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LondonBrown

The... I am batting (maybe alone) for the front office thread

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1 hour ago, cdl15 said:

I just don't see qb talent in this draft any better than Kiser. No franchise in football would give up on Kiser after 9 games. If he plays like he has last 2 games. Browns will win a few games and Kiser will be good to go next year.

Interesting.    While I do not discount your opinion, I would like to see what some of the so called "professionals"  would think about your suggestion....that Kizer is as good or better than anyone coming out this next draft.  Particularly considering that some have said they think this could be the best QB draft since like the 1983 draft....or at least 2004.

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37 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Interesting.    While I do not discount your opinion, I would like to see what some of the so called "professionals"  would think about your suggestion....that Kizer is as good or better than anyone coming out this next draft.  Particularly considering that some have said they think this could be the best QB draft since like the 1983 draft....or at least 2004.

Where did you read that? I guess I am not seeing that. None of these guys have jumped in front of the pack to this point. Darnold has a ton of hype but that seems to have cooled. Coupled with him talking about staying another year.

Has anybody eyeballed Rosen? Allen has been pretty ‘meh’ in the 3 games of him I have watched. Big arm and accuracy issues. Please not that show again.

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25 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

Where did you read that? I guess I am not seeing that. None of these guys have jumped in front of the pack to this point. Darnold has a ton of hype but that seems to have cooled. Coupled with him talking about staying another year.

Has anybody eyeballed Rosen? Allen has been pretty ‘meh’ in the 3 games of him I have watched. Big arm and accuracy issues. Please not that show again.

 

It was something that ESPN said last year and that's where Gipper gets his information. 

 

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38 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

Where did you read that? I guess I am not seeing that. None of these guys have jumped in front of the pack to this point. Darnold has a ton of hype but that seems to have cooled. Coupled with him talking about staying another year.

Has anybody eyeballed Rosen? Allen has been pretty ‘meh’ in the 3 games of him I have watched. Big arm and accuracy issues. Please not that show again.

cdl15 made the suggestion in like 3 posts above.  Didn't you read that?

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13 minutes ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

 

It was something that ESPN said last year and that's where Gipper gets his information. 

 

And you get your information directly tubed into  your sphincter from aliens?  

Or, if not there, where do you get your info?   Do you have no job and are independently wealthy such that you can go around to all the NFL camps and get inside information on all NFL teams?  Does God come to you and give you your information in visions? 

I get my info from all the sources that all fans get their info:  watching TV, ESPN, Fox sports.  Newspapers, websites etc.  

And, as I said....the proposition that  A.  Kizer is better than anyone coming out....came from the above comment by CDL15   The proposition that this next draft class of QB maybe the best since forever came from....well.....everywhere and everyone. 

You are welcome to disagree with all of that.....and you are welcome to identify the sources of your information that leads to your belief. But, I doubt that you really have any different or better sources than any of the rest of us.  

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57 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

cdl15 made the suggestion in like 3 posts above.  Didn't you read that?

Sometimes I just skim and must have missed it. Have you (or anyone else) watched Rosen so far this year? I haven’t seen much PAC 12 outside of some USC games.

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Rosen and Darnold are the two best I have watched this year. But Rosen has absolutely nothing for a defense so he's always under pressure to score every time they have the ball. They play this Sat. against one another and I think it would be well worth recording for any Browns fan to watch in detail. ABC TV 800 pm eastern.

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I haven't seen a lot from Rosen or Darnold.  A bit here, a bit there.   Rosen has looked better than Darnold in what I have seen.

I have seen a bit of Rudolph...and he has looked good.  He has the same problem as Rosen.......he puts 52 points up...and the team loses by 10!!

And last week vs. Iowa St.  he has to put up 49 to win. the other team scoring 42.

In fact, these are the points he has put up this year:

59, 44, 59, 31, 41, 59, 50, 52, 49....and 13! (but...they won that game...13-10 over Texas)

For Rosen...it is somewhat similar.....he has put up 45, 56, 45, 34, 27, 30, 31, 23, 17, 44.

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On 11/11/2017 at 10:34 AM, Bigalow80 said:

Astros didn't "sign" verlander. They traded from their incredibly deep farm system which took years to develop, hence the 3 years of 100+ losses and trading away most of their veterans. Not to mention, all the young players developed together under one system and when the time was right to add veteran players such as Beltran, McCann and Verlander they had the depth and financial flexibility to sign or trade for whomever they wanted. Another team utilized the same exact philosophy a few years ago, they were called the Chicago Cubs. Hmmm..this process sounds eerily similar to what the Browns have SAID THEY ARE DOING FOR THE LAST 1.5 YEARS!!!!!! Yes, FB and Baseball are different sports, but the metrics themselves are fairly similar. The Browns aren't going to get stud players in every round they draft. But what they want are very good quality players to support and occasionally play at high levels. This is what you are seeing in guys like Nassib, Schobert, Kirksey, Calhoun, etc. They are not stars but they are showing very good potential once stars are added ie Garrett, Collins. 

Adam Berry is the talent evaluator, technically. Personally, I think he has done an excellent job. The "overall talent on this roster is significantly better than it was in the past 4 years. Everyone complains about the WR misses, but this is exactly why the browns have lots of draft picks. So when they miss, and every franchise does, it isn't a franchise killer. The biggest miss has been the Qb's but that falls directly on Hue. He was brought in here to evaluate the qb's. The team has said that numerous times, that his opinion is the deciding factor.  Yes, you could argue that the 1-23 record over the last 2 years as an indicator for not having talent on the roster. But Hue has blown least 3 games this year alone due to play calling and game management. This argument is completely different if the browns are 3-5 vs 0-8.

I do feel they need one final person in the room to make the decision. A Football guy so to speak whether it is manning or the guy from Carolina, I don't know the right answer. I think it would help break the tie but most importantly it would STOP THE HASLAMS FROM MEDDLING!! this is the biggest issue. Jimmah and Dee can not and should not have any say in who is on this fb team (outside of personal conduct stuff). PERIOD. If they fire this regime, it is the same old crap once again and they still don't realize they are part of the problem.

Glad LB qouted this because I'd missed it skimming to get caught up... but I had to pull my point for wanting "a football guy". Matters not where the meddling comes from... Jimmah or a guy reporting to Jimmah. Result will be the same... meddling.

Let the process work...

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5 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

The biggest miss has been the Qb's but that falls directly on Hue.

We're not sure Hue, who apparently liked Wentz and Watson, was responsible for not getting a QB

6 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

but I had to pull my point for wanting "a football guy"

A football guy is precisely what we need along with an OC. If we keep it up with Hue being HC and OC I don't see how it can be successful, and also, however we're picking QB's now doesn't seem to be successful either. Whether it be Hue, the F.O., or a combination of both, they need someone who can more efficiently evaluate QB's.

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Where the phuck did I ever say, "The biggest miss has been the Qb's but that falls directly on Hue." ????????????

 

We will simply never agree on the "football guy". Installing a final say is the same as blowing up the whole thing.

 

 

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1 hour ago, stillmotion said:

We're not sure Hue, who apparently liked Wentz and Watson, was responsible for not getting a QB

So our collection of geniuses in the front office don't actually select players they allow the coaches to dictate picks, sounds plausible.

2016 Draft 1st Round

Sashi: I like this Wentz kid I think he could be the real deal.

Hue: Fuch that noise, I can't work with his raw talent.  Trade back get me Corey Coleman and more picks.

2017 Draft 1st Round

Sashi: Hue you liked RG3 and I think this Watson kid could be as good if not better.

Hue: Dude are you high?  I want a kinda safety that Greg wants to play out of position and a TE  that isn't sure if he's playing football or cricket.

Yeah I can see it now

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1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Where the phuck did I ever say, "The biggest miss has been the Qb's but that falls directly on Hue." ????????????

 

We will simply never agree on the "football guy". Installing a final say is the same as blowing up the whole thing.

 

 

Tour, Bigalow80 said the first phrase, not you, must of been an error when quoting.

In my eyes, as a group making decisions, what would be wrong with one more guy who has an eye for talent?

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I just dont get it.

2016- the FO LOVED Goff, but he was taken before we could get him.  Wentz was more risky and for a rebuild it was clear-as-day the trade down would be best for the organization... long term.  As of today, I think Goff will be the better pro.

2017- Garrett was a no-brainer.  When we traded down from 12, MOST people were upset we didn't pick the S from OSU, not Watson.  Actually, I cant recall anybody clamoring for Watson and he seemed like somewhat a risky pick for the Texans.

Those are not egregious errors, if you are honest and NOT just using hindsight to evaluate those decisions...

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21 minutes ago, thenew23 said:

I just dont get it.

2016- the FO LOVED Goff, but he was taken before we could get him.  Wentz was more risky and for a rebuild it was clear-as-day the trade down would be best for the organization... long term.  As of today, I think Goff will be the better pro.

2017- Garrett was a no-brainer.  When we traded down from 12, MOST people were upset we didn't pick the S from OSU, not Watson.  Actually, I cant recall anybody clamoring for Watson and he seemed like somewhat a risky pick for the Texans.

Those are not egregious errors, if you are honest and NOT just using hindsight to evaluate those decisions...

 And the fact they liked Goff tells me all I need to know about their ability to evaluate QBs.  They just haven't (like every other regime before them) pulled the trigger on a QB at the top of the draft.  This year... it will be time to take a shot...

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13 minutes ago, thenew23 said:

 And the fact they liked Goff tells me all I need to know about their ability to evaluate QBs.  They just haven't (like every other regime before them) pulled the trigger on a QB at the top of the draft.  This year... it will be time to take a shot...

Especially when it doesn't appear that there is a non-QB who is going to be a consensus #1 type pick. (As of today)

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29 minutes ago, thenew23 said:

I just dont get it.

2016- the FO LOVED Goff, but he was taken before we could get him.  Wentz was more risky and for a rebuild it was clear-as-day the trade down would be best for the organization... long term.  As of today, I think Goff will be the better pro.

2017- Garrett was a no-brainer.  When we traded down from 12, MOST people were upset we didn't pick the S from OSU, not Watson.  Actually, I cant recall anybody clamoring for Watson and he seemed like somewhat a risky pick for the Texans.

Those are not egregious errors, if you are honest and NOT just using hindsight to evaluate those decisions...

I've been on the record as saying that the front office should not be canned after this year but that being said, every draft is viewed using hindsight.  You evaluate how it went 2-4 years after they take place.  That's why it's the front office's job to scout, review the roster and make calculated decisions based on all available information in order to maximize the benefit of the draft.  If you choose not to draft Wentz or Watson when QB is a glaring need you hope that guys you draft prove to be better than what you passed on.  I agree that you can't hold Dak Prescott against the Browns front office but clearly the Eagles needed a QB and moved into the Browns spot to draft him #2.  Another front office evaluated Wentz and to this point he appears to be a franchise QB.

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8 hours ago, BaconHound said:

  I agree that you can't hold Dak Prescott against the Browns front office but clearly the Eagles needed a QB and moved into the Browns spot to draft him #2.  Another front office evaluated Wentz and to this point he appears to be a franchise QB.

I know you have a typo there and did not mean to say Dak Prescott. But I do have an issue with the FO not taking Prescott and said he was a franchise maker from the beginning. I also wanted the Browns to take Watson, but only after they took Garrett.

So in my mind this FO f'd up the QB not once, but twice. They need help in picking just as much as Hue needs game day management help. Neither one (FO and /or HC)  knows how to pick the right player when they are there for the taking at the QB position. Or if one of them knew but got overruled then fire the one(s) who overruled. Those were two big misses that even an amateur like me (and Tour at least on Prescott) could see well before the draft took place. And how they could take a 5th rounder like Kessler in the 3rd when Dak was sitting right there is unforgivable. Their due diligence research could have told them Dak's little run-in with DUI (which later did not hold up in court) was a one time thing even if it was real. That is what a good FO is supposed to be best at doing.

This year I see the best as Darnold and Rosen with the showdown this Saturday being the deciding factor. Allen I have now seen on multiple occasions and think he's career backup (if that). I have not really seen a full game from Lamar Jackson yet but plan to watch his game against Kentucky. I want to see the accurate arm and the progressions that I see in Darnold and Rosen.

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Ag... watch/record UVA vs. Miami Saturday. I am pretty sure I have my darkhorse for 2018, but I have a streak to protect.

Darnold? Rosen? Still lean Rosen, but I'm starting to get bad vibes on both. A lil Leinart feel for the former and Leaf feel for the latter. Looking forward to their match up.

Still haven't seen Allen. Jackson? Kid could be the Russell Wilson of this draft.

Really disagree on our FO... but you probably could have guessed that... ;)

12 hours ago, stillmotion said:

Tour, Bigalow80 said the first phrase, not you, must of been an error when quoting.

In my eyes, as a group making decisions, what would be wrong with one more guy who has an eye for talent?

Correction noted... I and my sanity thank you.

One more guy over "the concensus process" destroys the process. It's that simple. It's the Holmgren/Farmer/Chuckles/Moleface way one more time. It's not as if any one guy evaluates every prospect. None can... no one person can. Every "great" GM has hot and cold streaks. The best GM's build scouting... and analytics... staffs as well or better than they do rosters. That is how they sustain excellence. That is at the heart of what Sashi & Co are doing. That is Sashi's focus... it has to be since he is not a football guy. His total focus is the process.

I do not know of another example of this FO's approach. I do not know if it will work, I just know it can work... but only without the installation of a football guy.

 

Reminds me that I owe D bone a post....

 

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13 hours ago, thenew23 said:

I just dont get it.

2016- the FO LOVED Goff, but he was taken before we could get him.  Wentz was more risky and for a rebuild it was clear-as-day the trade down would be best for the organization... long term.  As of today, I think Goff will be the better pro.

2017- Garrett was a no-brainer.  When we traded down from 12, MOST people were upset we didn't pick the S from OSU, not Watson.  Actually, I cant recall anybody clamoring for Watson and he seemed like somewhat a risky pick for the Texans.

Those are not egregious errors, if you are honest and NOT just using hindsight to evaluate those decisions...

13 hours ago, thenew23 said:

 And the fact they liked Goff tells me all I need to know about their ability to evaluate QBs.  They just haven't (like every other regime before them) pulled the trigger on a QB at the top of the draft.  This year... it will be time to take a shot...

BOOM! Glad you split into two posts so I could give you two points...

Last point of first quoted bit first... here is what a title search for "Camp Watson" produced...

Quote

Kinda makes your "hindsight" point for you. I guess we can be thankful that the Camps Trubs and Mahommes crowds have no foundation as yet.

Interesting thing about both Wentz and Watson... trade offers made it more of question of whether we believed in either enough to spend two high picks on either one. Minus the offers I am not sure we would have passed on either, but the offers came and we passed.

Had we landed Goff and he posted the year he did in 2016 in CLE, the din here would have been mindblowing. And as much as I was in Camp Goff, the price of making sure we got him made me nervous.

Many a player I wanted, especially QBs, in the end got simply too expensive to land. No better example than Tannehill.

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On 11/12/2017 at 10:25 PM, D Bone said:

Give me your opinion on the following regarding a player acquisition: 

^ Extreme example I know, and I also know that if this was my friends and me, we would probably just play rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock..... but what do you think happens in this case? I'm guessing that the Browns would sign him since Sashi loves him? 

On 11/12/2017 at 11:59 PM, Tour2ma said:

Just lost a growing write up... too late too tired to restart it now. See ya in the AM... but a partial preview is in the strikethru above and these links...

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html

 http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/coaches.html

 

Now the challenge is to remember my approach from two nites ago... hmmmmm.

First... modify your example a bit. Second... Fire your Dude #3 as these guys are paid to have opinions

 

And..... F U C K.... did it again...

I need an "Undo" button... badly....

have to take this offline to a word program... back later...

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27 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Had we landed Goff and he posted the year he did in CLE in 2016, the din here would have been mindblowing. 

Oh God cant you just imagine the Sashi can’t evaluate QB he’s a lawyer comments

It may have even surpassed the current tide of comments

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On 11/13/2017 at 11:13 AM, The Gipper said:

Mason Rudolph?

That's the red neck pronunciation of My Son - Ma Son.

Anyway, it remains tough to translate Big 12 stats based on the lack of defense in that conference.  Then again, this lack of defense seems to go viral all over college football when Ohio State gives up over 50 points to Iowa.  The Syracuse team that beat Clemson gave up 64 points to Wake Forest while GA didn't look like they played very much defense vrs Auburn.

It looks like Ma Son has a great frame, strong arm and plenty of TD passes and yardage on the resume.  I just wonder how much de-programming his first NFL team needs to do.  Prevention always seems easier than intervention, which adds to the challenge of finding the right QB for our situation.

As fun as it is to watch Baker Mayfield, I don't know if he has a great chance in today's game. To say such a thing, I remember Drew Brees struggling so bad in his 3rd NFL season - that the Chargers used their 1st overall pick the next year on a QB. The rookie QB held out the length of camp and Brees had his first of many Pro Bowl seasons leading SD to a 12-4 record.  

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1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Ag... watch/record UVA vs. Miami Saturday. I am pretty sure I have my darkhorse for 2018, but I have a streak to protect.

Darnold? Rosen? Still lean Rosen, but I'm starting to get bad vibes on both. A lil Leinart feel for the former and Leaf feel for the latter. Looking forward to their match up.

Still haven't seen Allen. Jackson? Kid could be the Russell Wilson of this draft.

Im not convinced on any of them.   Figure that one of them has to be great right? 

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1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Now the challenge is to remember my approach from two nites ago... hmmmmm.

First... modify your example a bit. Second... Fire your Dude #3 as these guys are paid to have opinions

 

And..... F U C K.... did it again...

I need an "Undo" button... badly....

have to take this offline to a word program... back later...

The images running through my mind are awesome! 

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