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tiamat63

The 'who have you watched lately?' thread.

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After the holidays perhaps...

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1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Checking in watching this here Fiesta Bowl.

-Marcus Allen.     

Like Marcus. good size FS frame 6'2 206 with long arms.good tackling tech.Huskies coach's mold some good corners & DB's out of there too

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Vita is being handled by very average interior right now.  

seems to like the outside of DE lane, dying for a inside spin or inside swim...BTW--Penn Starts 8 seniors on defense except both DE's & the Sam LB.. 

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I've been thinking this for a bit, and someone on the Fiesta Bowl broadcast referred to Barkley as "Marshall Faulk with size".

I don't want the Browns to use either first rounder on him, but I'd love to have him on the team, if that makes any sense.

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        Mo Hurst...  


   Where does one start when you see the award lists and media personalities call him a top 20 pick? Sure, he plays for the team I despise most in this world, but that didn't stop me from saying I rather enjoyed this evaluation.  Overall I found Mo to be something of an enigmatic watch at times. I've seen articles and UM forums calling Hurst like Gerald McCoy,  Aaron Donald and of course as everyone tries to do - JJ Watt.  I've found he's really none of these players.  Mo is his own man for good and not so good reasons.  That said, what he does well, he does VERY well.  What he doesn't do so well....  was exploited to great effect.    I'll give a quick synopsis then break things down after with links to videos and additional thoughts.   Warning, long read ahead.  

Let's dive in, shall we?   


What I likes...

         - Elite first step.    

  Good fire off the ball and great response time from the start of the snap. You don't see interior
Blockers with a chance to get setup camp and make a sandwhich by the time his feet start moving like some players.  Ball moving - He moving.
      

         - Pad level (on contact)

  The coaches at *ichigan have done a great job preaching pad level.  It shows across every cutup I watched with every player.   It's important
To keep in mind both Mo and Rasaun Gary (their two best) are both 6'2 plus.  So pad level is crucial and those boys are listening to what is being preached.


         - Lateral agility and pursuit

  Old boy can move sideline to sideline.  One of the things I noticed he's good at is attacking the stretch plays.  Backside, front side, didn't matter.  Mo 
Was typically on top of things when any team started their run game pointed outside.  This appeared to be the strength of that defense. 

         - Motor

  Cliche' and I admit that.  But even when soundly locked up he's fighting his man.  I don't mean that as a euphemism either, he wants to fight you.

What I didn't like...

         - Balance/leverage after straightline contact

  When Mo couldn't beat you up field into a gap (even when shaded)  he tried too hard to 'get skinny' and often found himself turning sideways in the hole.     
There were times he was simply knocked over because of how he used, or failed to use his lower leverage.

         - Interior strength vs the run

  I'll be honest this is what concerned me most. But as I type this I question whether it's a matter of strength, or joining back to what I previously typed,
Just a mattter of working on his leverage and staying square.   


         - Upfield pursuit and finish

  You can see the fire and wanting to create havoc, but in doing so you also see times where the discipline in gap integrity becomes an issue. Sometimes just blindly
launching yourself into a man might cause disruption, other times teams prepare for your style and use it against you.
 

 Now, what do I mean by first step?  EZ-PZ and probably the quickest highlight of this to find.


       


  

  @ 0:02 The very first defensive snap of this cut you see what I'm referring too. Ignoring the result of the play, you see his response off the ball is within 3 frames of the snap.  That is an awesome jump and having a good anticipation of the count regardless of the players height/weight. I don't mean just once either.  He did it routinely against...

         - Florida 

 
  @ 1:30 

       

 

 


         - Maryland

  @ 3:44   

       

 

 

 

         - Even my Buckeyes

  @ 4:28  

       

 

 

 

 - Lateral Agility 

    @ 1:05 vs UF in the link above.   Lined up as a 4i, Mo crosses the guards face on a designed slant inside.  This is a 5 man pressure and UM's bread and butter.

A crosser meant to free up Bush as the primary blitzer and Mo as the secondary man should the Oline bring chip help and not pass off their proper responsibilities in protection. Mo ends up moving the QB off the spot and Bush finishes the play.  It's supposed to be the opposite but his explosion frees up the backers that play behind him.   Side note:   The players make the play but tip the cap to Don Brown on some of these pressure packages.  Some of these designed just mind Shmucked Floriduh for the bulk of the night.  


 But this is where I talk about Mo's lateral agility and first step.  Pause at 1:06 if you will.  He's sounding beating his man laterally  while at the same time pushing up field and keeping his eyes high.   Sure, he doesn't finish the play like you might want to see, but that's not what this is about (this time) QB has been flushed from the pocket and the percentages of an accurate throw let alone completed pass drop dramatically when you move a passer like that.   Win the down, move on. 


 Of the traits I've mentioned in the positive side of the column.  This is going to be the one that will get Mo drafted.  Finding bigs with that low end torque in hopes you can Use them to shut down the off tackle running game while frustrating interior blockers and even tackles with their quickness.   Rare breeds like that go from relative obscurity to well known seemingly with one premium game - look no further than Grady Jarrett taking Tom Brady to church in last years SuperBowl. 


  

- Take a break, it's halftime.  

 At this point I won't post too many more links because this post is already Flugs worthy by now (love ya buddy lol)   So I'll refer back to clips above and keep this a bit more Condensed as we wind down.  Just a couple more videos if you've even bothered to pay attention this far. As with most any player, there is a 'BUT'. Mo is no different than almost Any other player in that there are drawbacks to his game.


-  When I mention balance and leverage, this is exactly what I'm talking about.   


 @0:52 seconds... freeze it.

 

  Granted, this play is going away from Mo.  However I wanted to use it because it's the clearest shot I could get.   This happens more often than I would like to see. It did vs Sparty, a couple times vs the Bucks and Indiana.  Shoulders turned sideways and no longer square with the LOS, being turned against his hips and leveragd outside and in some cases back inside.  Wisky has a "bigger" Oline but these are the type of lineman and gap runs are something he'll see rather regularly in the NFL.   


- Balance, Pursuit and Finish.


  @0:50 seconds in...  


 

 

 

   Now for a big man, simply saying "square you cuts, get low and gather yourself" all at the same time can be easier said than done, but this was something that showed its head at times As well.   The issue is his upper body being "high".   Picture a wrestler getting ready to shoot or pick an ankle, because when you fly in untouched you have to be able to gather yourself, Shorten your steps and get lower.  This would have helped Mo slow himself, angle towards the QB's front leg and secure the sack.  This is something Geno Atkins might be the best in the NFL at.

 - Final thoughts 

  Mo is a great player, you can't argue against it, I can't argue against it. Really, nobody can.  He has a first step I look for in elite lineman, good motor and good pad level on contact.  But as I come away from this assessment, I find the names McCoy, Donald and Atkins thrown around a bit too generously.  Even when talking with Woody and Cleve I mentioned Mo as a potential JJ Watt In a sense of an edge defender that can slide to the interior in sub packages, against certain looks, downs, distances, etc etc.    I was wrong with that comparison.   That's not to detract from Mo's talent, not at all.  But more of an indication of just how special JJ is but also that I feel Mo will be a very scheme specific player.  He doesn't have the speed to get around the edge and not the size to be lined up inside unless as a role player. I.E I won't be asking him to play much heads up unless I'm calling my line to slants and I sure won't ask him to 2 gap.    Seeing him in a base 3 man front, similar to the E-N-T we ran under Pettine and then moving around when asked looks to be ideal.  


  When trying to find an NFL comparison I can tell you he's not Geno, Watt, Donald or McCoy.   He does remind me of tOSU's own Michael Bennett when I watched him at times.  Although with a better burst.    Now I don't honestly anticipate Big Mo holding up as an every down interior defender.  That doesn't appear to be his strength... BUT that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. You just have to understand the raw tools you're working with and when I typed up that last paragraph, I considered projections in correlation and respect with team needs and schemes.   I see Mo as a late 1st rounder, MAYBE high 2nd depending on how teams see him at the combine. When the shine from the awards fades and the tapes comes on, teams will ask the same questions I am.         The late 1st round potential (scheme dependent) where you want to use those current players strengths screamed one team when I was finishing this review. So I would like to think our Titans friends can expect Jurrell Casey to be getting some help very soon.    Mo is exactly the type of player Coach Lebeau would have a field day with and at that point in the draft I can't see an edge defender that would out-value him.  Producing the interior pressures that the Tennessee front desperately needs will be hard to pass up.   It's a win-win for Mo and Tennessee.   A young and promising player that gets matched up up with a legendary coach in need of help up front who in return will be given time and reps to polish the technical aspects of his game.    

Plus... well, he gets to keep wearing a shade of blue.    So in the words of Michael Scott "Win, Win-win".
 

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10 minutes ago, RoyceRolls said:

Great content, thanks for taking the time to put that together Tia. 

Admittedly I've been distracted the last couple weeks so the last 1/3 was kind of rushed.  I missed this last week because of family issues so I really didn't have time to proof-read or add secondary commentary that I like too. 

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To Tiamati:

Just curious as to why Woody is not gobbling your knob since you waxed poetic about a MichiShmucker. I don't question your evaluation....except to ask: Is Defensive Tackle a position that the Browns would consider taking with one of their first round picks?  

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25 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

To Tiamati:

Just curious as to why Woody is not gobbling your knob since you waxed poetic about a MichiShmucker. I don't question your evaluation....except to ask: Is Defensive Tackle a position that the Browns would consider taking with one of their first round picks?  

Some mocks have Mo as a top 20 player, closest I could see to that might be Detroit as a team that values 1 gap interior shooters and maybe giving up some in the run game as the only team with a consistent and committed ground game in that division is Minnesota.     I just see him as a better fit down South so maybe that's his issue?   Either way I won't claim to know and honestly I really don't care.     Hurst is a player that isn't going to be able to launch himself head first into NFL tackles and guards with reckless abandon like he does at times.  He needs to play with more control and when he does that he could be great.  Yet another reason why I feel the fit with Lebeau is so ideal.  Old coach will get that type of improvement out of him.  

The Brownies could use someone to provide more interior pressure but I see that as possibly being Coley and Brantley with more experience and health under their belt.   I don't see a dominant interior player to justify that high of a pick. Hence why, as of this moment, I'm in favor of a small trade down from 4 and praying Chubb falls a few spots being that QB's will have a run early.    We need additional pressure outside of banking on Garrett and right now that is very hit or miss with this team.  

 

edit:  Quite literally just read Patricia will be named HC of the Lions.    I'm not entirely versed on his philosophies but I know he runs a lot of under fronts this year.   So even that mock has little idea beyond simple projection.   But given the versatility in personnel he demands, I guess I could still see Mo there. 

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21 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Admittedly I've been distracted the last couple weeks so the last 1/3 was kind of rushed.  I missed this last week because of family issues so I really didn't have time to proof-read or add secondary commentary that I like too. 

Don't sweat the proof reading. Great stuff Tia!

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52 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

To Tiamati:

Just curious as to why Woody is not gobbling your knob since you waxed poetic about a MichiShmucker. I don't question your evaluation....except to ask: Is Defensive Tackle a position that the Browns would consider taking with one of their first round picks?  

Most of what he said is true. Though it is worth noting Mo was PFF's highest rated player in all of CFB this year.

 

Also, we just drafted a handful of DT's. I doubt we go  after Mo.

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3 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Most of what he said is true. Though it is worth noting Mo was PFF's highest rated player in all of CFB this year.

 

Also, we just drafted a handful of DT's. I doubt we go  after Mo.

 

Corey Coleman was PFF's highest rated receiver for the 2016 Draft and I called Michael Thomas better.      

I appreciate evals and grades, but they're stat nerds that see one thing only - numbers.      Not that I don't do something similar, but projections go beyond that.

Thanks for the kudos though, guys.     Means a lot.   

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4 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 

Corey Coleman was PFF's highest rated receiver for the 2016 Draft and I called Michael Thomas better.      

I appreciate evals and grades, but they're stat nerds that see one thing only - numbers.      Not that I don't do something similar, but projections go beyond that.

Thanks for the kudos though, guys.     Means a lot.   

He's a DT.... I don't think they're just looking at a box score. And I don't think theM picking Coleman as their highest performing WR in college a few years ago invalidates all of PFF because he's performed underwhelmingly here while battling injuries.  But, to each their own.

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9 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

He's a DT.... I don't think they're just looking at a box score. And I don't think theM picking Coleman as their highest performing WR in college a few years ago invalidates all of PFF because he's performed underwhelmingly here while battling injuries.  But, to each their own.

I have no argument with that.   Where Don Brown uses him is primarily as an interior defender,  but that doesn't negate the fact where you play at the collegiate level won't always be your primary in the NFL.   

My point wasn't to invalidate PFF's scores but that their grades are just that - numbers. Thus not always translatable to future success.   Football isn't always quantified by such things.    And that their top graded players and CFB ---> NFL projections aren't always something to abide by either.

Mo, along with every other player, earns those high marks and rightfully so.   But to highlight the flaw/anomaly in their rankings is that they don't take into account how those scores are earned schematically speaking.    

 

To return to the CC example, I remember after the draft giving a quick eval about Coleman being the greatest beneficiary of a Baylor offense that routinely gave him 1on1 looks against overwhelmed Big12 DB's while playing in a high volume offense.     At the same time his drop percentage being all but completely discounted from their grades.  

No one system of evaluation is perfect, they all have their faults.  Which is why I feel it's so important to use all of them as an all encompassing tool to one's advantage.  

 

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Hurst played alongside Mone in our 4 lineman sets, and Mone was the more true big run stopping DT. Hurst was more of an interior pass rusher. 

We did run a 3 line set sometimes though, without Mone.

Though I don't think anyone is expecting Hurst to come in and be some mammoth run stopper. Maybe a 3-4 end? A DT in a 4-3? Idk. 

Clearly the PFF rankings won't directly translate to NFL success. There are a lot of variables there. Just like high school rankings don't directly translate. But, at the same time, you have a better chance to be successful I'm college as a 5* than a 3*. That's the point I'm getting at.

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2 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Hurst played alongside Mone in our 4 lineman sets, and Mone was the more true big run stopping DT. Hurst was more of an interior pass rusher. 

We did run a 3 line set sometimes though, without Mone.

Though I don't think anyone is expecting Hurst to come in and be some mammoth run stopper. Maybe a 3-4 end? A DT in a 4-3? Idk. 

Clearly the PFF rankings won't directly translate to NFL success. There are a lot of variables there. Just like high school rankings don't directly translate. But, at the same time, you have a better chance to be successful I'm college as a 5* than a 3*. That's the point I'm getting at.

You did see my recommendation on being a late 1st round pick and going to the Titans, I trust? 

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Yeah, I read it. I said I agree with pretty much all of it. I just think it's worth mentioning he was PFFs top overall player.

Also, we'll have to see how the combine goes. I remember that being when Aaron Donald blew up.

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3 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

Also, we just drafted a handful of DT's. I doubt we go  after Mo.

I doubt tia's evaluation are based upon which positions we are likely to draft. He just likes doing evaluations.... albeit probably with some positions preferred over others.

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

No one system of evaluation is perfect, they all have their faults.  Which is why I feel it's so important to use all of them as an all encompassing tool to one's advantage. 

Agree... I look as well at various grades, rankings. It's nice when they "validate" my takes, but I don't sweat it when they don't. In either case understanding why, if discernible, they do or don't agree with my take can be useful.

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42 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

I doubt tia's evaluation are based upon which positions we are likely to draft. He just likes doing evaluations.... albeit probably with some positions preferred over others.

 

I was responding to someone else there, not Tia. I know his evaluations aren't influenced by the Browns need

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Saw the Barkley and Sutton has a camp thread...   

I've got one on deck that isn't going to please that crowd.  

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On deck...

Poona Ford - not easy finding tape on

 

and Rasheem Green....  pretty easy starting with the NoD game.

 

 

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23 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

and Rasheem Green..

Not that it means anything, but he's a name that the FirstPick sym is taking for us more and more when I GM a team other than the Browns. Sym nabs him to start Round 2.

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For all those that love Harrison from Stanford and think he's a first rounder....  you should be all means love this kid.  I give you, Poona Ford.  


Vs Baylor.   I'll use early examples so you don't have to go far into the tape.

 

 

@ 0:16   Makes contact and doesn't let the Center anchor.  Alternates hands on the punch until he gets the rips/swim past.  Good balance and base, keeping his feet under him.    Ford makes this play.  

@0:45    0Tech heads up, draws double, still has play strength to hold his ground.

@0:55    Eyes up, good pad and balance level, timing feet and hands,  reads mesh point and attacks QB's upfield shoulder.


@6:50  1tech shade, fires to inside should of RG and drives too far inside allowing crease.  See's cutback and attempts to roll into lane.   Undiscplined at times.

- Play strength   
- Good hand usage 
- Balance and footwork sync
- Maintains low center and pad level keeping interior lineman from getting under him.


Consistently holds point against doubles and walks back centers.
You don't see him extending out over his base much.  Decent arm length allows him to keep interior lineman from getting hands into him.  Also doesn't fire into lineman off base very often, but when he does allows himself to be out leveraged and turned inside/outside.    Flows well laterally when aligned outside shade of guard because of adequate wingspan and awareness.  


I've watched VS. Baylor, TCU, halfway through the WVU game and I want to re-watch the USC game as well.    In this small sample size the trends haven't really changed video to video (yet)  No Jeckyll and Hyde play style to my eye.   Good motor, strong interior player.      I'll have more examples the more I watch but I plan on getting his entire 2017 season in.  So far, I really like what I see.    I'll have more on him later.

 

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1 minute ago, Tour2ma said:

Not that it means anything, but he's a name that the FirstPick sym is taking for us more and more when I GM a team other than the Browns. Sym nabs him to start Round 2.

I watched the NoD game, vs Texas and then Colorado.  Wasn't impressed enough to watch much further.   Saw an eval that compares him to Carlos Dunlap...        size wise - perhaps.  In terms of play strength, first step and availability to make a year 1 impact?  Didn't see it flash at any point really. 

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