/CB plus Peppers plus the 2019 1st round [when Dorsey trades down again] will be much greater in terms of VAR than anything Malik Hooker does.  [3 first-round starters for the price of 1]

3) If consensus can't be reached, someone has to make a decision.  But remember that we don't have definitive info on what, exactly, the "vote" was in any situation. I wouldn't read anything systemic unless it's called for.  Even if somebody starts, they don't have to receive more than 10 snaps -- PT is a coaching decision.  Why did Kasen Williams receive no PT.. he didn't suck.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

34 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Lesson #1 in a definition of process improvement: One example is NOT a process. Nor are two - or three.  You need 10 examples minimum to discern process from random variance. And that's just to determine current state before identifying specific problems and interventions.

1) Is your only example the whole Britt situation?
I've seen ZERO intel for or against the idea that Hue explicitly asked Sashi to keep Britt because Hue would rather play big WR's than TE's when in the red zone.  Njoku and DeValve are our mismatch weapons, yet they see significantly fewer targets and plays than they should.

Hue's favorite plays are slow-developing long things.. exactly what you'd want a big-body WR for.

2) You throw out the term "process improvement" and then describe exactly zero processes.

An example of a "process" would be "The method by which a player is given a grade" or "Evaluating player performance throughout the season."  In your analysis, remember that these processes [the "n" defining the # of times the process is used] apply to the bottom of the roster players as well as the "marquee" names like Britt.

I give Sashi the highest grade of any Browns GM since the rebirth in his addition of top-to-bottom athleticism and talent to the roster from the dumpster fire he was given.. while balancing that with maintaining draft picks for the future to build even higher from.

For example: Is Peppers employed well today? No. But I would put that on Williams as well as Sashi.. and frankly the sum of next year's mid-first WR/CB plus Peppers plus the 2019 1st round [when Dorsey trades down again] will be much greater in terms of VAR than anything Malik Hooker does.  [3 first-round starters for the price of 1]

3) If consensus can't be reached, someone has to make a decision.  But remember that we don't have definitive info on what, exactly, the "vote" was in any situation. I wouldn't read anything systemic unless it's called for.  Even if somebody starts, they don't have to receive more than 10 snaps -- PT is a coaching decision.  Why did Kasen Williams receive no PT.. he didn't suck.

And no one gives a flying Shmuck how high a grade you gave him, except you.

[hoorta]

4 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

1) Lesson #1 in a definition of process improvement: One example is NOT a process. Nor are two - or three.  You need 10 examples minimum to discern process from random variance. And that's just to determine current state before identifying specific problems and interventions.

2) Hue's favorite plays are slow-developing long things.. exactly what you'd want a big-body WR for.

3) I give Sashi the highest grade of any Browns GM since the rebirth in his addition of top-to-bottom athleticism and talent to the roster from the dumpster fire he was given.. while balancing that with maintaining draft picks for the future to build even higher from.

3) If consensus can't be reached, someone has to make a decision.  But remember that we don't have definitive info on what, exactly, the "vote" was in any situation. I wouldn't read anything systemic unless it's called for.  Even if somebody starts, they don't have to receive more than 10 snaps -- PT is a coaching decision.  Why did Kasen Williams receive no PT.. he didn't suck.

1) I have 27 examples the process wasn't working. How many more do you need?  Haslam rightly intervened. 

2) Who (Britt) had one season that was 3 SD above the mean?

3) Right, if it was all about athleticism Jamarcus Russell and Jeff George would be in the HOF.  Did you even notice Sashi created the dumpster fire in the first place? Got rid of almost all the vets and drafted a bucket of crap WRs? How many times has it been said here (and not just by me) you don't have to nuke the roster to rebuild. Um, Panthers? 

Oh, I totally get it. 2018 was the year of the big splash where Sashi was finally going to get the Browns more than one win. Haslam didn't trust him to do so, and this time- I'm on Jimmy's side. 

3B That my friend is what sent Sashi out of town. he made the final decision if consensus wasn't reached, and (in Haslam's eyes) too often it was the wrong decision. Lesson? don't send a lawyer bean counter to do a football guy's job. Haslam found out the 1-27 way. 

[wargograw]

5 hours ago, hoorta said:

1) I have 27 examples the process wasn't working. How many more do you need?  Haslam rightly intervened. 

2) Who (Britt) had one season that was 3 SD above the mean?

3) Right, if it was all about athleticism Jamarcus Russell and Jeff George would be in the HOF.  Did you even notice Sashi created the dumpster fire in the first place? Got rid of almost all the vets and drafted a bucket of crap WRs? How many times has it been said here (and not just by me) you don't have to nuke the roster to rebuild. Um, Panthers? 

Oh, I totally get it. 2018 was the year of the big splash where Sashi was finally going to get the Browns more than one win. Haslam didn't trust him to do so, and this time- I'm on Jimmy's side. 

3B That my friend is what sent Sashi out of town. he made the final decision if consensus wasn't reached, and (in Haslam's eyes) too often it was the wrong decision. Lesson? don't send a lawyer bean counter to do a football guy's job. Haslam found out the 1-27 way. 

He didn't make the final decision. Tour's answered this question at least a half dozen times. Why did you ask it again? Do you just not like the answer?

[wargograw]

On 12/8/2017 at 11:21 PM, hoorta said:

ROTFLMAO!!! And YOU  do, on the Browns payroll or something? You have no better freaking idea what the inside dealing in Berea was- than I do. I can tell you one thing for sure. It took exactly one day with Sashi gone to tell Kenny Britt to get lost. Hate to bust your bubble. Defend that one War. Nah Brown wasn't an arrogant knowitall that was never wrong about his "process". Pull your head out of your a$$, it's one of many major screw ups he wouldn't take responsibility for- and was forcing a substandard POS on Hue. Probably Kizer, and whoops Wentz isn't a top 20 QB, dwell on that one for a few minutes. 

Well since Sashi explained it fairly clearly, yeah, I do. At a minimum, I don't post things about what he did that are blatantly wrong thinking they will strengthen my criticism against him. 

Britt's gone because we are in "throw red meat to angry fans" mode. First Sashi. Now Kenny. (And hey look, you're still miserable! That sure was worth it!). Britt would have been one of the top 3 receivers on the roster this weekend. Period. But no, "he makes alot of money so he has to go!" (even though said money is paid already). Pure silliness, especially if you value winning one or two games over the future of the franchise, which you do.

 

13 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

We can? Other than Watson which of the other top prospects that "Sashi passed over" meet those criteria? Certainly not Wentz or Trubs...

Agree on Dorsey's draft record... pretty middling, but it's his FA work that is really suspect.

Both your sense of how the GM and HC can work together, and how Jimmah's reporting structure is poison to them doing so, are spot on.

Yes it was... and IF true then that was a major error by the FO.

I thought the story was that Williams recommended Britt to the FO. Now that we all hate Sashi, it's that he warned against him? 

[Westside Steve]

While I certainly don't and did not like Sashi Broad and his moves come on boys, there are an awful lot of misses when you're talking top three or four quarterbacks taken in the draft. And a lot of luck. But as far as whether or not Williams was a fan of Kenny Britt remember where we get our news from. Guys who make their living with speculation guesses and Bs who are required to crank out a barrel full of Quasi information everyday during football season.

WSS

 

[flyingfooldoug]

I'm curious to hear BKs pregame  take on the new GM and if the "process" will change from what it's been....you know THE PROCESS, where Jimmah calls all the shots like he's been doing all along. If he backs off, we have a chance.

[Westside Steve]

21 minutes ago, flyingfooldoug said:

I'm curious to hear BKs pregame  take on the new GM and if the "process" will change from what it's been....you know THE PROCESS, where Jimmah calls all the shots like he's been doing all along. If he backs off, we have a chance.

If Jimmy was calling all the shots then Sashi Brown was there to play the role of scapegoat. Why fire him?

WSS

[flyingfooldoug]

Just now, Westside Steve said:

If Jimmy was calling all the shots then Sashi Brown was there to play the role of scapegoat. Why fire him?

WSS

Look at the stands. Sure revenue sharing divides up ticket, tv and merchandise, but the team gets the whole thing when it comes to parking and concessions. 

 Stosh was no scapegoat, he sold Jimmah a bag of magic beans. 

Remember, it was big Jim that built flying J. Our Jim is tearing it down with his business knowledge. 

So...what is he doing with the Browns? Who the eff knows anymore?

[Canton Dawg]

5 hours ago, wargograw said:

I thought the story was that Williams recommended Britt to the FO. Now that we all hate Sashi, it's that he warned against him? 

Just the opposite, this was reported by Albert Breer & Doug Dieken.

[hoorta]

6 hours ago, wargograw said:

He didn't make the final decision. Tour's answered this question at least a half dozen times. Why did you ask it again? Do you just not like the answer?

Really? So they put two options on a slip of paper and picked what they were going to do out of a hat. 

[Suomi]

Not one to brag, but I did mention John Dorsey as my suggestion to replace Sashi way back on October 15, 2017.

[D Bone]

3 minutes ago, Suomi said:

Not one to brag, but I did mention John Dorsey as my suggestion to replace Sashi way back on October 15, 2017.

Quote yourself or it didn't happen....... 

[Suomi]

5 minutes ago, D Bone said:

Quote yourself or it didn't happen....... 

Tried.  Don't know how.

[LondonBrown]

On 08/12/2017 at 8:38 PM, hoorta said:

BTW DePo's all time stupid comment about Wentz not being a top 20 qb proves when push came to shove who was making the picks 

Hue made that call as much as anyone. He “fell in love” with RG3 after he was “floored” by his workout. His good friend Mike Silver, who was in the browns war room on draft night, tweeted that Hue liked Wentz but not at #2. The quotes and evidence is out there if you wish to see it. 

Also you’re completely wrong about Kizer being a analytics pick. His numbers weren’t conducive to being an analytics pick. What he IS, is clearly a tall strong armed QB not scared to turn it loose. Anyone would think Hue Jackson had a type....

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, LondonBrown said:

Hue made that call as much as anyone. He “fell in love” with RG3 after he was “floored” by his workout. His good friend Mike Silver, who was in the browns war room on draft night, tweeted that Hue liked Wentz but not at #2. The quotes and evidence is out there if you wish to see it. 

Also you’re completely wrong about Kizer being a analytics pick. His numbers weren’t conducive to being an analytics pick. What he IS, is clearly a tall strong armed QB not scared to turn it loose. Anyone would think Hue Jackson had a type....

London, all I'll say at this point is there's so much innuendo and contradictory reports, we can't really decide what the hell was going on. Guess I have a little private war going on with the consensus guys. That's OK, I really don't care anymore about the name calling. MY POV is they're sitting on the Titanic singing "My nearer my God to thee..." 

[Tacosman]

13 minutes ago, LondonBrown said:

Hue made that call as much as anyone. He “fell in love” with RG3 after he was “floored” by his workout. His good friend Mike Silver, who was in the browns war room on draft night, tweeted that Hue liked Wentz but not at #2. The quotes and evidence is out there if you wish to see it. 

Also you’re completely wrong about Kizer being a analytics pick. His numbers weren’t conducive to being an analytics pick.

which is part of the problem with this regime....we do need to use analytics in our approach going forward.  THat would mean not signing Kenny britt,not drafting peppers, not drafting kizer....

I sure as hell hope we make decisions driven by data(the right data) and are forward thinking. That would be a welcome change.