Jump to content
THE BROWNS BOARD

The 'who have you watched lately?' thread.

tiamat63

By tiamat63
in THE BROWNS BOARD

Recommended Posts

Tour2ma Contributor

Tour2ma

Posted
Posted

The plus I see is how he disrupts OL flow in ZBS... and he does that fairly consistently. But honestly... otherwise I'm not seeing much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 253
  • Created
  • Last Reply
TexasAg1969 Veteran

TexasAg1969

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, SD_Tom said:

I've been watching some Nick Chubb film, and totally wouldn't mind seeing him in a Browns uniform this season.

Did you compare his pre-injury tape with post-injury? Not quite the same back.......................yet. I think those things take a couple of years to regain pre-injury form, so in the long run he may be a better back that we last saw. Sony Michel was playing better than he at the end of this year, but Chubb was still the starter. I'd take either one but I'd also be happy with Guice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
tiamat63 Veteran

tiamat63

Posted
  • Author
Posted
On 4/7/2018 at 9:17 PM, Tour2ma said:

The plus I see is how he disrupts OL flow in ZBS... and he does that fairly consistently. But honestly... otherwise I'm not seeing much.

I did notice the ZBS attacks being his discipline against the lateral game...    of course that could also be mistaken for lazy defense.

Going to have to differ with you a bit here, I think Ford could be a late round gem in time.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites
SD_Tom Newbie

SD_Tom

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Did you compare his pre-injury tape with post-injury? Not quite the same back.......................yet. I think those things take a couple of years to regain pre-injury form, so in the long run he may be a better back that we last saw. Sony Michel was playing better than he at the end of this year, but Chubb was still the starter. I'd take either one but I'd also be happy with Guice.

I just watched his 2017 stuff.  Guice might be gone by the time the Browns pick in rd 2.

I think most of this group (Penny, Chubb, Jones,  Michel,  and Johnson)  will be there in rd 2.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TexasAg1969 Veteran

TexasAg1969

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

I just watched his 2017 stuff.  Guice might be gone by the time the Browns pick in rd 2.

I think most of this group (Penny, Chubb, Jones,  Michel,  and Johnson)  will be there in rd 2.

I agree. And of the remaining I would take Michel. But as soon as Guice goes we will have to trade up into the 1st to get him. He won't be there if Guice goes by 20-24 or so. With so many FA's sighed we don't need all those late rounders anyway. Use 'em for trade up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tour2ma Contributor

Tour2ma

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Going to have to differ with you a bit here, I think Ford could be a late round gem in time.  

Vive la difference!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TexasAg1969 Veteran

TexasAg1969

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 

We have our agreement on our #1 QB for the first time in our mutual tenure' on this board.     I was happy enough to consider that a victory.  

Why don't you guys volunteer to bring the slip up to the Commish on draft night. No one but Dorsey will know what happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
tiamat63 Veteran

tiamat63

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Just now, TexasAg1969 said:

Why don't you guys volunteer to bring the slip up to the Commish on draft night. No one but Dorsey will know what happened.

Not a bad point there.  Hit the runner with the ol' ninja nitsu sleeper hold and put on a brown blazer...     we could make it work.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TexasAg1969 Veteran

TexasAg1969

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, tiamat63 said:

Not a bad point there.  Hit the runner with the ol' ninja nitsu sleeper hold and put on a brown blazer...     we could make it work.  

Yeah Tour understands the intricacies of double team blocking after all.;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MLD Woody Grand Master

MLD Woody

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Maybe I'll just ask Dorsey politely, kind of like how Woody did with coach Williams and got Peppers last year.   

#notbitteroranything

You just need to build the type of rapport with him like I did with Williams. The type of bonding that only comes from taking with him at the Auto Show

 

Sadly, they weren't there this year, or I would have brought up Hurst. (who PFF mocked to us at #4)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
syd Grand Master

syd

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

You just need to build the type of rapport with him like I did with Williams. The type of bonding that only comes from taking with him at the Auto Show

 

Sadly, they weren't there this year, or I would have brought up Hurst. (who PFF mocked to us at #4)

so youre the reason why we drafted Peppers ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
tiamat63 Veteran

tiamat63

Posted
  • Author
Posted

So I decided to go back over Allen with a fine tooth comb.  I know I said I wouldn't cover prospects I don't like, but I'm going to break that rule for this one.   I'm going to do every game for 2017, take notes and give final impressions and I went with a random jumping off point - the Boise State game.    Which I'm glad I did, there is a formation and route structure I immediately noticed within a couple minutes of this video I'm familiar with.    Long winded post here, get some coffee and saddle up.  

 

Starting @ the 1:03 mark.            We call this Gun Flip offset, trips right.    It's nice because it creates a quads situation where you can either catch the defense napping, setup some nice HB flares/bubbles, and you get a true 1v1 look on the backside.  (All you Corey Coleman fans take note, this is what made him look all world at Baylor...)

 

 

 Below is your typical smash-divide concept...   

Reads go -  Red: Primary    Blue: Secondary  Yellow: Alert/third and then checkdown.    Grey/Black is a pre-snap check that the QB and WR work on.  We have a series of hand signals to indicate a route if we get the look we want.  The concept is simple and straight forward.   Again, some of those are widely considered universal staples.  The other stuff with the backside receiver and the alert read are different team to team.  Point being, the primary and secondary are almost always the same.  Formation strength goes to the field, gives our WR's room to run.  

 

- Based off read corner/throw corner that sits over the top the #1WR.  The Divide part route really stresses safeties into a choice and testing communication.  If it's a 2 shell then it becomes who is playing the seam vs who is rotating outside a hash.  This is where you get coverage rolls and key reads (I'll explain that in a post another time) but either way, vs a single high, that FS is forced to help the weak point of your coverage - the backer or safety on the #3.   Especially in our offense where it's hard to get a clean disrupt being that our #3 is off the LOS.

 

SD%20traditional_zpspo323vli.jpg

 

 

Downside being a college coach is that your QB might not be quick at processing the info, might stare down a read, might not have a great arm and/or you might be facing some great DB's.   The problem is that good corners will bait QB's into throwing that 7 route when they read hitch in front of them.  You saw it a lot with Josh Norman, Darius Slay, ... basically defenses that play a solid amount of Cover 2 end up hitting you with cover 6 in these looks and your QB gets his butt handed to him ( including the Brownies at one point under finger Jauron)        So you have to make that CB commit and help your QB out with something easy to read.   Enter what the Cowboys (and many other teams) now do.

Instead of your #1 running 3/4 and a hitch,  they'll run either a slant or a slant and square it off inside when reading zone vs man then build in a flat receiver as the checkdown. So a vertical stretch, an in and a flat. Triangle concept for the most part.   Why?   The CB has to either commit to man on his WR or make an under call to the interior defender now forcing a switch between the two then the CB has to go hard flat.   It's a motherShmucker to cover, trust me.  Granted, you don't see the Divide from the #3 run here in this example.   He just B-lines for the inside backer and settles down in front of him.  I thought it was going to be an over route, but either way it's effective.  

 Boise goes man the whole way that side when they see the motion.  To their credit it's played with great discipline but this is where I stress about the quickness of your QB's eyes,  his command of his own offense, and finally understanding and processing what is in front of him quickly.   This is where I want you to run the tape back and look at it with me. 

Again, starting with 1:03.  Pre snap you see single high, CB's at 7 to 8 yards off, no bump, no re-route and the nearest safety help is on the other hash.   Unless that's Earl Shmucking Thomas he ain't getting to my primary on the out.    

 - 1:04 - 1:05 the motion forces the OLB into man and across the board so you know your primary is still looking good.  

- 1:05 to 1:06 is keying like we said earlier, read corner/throw corner.  That safety isn't helping Sheet, snap of the ball he's getting width and depth but it doesn't matter.    The CB has his weight over top over his feet, his hips square with the LOS and is driving forward at the #1's backpocket on the slant before Allen has even started his throwing motion.    Keep in mind, at that same point, the #2 (primary) is breaking to the out 5 yards past the corner where he's vacated that space.     I can't tell from this angle, but perhaps Josh did check his primary...? If he did then for whatever reason he didn't rip it.   It was there.  That DB covering our primary gave it to his receiver for the taking.  Check out the DB's hips... with his back to the sideline at 1:07.      The #2 (primary) was even nice enough to speed the out/round it out when the DB opened his hips.    This should be routine for a senior QB no matter the receivers.   You make that throw everytime.     

- But what is worse and what should scare you more - Allen may have checked into that #1 WR the whole way and WAS STILL late with his delivery.   IF that is the case, then that ball should be gone @ 1:06 just as the WR makes his break and placed to the receivers up field shoulder.  That would demonstrate anticipation of the route and seeing coverage.  Instead,  JA double clutches, starts his throwing motion at 1:07 and the ball is in there in a hurry making contact with the receiver at the 1:08 tick.     Boy can spin it, no Shmucking doubt.   But, as what has showed up on tape and numerous times throughout the season, the ball is placed behind his receiver low and away AND late.    

The former of those two would make more sense and reminds me of Tour's "flashes in front of him then throws" comments from the senior bowl.     JA has the read, doesn't deliver, comes to his secondary late only when he sees him clear the LB and has already settled down.  By that point the ball should have already been on it's way but instead the WR has to wait. 

 

Josh has all the physical tools in the world.   He's gifted in ways not many humans walk this earth are.   But from what I saw initially, and what I'm starting to see at the very beginning of my 2nd looks... the mental aspect is something he's a long way off on.  At least, with any kind of consistency.              We're Cleveland fans, we hear all the time that Kosar was one of the most cerebral QB's in the game which is why he was able to overcome being a limited athlete with a funky throwing motion.     This feels like the opposite of that.    Oh, there goes that word again *consistency*.   The one thing the greats all share.  They'll hammer you time and time again and rarely make a mistake when you give them freebies like I've highlighted.    

I'll have more to come throughout the week and weekend about Allen.  But It's not like I don't want the kid for no reason.  There appear to be  several reasons and they're the ones that separate good QB's and average QB's. 

 

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TexasAg1969 Veteran

TexasAg1969

Posted
Posted

Thanks for the breakdown tia. Good to see some real football analysis on here. One of the things that separates Rosen from Allen is anticipation of the receiver coming open with the throw being made before it happens. Allen seems to need to see it happen first before he will throw. That won't cut it in the NFL. For the longer passes that translates to a sack or a DB interception.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tour2ma Contributor

Tour2ma

Posted
Posted

Agree.... for me it boils down to field vision. That was the hurdle Kizer ran up against and could not clear.

What tia describes cannot be taken in piecemeal and certainly cannot be complete if a QB only looks at his receivers. A QB has to take in blocks of info... areas of the field.... multiple targets and defenders (and their relationships to each other) in a glance.

In this draft only one of the top QBs displays field vision with any regularity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
tiamat63 Veteran

tiamat63

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Another great example (or terrible depending on how you phrase it) is @ 4:20 in that same game about understanding what he see's post snap.

Initial look you have what appears to be a 0- man pressure the whole way.   It's a nice move by the Broncos but it isn't like it's disguised so well like you can't see what is happening after the ball is in play.   In this instance, as a QB,  should this be a 6 man pressure and that both backers are coming at me, the OLB is unblocked thus is the one you're responsible for reading and throwing hot. That has to be in the back of your mind.   Oline is going to worry about bottling up the interior stuff first and making the guy farthest outside get to your QB.

So you know have man across the board - a trend that Boise State had shown all game and you get a double move with your boundary #2 who gets matched on a safety.   This is purely by design and great work done by the coaching staff to attack man coverage.    The big responsibilities JA has here is 1 - identifying pressure...  gotta make sure you have time to push the ball vertical;  and 2 - identifying where the safety is should the backers not attack.   You cannot float this ball up without the latter most especially, you simply cannot do it. 

The MIKE is sitting hard in the A gap so I'm really not too worried about him affecting where the vertical threat will go.  I still see man the whole way. Just need to know if he's shooting a gap.   At the snap the OLB fly's to the field side #2 and the FS covering him rotates hard to center field, the MIKE immediately backs out and plays a middle field read.    Granted seeing Boise St. defenders is a bitch on that turf - their unis and the field color are a gimmick that the NCAA simply shouldn't allow, but I digress.  To their credit it's a good design and a great bait drawn up by the Boise coaches.    But Allen's eyes again, NEVER leave his man.  They don't look for a defender, they don't even check the interior or possible edge pressure.    Cherry on top, you pump fake at your intended target and you STILL haven't checked the safety.      Even then without the safety it's a ball that never would have been completed because it sailed on him but there is that issue rearing it's head again - when JA misses, he misses high.     

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...