The... I am batting (maybe alone) for the front office thread

[Dutch Oven]

I think the most frustrating thing to consider is a QB taken in the upcoming draft might have a worse supporting cast NOW than hypothetically Wentz would have had two years ago...

At best, Thomas is a few years older now, coming off a season-ending injury. RB could have a big hole if Crowell isn't brought back (which I expect). WR is a vast wasteland. I am optimistic about Devalve and Njoku though.

This front office in the last two years, if they were waiting to go all-in on a franchise QB now, did a poor job getting the foundation around him set up.

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I don't know Buffalo Bob. Howdy (Jimmy) looks mighty shaky. And the coaching/FO look more and more like Clarabell's Clowns every game.

lol... Well... I have no issues defending the FO all day long, but Hue? Much harder...

Sad thing is that Hue has made it hard by trying to do two jobs.

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I think the most frustrating thing to consider is a QB taken in the upcoming draft might have a worse supporting cast NOW than hypothetically Wentz would have had two years ago...

At best, Thomas is a few years older now, coming off a season-ending injury. RB could have a big hole if Crowell isn't brought back (which I expect). WR is a vast wasteland. I am optimistic about Devalve and Njoku though.

This front office in the last two years, if they were waiting to go all-in on a franchise QB now, did a poor job getting the foundation around him set up.

I assume that by selecting "two years ago" you are magically bringing Wentz together with our 2015 starters, rather than the 2016 squad which times up with Carson's rookie season. Certainly wistful, if not wishful, there.

The 2018 OL with a restored JT is vastly better than 2016. This is your "foundation"... and it's a sturdy one... with decent depth to boot.

I think Crow will boil down to "valuation" and I don't think retaining him is a given. In addition to the Draft, there's a pretty good list of FAs coming this off-season.

WR? Another good FA list, including a humbled TP, plus Josh and a healthy Corey has the potential turns that room around quickly.

Agree on TE... your 2015 choice obviously brings Barn's miracle year into the discussion, but I'll still roll with our kids going forward.

[Flugel]

On 11/13/2017 at 8:51 PM, Canton Dawg said:

The NY Giants are 1-8 with their 2nd year HC Ben McAdoo.

Anyone willing to wager that WON’T get shitcanned at the end of the season?

I say he’s as good as gone...any takers? 

Interesting point CD. He sure looks like a Dead Man Walking just 1 season after going 11-5.

IMO, it often boils down to progress vrs regression. If there's enough regression to where a considerable portion of the veteran buy-in is lost - it's hard to save a staff that lost the team.  That seems to be the case with the Giants.

Think about some of the things we've seen here. In 2007, we went 10-6.  The next year we only won 4 or 5 games and our HC and FO were fired.

In 2014, the 7-4 start in Cleveland in spite of numerous injuries behind a rookie Head Coach was a GREAT story that had many of us thinking we finally turned the corner once and for all.  When you're winning like that the players are buying in and the fans are high five'n. Unfortunately, over the next 21 games we only went 3-18.  When you have that kind of a drop off - there's also going to be a similar drop off in the number of players buying into the coaching staff.  The Head Coach and FO were fired.

And the new HC and FO are off to a 1-24 start.   We're almost as good as we were in 1999 and 2000... 

[stillmotion]

41 minutes ago, Flugel said:

And the new HC and FO are off to a 1-24 start.   We're almost as good as we were in 1999 and 2000... 

Jimmy sold us on the process and said we'd be competitive in 2018 and 2019 for sure. Let's hold him to that. If he's 60 million under the cap or more again next year Flugel, then that means the Browns don't have the intention to add free agent talent yet. We said we wanted to "build through the draft", but we desperately need someone besides Andrew Berry picking the talent. Otherwise, we could end up in a process where our franchise is considered toxic, and no one wants to go here. Also, the young guys we've signed would look to bounce elsewhere after their rookie contracts are up if we do not start winning next year. But what is considered winning? Is 5 games with this current regime considered a winning season or progress in 2018? Better yet, if we don't win 8 games in 2019, is that considered a failure?

[Tour2ma]

Andrew Berry is picking the talent? If so, then what do all his scouts do all day?

[Westside Steve]

23 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Andrew Berry is picking the talent? If so, then what do all his scouts do all day?

I realize you're playing the part of defense attorney here but just in case anybody could agree on the fact that maybe the drafting and cutting of players has been less than stellar is no one responsible? Do we just throw up our hands and say there's nothing we can do about it? Somebody must have hired these Scouts. Somebody must have put Berry as their coordinator at least right?

Seriously if we had two or three of these guys competing for Rookie of the Year would nobody take credit for that?

WSS

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

... less than stellar...

You just described about 28 FOs...

Overall, to date I won't argue ours out of that group... despite the circumstantial evidence that was the 2016 draft... but for 2017... no, we don't belong.

One thing different about out 2016 and 2017 drafts? Our scouting crew... Remember just prior to the 2016 draft we released a bunch of contracted scouts and began to bring in their replacements. At some point in 2018 we will release and replace more. How many? No idea... but I'd guess fewer than 2017 because of a lack of time to establish their track record plus the fact that we had a very improved draft in 2017.

The evidence is there, Your Honor... you just have to see it... despite justice being blind...

[Unsympathetic]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

anybody could agree on the fact that maybe the drafting and cutting of players has been less than stellar is no one responsible

1) What, exactly, is the standard by which "stellar" is defined? ZERO fo in the league have an 80% hit rate on each pick in the draft. 

Newsome in BAL has never drafted a good WR in his entire career.. and their most recent first-rounder Perriman is going to get not re-signed at the end of this season after being their round1 just a couple seasons ago.  Going by the standards you want to apply to Sashi, you'd demand his head on a pike.

No savior is coming who will hit 100% - get over it.  This is NOT a defense of sashi ----- this is you having an unrealistic expectation of EVERY potential browns leadership team.

2) Show me the total moves since Sashi was hired and then show me the moves you think he could have done better.  "Less than stellar" is deliberately vague.

[Westside Steve]

8 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

You just described about 28 FOs...

Overall, to date I won't argue ours out of that group... despite the circumstantial evidence that was the 2016 draft... but for 2017... no, we don't belong.

One thing different about out 2016 and 2017 drafts? Our scouting crew... Remember just prior to the 2016 draft we released a bunch of contracted scouts and began to bring in their replacements. At some point in 2018 we will release and replace more. How many? No idea... but I'd guess fewer than 2017 because of a lack of time to establish their track record plus the fact that we had a very improved draft in 2017.

The evidence is there, Your Honor... you just have to see it... despite justice being blind...

Actually I was just being polite with the 'less-than-stellar' description. Sure maybe 28 other teams could make that claim but 31 other teams cannot claim the distinction of the worst team in the league.

Your evidence, counselor, seems to be along the lines of the sun got in my eyes or the ball took a bad hop.

Is it unfair to expect at least one of all those High pics to be considered a homerun?

WSS

[Unsympathetic]

3 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Is it unfair to expect at least one of all those High pics to be considered a homerun?

Garrett is a homerun. Glad you think the FO is a success!

[Westside Steve]

11 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Garrett is a homerun. Glad you think the FO is a success!

Really? Well great. What with the injuries it might be a little early to call him home run but at least they haven't fallen on their butt with the consensus best player in the draft that we took at number one.

But good luck scoring your Super Bowl tickets.

WSS

[Flugel]

22 hours ago, stillmotion said:

Jimmy sold us on the process and said we'd be competitive in 2018 and 2019 for sure. Let's hold him to that. If he's 60 million under the cap or more again next year Flugel, then that means the Browns don't have the intention to add free agent talent yet. We said we wanted to "build through the draft", but we desperately need someone besides Andrew Berry picking the talent. Otherwise, we could end up in a process where our franchise is considered toxic, and no one wants to go here. Also, the young guys we've signed would look to bounce elsewhere after their rookie contracts are up if we do not start winning next year. But what is considered winning? Is 5 games with this current regime considered a winning season or progress in 2018? Better yet, if we don't win 8 games in 2019, is that considered a failure?

Thanks for the reply.  I'm learning the hard way not to trust the we need to be patient and build through the draft stuff.  We're partying like it's 1999 with that one and it's time to see it before I can believe it. Phil Savage told us the reason he was here was to build through the draft and refrain from the FA overspending.   The next I know, we traded away day 1 (and the 1st 3 rounds of the 2008 draft that netted only 1 keeper in the entire draft - Ahtyba Rubin). In 2009, we were only scheduled for 4 draft picks - which isn't exactly the best deck of cards for the next HC to walk into.  And, btw, we didn't even have a GM hired yet which would promise turbulence to follow when Mike Holmgren was hired to sleep in later Vampires a little more than a year later.  I could go on and on and on. I've continued to assure myself it's going to be different this time while the downwinds of Ghoolie heavily scented with moonshine out of Memphis delivered the potty mouth Shakespeare "beware the Ides of told you so..."   

And, here we are out-thinking our selves once again with the QB and WR positions in the draft.  The 2 QBs we've drafted are Kessler at the top of round 3 and Kizer at the top of round 1 when we were in position to draft Carson Wentz and DeShaun Watson at #12.  I don't give a crap about who in here thought they would be good or bad - all I know is what I saw about what 2 guys were the hottest passers on offenses that were disappointing the year before they arrived.   YES, I know Watson got injured just as easily as Teddy B in a non-contact practice session but he was throwing anywhere from 3-5 TD passes per week on a team that could never get that out of Brock Ostrich the year before. Houston averaged 34 points per game with their rookie QB and they're averaging 9 points a game with the alternative. 

We've been watching the hocus pocus to land more draft picks but when we're NOT drafting the Khalil Macks, Derek Carrs, Carson Wentz, DeShaun Watsons for the Johnny Manziels, Justin Gilberts, Corey Colemans, etc - it gets right down to WHO are we taking.  In this passing era, the 2 positions that look weakest here are QB and WR. It's hard to get pumped up about either position.  The only thing we can hang our hat on is our front 7 is playing well against the run.  That said, when we get to the congested area of the red zone - our QB looks like he has a blindfold on while he's throwing darts. I think he's leading the league in turnovers.   This has been really frustrating because we've been in position to make all the right moves and all we seem to be doing is repeating history with our volume of bad picks. And I'm still reading how wonderful it is we're saving $; while we don't waste a second to offer a 19 million $ contract to Brock Ostrich and a 12 million $ contract to Kenny Britt. 

Last but not least, the FO guy we brought in from Indy was the same knucklehead that drafted WR Phillip Dorsett in round 1 in lieu of protecting their 1st overall pick in the pocket getting killed every year.  Who's the "football" guy in our front office that I can get confident in about our QB and WR position that ranks dead last out of 32 teams as we head into year 3?   I WISH all we had to do was fire Hue - that said, all we'd be doing is firing a guy who has chosen to be an OC at the expense of being a HC.  Where's the promise in 1-24 football?   Where's the promise in the willingness to penny pinch most positions while there's no hesitation to treat the Britts and Brock O to 31 million $ of gotta have?  All the years of being positive and showing up with a game face since the late 60s has me in my early 50s wondering if I'll ever see a playoff game again in Cleveland. 

[Canton Dawg]

16 hours ago, Flugel said:

Interesting point CD. He sure looks like a Dead Man Walking just 1 season after going 11-5.

IMO, it often boils down to progress vrs regression. If there's enough regression to where a considerable portion of the veteran buy-in is lost - it's hard to save a staff that lost the team.  That seems to be the case with the Giants.

Think about some of the things we've seen here. In 2007, we went 10-6.  The next year we only won 4 or 5 games and our HC and FO were fired.

In 2014, the 7-4 start in Cleveland in spite of numerous injuries behind a rookie Head Coach was a GREAT story that had many of us thinking we finally turned the corner once and for all.  When you're winning like that the players are buying in and the fans are high five'n. Unfortunately, over the next 21 games we only went 3-18.  When you have that kind of a drop off - there's also going to be a similar drop off in the number of players buying into the coaching staff.  The Head Coach and FO were fired.

And the new HC and FO are off to a 1-24 start.   We're almost as good as we were in 1999 and 2000... 

As of last week, Vegas odds have it that as few as 4 to as many as 8 NFL HC’s will be shitcanned this year.

The top 4 most likely to get fired are:

Paganno

Fox

McAdoo

Jackson.

[Canton Dawg]

23 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Garrett is a homerun. Glad you think the FO is a success!

With his limited amount of playing time, I would say he looks promising.

Calling him a homerun is a stretch.

[Tour2ma]

Homerun determination includes longevity as well as excellence. I wouldn't put Myles in that category based upon his resume to date. But I would give him a ground-rule triple... in fact I'd invent that for him.

McCourty was definitely a homerun FA signing... even clearer cut than the trade/sign maneuver named Collins.

Others I think have already shown to be triple worthy with a chance of taking home...

• Shockingly the first name I think of is Joe Schobert. Still not a complete MLB due to pass coverage, but 5th in the league in tackles? Who saw that coming?
• Shon Coleman... and not just because I told you so... all last year... from the draft thru Week 17... when you got a peek.
• Kindred is close... might have to stop him at second for now.

Honestly... that's about it for third. Bunch more doubles that have potential with time and better circumstances.

• None a better example than Njoku... you can see him coming.
• Also Drango springs to mind as he's now performing in his second fill-in performance.
• Corey C is here as well... really... can't we pad up the backside of his gloves?
• Nassib, Ogunjobi and Covey are in here standing up as well.

Bunch more singles, but what average fan cares about singles? Just not sexy... chicks dig the long ball*.

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________

* after 4 hours cal 9-1-1...

[Westside Steve]

I expect players in the first round to contribute at a pretty high level. I expect players taken in the second round to contribute at an above-average level. I expect free agents to perform at a high level.

Ingevity might be a factor in a year or two.

As long as we don't clean house and start over.

WSS

[Tour2ma]

49 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Ingevity might be a factor in a year or two.

Even with out the typo this would have been quote worthy...

[wargograw]

5 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

I expect players in the first round to contribute at a pretty high level. I expect players taken in the second round to contribute at an above-average level. I expect free agents to perform at a high level.

Ingevity might be a factor in a year or two.

As long as we don't clean house and start over.

WSS

So maybe we should wait and evaluate then?

[Westside Steve]

Just now, wargograw said:

So maybe we should wait and evaluate then?

Of course we should. Just pointing out that we suck worse than any other team in the league on our way to sucking worse than any other team in the history of the league.

I watch every game and cheer for the Browns. I hate almost every other team in the league and the ones that I don't hate I hate when they play against the Browns. Just pointing out that this failure seems unprecedented to me. Maybe you are 100% correct and the bean counter, the owners dumbass wife and the baseball jag off have everything under control.

I'll be glad to eat my words when that happens.

WSS

[wargograw]

Ok, why do you have to again point out A. what everyone knows already and B. what you've already "pointed out" about 100 times? Yes, our team is not winning. We know.

[Westside Steve]

41 minutes ago, wargograw said:

Ok, why do you have to again point out A. what everyone knows already and B. what you've already "pointed out" about 100 times? Yes, our team is not winning. We know.

Sorry Pollyanna. This must be the only point that's ever been repeated more than once on this board.

You're so blindly optimistic you make Po g sounds like Lewis Black.

WSS

[Dutch Oven]

wargo, at this point, is just trolling.

[Westside Steve]

 

 

 

Okay ladies I guess you're right.

WSS

[wargograw]

2 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Sorry Pollyanna. This must be the only point that's ever been repeated more than once on this board.

You're so blindly optimistic you make Po g sounds like Lewis Black.

WSS

Can you go ahead and list other facts about other teams while you're at it? I'm looking forward to such interesting information as "the Cowboys are from Texas." "The Eagles play in Philadelphia." "The Titans are 6-4." Boy, those are some real stimulating discussion-starters.

[wargograw]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

wargo, at this point, is just trolling.

No, I'm not.

[Westside Steve]

2 hours ago, wargograw said:

No, I'm not.

 

[nickers]

2 hours ago, wargograw said:

No, I'm not.

Yes you are , Faggot!

[D Bone]

I guess the owners of the Browns weren't told that they should expect to lose all but a single game in the first two years of The Process? War should set 'em straight.......

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/11/jason_mccourty_says_haslams_ad.html

[flyingfooldoug]

Instead of anal ytics and numerology, I'm all for Shamanology.

 Go find a tribal Shaman in Africa, bring him over and put him in charge of the team. I mean what part of witch doctor for GM  can go wrong?

[Dutch Oven]

7 hours ago, nickers said:

Yes you are , Faggot!

You are quite the wordsmith, aren't you?