Tashaun Gipson Hopes to "Hang 40" on Browns

[stillmotion]

2017

Cleveland Browns

Approximate space: $105 million

A couple of years of caution and few homegrown talents to reward allowed the Browns to carry over more than $50 million from last year's cap. That accounts for nearly half of this season's league-leading total. Receiver Terrelle Pryor Sr. is in position to consume some of that space, but the Browns already have given linebacker Jamie Collins a four-year extension (2017 cap hit: $12.1 million) and almost certainly will roll over a significant portion of their current space to 2018.

Since the total salary cap from 2013-2016 is $554.55 million, then every NFL team, including the Browns, must have a cash spend of at least 89% of that by the end of the 2016 league year, which is $493.55 million.

More like he had to get someone like Collins and Zeitler.

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Need more? Dwayne Bowe...

Just more proof that we need better talent evaluators in there so it doesn't happen again. (cough, BRITT, cough)

[Tour2ma]

But you said higher pay means better players?

Now I'm confused...

[Tour2ma]

25 minutes ago, stillmotion said:

2017

Cleveland Browns

Approximate space: $105 million

A couple of years of caution and few homegrown talents to reward allowed the Browns to carry over more than $50 million from last year's cap. That accounts for nearly half of this season's league-leading total. Receiver Terrelle Pryor Sr. is in position to consume some of that space, but the Browns already have given linebacker Jamie Collins a four-year extension (2017 cap hit: $12.1 million) and almost certainly will roll over a significant portion of their current space to 2018.

Since the total salary cap from 2013-2016 is $554.55 million, then every NFL team, including the Browns, must have a cash spend of at least 89% of that by the end of the 2016 league year, which is $493.55 million.

More like he had to get someone like Collins and Zeitler.

Actually we haven't been in "have to spend mode" for a couple seasons now.

And not sure where you got your "approximate" data, but it's clearly months old as it mentions Pryor's bite at the apple. It's also clearly wrong.

Total Cap Liabilities: $155,357,654

• Top 51: $84,174,780
• Team Cap Space: $61,841,025

• Offense: $62,618,337
• Defense: $48,438,905
• Special: $5,102,292

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/cleveland-browns

[The Gipper]

My question about Tashaun's  statement:    He plays defense, does he not?    Then why would he say that he wants to hang "40" on the Browns...assuming he means 40 points.

Shouldn't a defensive player's thought process be more like "We want to hang a Goose Egg" on them?    I mean....if the Jags "hang 40" on the Browns...that would be the accomplishment of the offense, not the defense, no?  Beyond that....what if the Jags DO "hang 40" on the Browns......but the Browns "hang 42" on that defense?   That would be a real slap in the face, no?   (not that I would ever expect this offense to score 42 on anyone, particularly the Jags).

[Canton Dawg]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Semi-silly perhaps... but just proves the naysyaers don't have a monopoly on hyperbole...

Peppers was also in my analysis, but then he's not really a FS either... is he?

And then there's the whole issue of Gip being worth his contract... an issue you deftly avoided.

Peppers is a non-factor due to where he plays, certainly no fault of his.

I would say overpaying a free agent is the norm in the NFL.

Is Gip worth $35 million? How about Kenny Britt...is he worth $32 million?

 

[Tour2ma]

52 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

Is Gip worth $35 million? How about Kenny Britt...is he worth $32 million?

Based upon Britt's 2017 performance? Well, that's a rhetorical question isn't it? Based upon his 2016 performance? Absolutely...

Can you say the same about Gip?

On 11/15/2017 at 9:23 AM, Tour2ma said:

					Games		Def Interceptions					Fumbles					Sacks & Tackles
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Int	Yds	TD	Lng	PD	FF	Fmb	FR	Yds	TD	Sk	Tkl	Ast	Sfty	AV
Career					75	67	18	430	2	67	30	1	1	1	0	0		223	92		27
4 yrs		CLE			50	42	14	324	2	62	23	1	1	0	0	0		156	79		20
2 yrs		JAX			25	25	4	106	0	67	7	0	0	1	0	0		67	13		7
2012	22	CLE	fs	39	10	3	1	23	0	23	1							23	6		2
2013	23	CLE	FS	39	16	15	5	143	1	44	12							63	31		6
2014*	24	CLE	FS	39	11	11	6	158	1	62	8	1	0	0	0	0		28	24		8
2015	25	CLE	FS/rcb	39	13	13	2	0	0	0	2	0	1	0	0	0		42	18		4
2016	26	JAX	FS	39	16	16	1	30	0	30	2							34	7		7
2017	27	JAX	FS	39	9	9	3	76	0	67	5	0	0	1	0	0		33	6

 

[stillmotion]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

But you said higher pay means better players?

Now I'm confused...

Kenny Britt was never a WR1. Showed flashes of talent but was lazy. Dwayne Bowe was streaky at best and never a top 5 WR in the league. Collins was one of the only top tier signings we had recently. Usually, more pay = the players are better, doesn't mean people don't make mistakes, but the biggest mistake is leaving gaps all around your team and expecting twenty some year olds to play neck and neck with veterans.

[Tour2ma]

Well... Britt wasn't signed to be a WR1 was he? Wasn't paid WR1 money, was he?

Yes, he under performed at points in his career including this season to date... until DET, where he lit it up early.... That's the guy we thought we'd signed to be our #2 behind Coleman.

Misses aren't uncommon... even with FAs who have a longer track record. However, I can't recall a member here who did not see the disaster coming that was Dwayne Bowe.

 

And least we forget... Collins was not an FA signing. He was a "roll-the-dice-and-trade-for-a-player-in-a-contract-year" who saw what we were doing in Believeland and bought into it enough to extend and stay.

Not sure anyone gives our "dismal worthless" FO enough credit for that one.

 

Good discussion...

[stillmotion]

4 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Well... Britt wasn't signed to be a WR1 was he? Wasn't paid WR1 money, was he?

Yes, he under performed at points in his career including this season to date... until DET, where he lit it up early.... That's the guy we thought we'd signed to be our #2 behind Coleman.

Misses aren't uncommon... even with FAs who have a longer track record. However, I can't recall a member here who did not see the disaster coming that was Dwayne Bowe.

 

And least we forget... Collins was not an FA signing. He was a "roll-the-dice-and-trade-for-a-player-in-a-contract-year" who saw what we were doing in Believeland and bought into it enough to extend and stay.

Not sure anyone gives our "dismal worthless" FO enough credit for that one.

 

Good discussion...

I'm not talking about the F.O. at all. I'm talking if Jimmy is willing to part ways with his money to sign more FA's or to resign players. So far in his tenor as owner, he hasn't proved that he will.

[Tour2ma]

Jimmah and the FO are inseparable when it comes to spending... so yes, you are talking about the FO... which in addition to the Collins dice-roll has spent on:

• the Bito extension,
• Zeitler,
• Joe's raise... while he was already under contract...
• Tretter... bit of a pattern in these first four...
• McCourty and Taylor... there.. got off the OL.

Pretty sure I named every player who is not playing under rookie contract... which BTW are cheap contracts. How many picks have we made in the past 3 and 4 years? 30 and 40? Plus UDFAs?

And that's not to mention the $35mm (or was it 50?) or so he poured into stadium rennovations. Do you really think he lays out that kind of cash only to skimp on the product so the place is only half full by the end of Sept?

How 'bout the $16mm paid for a 2nd round pick?

The guaranteed money to get Bowe gone? The past couple staffs... The past couple GMs...

 

If you can ignore all that, then you are one tuff nut. But a nut with one more year, about 16 months actually, to decry Jimmah's financial commitment.

[jiggins7919]

So, the more I research this game, the more it looks like it COULD be closer to 40-0 than not.  It's bad for us, no question about it.  Why?  Mainly because of the defensive scheme Jax runs, and the probable injuries of our two starting OT's.  I know Hue said we might get Shon Coleman back, but I wouldn't bet on it.  Additionally, Tretter popped up on the injury report with like three different injuries, so that's not good either.  Jax doesn't blitz a lot.  Instead, they consistently rush 4 and their DL runs a BUNCH of stunts and twists.  This often confuses OL's and causes all kinds of trouble.  If we had our starting OL, I'd feel a LITTLE bit better, but we're far from healthy right now, and it could be a VERY long day for our QB who is suffering from a painful rib injury.  It's pretty much the worst matchup we could've hoped for after the injuries suffered in the Lions' game.  

Making matters infinitely  worse, Jax has talented LB's and DB's.  Jalen Ramsey is giving up basically next to nothing this season, and he's a big, strong, athletic CB.  Welcome back Corey Coleman.  And since Jax doesn't blitz too much, you can bet there are going to be tons of people around the ball in the secondary.  Those screen passes to Duke probably won't work, and I don't see the stupid WR screens working either.  Right now, I'd probably bet money Kizer doesn't make it through the entire game healthy.  He's going to get dropped over and over again.  

Our big hope is that Bortles craps the sheets and gives us a few turnovers...maybe even a pick-6.  Perhaps we can get a special teams play as well....we're certainly due for one.  Bottom line, it's going to be a tough day.  

[Mark O]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Not sure anyone gives our "dismal worthless" FO enough credit for that one.

 

Good discussion...

I think actually the FO deserves credit for their work in free agency.    There have been many more hits than misses.   Their draft picks are a bit of a different story however, at least to this point.

[Tour2ma]

18 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

So, the more I research this game, the more it looks like it COULD be closer to 40-0 than not.

 

[Tour2ma]

9 minutes ago, Mark O said:

I think actually the FO deserves credit for their work in free agency.    There have been many more hits than misses.   Their draft picks are a bit of a different story however, at least to this point.

Attaboy #2... A New Hope...

[Canton Dawg]

7 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Based upon Britt's 2017 performance? Well, that's a rhetorical question isn't it? Based upon his 2016 performance? Absolutely...

Can you say the same about Gip?

 

We could talk about Britt’s 2013 season, you know the one where he caught a whopping 96 yards.

Or we can talk about Hue benching his azz this year...money well spent!

[gumby73]

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/11/16/16667272/browns-activate-corey-coleman-but-say-goodbye-to-once-hyped-kasen-williams  Our roster'd WR's are C.Coleman-R. Louis-S.Coats-B.Treggs-K.Britt-R.Higgins....Who here thinks Kasen Williams clears waivers than we get him on our PS? now bidding almost last in waiver wire claims.. Al Saunders please set-up to the pod em..we got a consensus question..  

[gumby73]

6 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/11/16/16667272/browns-activate-corey-coleman-but-say-goodbye-to-once-hyped-kasen-williams  

 This Mud's for you

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

We could talk about Britt’s 2013 season, you know the one where he caught a whopping 96 yards.

Or we can talk about Hue benching his azz this year...money well spent!

Way to hone in on the one season that's an anomaly in his career...

... and top it with an event after the decision. Hindsight is always impresses me.

[Canton Dawg]

8 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Way to hone in on the one season that's an anomaly in his career...

... and top it with an event after the decision. Hindsight is always impresses me.

Him being a locker room cancer isn't an anomaly. I'm sure that comes with no additional charge.

[mjp28]

21 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

Peppers is a non-factor due to where he plays, certainly no fault of his.

I would say overpaying a free agent is the norm in the NFL.

Is Gip worth $35 million? How about Kenny Britt...is he worth $32 million?

 

I don't know about that Gip but our Gip is easily worth that in today's money. 

It is shocking though what professional athletes get now, are they worth it? I remember just before the Indians caught fire the entire TEAM payroll was just over $8 million and future stars like A.Belle, Thome and Lofton making at or near the league minimum of $100,000......which is fabulous money even today for us working stiffs, more like a lottery hit. 

Now I believe that NFL (or NCAA?) players deserve to be well compensated more than any other sport ue to the deviating injuries and possible very short careers but really Gip and  Britt pulling that kind of cash, really?

And yes everything in life is relative like are Stallone and Swartenagger really worth $25 million for a few months work making a movie -BUT- are the ticket prices we stiffs pay also worth it, a family of 4 going to a pro football game Cost what now? 

Sorry but it just rubs me wrong....occasionally that is unless I hit tonight's Mega Millions. 

[mjp28]

Oh and Pittsburgh hung 40 on Tennessee last night 40-17, disgusting except I had A.Brown on my one FL team......42 points baby!

[Tour2ma]

42? I only got 37! Effin' yahoo FF...

 

I missed the game score by a whole 4 points... I was yelling for PTG to go for it up 20 late instead of kickin' a FG. But for the LeBeau factor, they might have...

[stillmotion]

23 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

 

Jimmah and the FO are inseparable when it comes to spending... so yes, you are talking about the FO... which in addition to the Collins dice-roll has spent on:

• the Bito extension,
• Zeitler,
• Joe's raise... while he was already under contract...
• Tretter... bit of a pattern in these first four...
• McCourty and Taylor... there.. got off the OL.

 

I'm not saying this FO hasn't done good things, they have. I was referring to Jimmy even being below the Cap back in the farmer days. The stats I pulled out were from back before the beginning of the season. I liked the Collins move and beefing up to O-Line. I guess my point is I'd like to see us in the next 3 years be one of the teams that spends the most Cap room. I don't want to continue to draft 14 rookies every year for 5 more years because we just don't have enough space for them. I thought the Joe Thomas resigning was just a PR move to keep him from retiring.

 

[mjp28]

4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

42? I only got 37! Effin' yahoo FF...

 

I missed the game score by a whole 4 points... I was yelling for PTG to go for it up 20 late instead of kickin' a FG. But for the LeBeau factor, they might have...

Well I think you can live with 37 in your reduced value FL......or mine is overvalued?  Darn commissioners screwing with the values. 

[calfoxwc]

well, I will be going to the Browns game vs the Jags, so I guarantee

a Browns win !

and that's a fact, Jag !

[wargograw]

 

On 11/14/2017 at 7:20 PM, stillmotion said:

no you're wrong (again)

You’re right. My bad on that one. It was the right move though. 

[stillmotion]

1 hour ago, wargograw said:

 

You’re right. My bad on that one. It was the right move though. 

Well you could argue Gipson wanted too much, which is an understandable argument. You could also argue that the Browns suck at resigning players we develop (past this FO and coach). You could also defend Sashi for the fact that we're a perennial loser, and it's hard to attract free agents if we're such a losing team in a cold climate. But, if we don't make any major signings this next offseason (I'm talking studs), and IF we're top 3 in cap leftover next season, It'll definitely raise a red flag to me that Jimmy is being a F#$%ing cheapskate. You can argue, "oh, he helped pay for the stadium", but he knows he'll get that money back, especially if he has $60 million per year in cap left over every single year.

Remember back in 2015 when Haslam said we wouldn't target free agents before the Sashi/Depo process and moneyball

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/161357/haslam-says-browns-wont-be-players-in-free-agency

Haslam said the reaction to the ticket price increase was as expected. He quipped that nobody calls to say thanks, and said he’s “probably the most sensitive person to raising ticket prices.”

yet Jimmy RAISED ticket prices back then.

My fight and argument is with Jimmy, because I think he's a shitty owner. I think the way he manages people sucks, and if he went with Hue over Sashi's head to get McCarron, then what does that tell you about him as an owner and a person.

[Unsympathetic]

On 11/15/2017 at 6:15 PM, stillmotion said:

spending more money usually results in getting better players. or you can keep ricardo louis and bryce treggs and go 1-24.

1) Pryor wasn't and isn't worth anything close to the money he's making. Same can and has been said about Britt.

Every catch both Britt and Pryor have made in a game this year [not in practice - those guys are nifty without pads] can be made by louis or treggs.  Record wouldn't be any different with the extra money on the roster.

spending more money does NOT translate to better outcomes.. it's money and other things... one factor is not the solution

2) You might want to look at the record and stats the Browns had when we had the most expensive defense in the league, oh so long ago.

[stillmotion]

1 hour ago, Unsympathetic said:

1) Pryor wasn't and isn't worth anything close to the money he's making. Same can and has been said about Britt.

Every catch both Britt and Pryor have made in a game this year [not in practice - those guys are nifty without pads] can be made by louis or treggs.  Record wouldn't be any different with the extra money on the roster.

spending more money does NOT translate to better outcomes.. it's money and other things... one factor is not the solution

2) You might want to look at the record and stats the Browns had when we had the most expensive defense in the league, oh so long ago.

1) Pryor isn't Julio Jones or AJ Green, is he? Quit trying to strawman my argument.

2) In 2015 the Browns had the 3rd most cap space available. 

Since Haslam has been owner

2013 - Browns rank 6th in cap space available - $13,975,965

2014 - Browns rank 2nd in cap space available - $21,392,977

2015 - Browns rank 3rd in cap space available - $22,119,840

After moneyball starts

2016 - Browns rank 1st in cap space available - $46,108,169

2017 - Browns rank 1st in cap space available - $62,310,269

Has any other team consistently spent so little and been a great contender? Pettine wasn't lying about not having enough talent. People can blame Hue, Pettine, Farmer, Sashi, but the guy writing the checks is free of any blame? Jimmy said we'd be very competitive "in 2018 and 2019" verbatim. He's 20-69 as an owner, and raised ticket prices with this product. Mark my words.... IF We're in the top 3 of cap space left available the next three straight years, we will not be a playoff caliber team. Jimmy is the only thing toxic about this team.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

[Nero]

4 hours ago, stillmotion said:

1) Pryor isn't Julio Jones or AJ Green, is he? Quit trying to strawman my argument.

2) In 2015 the Browns had the 3rd most cap space available. 

Since Haslam has been owner

2013 - Browns rank 6th in cap space available - $13,975,965

2014 - Browns rank 2nd in cap space available - $21,392,977

2015 - Browns rank 3rd in cap space available - $22,119,840

After moneyball starts

2016 - Browns rank 1st in cap space available - $46,108,169

2017 - Browns rank 1st in cap space available - $62,310,269

Has any other team consistently spent so little and been a great contender? Pettine wasn't lying about not having enough talent. People can blame Hue, Pettine, Farmer, Sashi, but the guy writing the checks is free of any blame? Jimmy said we'd be very competitive "in 2018 and 2019" verbatim. He's 20-69 as an owner, and raised ticket prices with this product. Mark my words.... IF We're in the top 3 of cap space left available the next three straight years, we will not be a playoff caliber team. Jimmy is the only thing toxic about this team.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

I'm not going to defend the salary cap approach. I've criticized it in other posts, and I think that things could have been done differently, mostly in FA and particulary with receivers. 

I'm going to try to explain what I think they might be doing. 

You get a team with losing record, and with many years of misery. First of all the things you can see in such a team is a 'losing spirit'. There are few who believe they can do great things with the team or they give up as soon as results start being bad every season. This has happened with many teams that through years have become 'retirement houses' for players who have already hit the top of their game and are in a downhill.

They rip off the team, and try to get a young team that grows together. I repeat, I'm not defending it, I think they should have kept more veterans. And as the players are young, they have rookie contracts, increasing the cap space. They make mistakes together, they lose together (they have done this greatly), they learn together. In FO eyes, this protects them, as they have put together another 'losing team', but much younger, so you can say that they can get better, and much cheaper, so you can say 'well, they suck but we're not spending much'. 

The same goes with the QB, they haven't drafted one in the first round because if you do it and fail, is an early ticket to be fired. Any Front Office which drafts in the first round a QB, links its destiny to him.

Once you have your new team's core set up, you can see what is missing and add it via FA, in a way that the new free agents can't screw your locker room.

I hope this changes and the FO becomes more aggresive as the defining years for the process come (year 3 and 4), aiming higher both in draft and FA, but for me what they have done, after studying it, makes some sense. I hope we don't sit over a 60 million cap space next year. 

And again, I'm not defending them, I'm trying to understand their approach.