The... I am batting (maybe alone) for the front office thread

[SD_Tom]

Astros also signed their franchise qb type player when they signed Verlander. 

[ballpeen]

7 minutes ago, SD_Tom said:

Astros also signed their franchise qb type player when they signed Verlander. 

 

7 minutes ago, SD_Tom said:

Astros also signed their franchise qb type player when they signed Verlander. 

Verlander did a great job, but he is far from that.

[Bigalow80]

Astros didn't "sign" verlander. They traded from their incredibly deep farm system which took years to develop, hence the 3 years of 100+ losses and trading away most of their veterans. Not to mention, all the young players developed together under one system and when the time was right to add veteran players such as Beltran, McCann and Verlander they had the depth and financial flexibility to sign or trade for whomever they wanted. Another team utilized the same exact philosophy a few years ago, they were called the Chicago Cubs. Hmmm..this process sounds eerily similar to what the Browns have SAID THEY ARE DOING FOR THE LAST 1.5 YEARS!!!!!! Yes, FB and Baseball are different sports, but the metrics themselves are fairly similar. The Browns aren't going to get stud players in every round they draft. But what they want are very good quality players to support and occasionally play at high levels. This is what you are seeing in guys like Nassib, Schobert, Kirksey, Calhoun, etc. They are not stars but they are showing very good potential once stars are added ie Garrett, Collins. 

Adam Berry is the talent evaluator, technically. Personally, I think he has done an excellent job. The "overall talent on this roster is significantly better than it was in the past 4 years. Everyone complains about the WR misses, but this is exactly why the browns have lots of draft picks. So when they miss, and every franchise does, it isn't a franchise killer. The biggest miss has been the Qb's but that falls directly on Hue. He was brought in here to evaluate the qb's. The team has said that numerous times, that his opinion is the deciding factor.  Yes, you could argue that the 1-23 record over the last 2 years as an indicator for not having talent on the roster. But Hue has blown least 3 games this year alone due to play calling and game management. This argument is completely different if the browns are 3-5 vs 0-8.

I do feel they need one final person in the room to make the decision. A Football guy so to speak whether it is manning or the guy from Carolina, I don't know the right answer. I think it would help break the tie but most importantly it would STOP THE HASLAMS FROM MEDDLING!! this is the biggest issue. Jimmah and Dee can not and should not have any say in who is on this fb team (outside of personal conduct stuff). PERIOD. If they fire this regime, it is the same old crap once again and they still don't realize they are part of the problem.

[Canton Dawg]

47 minutes ago, Bigalow80 said:

If they fire this regime, it is the same old crap once again and they still don't realize they are part of the problem.

News flash, it IS the same old crap once again.

[hoorta]

54 minutes ago, Bigalow80 said:

Astros didn't "sign" verlander. They traded from their incredibly deep farm system which took years to develop, hence the 3 years of 100+ losses and trading away most of their veterans. Not to mention, all the young players developed together under one system and when the time was right to add veteran players such as Beltran, McCann and Verlander they had the depth and financial flexibility to sign or trade for whomever they wanted. Another team utilized the same exact philosophy a few years ago, they were called the Chicago Cubs. Hmmm..this process sounds eerily similar to what the Browns have SAID THEY ARE DOING FOR THE LAST 1.5 YEARS!!!!!! Yes, FB and Baseball are different sports, but the metrics themselves are fairly similar. The Browns aren't going to get stud players in every round they draft. But what they want are very good quality players to support and occasionally play at high levels. This is what you are seeing in guys like Nassib, Schobert, Kirksey, Calhoun, etc. They are not stars but they are showing very good potential once stars are added ie Garrett, Collins. 

Adam Berry is the talent evaluator, technically. Personally, I think he has done an excellent job. The "overall talent on this roster is significantly better than it was in the past 4 years. Everyone complains about the WR misses, but this is exactly why the browns have lots of draft picks. So when they miss, and every franchise does, it isn't a franchise killer. The biggest miss has been the Qb's but that falls directly on Hue. He was brought in here to evaluate the qb's. The team has said that numerous times, that his opinion is the deciding factor.  Yes, you could argue that the 1-23 record over the last 2 years as an indicator for not having talent on the roster. But Hue has blown least 3 games this year alone due to play calling and game management. This argument is completely different if the browns are 3-5 vs 0-8.

I do feel they need one final person in the room to make the decision. A Football guy so to speak whether it is manning or the guy from Carolina, I don't know the right answer. I think it would help break the tie but most importantly it would STOP THE HASLAMS FROM MEDDLING!! this is the biggest issue. Jimmah and Dee can not and should not have any say in who is on this fb team (outside of personal conduct stuff). PERIOD. If they fire this regime, it is the same old crap once again and they still don't realize they are part of the problem.

Problem is- in football you don't have a "farm System" to trade assets from. You can trade players on your roster. & trading starters, lol releasing them, or allowing them to walk in FA only weakens it- like Mack, Schwartz, Haden, Travis Benjamin, and Tashaun Gipson. You've just created holes that you're trying to fill with all those bonus draft picks. Zero sum game, unless your goal was to have the youngest roster in the NFL. Latest case in point- the Patriots took less from the 49ers than we were willing to gift the Bengals for McCarron. And regarding Hue- he has no business evaluating QBs- not after RG III, Kessler that we took a couple rounds too high, Kizer (who's currently looking like a bust), and overvaluing McCarron. 

DePodesta should have stuck to baseball, stuck his foot in mouth royally when he said "we didn't think Wentz would be a top 20 QB in the NFL". Correct Paul- he's going to be top 5. The Eagles might send him and Sashi great big Christmas presents for screwing that one up royally. 

It's been said ad nauseum around here- the Browns have been such a big dumpster fire of late- it won't matter how much money you try and throw at the top FAs, they'll take less to play with a proven winner. 

Building through the draft is going to be a long painful process. We probably hit on our first three guys in the first round. Yay, but Garrett was a no-brainer.  Going to need Um 3\22 years at that rate to be a consistent winner. No Front Office in the history of the NFL has been given that long to turn things around. You'd have to have your head completely stuck in the sand to not realize the vultures are already circling over Lou Groza Boulevard. 

[hoorta]

Just now, Canton Dawg said:

News flash, it IS the same old crap once again.

We've been though a bunch of blowups, but our new and different approach is bordering on historically bad. They can save their jobs by winning (pick a number)of games out of the last 8.  

[Canton Dawg]

4 minutes ago, hoorta said:

We've been though a bunch of blowups, but our new and different approach is bordering on historically bad. They can save their jobs by winning (pick a number)of games out of the last 8.  

I attended my first Browns game in 1967, and I can honestly say I’ve never seen a worse team in my life than this one.

This team is bad on an epic level...please blow it up.

[wargograw]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:19 AM, stillmotion said:

Then pull up a valid response. Let's see a quote. 

Geez you're killing me. First off I already answered the question, both on this thread and others. I'm not responsible for you not being able to follow my points, my friend.

 

What you're asking me with your question is why we should keep Sashi. You may phrase it another way and think you're asking me something else, but you're not. And I told you why we should keep Sashi. As for why I think his plan will work, it's because he is loading the roster with talented young players and this has the makings of a very solid and stable roster once it gets some experience. I like his draft savvy as far as all the trades and I like that he's gotten draft value for the bums we had to get rid of (Erving, Mingo, Gilbert, the punter, etc.). 

[stillmotion]

1 hour ago, wargograw said:

Geez you're killing me. First off I already answered the question, both on this thread and others. I'm not responsible for you not being able to follow my points, my friend.

 

What you're asking me with your question is why we should keep Sashi. You may phrase it another way and think you're asking me something else, but you're not. And I told you why we should keep Sashi. As for why I think his plan will work, it's because he is loading the roster with talented young players and this has the makings of a very solid and stable roster once it gets some experience. I like his draft savvy as far as all the trades and I like that he's gotten draft value for the bums we had to get rid of (Erving, Mingo, Gilbert, the punter, etc.). 

- How are you sure under the current situation the plan will likely work?

He's made solid moves, and he's made moves that are questionable. However, I think a change is needed and We need to add ANOTHER guy to the mix. I don't see how it would hurt us. If Hue and Sashi really are fighting a lot now, I don't see how they can co-exist if they have a different idea of the plan. If they aren't fighting and everything is fine (which seems unlikely), then hopefully we'll make some better picks next year. I've heard a report from The Browns reddit and Peter King that he had information that Jimmy wants to get rid of Sashi after this season and keep Hue. https://twitter.com/wfnycraig/status/928992242932600832. By No means do I like this idea, I just think we need a person for the front office and coaches to work with that has experience with talent. Someone that wants us to win and has a passion, and can help us get a decent QB. Sashi and Depo don't have the right amount of experience drafting, and another dude who knows what he's doing would help our team, and the "process" succeed.  However, I think both Hue and Sashi are too arrogant to admit they are in over their heads. Sashi with drafting and Hue with controlling the OC duties and being HC.

[TexasAg1969]

3 hours ago, stillmotion said:

- How are you sure under the current situation the plan will likely work?

Sashi with drafting and Hue with controlling the OC duties and being HC.

I don't understand why anyone can argue about adding to what we have and not blowing the whole thing up if you really want to give it the best chance to work. We already know blowing up does not work so what the hell. Improve the "process" by adding to the mix and see what happens through at least the minimum 3 years. If it still looks like another 1 or 2 win season next year then you can blow it all to hell and ship it to Mexico City.

[thenew23]

When this group got hired, I said give them 4 years NO MATTER WHAT.

It's hard to harness your emotions and think that logically that is probably what is best for this franchise, long-term...

[BaconHound]

47 minutes ago, thenew23 said:

When this group got hired, I said give them 4 years NO MATTER WHAT.

It's hard to harness your emotions and think that logically that is probably what is best for this franchise, long-term...

I agree with Hue & Co. but 3 of the 4 Coleman, Garrett, Peppers and Njoku need to take steps forward and Sashi needs ti bring in more real talent this draft to get year 4 IMO.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

The same old Shmucking idiots saying the same old Shmucking Sheet.

[wargograw]

6 hours ago, stillmotion said:

- How are you sure under the current situation the plan will likely work?

He's made solid moves, and he's made moves that are questionable. However, I think a change is needed and We need to add ANOTHER guy to the mix. I don't see how it would hurt us. If Hue and Sashi really are fighting a lot now, I don't see how they can co-exist if they have a different idea of the plan. If they aren't fighting and everything is fine (which seems unlikely), then hopefully we'll make some better picks next year. I've heard a report from The Browns reddit and Peter King that he had information that Jimmy wants to get rid of Sashi after this season and keep Hue. https://twitter.com/wfnycraig/status/928992242932600832. By No means do I like this idea, I just think we need a person for the front office and coaches to work with that has experience with talent. Someone that wants us to win and has a passion, and can help us get a decent QB. Sashi and Depo don't have the right amount of experience drafting, and another dude who knows what he's doing would help our team, and the "process" succeed.  However, I think both Hue and Sashi are too arrogant to admit they are in over their heads. Sashi with drafting and Hue with controlling the OC duties and being HC.

Everyone is going to have questionable moves mixed in with the solid ones. Especially a first time GM. Sashi is a learner. He’s already been good and he will only get better. 

 

I don’t think adding a generic “guy” does anything when we have football guys all over the FO. With regards to football evaluations, Sashi is merely the one that figures out who everyone likes and the best compromise/consensus. And by the way, as with animals, as with marriages, as with any organization: anything with two heads is a monster. Either cut one off or put it behind glass somewhere and charge people to come stare at it. 

 

If you think there’s power issues NOW, wait til you add another authority figure. And FTR, I don’t mind the Hue/Sashi fighting (insofar as it even exists). That’s what two people do. It happens. When I fought with my brothers, my parents’ solution wasn’t to add another one.

 

Hue and Sashi are adults. They can work it out. OR the one with the better performance can stay while the other one goes. And since that’s impossible to evaluate right now, give it another year. Back to my original point. 

[BaconHound]

12 hours ago, wargograw said:

Everyone is going to have questionable moves mixed in with the solid ones. Especially a first time GM. Sashi is a learner. He’s already been good and he will only get better. 

 

I don’t think adding a generic “guy” does anything when we have football guys all over the FO. With regards to football evaluations, Sashi is merely the one that figures out who everyone likes and the best compromise/consensus. And by the way, as with animals, as with marriages, as with any organization: anything with two heads is a monster. Either cut one off or put it behind glass somewhere and charge people to come stare at it. 

 

If you think there’s power issues NOW, wait til you add another authority figure. And FTR, I don’t mind the Hue/Sashi fighting (insofar as it even exists). That’s what two people do. It happens. When I fought with my brothers, my parents’ solution wasn’t to add another one.

 

Hue and Sashi are adults. They can work it out. OR the one with the better performance can stay while the other one goes. And since that’s impossible to evaluate right now, give it another year. Back to my original point. 

For all the Doom & Gloomers, of whom I'm one, I think we should all agree on this.  We can keep firing people within the first 2 years.  That's not going to keep me from being a whiny b1tch but they should all be back next year.

[Flugel]

On 10/30/2017 at 11:33 PM, LondonBrown said:

I will start this by saying that I still completely do, 100%, agree with the current front office approach to changing the Browns. I know that’s an unpopular opinion and I know that lots here will either stop reading through disillusion or plain anger, but it is how I feel.

After 2015 the Browns tore this entire football club down, and I mean down, completely. It wasn’t just a regime change like has happened in the NFL ad nauseam, it was a deliberate wipe out of almost everything that had been before. I bet they even changed the toothpaste in dressing rooms.

As of the start of the 2016 draft the Browns were an expansion team, the fans don’t believe that, but it IS what they believe in Berea, even if they’d never admit it publicly.

So, onto what they’ve done since, start by admitting to yourself that no FO is ever going to hit on every pick, every trade, every waiver or every cut. It doesn’t happen here and it doesn’t happen in NE. The problem here is when you tear it all down every decision is magnified, why cut Haden and watch TY Hilton get 254 yards in one game? That’s because it is IRRELEVANT. One big play, or two, or three, is not why Haslam put this FO in place and it isn’t why Podesta is here to apparently ruin his reputation.

This is and was a 3, 4 or 5 draft “process”, I don’t care how many of you hate that word, but it is a fact. It’s an expansion team. They have already put together a good defense you can see it on the field. If the offense keeps them off it they will be even better, which brings me to the main issue, our offense. The line is fixed already if all fit, no question.  

We don’t have a QB right now, they know it and the fans certainly know it. But guess what?.... they aren’t stuck with what they have, they will draft one next year like they have the last two because they know that you can never stop looking. Shoving a second and a third on one and yet keeping lots of picks was deliberate, they took chances.

The roster is getting better, and once they hit the QB, a lot will be in place. They are doing what they set out to do two years ago. And I hope Jimmy lets them they carry on with it.      

I used to feel this way. That said, it's a passing era and this FO couldn't be any worse at bringing in decent help at QB and WR despite how much spending money they had access to and how high up the pecking order they were for a guy like Carson Wentz.  When we pay 19 million $ for the Wizard of Os and 12 million $ for a disinterested Kenny Britt while penny penching other areas - WTF?  And the FA Center we added gets blown backward constantly as he did in GB during their slow start in 2016.  GB coincidentally improved when Tretter went on IR in 2016 to the extent Aaron Rodgers no longer had to tell fans and media to relax.  Last year, Crow averaged 4.8 yards per carry - this year he's been in the low 3's most of the year.

The only part of our team that is clearly better is our Front 7 at defending the run.  An aging vet like McCourty had a nice start after being phased out in TN's plans/scheme in 2016.  That said, I'm not a big fan of Jamar Taylor at all.

So, we have bigger draft volumes and multiple upper round picks; but I still don't see any football experts with criteria to tell the difference between a Kessler and a Prescott or a Wentz vrs a trade down for more guys with much less overall impact.  Even though Watson had a similar freak injury to Teddy B in non-contact practice - Houston's scoring offense was highest its been in years with Watson QBing them.  We could have had him at #12 vrs the Dial-Turnover we've been gagging on in round 2.

I used to always be positive to a fault but we're 1-23 under Legally Blind.  I'm done buying Sashi's quick sand until I see something, ANYTHING, to hang my hat on.  If you ever want to feel stupid, challenge someone to a game of chess (surrender all your pieces but your King and Pawns but allow your opponent to be full strength).  Let me know how easy it is to attack your opponent. It isn't.  Sashi wants us to pretend we're training the next Troy Aikman so all the growing pains will be worth it.

It all starts with Jimmy - who leaves a lot to be desired with his hiring criteria.

[BaconHound]

17 minutes ago, Flugel said:

I used to feel this way. That said, it's a passing era and this FO couldn't be any worse at bringing in decent help at QB and WR despite how much spending money they had access to and how high up the pecking order they were for a guy like Carson Wentz.  When we pay 19 million $ for the Wizard of Os and 12 million $ for a disinterested Kenny Britt while penny penching other areas - WTF?  And the FA Center we added gets blown backward constantly as he did in GB during their slow start in 2016.  GB coincidentally improved when Tretter went on IR in 2016 to the extent Aaron Rodgers no longer had to tell fans and media to relax.  Last year, Crow averaged 4.8 yards per carry - this year he's been in the low 3's most of the year.

The only part of our team that is clearly better is our Front 7 at defending the run.  An aging vet like McCourty had a nice start after being phased out in TN's plans/scheme in 2016.  That said, I'm not a big fan of Jamar Taylor at all.

So, we have bigger draft volumes and multiple upper round picks; but I still don't see any football experts with criteria to tell the difference between a Kessler and a Prescott or a Wentz vrs a trade down for more guys with much less overall impact.  Even though Watson had a similar freak injury to Teddy B in non-contact practice - Houston's scoring offense was highest its been in years with Watson QBing them.  We could have had him at #12 vrs the Dial-Turnover we've been gagging on in round 2.

I used to always be positive to a fault but we're 1-23 under Legally Blind.  I'm done buying Sashi's quick sand until I see something, ANYTHING, to hang my hat on.  If you ever want to feel stupid, challenge someone to a game of chess (surrender all your pieces but your King and Pawns but allow your opponent to be full strength).  Let me know how easy it is to attack your opponent. It isn't.  Sashi wants us to pretend we're training the next Troy Aikman so all the growing pains will be worth it.

It all starts with Jimmy - who leaves a lot to be desired with his hiring criteria.

Welcome aboard!

[Tour2ma]

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

I still don't see any football experts with criteria to tell the difference between a Kessler and a Prescott or a Wentz vrs a trade down...

The player evaluators are called "scouts" and, no, you can't see them...

The "vs.tradedown" becomes a consideration only when the scouts are not able to agree/consense with the other evaluation tools on the worth of a prospect... any prospect... commensurate with the pick available.

In the case of a FA, it is worth commensurate with price.

[D Bone]

2 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

The "vs.tradedown" becomes a consideration only when the scouts are not able to agree/consense with the other evaluation tools on the worth of a prospect... any prospect... commensurate with the pick available.

So T, curious as to who you think makes the pick when the inevitable happens that there is no consensus? Someone has to write a players name on a card and turn it in to the NFL before the clock ticks to zero?

Someone has to have the final say, and it's my understanding that it's Sashi...... 

[Tour2ma]

5 minutes ago, D Bone said:

So T, curious as to who you think makes the pick when the inevitable happens that there is no consensus? Someone has to write a players name on a card and turn it in to the NFL before the clock ticks to zero?

Someone has to have the final say, and it's my understanding that it's Sashi...... 

Again.... when there is no consensus player worth the pick, the pick is traded. It is really can be that easy. It is also no different than any FO who has "the guy" you so long for... the guys we've had from Farmer to Chuckles to Holmgren.... guys like Ozzie... guys like Bill... etc... etc.

Now if no trade partner can be found? Then it's the next guy on the board... even if you believe he can be had later in the draft. But generally speaking high picks are not hard to trade,

[D Bone]

Just now, Tour2ma said:

Again.... when there is no consensus player worth the pick, the pick is traded.

It is really that easy.

Wow..... In my everyday life for 49yrs I know how hard it is to get just three people to agree on anything, much less 5, 8, 11.... Guess we should look for many more trades throughout the life of The Process.

FWIW, it was Sashi himself who said he had 'final say' when Hue was hired/introduced in what seems like a lifetime ago.... 

[BaconHound]

37 minutes ago, D Bone said:

Wow..... In my everyday life for 49yrs I know how hard it is to get just three people to agree on anything, much less 5, 8, 11.... Guess we should look for many more trades throughout the life of The Process.

FWIW, it was Sashi himself who said he had 'final say' when Hue was hired/introduced in what seems like a lifetime ago.... 

Maybe you've identified the real problem.  Nobody makes decisions, and suffers the consequences, in the Browns organization.  

[stillmotion]

2 minutes ago, BaconHound said:

Maybe you've identified the real problem.  Nobody makes decisions, and suffers the consequences, in the Browns organization.  

no one seems even remotely worried about their job. even kenny britt.

[BaconHound]

Just now, stillmotion said:

no one seems even remotely worried about their job. even kenny britt.

At least with Pettine there was a crazy look and a depressed look.  The current regime has a Socky, "don't worry we got this" facade. 

[stillmotion]

Just now, BaconHound said:

At least with Pettine there was a crazy look and a depressed look.  The current regime has a Socky, "don't worry we got this" facade. 

Well, Pettine hated losing more then Hue. I swear, if Hue gives that stupid "I came here to win" speech that he gives every single week again, I'll lose it.

[TexasAg1969]

16 minutes ago, stillmotion said:

Well, Pettine hated losing more then Hue. I swear, if Hue gives that stupid "I came here to win" speech that he gives every single week again, I'll lose it.

He should throw a curveball, "I came here to lose until I start winning."

[BaconHound]

2 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

He should throw a curveball, "I came here to lose until I start winning."

"I have perfected the art of losing"...

[TexasAg1969]

6 minutes ago, BaconHound said:

"I have perfected the art of losing"...

I feel a book deal coming out of this, "The Art Of Losing" by Hue Jackson and Sushi Brown

[stillmotion]

13 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I feel a book deal coming out of this, "The Art Of Losing" by Hue Jackson and Sushi Brown

"I lost" by Hue Jackson "How to con a redneck" by Sashi Brown

[Mark O]

Well with the Giants being ass raped by the 49ers....we are very nearly on the clock for the #1 overall pick.