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stillmotion

So I watched "moneyball" for the first time yesterday

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Interesting concept....

I wonder if Paul Depodesta was pissed overweight Jonah Hill played him.

It was a good script, and I can definitely see how it translates to baseball.

It made me think hard if maybe Jimmy watched the movie or read the book and then decided we need to try and do it with football.

I have a few questions about it though.

It seems as though statistics are way more relevant in baseball then they are in football. Things like an on base percentage can't be compared to completion percentage. There's many variables in football players such as how much they love the game and what their off the field personalities are like. For example, In the movie, Jeremy Giambi was a bit of a wildcard, and somewhat toxic to the locker room. Johnny Manziel ended being like Jeremy Giambi (even though this was before we hired Depo).

As I think more about this, I can understand some of the moves more, but I'm also baffled by some. Like for example, the A's owner simply didn't have the money to spend as much as the Yankees. Jimmy has 60mil under the cap, and has Sashi and Depo trying to find undervalued guys, but it seems like the majority of the guys can't compete with the rest of the league. Players like Calhoun have been amazing, and made me proud, but it makes me wonder if Kessler or Kizer were really Hue's picks, or the F.O.'s analytics picks. Remember how Philip Seymour Hoffman as the manager won't start Scott Hattiberg, So Billy Beane trades the guy he is starting ahead of him to force him to play him. He keeps telling the manager it's a process and this is the way we're doing things. Ultimately, i think we're looking for undervalued talent so we can save money and still make the playoffs, but what I don't understand is JIMMY HAS PLENTY OF MONEY. We could get more young free agents, but we'd have to pay them more, which is the opposite of moneyball.

The Second thing I don't understand about it, is that the A's signed David Justice, who was a veteran, and many people undervalued. The Browns continue to let go of almost every veteran we come across, and stock up with young kids and draft picks. Baseball draft picks differ immensely from Football picks. My problem is why don't we get more veterans on the team for leadership (like Justice did during the Moneyball movie). Is Jamie Collins our David Justice for now? Is Jason McCourty our only other free agent veteran leader or do we have more?

I think some players, such as Tashaun Gipson were hurt, because Depo and Sashi cared more about saving the money then keeping them on the roster for veteran leadership. Sure, Haden was on the downside, but he was well respected and would of been huge for young'ins trying to learn how to play the position. To me, this approach makes our team feel like they are too expendable, and that separates them instead of bringing them together.

Enter Hue Jackson. He had the opportunity with the Giants and us, and he chose us. He's in over his head as OC, but he is literally been given a cheap Oakland A's team, just like in Moneyball. The problem is, is that it might be impossible to make a statistical calculation to find a football winner like you can in baseball. Maybe everything in life is quantifiable, but is football? I guess we're finding out now. I think Hue agreed as was stoked about a new approach to help save the Browns, but is being told to be a "Yes guy" now.

If Hue really did like Watson and others, and was ignored or told to stay quiet, then this is becoming a tough situation. This current front office needs more of a "yes man" since Hue now wants more control. Because of this, Hue seems to be putting Jimmy in a spot where he should either choose Moneyball or Hue. Moneyball has its uncertainties, but also its upside as well. Unfortunately we haven't seen any of the upside yet. Either we will in a couple of years, and Depo will be hailed a genius again, or it'll all blowup and we'll have to start over again. 

I think we can succeed if we

A ) Spend the draft capital and don't trade down

B ) Sign quality free agents, and spend that cap room. Because if Jimmy stays 30-60 million under the cap room in 2018 and 2019 both, then he's unfortunately just being a cheap bastard, and trying to win being a cheap bastard. Hopefully Depo's smarts help us get some quality talent this draft and we hit on it, because everything depends on it, and without a decent signal caller, we're f#$%ed.

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31 minutes ago, stillmotion said:

Interesting concept....

I wonder if Paul Depodesta was pissed overweight Jonah Hill played him.

It was a good script, and I can definitely see how it translates to baseball.

It made me think hard if maybe Jimmy watched the movie or read the book and then decided we need to try and do it with football.

I have a few questions about it though.

It seems as though statistics are way more relevant in baseball then they are in football. Things like an on base percentage can't be compared to completion percentage. There's many variables in football players such as how much they love the game and what their off the field personalities are like. For example, In the movie, Jeremy Giambi was a bit of a wildcard, and somewhat toxic to the locker room. Johnny Manziel ended being like Jeremy Giambi (even though this was before we hired Depo).

As I think more about this, I can understand some of the moves more, but I'm also baffled by some. Like for example, the A's owner simply didn't have the money to spend as much as the Yankees. Jimmy has 60mil under the cap, and has Sashi and Depo trying to find undervalued guys, but it seems like the majority of the guys can't compete with the rest of the league. Players like Calhoun have been amazing, and made me proud, but it makes me wonder if Kessler or Kizer were really Hue's picks, or the F.O.'s analytics picks. Remember how Philip Seymour Hoffman as the manager won't start Scott Hattiberg, So Billy Beane trades the guy he is starting ahead of him to force him to play him. He keeps telling the manager it's a process and this is the way we're doing things. Ultimately, i think we're looking for undervalued talent so we can save money and still make the playoffs, but what I don't understand is JIMMY HAS PLENTY OF MONEY. We could get more young free agents, but we'd have to pay them more, which is the opposite of moneyball.

The Second thing I don't understand about it, is that the A's signed David Justice, who was a veteran, and many people undervalued. The Browns continue to let go of almost every veteran we come across, and stock up with young kids and draft picks. Baseball draft picks differ immensely from Football picks. My problem is why don't we get more veterans on the team for leadership (like Justice did during the Moneyball movie). Is Jamie Collins our David Justice for now? Is Jason McCourty our only other free agent veteran leader or do we have more?

I think some players, such as Tashaun Gipson were hurt, because Depo and Sashi cared more about saving the money then keeping them on the roster for veteran leadership. Sure, Haden was on the downside, but he was well respected and would of been huge for young'ins trying to learn how to play the position. To me, this approach makes our team feel like they are too expendable, and that separates them instead of bringing them together.

Enter Hue Jackson. He had the opportunity with the Giants and us, and he chose us. He's in over his head as OC, but he is literally been given a cheap Oakland A's team, just like in Moneyball. The problem is, is that it might be impossible to make a statistical calculation to find a football winner like you can in baseball. Maybe everything in life is quantifiable, but is football? I guess we're finding out now. I think Hue agreed as was stoked about a new approach to help save the Browns, but is being told to be a "Yes guy" now.

If Hue really did like Watson and others, and was ignored or told to stay quiet, then this is becoming a tough situation. This current front office needs more of a "yes man" since Hue now wants more control. Because of this, Hue seems to be putting Jimmy in a spot where he should either choose Moneyball or Hue. Moneyball has its uncertainties, but also its upside as well. Unfortunately we haven't seen any of the upside yet. Either we will in a couple of years, and Depo will be hailed a genius again, or it'll all blowup and we'll have to start over again. 

I think we can succeed if we

A ) Spend the draft capital and don't trade down

B ) Sign quality free agents, and spend that cap room. Because if Jimmy stays 30-60 million under the cap room in 2018 and 2019 both, then he's unfortunately just being a cheap bastard, and trying to win being a cheap bastard. Hopefully Depo's smarts help us get some quality talent this draft and we hit on it, because everything depends on it, and without a decent signal caller, we're f#$%ed.

First of all, I thought the same when I found out which frame really has DePodesta and how fat Jonah Hill is in the movie, lol. 

Second, I don't think that moneyball itself can translate into football, and I haven't been around the team enough time to know if it was referenced by Jimmy or Sashi or anyone. It woudn't surprise me a bit if the media directly assumed that as DePodesta was the strategy chief they would be trying using Moneyball in football. 

Third, I want to believe that part of the plan was to use free agency just once a team was bond together, and to have not just more cap space, but also more maneuverability when the decisive signings will come in play. If you sign veterans, they will want at least two or three year contracts, and may Shmuck up your salary cap with dead cap and all when you're trying to sign a playmaker in a future. I want to believe this because the use they are doing of the cap actually is a bit disappointing, thinking how many good players we could have signed with it. 

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One aspect of analytics is that they price certain positions and stick to it. For eg they priced Pryor and when he turned it down, they let him walk. In retrospect they were correct, look at Pryor's season with Washington it was awful and I think it's actually ended. Tashaun wasn't worth whatever he was asking for especially after his last season here. They should've kept Poyer (and tried to get him back) and admitted that they mishandled Schwartz.

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1 hour ago, MDDawg said:

For eg they priced Pryor and when he turned it down, they let him walk. In retrospect they were correct, look at Pryor's season with Washington it was awful and I think it's actually ended.

If they were correct, why did they try to swing a deal to get him back last month?

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1. Moneyball is a made up term that can mean anything you want it to

2. What the Athletics do is not what the FO are doing. The rules dictate that for one  

3. Analytics is not...let’s be cheap. Check the contracts they gave to the offensive lineman this off season. It’s also not trade down at every possible opportunity. Research the picks. 

4. Analytics is mainly research into what is proven to work in the NFL and how that came out of college. It’s what numbers stack up and what do not.

It is mainly NOT trusting a scout that falls in love with someone that can throw the ball 180 yards and really cares about his Mum.

The emotion is taken out of it, as it should be. 

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1. They offered Gipson more money, but he left and took less to get out of CLE.

2. The Browns are NOT doing "moneyball" the way the A's did it.  They are trying to develop a philosophy that has worked for other teams. Build through the draft (more picks=more oppirtunities to add a quality player... and we need a lot of them). Wait to use FA "when it matters", meaning once you have a team with enough talent to compete then you add the 2-3 big pieces.  If you dont have the "core" of young players, then you are just wasting money and taking away reps and development from your younger players.

3. The way it is now, we have spent 2 years developing a TON of young players. Now that we have an idea of who is going to stick as a starter, and who can provide decent depth, now we can "go crazy" and add the talent we need to compete in the short term.

4. Here's what I see on offense... We dont have a starting QB so we need to use FA if we want to start competing next year.  We also need to invest in a young "franchise QB" via the draft... early.  We have Duke, Coleman, Njoku, Gordon (big maybe), Btitt (we're stuck with him but might perform better as a #3), and a good O-Line. That means we need 1-2 "playmakers" at skill positions. Bring in a young WR via the draft, a proven "possession WR" via FA, and replace Crowell. The concern is Coleman & Gordon being available. Without them, the O will struggle again.

5. Here's what I see on D... We have Kirksey, Garrett, Shelton, Collins, BBC and McCourty who all can play. The rest of the D has talent, but we could really improve the D by adding a pass rusher in the draft, a MLB to compete with Schobert... maybe a vet to be the "captain" on D, and help in the secondary.  A high-rated CB and a true FS would be nice.

Priorities- 1. QB, 2. O weapons, 3. Secondary help, 4. Pass rush

 

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1 minute ago, thenew23 said:

1. They offered Gipson more money, but he left and took less to get out of CLE.

2. The Browns are NOT doing "moneyball" the way the A's did it.  They are trying to develop a philosophy that has worked for other teams. Build through the draft (more picks=more oppirtunities to add a quality player... and we need a lot of them). Wait to use FA "when it matters", meaning once you have a team with enough talent to compete then you add the 2-3 big pieces.  If you dont have the "core" of young players, then you are just wasting money and taking away reps and development from your younger players.

3. The way it is now, we have spent 2 years developing a TON of young players. Now that we have an idea of who is going to stick as a starter, and who can provide decent depth, now we can "go crazy" and add the talent we need to compete in the short term.

4. Here's what I see on offense... We dont have a starting QB so we need to use FA if we want to start competing next year.  We also need to invest in a young "franchise QB" via the draft... early.  We have Duke, Coleman, Njoku, Gordon (big maybe), Btitt (we're stuck with him but might perform better as a #3), and a good O-Line. That means we need 1-2 "playmakers" at skill positions. Bring in a young WR via the draft, a proven "possession WR" via FA, and replace Crowell. The concern is Coleman & Gordon being available. Without them, the O will struggle again.

5. Here's what I see on D... We have Kirksey, Garrett, Shelton, Collins, BBC and McCourty who all can play. The rest of the D has talent, but we could really improve the D by adding a pass rusher in the draft, a MLB to compete with Schobert... maybe a vet to be the "captain" on D, and help in the secondary.  A high-rated CB and a true FS would be nice.

Priorities- 1. QB, 2. O weapons, 3. Secondary help, 4. Pass rush

 

Nice post, the only thing I have to add is the use of Njoku by Jackson is a Shmucking joke, so much I wonder if there's an ulterior motive

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11 minutes ago, LondonBrown said:

Nice post, the only thing I have to add is the use of Njoku by Jackson is a Shmucking joke, so much I wonder if there's an ulterior motive

I agree, Hue needs to use Njoku in the slot.

Just like the Pats use Gronk, and Seattle uses Graham.

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He’s a freak of an athlete for his age and looked good at times. Hue doesn’t bother using him. Or Duke. 

He has got an ulterior motive. He must be sacked. 

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Baseball is barely a team sport

Football is completely a team sport

 

 

There's your biggest difference

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You’re acting like you can just overpay a bunch of guys because you have the money NOW and it won’t come back to bite you down the road. It will. 

 

Furthermore, we knew that we wouldn’t be good for several years. So taking a 29 year old that has 2 years left in the tank that won’t be here once we’re actually good is completely pointless. And that’s also why we let guys like Donte Whitner go. They take snaps away from young guys who will be here in the future. 

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To be fair... THEY never said they were hired to use the same tactics as what they did with the As. The media made all this up. And fans. For all we know they aren't using "moneyball" and are just being stupid. Haha. Everyone just assumedthey would because depodesta was known for it.

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4 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

If they were correct, why did they try to swing a deal to get him back last month?

He wanted much more than they offered him initially, then bet on himself with a one year deal with Washington. If they'd acquired him now he would've been cheaper than the initial offer.

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3 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

I agree, Hue needs to use Njoku in the slot.

Just like the Pats use Gronk, and Seattle uses Graham.

I really don't know why Hue doesn't do this more frequently, it would've really helped Kizer against the pass rush last week.

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Moneyball, Billy ball, analytics all very new radical concepts at first and now practiced by most teams in some form.

Good ownership, coaching, scouting, strategic planning is as old as professional  sports and isn't so radical afterall.....he who does it well wins.

 

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7 hours ago, MDDawg said:

He wanted much more than they offered him initially, then bet on himself with a one year deal with Washington. If they'd acquired him now he would've been cheaper than the initial offer.

Let’s not forget their pathetic attempt at Pryor’s replacement (aka Kenny Britt) which also spawned their offer for Pryor.

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On 11/23/2017 at 7:28 PM, LondonBrown said:

1. Moneyball is a made up term that can mean anything you want it to

2. What the Athletics do is not what the FO are doing. The rules dictate that for one  

3. Analytics is not...let’s be cheap. Check the contracts they gave to the offensive lineman this off season. It’s also not trade down at every possible opportunity. Research the picks. 

4. Analytics is mainly research into what is proven to work in the NFL and how that came out of college. It’s what numbers stack up and what do not.

It is mainly NOT trusting a scout that falls in love with someone that can throw the ball 180 yards and really cares about his Mum.

The emotion is taken out of it, as it should be. 

And yet the game itself is one of emotion.....ironic

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On 11/23/2017 at 5:23 PM, stillmotion said:

Interesting concept....

I wonder if Paul Depodesta was pissed overweight Jonah Hill played him.

It was a good script, and I can definitely see how it translates to baseball.

It made me think hard if maybe Jimmy watched the movie or read the book and then decided we need to try and do it with football.

I have a few questions about it though.

It seems as though statistics are way more relevant in baseball then they are in football. Things like an on base percentage can't be compared to completion percentage. There's many variables in football players such as how much they love the game and what their off the field personalities are like. For example, In the movie, Jeremy Giambi was a bit of a wildcard, and somewhat toxic to the locker room. Johnny Manziel ended being like Jeremy Giambi (even though this was before we hired Depo).

As I think more about this, I can understand some of the moves more, but I'm also baffled by some. Like for example, the A's owner simply didn't have the money to spend as much as the Yankees. Jimmy has 60mil under the cap, and has Sashi and Depo trying to find undervalued guys, but it seems like the majority of the guys can't compete with the rest of the league. Players like Calhoun have been amazing, and made me proud, but it makes me wonder if Kessler or Kizer were really Hue's picks, or the F.O.'s analytics picks. Remember how Philip Seymour Hoffman as the manager won't start Scott Hattiberg, So Billy Beane trades the guy he is starting ahead of him to force him to play him. He keeps telling the manager it's a process and this is the way we're doing things. Ultimately, i think we're looking for undervalued talent so we can save money and still make the playoffs, but what I don't understand is JIMMY HAS PLENTY OF MONEY. We could get more young free agents, but we'd have to pay them more, which is the opposite of moneyball.

The Second thing I don't understand about it, is that the A's signed David Justice, who was a veteran, and many people undervalued. The Browns continue to let go of almost every veteran we come across, and stock up with young kids and draft picks. Baseball draft picks differ immensely from Football picks. My problem is why don't we get more veterans on the team for leadership (like Justice did during the Moneyball movie). Is Jamie Collins our David Justice for now? Is Jason McCourty our only other free agent veteran leader or do we have more?

I think some players, such as Tashaun Gipson were hurt, because Depo and Sashi cared more about saving the money then keeping them on the roster for veteran leadership. Sure, Haden was on the downside, but he was well respected and would of been huge for young'ins trying to learn how to play the position. To me, this approach makes our team feel like they are too expendable, and that separates them instead of bringing them together.

Enter Hue Jackson. He had the opportunity with the Giants and us, and he chose us. He's in over his head as OC, but he is literally been given a cheap Oakland A's team, just like in Moneyball. The problem is, is that it might be impossible to make a statistical calculation to find a football winner like you can in baseball. Maybe everything in life is quantifiable, but is football? I guess we're finding out now. I think Hue agreed as was stoked about a new approach to help save the Browns, but is being told to be a "Yes guy" now.

If Hue really did like Watson and others, and was ignored or told to stay quiet, then this is becoming a tough situation. This current front office needs more of a "yes man" since Hue now wants more control. Because of this, Hue seems to be putting Jimmy in a spot where he should either choose Moneyball or Hue. Moneyball has its uncertainties, but also its upside as well. Unfortunately we haven't seen any of the upside yet. Either we will in a couple of years, and Depo will be hailed a genius again, or it'll all blowup and we'll have to start over again. 

I think we can succeed if we

A ) Spend the draft capital and don't trade down

B ) Sign quality free agents, and spend that cap room. Because if Jimmy stays 30-60 million under the cap room in 2018 and 2019 both, then he's unfortunately just being a cheap bastard, and trying to win being a cheap bastard. Hopefully Depo's smarts help us get some quality talent this draft and we hit on it, because everything depends on it, and without a decent signal caller, we're f#$%ed.

Great stuff!  Loved that movie.  The key thing to remember in that movie was Billy Bean was told by the owner of Oakland he had to trim salary significantly; so he was challenged to think differently than he was conditioned to do.  Ironically, Billy Bean found his guy (Depo) in Cleveland who attended Yale (or Princeton?) as opposed to Harvard. Warning, the rest will be long and full of frustration...

The problem with Hue being more of a yes sir is that it would be toward very inexperienced football FO people rendering his years of experience useless.  I thought I've read and heard it's all supposed to be a democracy/team inclusive of the Head Coach's input. When I watched the game vrs Houston and heard the commentator say that Watson told him Hue texted him asking him if he's excited and to get ready - I got a flash back to the Civil War sinking ship between Farmer and Pettine (w/ Shanny wanting out).  What a way to decimate a promising 7-4 start in spite of numerous injuries that had everyone thinking what a great story Cleveland was.  Then we went 3-18 the rest of the way which also lost a considerable volume of veteran buy in to the staff (and Jimmy O'Neil in particular).  Parcels always said if you want me to cook the meal then I should also be able to do the grocery shopping (he will ultimately be evaluated by).  Saying no thanks to Watson and sentencing anybody to the next Brandon Weeden/Jamarcus Russell could be the passive aggressive reason we're watching Hue cram Kizer down Sashi's esophagus. Unfortunately, that would mean the fan-base is being asked to be patient with the 2nd consecutive Civil War.  The fault is with Jimmy if true.

This FO needs an experienced football guy just like our younger players need experienced football players to learn from in the film/meeting rooms.  If Jimmy doesn't know that yet - Heaven help us man!  And, as much as I like bigger draft volumes - it seems like more of our energies are spent on all the trading than what value will be in those spots (to determine what the better investment is). I understand Watson got hurt exactly like Teddy B got hurt in practice; but if anyone watched him throw at the combines or vrs Ohio State and Alabama (who stockpiled the NFL draft) -you see this wasn't RG3 vrs the defense-less Big 12 conference.  Watson and Trubisky threw the best out-routes to complete strangers at the combine and it wasn't even close.  He threw well all day IMO. And when he came in to start with much of the same personnel Brock Os struggled with last year and Savage struggled with earlier this year  - guess who's scoring offense soared to #1?  He threw 3-5 TD passes a game in the process while his defense was missing essentials like Watts-his-name, Mercilus, Cushing and others.  Not bad for a rookie learning curve.  I still think Watson and Trubisky are the best 2 QBs in a draft that we had the 1st and 12th slots overall as well as the draft volume to move up if need be.  As fans, we made sense of Njoku and Peppers and a 1st round pick added to next year BUT now that defers an inexperienced passer's growing pains and learning curve s out another 2 years.  Meanwhile, we're being told Kizer has EARNED the right to start while he leads the NFL in turnovers while his accuracy, depth perception and pocket presence leaves a lot to be desired.  Why would his college coach, that saw him practice every day for 2 years, be totally dismissed for saying he is not ready at all for the NFL game?  On the other hand, Watson's National Championship HC said whoever drafts Watson is going to get the great leader that made us National Champs. 

The problem with trading back to the future all the time - is all the CURRENT players under contract suffering here without a QB are beginning to dream about playing somewhere else asap.  Has anyone ever played in the outfield on a day their pitcher couldn't find the strike zone - it's a forfeit that gets everyone out of synch on the rare occasions he does put the ball in play.   You better believe his teammates start thinking - "when is this poor squid starting again?"  We're  on park with this today. We're going through the growing pains of the next Brandon Weeden - who keeps hearing he EARNED the right to start. Let's get real here. He didn't earn the right to start - our FO just didn't think it was any big deal put our passing game in handicapped parking.  After all, it's only after 17-18 years after we re-entered the league with 5-27 football.  There comes a time when needing to be more patient requires better than 1-25 football and the reality that the weakest spots on our active roster are at the QB and WR positions in a passing era.  We clearly don't have the FO/Scouting Dept that is capable of knowing what Wentz and Watson are capable of so there's a lot more to it than we just need to be patient.  Rip Van Winkle must have been a Browns fan; and if he's just waking up from his nap in 1999 - he has to think it's still 1999 (even if it's 18 years later)... 

 

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lol...

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1 hour ago, Flugel said:

Great stuff!  Loved that movie.  The key thing to remember in that movie was Billy Bean was told by the owner of Oakland he had to trim salary significantly; so he was challenged to think differently than he was conditioned to do.  Ironically, Billy Bean found his guy (Depo) in Cleveland who attended Yale (or Princeton?) as opposed to Harvard. Warning, the rest will be long and full of frustration...

The problem with Hue being more of a yes sir is that it would be toward very inexperienced football FO people rendering his years of experience useless.  I thought I've read and heard it's all supposed to be a democracy/team inclusive of the Head Coach's input. When I watched the game vrs Houston and heard the commentator say that Watson told him Hue texted him asking him if he's excited and to get ready - I got a flash back to the Civil War sinking ship between Farmer and Pettine (w/ Shanny wanting out).  What a way to decimate a promising 7-4 start in spite of numerous injuries that had everyone thinking what a great story Cleveland was.  Then we went 3-18 the rest of the way which also lost a considerable volume of veteran buy in to the staff (and Jimmy O'Neil in particular).  Parcels always said if you want me to cook the meal then I should also be able to do the grocery shopping (he will ultimately be evaluated by).  Saying no thanks to Watson and sentencing anybody to the next Brandon Weeden/Jamarcus Russell could be the passive aggressive reason we're watching Hue cram Kizer down Sashi's esophagus. Unfortunately, that would mean the fan-base is being asked to be patient with the 2nd consecutive Civil War.  The fault is with Jimmy if true.

This FO needs an experienced football guy just like our younger players need experienced football players to learn from in the film/meeting rooms.  If Jimmy doesn't know that yet - Heaven help us man!  And, as much as I like bigger draft volumes - it seems like more of our energies are spent on all the trading than what value will be in those spots (to determine what the better investment is). I understand Watson got hurt exactly like Teddy B got hurt in practice; but if anyone watched him throw at the combines or vrs Ohio State and Alabama (who stockpiled the NFL draft) -you see this wasn't RG3 vrs the defense-less Big 12 conference.  Watson and Trubisky threw the best out-routes to complete strangers at the combine and it wasn't even close.  He threw well all day IMO. And when he came in to start with much of the same personnel Brock Os struggled with last year and Savage struggled with earlier this year  - guess who's scoring offense soared to #1?  He threw 3-5 TD passes a game in the process while his defense was missing essentials like Watts-his-name, Mercilus, Cushing and others.  Not bad for a rookie learning curve.  I still think Watson and Trubisky are the best 2 QBs in a draft that we had the 1st and 12th slots overall as well as the draft volume to move up if need be.  As fans, we made sense of Njoku and Peppers and a 1st round pick added to next year BUT now that defers an inexperienced passer's growing pains and learning curve s out another 2 years.  Meanwhile, we're being told Kizer has EARNED the right to start while he leads the NFL in turnovers while his accuracy, depth perception and pocket presence leaves a lot to be desired.  Why would his college coach, that saw him practice every day for 2 years, be totally dismissed for saying he is not ready at all for the NFL game?  On the other hand, Watson's National Championship HC said whoever drafts Watson is going to get the great leader that made us National Champs. 

The problem with trading back to the future all the time - is all the CURRENT players under contract suffering here without a QB are beginning to dream about playing somewhere else asap.  Has anyone ever played in the outfield on a day their pitcher couldn't find the strike zone - it's a forfeit that gets everyone out of synch on the rare occasions he does put the ball in play.   You better believe his teammates start thinking - "when is this poor squid starting again?"  We're  on park with this today. We're going through the growing pains of the next Brandon Weeden - who keeps hearing he EARNED the right to start. Let's get real here. He didn't earn the right to start - our FO just didn't think it was any big deal put our passing game in handicapped parking.  After all, it's only after 17-18 years after we re-entered the league with 5-27 football.  There comes a time when needing to be more patient requires better than 1-25 football and the reality that the weakest spots on our active roster are at the QB and WR positions in a passing era.  We clearly don't have the FO/Scouting Dept that is capable of knowing what Wentz and Watson are capable of so there's a lot more to it than we just need to be patient.  Rip Van Winkle must have been a Browns fan; and if he's just waking up from his nap in 1999 - he has to think it's still 1999 (even if it's 18 years later)... 

 

I completely agree with you Flugel,

No one thought Kizer was ready to start right away, and Hue asking for more say next year has me think that maybe he had some QB's that he liked, but the Front Office wanted or decided to do things another way. We'll never know what happened back there, but the FO and HC need to be on the same page. However we are picking QB's right now doesn't seem to be working. And yes man, Watson dominated and everyone loved him. When a coach says something negative about his QB before he enters the draft it's always a red flag, or like I said with Rosen, If his high school coach, college coach, scouts, and people who know him all have negative things to say, it raises a red flag to me. People have to rely on our future QB as a leader. A person to trust will work harder than everyone else and get the job done. A person who like Joe Thomas said about Manziel "will put football first". Rosen said in an interview he could do something else easy if football works out. The kid's lived his whole life with a silver spoon up his butt, so i'm afraid taking him at #1 would result in Bo Callahan 2.0. But REGARDLESS on my personal take on QB, we need to take a different approach next year. Whether it be adding an offensive coordinator, and a talent evaluator consultant, what we're doing now isn't resulting in winning, and that's the most important thing.

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Who the hell is this Bo Callahan that you keep comparing Rosen to stillmotion?

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On 11/23/2017 at 10:00 PM, wargograw said:

You’re acting like you can just overpay a bunch of guys because you have the money NOW and it won’t come back to bite you down the road. It will. 

 

Furthermore, we knew that we wouldn’t be good for several years. So taking a 29 year old that has 2 years left in the tank that won’t be here once we’re actually good is completely pointless. And that’s also why we let guys like Donte Whitner go. They take snaps away from young guys who will be here in the future. 

If they want to win next year, they need to add FAs, at least on offense. Adding more rookies on offense will NOT make this a winning team next year.

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On 11/23/2017 at 7:00 PM, wargograw said:

You’re acting like you can just overpay a bunch of guys because you have the money NOW and it won’t come back to bite you down the road. It will. 

 

Furthermore, we knew that we wouldn’t be good for several years. So taking a 29 year old that has 2 years left in the tank that won’t be here once we’re actually good is completely pointless. And that’s also why we let guys like Donte Whitner go. They take snaps away from young guys who will be here in the future. 

yet another strawman from you. I've always said for the plan to work, we need to sign free agents next year and the year after. Like I've said a ton of times, if jimmy is 40-60 million under the cap in 2018 and 2019 then he's just being a cheap bastard. No other reasoning about it.

Actually, Taking a 29 year old with 2 years left in the tank would've been great. We could've been winning with a guy like Keenum. Tanking and losing shouldn't be under anyones strategy. You have to find ways to win in this sport. And quite frankly, we have no veteran leadership at QB. If a veteran was with us, our QB's might develop much better. Keenum had a $2mil contract, but it's all good, just like Children of the Corn, we can't have players younger then X age.

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20 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Who the hell is this Bo Callahan that you keep comparing Rosen to stillmotion?

The QB that is ranked #1 in the Draft Day movie. 

About Hue, I'm just going to say this: I think there's a lot of blame to put on him for some of the losses this year, so I would rather keep quiet and not start demanding to have more voice in the decision making. 

He is not in a position to demand anything. If I am the boss and someone who is underperforming dares to complain to me, he's simply getting more tickets to get fired.

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LOL you all and your "moneyball" cowpoop. Do you understand anything about baseball? What happened after the big 3 starting pitchers (which were all drafted by the A's) left the team? The Indians of the 90's did a better job of putting together a team through the draft, trades and free agency. Just not as good on the starting pitching front.

BTW what has Paul DePodesta done for the last 15 years?

Why better way to revive your career than to go to a team that has been God awful for the last 17 years? There is nowhere to go than up right?

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 So Rosen is being compared to a fictional character from a poor movie? :lol:

 

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17 minutes ago, Richiswhere said:

LOL you all and your "moneyball" cowpoop. Do you understand anything about baseball? What happened after the big 3 starting pitchers (which were all drafted by the A's) left the team? The Indians of the 90's did a better job of putting together a team through the draft, trades and free agency. Just not as good on the starting pitching front.

BTW what has Paul DePodesta done for the last 15 years?

Why better way to revive your career than to go to a team that has been God awful for the last 17 years? There is nowhere to go than up right?

You do know that the principles of "Moneyball" were responsible for the ending of epic title droughts for the Red Sox, Cubs and Astros, right?

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5 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

You do know that the principles of "Moneyball" were responsible for the ending of epic title droughts for the Red Sox, Cubs and Astros, right?

KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK what have the A's done in the last 15 years since the big 3 starts all left???  Your right 2016 Cubs $163 million payroll #6...yep thats moneyball the 2004 Red Sox $125 million payroll #2 again more moneyball......spend alot of money and you can ball

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1 minute ago, Richiswhere said:

KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK what have the A's done in the last 15 years since the big 3 starts all left???  Your right 2016 Cubs $163 million payroll #6...yep thats moneyball the 2004 Red Sox $125 million payroll #2 again more moneyball......spend alot of money and you can ball

Using the Astros as example, though, while they were rebuilding the team they spent NOTHING on payroll.

The Browns are following that exact approach.

Not saying it will work, but the parallel is there.

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