"With the First Pick of the 2018 Draft, the Browns Select..."

[jiggins7919]

2 hours ago, wargograw said:

It may be isolated in the criminal sense. In the “is he an idiot?” sense, it’s one of a long list of incidents. 

 

Yeah, I kind of heard that too.  The more I think about it, the more I think there's almost no possible way we could risk it with our Manziel history.  If Baker turns out to be a stud and we don't draft him over our fears, I'll just explode.  We are so due for something amazing to go our way.

[The Gipper]

On 11/4/2017 at 11:44 PM, Vagitron said:

Ben had a great defense, solid offensive line, offensive weapons. You don’t just plunk down a rookie qb and expect fireworks and wins. Yes the browns have ruined quarterbacks, namely Tim couch. Kizer isn’t a bad qb either, he’s a rookie with nothing around him.

Again, you prove you don't have a Shmucking clue...about football or about whether you have a penis or a vagina.  Couch may have been the ONLY one of this group who could have amounted to something....but he got hurt.

But, for all the others...they just sucked. They sucked here and they sucked whereever else they went....when they DID have things around them.   

It is too early to tell on Kizer....but the fact is Brady Quinn sucked. Charlie Frye sucked, John Manziel sucked, Brandon Weeden sucked, etc. etc. etc.

Had any of these been a bit less sucky...the Browns may have been better over the years. They may not have been great, but they would have been better.

BR did come in with a great defense/OL/ etc....and he later proved to be a great QB.   Which ex-Browns QB proved to be a great QB after they left here?

[The Gipper]

On 11/5/2017 at 8:19 AM, Dutch Oven said:

I imagine the same exact words were used with Johnny Manziel replacing Baker Mayfield a few years ago.

Mayfield is JFF except with a few more inches.  Exciting college football QB.   But a Not Ready for Prime Time NFL QB.

[The Gipper]

22 hours ago, Vagitron said:

Of course it makes a difference he is one of the best in the league. However what offense in the nfl doesn’t suffer without their franchise qb? It’s kind of a moot point isn’t it? And that also wasn’t my point. My point was when Ben was a rookie he had a team around him, almost all the pieces were in place so he didn’t need to “carry the team” and damage his confidence if things went poorly.

No, you point was that the Browns ruined QBs.   That is just what you claimed.    Ergo.....you are saying that all these QBs would have been good otherwise if they had not been drafted by the Browns. 

Which, of course, is complete cow manure.   By your theory then....if by chance BR had been drafted by the Browns....he never would have become a good QB because the Browns would have ruined....which, again, is complete and udder  horse shite.

So....perhaps then what we here all should be saying is:  too bad the Browns didn't draft him, so that we could have had the opportunity to ruin that turd of a human being...and to have driven him out of the league. (at least he was then)

So...then what?   The Steelers would have had to take someone else? LIke Brady Quinn.....who would have become the second coming or who? Terry Bradshaw?   Stupid

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, Hunter33109 said:

I saw Josh Allen twice this year and I thought he looked great.  I would certainly hope the Browns would consider him but I think they will pass on him for two reasons, 1 being their analytics do not see Josh as a first or 2nd round draft pick and 2 being he doesn't come from a big name school.  I believe the Steelers will scoop him up in the second round as a back up for Ben with the aim of having him replace Ben.  But in any case I hope you're right and the Browns come to their senses and get a real blue collar QB leader.   

He looks Native American....is he?

[The Gipper]

I will declare right now that I am out of the "preferring we draft one QB or the other" business.   I was all on for MT last year, and that didn't happen. I was on for them taking Bosa the year before, and that didn't happen.

So, whatever they do, they do....and I am not going to advocate for one player or another.  I see no major, major talent out there anywhere....so I am not going to worry about it.

It has become just too much the theater of the absurd.....so I am going to choose to not buy a ticket to see that show.

[BaconHound]

10 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Another Allen supporter. Same message. He is not an NFL QB. He was missing wide open players this past Sat. with no pressure. Imagine the same with substantial pressure. And this is 3 games I've seen with him now (BSt. NM CSU). 10 of 20 against CSU is not an NFL QB. Take a look at the past two years (you can switch from 2017 to 2016 in this) and tell me that he is NFL material. He is not and the stats reflect exactly what I have seen in those 3 games this year. The better the team the worse he plays. 

http://www.espn.com/college-football/player/gamelog/_/id/3918298/year/2017/josh-allen

 

Against Power 5 teams he's pitiful

[calfoxwc]

wait, "the better the team the worse he plays" ?

well, yeah. The better the opponent, the worse the entire offense plays regardless of how good your qb is.

stats often don't mean what people think they mean. (take a note, Sashi.)

[hoorta]

15 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Another Allen supporter. Same message. He is not an NFL QB. He was missing wide open players this past Sat. with no pressure. Imagine the same with substantial pressure. And this is 3 games I've seen with him now (BSt. NM CSU). 10 of 20 against CSU is not an NFL QB. Take a look at the past two years (you can switch from 2017 to 2016 in this) and tell me that he is NFL material. He is not and the stats reflect exactly what I have seen in those 3 games this year. The better the team the worse he plays. 

http://www.espn.com/college-football/player/gamelog/_/id/3918298/year/2017/josh-allen

 

Ag, rest your case looking at those stats....Is Wyoming outgunned playing the likes of Oregon? Sure, but you can't totally suck against them either. 

[TexasAg1969]

52 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Ag, rest your case looking at those stats....Is Wyoming outgunned playing the likes of Oregon? Sure, but you can't totally suck against them either. 

So Sushi will take him then! Kizer needs someone to make him look good.

[Hunter33109]

21 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Another Allen supporter. Same message. He is not an NFL QB. He was missing wide open players this past Sat. with no pressure. Imagine the same with substantial pressure. And this is 3 games I've seen with him now (BSt. NM CSU). 10 of 20 against CSU is not an NFL QB. Take a look at the past two years (you can switch from 2017 to 2016 in this) and tell me that he is NFL material. He is not and the stats reflect exactly what I have seen in those 3 games this year. The better the team the worse he plays. 

http://www.espn.com/college-football/player/gamelog/_/id/3918298/year/2017/josh-allen

 

Gosh may be we'll be lucky enough to draft another Johnny "Where's My Beer" Manziel to lead us back to sub-average

[TexasAg1969]

1 hour ago, Hunter33109 said:

Gosh may be we'll be lucky enough to draft another Johnny "Where's My Beer" Manziel to lead us back to sub-average

Old news. Give up yet on defending Savior Josh?

[Hunter33109]

2 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Old news. Give up yet on defending Savior Josh?

He'll be a NFL QB and will do well.  He's big, strong and has an arm.  His accuracy is on very good and will only improve once he adapts to NFL play.  He has adapted, improved and succeeded at each level he's competed in.  Intangibles such as adapting and improving are a commodity in the NFL and is a foreign concept to the Browns.  The Browns' FO fixates on flash and past performance and is blind to other traits such as a QB's consistent overthrowing of receivers (which Josh Allen has demonstrated) that indicate his arm strength out paces his supporting cast.  Although he is big he can move which will allow him to extend plays when the pocket breaks down.  The Browns will not select him for a plethora of reasons but I believe that Josh Allen will be picked up and he will succeeded in the NFL.  So I haven't given up on Josh and he's no Savior for the Browns because they'll select another with flash and no substance just like the party boy from A&M.            

[TexasAg1969]

2 minutes ago, Hunter33109 said:

He'll be a NFL QB and will do well.  He's big, strong and has an arm.  His accuracy is on very good and will only improve once he adapts to NFL play.  He has adapted, improved and succeeded at each level he's competed in.  Intangibles such as adapting and improving are a commodity in the NFL and is a foreign concept to the Browns.  The Browns' FO fixates on flash and past performance and is blind to other traits such as a QB's consistent overthrowing of receivers (which Josh Allen has demonstrated) that indicate his arm strength out paces his supporting cast.  Although he is big he can move which will allow him to extend plays when the pocket breaks down.  The Browns will not select him for a plethora of reasons but I believe that Josh Allen will be picked up and he will succeeded in the NFL.  So I haven't given up on Josh and he's no Savior for the Browns because they'll select another with flash and no substance just like the party boy from A&M.            

I see you have chosen to ignore the stats that tell no lies about how bad he gets as the competition gets better. Just what we need, another interception machine that overthrows everything when under legitimate pressure. Can't wait for this!

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I see you have chosen to ignore the stats that tell no lies about how bad he gets as the competition gets better. Just what we need, another interception machine that overthrows everything when under legitimate pressure. Can't wait for this!

oh, not again. A terrific qb from a small school with no real good cast around him, plays a lot more talented, powerful team,

and the qb doesn't play better, has a worse day. Who woulda thunk that.

Seriously, that just is amusing to use that as a criticism of the young qb's skills.

[stillmotion]

dude baker mayfield is a winner. get him and barkley. cut the cowpoop.

[stillmotion]

1 minute ago, stillmotion said:

dude baker mayfield is a winner. get him and barkley. cut the cowpoop.

And release crow. Sign a free agent WR. Draft another big Tight end. Start building the offense. We have a line, and a good structure for the D. If we can never score, we'll never be any good.

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

oh, not again. A terrific qb from a small school with no real good cast around him, plays a lot more talented, powerful team,

and the qb doesn't play better, has a worse day. Who woulda thunk that.

Seriously, that just is amusing to use that as a criticism of the young qb's skills.

Since when is Colorado State a powerhouse? FWIW college, Wentz 63% completion rate, Allen 55% I'd say that's significant Cal. Can't help you if you've fallen in love with him. I got off the love boat after seeing him play. 

[Mark O]

43 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Since when is Colorado State a powerhouse? FWIW college, Wentz 63% completion rate, Allen 55% I'd say that's significant Cal. Can't help you if you've fallen in love with him. I got off the love boat after seeing him play. 

Colorado State is not a powerhouse.  Hell Colorado isn't a powerhouse these days.   The 2nd sentence is the key.   63% for Wentz, 55% for Cal's boyfriend.   55% against the minor leagues in the Mountain West isn't going to get it done.   I bet Kizer was around that same 55% or so in college and guess what...he's still inaccurate.

[Babernakle]

The way the browns pick jt barrett will be in Cleveland 

[Dutch Oven]

3 hours ago, Mark O said:

Colorado State is not a powerhouse.  Hell Colorado isn't a powerhouse these days.   The 2nd sentence is the key.   63% for Wentz, 55% for Cal's boyfriend.   55% against the minor leagues in the Mountain West isn't going to get it done.   I bet Kizer was around that same 55% or so in college and guess what...he's still inaccurate.

Jake Locker was another college QB who struggled with accuracy, still got picked high, and didn't find accuracy at the highest level either.

[calfoxwc]

again - Wentz, who was my number one pick in every mock draft, and I didn't want Goff.... had a far better

team around him than Allen. And the offense was in place for a lot less time. The same hc for Wentz at N. Dakota..

is Josh Allen's hc at Wyoming. NO qb can have good stats when he doesn't have talent around him, and often the talent

is far better on the other team.

It isn't just me, either. I see greatness in the abilities of the kid, regardless of the freakin stats.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000870850/article/sources-tell-us-scout-says-josh-allen-most-talented-qb-in-class

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/02/nick-stevens-or-josh-allen-best-mountain-west-quarterback/

"Allen, 6-foot-5 and 240 pounds, was anointed NFL draft royalty after a sophomore season in which he passed for 3,203 yards and 28 touchdowns, prompting one league executive to tell ESPN’s Adam Schefter: “You can put it in the books — Josh Allen will be the No. 1 pick in the NFL draft next year.” That’s not the consensus now; recent mock selections from CBS Sports, USA Today and Pro Football Focus don’t even have Allen being drafted in the first round. Bleacher Report, though, lists Allen at No. 6 overall.

The wide range of opinion stems from Allen’s lackluster 2017 statistics and a playing style that both befuddles and inspires. Wyoming graduated starting center Chase Roullier and four players — wide receivers Tanner Gentry and Jake Maulhardt, running back Brian Hill and tight end Jacob Hollister — who accounted for 47 touchdowns on the 2016 team. That attrition led Allen to try to play hero ball this season"

CS qb Stevens had a lot better stats, maybe mark thinks he's the superior qb.

Trouble is, he had a lot better cast of players around him:

"Stevens, meanwhile, has thrived at CSU thanks in part to a strong supporting cast that features the nation’s leading receiver in Michael Gallup (1,167 yards), an offensive line that has allowed only four sacks and tailbacks Dalyn Dawkins and Izzy Matthews, who have combined to rush for 1,438 yards and 12 touchdowns.

[calfoxwc]

5 hours ago, hoorta said:

Since when is Colorado State a powerhouse? FWIW college, Wentz 63% completion rate, Allen 55% I'd say that's significant Cal. Can't help you if you've fallen in love with him. I got off the love boat after seeing him play. 

here is what I'm saying. Going by stats is like walking a minefield in a WWII video game. You make mistakes, surely.

I'll draft a kid like Josh Allen, or even Clayton Thorson, over Mark's superstar qb with outstanding stats in college poster on his wall..

Brady Quinn.

courtesy of Wikipedia:

Quinn accepted the offer to attend Notre Dame, where he set 36 Fighting Irish records during his four seasons with the team. There were ten career records, twelve single-season records, four single-game records and ten miscellaneous records broken by Quinn throughout those four years, including the record for career pass attempts with 1,602; completions with 929; yards-per-game with 239.6; touchdown passes with 95, and the Irish's lowest interception percentage with 2.43. Quinn won 29 games as a starter at Notre Dame, tied with Ron Powlus and Tom Clements for the most in school history.

In 2005, under Notre Dame's new head coach Charlie Weis, Quinn excelled as a starting quarterback, averaging 110 more passing yards per game than he had as a sophomore while increasing his number of touchdown passes from 17 in 2004 to 32 in 2005. Quinn was named to the 2005 AP All-America Team as a third-team quarterback^[5] and the 2006 SI.com All-American Team as a second-team quarterback.^[6] Quinn received the Sammy Baugh Trophy as the nation's top passer of the 2005 season.^[7] At the end of the season, Notre Dame faced Ohio State in the Fiesta Bowl. Quinn had 29 completions in 45 pass attempts for 286 yards in a 34–20 loss to Ohio State.^[8]

Prior to the start of the 2006 college football season, Quinn was featured in a regional cover on the August 22, 2006 issue of Sports Illustrated's 2006 College Football Preview issue along with then-teammates Tom Zbikowski and Travis Thomas with the caption "Notre Dame: The Battle For No. 1."^[9] Quinn posted finished the season with 3,426 yards on 289 completions out of 467 attempts for a completion percentage of 61.9% and 7.34 yards per attempt. He threw 37 touchdowns to only 7 interceptions, and was sacked 31 times. Quinn finished the regular season with a passing efficiency rating of 146.65,^[10] which ranked him 18th in the country.^[11] Notre Dame invited to the 2007 Sugar Bowl on January 3, 2007, where they played LSU. Quinn was held to 148 passing yards. Quinn threw two touchdown passes, both in the first half, and LSU held Notre Dame scoreless through the second half of the game to defeat the Fighting Irish 41–14.^[12]

Following the 2006 season, Quinn won several awards, including the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award^[13] for the best college quarterback in the nation and the Maxwell Award^[14] for the best college football player. .^[15] He was named the Cingular All-America Player of the Year^[16] and was named to the 2006 AP All-America Team as a second-team quarterback.^[17] Quinn graduated from Notre Dame with dual degrees in political science and finance.^[18]

^{Oh, look, Mark - all those great STATS !}

[tiamat63]

5 hours ago, stillmotion said:

dude baker mayfield is a winner. get him and barkley. cut the cowpoop.

 

Find my Shmucking quote... go find it - where I said if the first words out of your mouth regarding a QB are "He's a winner, athletic, big arm, intangibles" and not "decisive, smart, accurate" then you shouldn't be drafting that QB.

 

You're making my point for me all over again.  It's like watching the Manziel hype train.   Pure Shmucking comedy.  

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

again - Wentz, who was my number one pick in every mock draft, and I didn't want Goff.... had a far better

team around him than Allen. And the offense was in place for a lot less time. The same hc for Wentz at N. Dakota..

is Josh Allen's hc at Wyoming. NO qb can have good stats when he doesn't have talent around him, and often the talent

is far better on the other team.

It isn't just me, either. I see greatness in the abilities of the kid, regardless of the freakin stats.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000870850/article/sources-tell-us-scout-says-josh-allen-most-talented-qb-in-class

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/02/nick-stevens-or-josh-allen-best-mountain-west-quarterback/

"Allen, 6-foot-5 and 240 pounds, was anointed NFL draft royalty after a sophomore season in which he passed for 3,203 yards and 28 touchdowns, prompting one league executive to tell ESPN’s Adam Schefter: “You can put it in the books — Josh Allen will be the No. 1 pick in the NFL draft next year.” That’s not the consensus now; recent mock selections from CBS Sports, USA Today and Pro Football Focus don’t even have Allen being drafted in the first round. Bleacher Report, though, lists Allen at No. 6 overall.

The wide range of opinion stems from Allen’s lackluster 2017 statistics and a playing style that both befuddles and inspires. Wyoming graduated starting center Chase Roullier and four players — wide receivers Tanner Gentry and Jake Maulhardt, running back Brian Hill and tight end Jacob Hollister — who accounted for 47 touchdowns on the 2016 team. That attrition led Allen to try to play hero ball this season"

CS qb Stevens had a lot better stats, maybe mark thinks he's the superior qb.

Trouble is, he had a lot better cast of players around him:

"Stevens, meanwhile, has thrived at CSU thanks in part to a strong supporting cast that features the nation’s leading receiver in Michael Gallup (1,167 yards), an offensive line that has allowed only four sacks and tailbacks Dalyn Dawkins and Izzy Matthews, who have combined to rush for 1,438 yards and 12 touchdowns.

Sheeze, CSU's OFFENSE has nothing to do with their DEFENSE, nice try at some spin. So some crackpot blogger has Allen #1 overall? You ignoring the big bold, huh? 

Sophmore season- I was all in on fail for Cardale. He still even on the Bills roster? 

[stillmotion]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 

Find my Shmucking quote... go find it - where I said if the first words out of your mouth regarding a QB are "He's a winner, athletic, big arm, intangibles" and not "decisive, smart, accurate" then you shouldn't be drafting that QB.

 

You're making my point for me all over again.  It's like watching the Manziel hype train.   Pure Shmucking comedy.  

Or, you have horrible logic. Comparing Mayfield to Manziel is like comparing Tom Brady to Kizer. I said to pick Barkley. The kid is an animal. If he's anything for us like Fournette has been for the jags, we can run the offense around him. Add in a couple of recievers, and all we need is a game manager as a QB. If we can get somebody like Baker Mayfield later, I would absolutely love it. He's smart, more accurate than you think, and where the heck did i say "athletic, big arm, intangibles?" Have you even watched him play this year?

I'm sure you'd rather have Allen, or Rosen, or D'Arnold who I think aren't NFL ready. I'd compare Mayfield to Drew Brees.

I believe Ghoolie is right and we don't need Lamar Jackson. He's another black tarkenton.

[wargograw]

5 hours ago, stillmotion said:

Or, you have horrible logic. Comparing Mayfield to Manziel is like comparing Tom Brady to Kizer. I said to pick Barkley. The kid is an animal. If he's anything for us like Fournette has been for the jags, we can run the offense around him. Add in a couple of recievers, and all we need is a game manager as a QB. If we can get somebody like Baker Mayfield later, I would absolutely love it. He's smart, more accurate than you think, and where the heck did i say "athletic, big arm, intangibles?" Have you even watched him play this year?

I'm sure you'd rather have Allen, or Rosen, or D'Arnold who I think aren't NFL ready. I'd compare Mayfield to Drew Brees.

I believe Ghoolie is right and we don't need Lamar Jackson. He's another black tarkenton.

How are Mayfield and Manziel NOT similar?

[LogicIsForSquares]

9 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 

Find my Shmucking quote... go find it - where I said if the first words out of your mouth regarding a QB are "He's a winner, athletic, big arm, intangibles" and not "decisive, smart, accurate" then you shouldn't be drafting that QB.

 

You're making my point for me all over again.  It's like watching the Manziel hype train.   Pure Shmucking comedy.  

The guy is a "ball player". Which pretty much amounts to jack shiet but hey he won some games?

I think people here don't realize that winning in college doesn't always translate to the NFL. Mayfield is likely a career backup.

[Bigalow80]

IF, and that's a big IF, the browns draft a qb it is going to be one of Darnold, Allen, or Rosen. There is no doubt in my mind. If the Browns are at the top of the draft, they are going to take the best qb they can get their hands on, depending on where they finish. Personally, I would rank them Darnold (he's statistically not having a great season b/c he is pressing too much with a bad team but he has accuracy and "it"), Rosen (his only question is the mental or love for the game , which is what will give teams pause), and Allen (people love his athletic abilities and upside, which, I am not sold, but that's the consensus). There is no way they wait to draft a qb this year. They just can't do it from a PR standpoint. 

All that being said, I think if they are going to bring in a qb, they will talk to SF seriously about potentially flip that top pick for JG. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same thing for Kirk Cousins because there is no way WASH is not tagging him. It would be stupid to just let an above avg qb hit the FA market without receiving anything. 

[calfoxwc]

7 hours ago, hoorta said:

Sheeze, CSU's OFFENSE has nothing to do with their DEFENSE, nice try at some spin. So some crackpot blogger has Allen #1 overall? You ignoring the big bold, huh? 

Sophmore season- I was all in on fail for Cardale. He still even on the Bills roster? 

yo - the idea was to show that the hype fell when Allen's surrounded cast graduated some major players, and the next year his stats are down. Well, of course, if you go by stats. I am not going by stats. Bradshaw admits his first year, he nearly got booed out of pittsdump. He even lost his starting qb role to Joe Gilliam sp? for a bit.

He had great stats in college, although he was the backup to Phil Robertson, of Duck Dynasty fame, for two years at Louisiana Tech. A lot of scouts think Allen is near the top of the draft - forget the stats.   The step up to the NFL is huge, and it takes a serious work ethic, love for the game, the fire and football smarts to make it work - and the character to stay our of trouble with the law and lead and inspire a football team.

Of course, having Swann and a terrific oline helped Bradshaw succeed..., etc.

Like I mentioned earlier, if stats is what wows you the most about a player, you can end up draftinga Brady Quinn...

and that's a fact, Jack.