"Read a lot into it. Quinn on track to be the starter"

[Drunkandstoopid]

Wait... you're disputing that NFL passing offenses have become imminently more efficient, with completion percentages and TD/INT ratios much higher now than ever before? And that three of the four top ratio guys are in their primes right now? That with almost every offense connected to the WCO in some way, and every defense connected to Tampa 2 in some way, the day of the mad bombers is long gone?

 

And I'm the one with a poorly thought out argument? Pot, this is kettle. You're black.

 

Wow. Delusion, thy name is drunkandstoopid.

 

You are the one acting like all QBs are finished products in their first two seasons of starts. That's not the case with the 4 guys you first named, and they were your examples of "the best".

 

Then you followed it up with guys, who with the exception of Rodgers, have seasons with lower TD/Int ratios than DA did in his one full season predominate their statistical resumes so far, and thus far haven't reached the level of play you claim you expect to see out of DA. If they are finished products right now, then Rodgers has a huge edge on DA as a QB, but the other guys don't.

 

Now you suddenly are changing the argument to West Coast offense vs. the deep offense.... make up your mind. You give out examples of guys who supposedly have a 2/1 TD/Int ratio year after year, then when it's shown that those guys didn't initially have that, and the other guys you've named have yet to achieve that consistently if at all, you resort to changing the argument.

 

I'm thinking all of these guys have the potential to achieve a 2/1 ratio on a consistent basis, even DA. Heck, Quinn's got a good shot at it if he lives up to the hype and the line play is better than it has been the last couple of years.

 

I used to think you were a thoughtful reasonable poster, but after watching you change your position and make new claims every time the wind blows (remember, it wasn't me, nor Lums, who gave you the nickname "flag" last year), I'm not so sure.

 

Later,

 

Steve

[Lumbergh]

That's today's NFL passing game... and Anderson doesn't fit it.

 

Ironically Anderson has better stats in every single category that shep pimps in this twisted Quinn crusade.

 

[Riffer X]

This is actually a damn good thread on both sides.

 

Queen Queer or Derek Bear Diva it's all good.

[Guest Aloysius]

That's not really the point, D&S. It's that today's NFL passing games are far more efficient than in the past, and three of the four best in history are playing right now. Back in the day, you could get away with 1.22/1, but that's not good enough anymore.

The last two Super Bowl champs were led by QB's with sub-1.22/1 regular season TD/INT ratios. Good defense and a strong running game can get you pretty far, apparently.

[Lumbergh]

Quinn has exactly one healthy start on his resume... and he posted a 104.0 passer rating.

 

shep he's not getting a free pass for having a boo boo on his finger. especially when the doctor cleared him and he said it didn't hurt.

 

posting it 1,000 times isn't gonna change that.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lumbergh]

The last two Super Bowl champs were led by QB's with sub-1.22/1 regular season TD/INT ratios. Good defense and a strong running game can get you pretty far, apparently.

 

yeah but in "shep world" he retroactively jumped on the Eli Manning bandwagon right at the moment the Giants got hot. So according to him he was all over that.

 

[Drunkandstoopid]

The last two Super Bowl champs were led by QB's with sub-1.22/1 regular season TD/INT ratios. Good defense and a strong running game can get you pretty far, apparently.

 

Who needs Superbowl wins when you can have stats on your side?

[Drunkandstoopid]

Eli Manning led a fairly mediocre playoff team... and then got insanely hot. You should look at those two indicators (completion percentage and TD/INT) starting with the last game of that season through Super Bowl. Pretty amazing stretch. Not coincidentally, that's when the Giants became a good football team. Alo should've stuck to the Steelers, the one great anomaly.

 

About that: Roethlisberger and the Steelers are odd ducks because they're so consistently dominant as a defensive team and in most years (not last) they're among the league leaders in rushing. Ben had an off year but he's a great quarterback who manages to make plays out of chaos as much as anybody. He's a 90-ish career passer who completes about 63 percent of his passes.

 

It's much easier to connect passing efficiency and winning, which Clayton has done, if you're looking for trends.

 

I'm trying to figure out how you can knock DA for his completion percentage and TD/INT ratio, then defend your hyping Manning who was playing at or below DA's level for the majority of 4 full seasons before having a breakout. You've said DA's numbers do not a QB make, but Manning's numbers prior to '08 were equivalent or shy of DA's.

[OconRecon]

Here's the list of QB's ABOVE DA in 2008:

 

• 25 Kyle Orton CHI
• 26 JaMarcus Russell OAK
• 27 Tyler Thigpen KC
• 28 Gus Frerotte MIN
• 29 Dan Orlovsky DET
• 30 Marc Bulger STL
• 31 Ryan Fitzpatrick CIN
• 32 Derek Anderson CLE

 

Not many of these guys are going to start in '09. Well, the first round draft choice probably will, but like Eli, first round draft choices get a longer leash.

 

So, out with the last ranked DA and in with the first round draft choice. I think that's that.

[Farang]

I'm starting to like Lummy's posts better now:

 

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[Greythan]

Ocon's post is a good one.

 

While the debate will rage regarding the cause of DA's poor 2008 and resulting view on his ceiling, the fact still remains that he's entering his fifth year (?) in the league and doubts regarding his systemic weaknesses remain (accuracy, decision making). How much longer do you invest in "developing" a guy no one thought to draft (sixth round still counts as being "drafted" I guess), was cut by a team without a QB, and continues to show the same negative tendancies? All this when you have a QB drafted in the first round sitting on the bench whom you were unwilling to trade when you had offers on the table?

 

Answer: No more investing in DA's development while Quinn remains an unknown. Hence, Quinn will get his shot.

 

Logical thought process to me and all we've ever wanted. Again, should Quinn flame out we'll then have to choose between re-investing in DA's development or finding a new QB.

[Lumbergh]

Answer: No more investing in DA's development while Quinn remains an unknown. Hence, Quinn will get his shot.

 

Quinn isn't unknown. And he had "his shot".

 

You just don't want to believe he was the spitting image of Charlie Frye.

[Lumbergh]

BTW, Mangini says Quinn is still taking "first reps."

 

*Anderson took first reps on Tuesday

 

what should we be reading into that?

[Lumbergh]

Okay, now you don't even try to make sense. There's no effort here at all.

 

you're right. Shoulda narrowed it down. The dink n dunk style is the spitting image. But with all the "accurate Quinn" talk I must have forgotton his completion percentage isn't even in the same ballpark as Frye.

 

 

[Greythan]

Quinn isn't unknown. And he had "his shot".

 

You just don't want to believe he was the spitting image of Charlie Frye.

I'll bite, Fraud.

 

What's this?

 

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
21   37 276 56.8 7.46 45  1  1  0.0  78.2
23   32 223 71.9 6.97 36  2  2  5.0  85.8
10   27 123 37.0 4.56 25  0  4  2.0  12.3

 

Its the results of DA' first three "starts". 3 TD's and 7 INT's. I guess his experiment was over then too. I especially liked the 0/4 effort against the then, 3 win Tampa team at home.

 

3 games isn't a "shot" or your boy wouldn't have made the team the following year based on your "logic".

[lemosley01]

*Anderson took first reps on Tuesday

 

what should we be reading into that?

 

That Quinn's arm got tired from throwing all of the balls the previous three days?

 

Damn Greythan. I didn't realize that DA owned several of the worst performances we've seen in recent memory. What a shitfest.

[Greythan]

I took a quick count of DA's throws in his first start and came up with only one throw ESPN categorizes as "long". I found one they called "deep" that was a 16 yard completion. Every other pass (including his long TD to BE) was a short pass dependent on YAC.

 

Yup, DA was a dink and dunker too. Only, he coughed up 7 interceptions in his first 3 starts. Ouch.

 

Don't you get tired?

[Guest Aloysius]

The New England offense actually has gotten more vertical in recent years and has incorporated a ton of spread looks. If you've got a good TE or slot guy who can wreak havoc over the middle, defenses can't simply take away the deep ball by playing Cover 2.

 

It's funny: just a year ago, a bunch of people here were talking about how you have to go vertical, which is why Savage was so smart to bring in Stallworth. Now, we're saying that defenses can easily take away the vertical game, so it's not all that valuable. I'm guessing the truth is somewhere in between.

[Lumbergh]

3 games isn't a "shot" or your boy wouldn't have made the team the following year based on your "logic".

 

"logic", unlike BQ Nation, doesn't omit the fact that DA beat Kansas City in overtime.

[Guest AdaM]

"logic", unlike BQ Nation, doesn't omit the fact that DA beat Kansas City in overtime.

 

thats relevant.

[pl4tinum]

The only thing DA beats consistently is his meat, and that's how it's going to stay

[Greythan]

Only someone as attention starved as your sad soul would cherry pick a relief appearance. So, following your logic, look what a horrid Tampa team was ablel to do after getting a couple weeks of film on DA.

 

By the way, ALL of DA's completions against KC were short passes according to ESPN's archives.

 

So, again, what say you of DA's early dink and dunk tendancies?

 

I've never seen such a masochist. You really should seek some help.

[Lumbergh]

Only someone as attention starved as your sad soul would cherry pick a relief appearance.

 

wow you really want to throw that one out don't you?

 

it makes sense for you though since it blows the shit out of anything BQ has done.

 

as I was saying, nobody outside of BQ Nation discounts that game.

 

[lemosley01]

The New England offense actually has gotten more vertical in recent years and has incorporated a ton of spread looks. If you've got a good TE or slot guy who can wreak havoc over the middle, defenses can't simply take away the deep ball by playing Cover 2.

 

It's funny: just a year ago, a bunch of people here were talking about how you have to go vertical, which is why Savage was so smart to bring in Stallworth. Now, we're saying that defenses can easily take away the vertical game, so it's not all that valuable. I'm guessing the truth is somewhere in between.

 

That's why I think DA would do well in a place like DET - with CJ who can go up and get the ball, and can stretch the defense, it would seem to be an ideal environment.

 

BUF is another possibility with TO.

 

For Anderson to be successful, he NEEDS that big play receiver that can get errant passes in order to be successful. Every QB wants to have a guy like that, but some need it more than others.

[Lumbergh]

• Mangini said that while Brady Quinn "took the first rep of the first practice" last week, Derek Anderson and the other quarterbacks have rotated with the first team. The rotation schedule had Quinn again with the first team today.

 

"READ A LOT INTO IT" looks like a poor choice of words now doesn't it?

 

Mangini said that Anderson took first reps yesterday and will again tomorrow.

 

[Drunkandstoopid]

That Quinn's arm got tired from throwing all of the balls the previous three days?

 

Considering both guys are getting the same number of reps in practice, I can't see Quinn's getting tired to the point that DA has to step in for him as a strong point.

[Lumbergh]

I keep reading about Quinn's TD passes... nothing on Anderson.

 

haven't heard anything on Anderson. that's because both media days fell on Quinn days.

 

Sounds like Quinn threw one right to Don Carey on defense too. I thought Quinn knew Daboll's offense inside and out? He must be having problems reading defenses.

[Lumbergh]

Didn't hear who threw that interception to Carey. Did you? Just said Carey had an interception. Assuming he isn't first team defense yet, he may have been facing a backup quarterback (like Anderson).

 

If Anderson threw a pick, you know sure as shit that the OBR would have not wasted an opportunity to tell you about it.

 

The whole rest of the report is about Quinn. There is no question who threw it.

 

[Drunkandstoopid]

OBR's gradually admitting the possibility that Anderson's actually in the mix at QB. Today they even went as far as stating DA "may not be that far behind Brady Quinn in Eric Mangini's eyes".

 

[Guest Aloysius]

Alo, defenses will take away the deep ball if that's a quarterback's forte. If he can do it all AND has a running game, it's much tougher to keep those safeties back. He'll just pick you apart, like a Tom Brady.

 

Anderson looked lost without his deep ball. So it works on him. Cover 2 Quinn and I'd bet he'd take what you gave him, which is what he did in his only healthy start.

I don't disagree that's been a problem with Anderson. He needs to improve his short game, and our running game needs to be good enough that opposing teams can't stop it using only their front sevens.

 

It's not a good sign that the problem hasn't been solved. Then again, all we heard last summer was that DA was improving his game by working on his abs and getting Thai massages. His conditioning was never the problem, which made it all seem so bizarre.

 

And he wowed everyone with his strong arm during camp (including you, if I'm not mistaken) when he should have been working on his short game. Maybe that's why you aren't hearing anything about him throwing deep ball TD's now: just as Quinn reportedly "staggered" early on in last year's camp because he changed his grip on the ball, perhaps DA's working on things that reporters sitting in on an hour of OTA's wouldn't notice.

 

The deep ball is something of a given for DA, whereas it isn't necessarily so for Quinn. You said he'd take what the defense gave him, but they're probably not going to give him all of that underneath stuff. I bet defenses would stack the box against Quinn early on, thinking they're better off testing BQ's arm strength, Robiskie's deep speed, and Braylon's ability to come down with the ball. And on obvious passing downs, they're going to flash a bunch of different looks at him, perhaps trying to trick him with a couple more lineman dropping into coverage.

 

And that's if he wins the job. From what I've heard, it sounds like we're having a real quarterback competition. Go watch Mangini's most recent presser: it's clear that he wants the public message to be that the two quarterbacks are in an open competition. Maybe it's Quinn's job to lose, but he could still lose it. I get that people here are afraid that DA's impressive arm will win him the competition, but don't you think that Mangini's smart enough to know what translates to a game setting and what doesn't? And if the offense we're installing is one that favors Quinn (as you've said) and DA still looks significantly better, what would that tell us?

 

If I had to guess, I'd say Quinn wins the job and DA isn't with the team past this season; his 2010 contract numbers are just too high for a backup ($2M roster bonus, $7.45M base salary). But I don't think it makes sense to tear down DA with statistical analyses that'll make whoever's our starting QB this year look bad. If Brady starts and doesn't have a 2:1 TD/INT ratio, does that mean we should move on to Ratliff?

 

I'd probably be happy with Matt Ryan's 16/11, assuming we actually get some rushing TD's. And I think you'd be happy as well.