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wargograw

It's About Baby Steps

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32 minutes ago, hoorta said:

You're right this team is really young- but. The National media isn't going to look that deep TC- the expansion Tampa Bay teams of the 70s are going to be the yardstick- and we're right there with them on the all time suck list. May even have topped them if you count back to our Bengals win a few seasons ago. 

Maybe it’s just me, but I’m finding it difficult to find National Media publications that are calling us the worst team of all time.

As a matter of fact, I’m having a hard time finding really any National publications that are talking about us at all, outside of “what to watch for- week [whatever]” and “Browns WR corps is hot garbage” articles.

If we’re being completely honest, I’ve seen more rational articles from National publications about the state of the Browns than I have from any Cleveland-based news organizations or reporters. 

It it seems like they understand what’s going on here...which is a lot more than can be said about some “fans” I see that lurk around these parts.

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21 minutes ago, stillmotion said:

Did I call for his firing after the game? Or did I call out his poor clock management decisions for that single game. Don't put words into my mouth dude. I never said completely end the plan and fire hue, I just called him out for some sub par decisions, and we have to be able to analyze the plan, and acknowledge that it might be behind schedule. I want Hue to man up and admit his mistakes. and Tour, what I meant is that I felt there was uncertainty in the front office and with the coaching towards certain things. Like mud said, Are we completely giving up the season to develop Kizer? If that's the case, don't bench him then. But putting Hogan in will give us a chance to win and provide a QB controversy, hurting his ego along the way. 

If you're not calling for the firing then why are you responding? This thread wasn't meant for you. 

13 minutes ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Maybe it’s just me, but I’m finding it difficult to find National Media publications that are calling us the worst team of all time.

As a matter of fact, I’m having a hard time finding really any National publications that are talking about us at all, outside of “what to watch for- week [whatever]” and “Browns WR corps is hot garbage” articles.

If we’re being completely honest, I’ve seen more rational articles from National publications about the state of the Browns than I have from any Cleveland-based news organizations or reporters. 

It it seems like they understand what’s going on here...which is a lot more than can be said about some “fans” I see that lurk around these parts.

Yeah I just heard on local sports radio today the host was going around the NFL and for the Browns he said he loved what Sashi was doing. He gave a very simplified explanation of our process and said it was good but we were taking our lumps. It seems people respect what we're doing. 

What I DO remember is a TON of criticism after firing our last two coaches without giving them a real shot. 

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4 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

 

"All of us want to win and win immediately,'' Haslam said. "Most of you don't know me that well personally, but I'm an extremely impatient person. But I think we've learned the hard way if you want to do this and do it right, building through the draft and being patient and getting the right people in place is the right way to do it. So it's hard, but it's unequivocally the right thing to do."

^ That is the part of the equation that is very much up for debate...... 0-5 / 1-20 isn't a coincidence or accident, and the current (and past) people are responsible for it.

Sooner or later, there has got to be proof that what you are doing is actually working. 

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7 minutes ago, D Bone said:

^ That is the part of the equation that is very much up for debate...... 0-5 / 1-20 isn't a coincidence or accident, and the current (and past) people are responsible for it.

Sooner or later, there has got to be proof that what you are doing is actually working. 

Who’s debating it? It doesn’t seem like anyone in the organization is. The only people that seem to be debating it are the fans who thought we’d have 6 wins this year or the people who wanted [insert player here] instead of [insert other player here].

Its weird... the guys with the most on the line don’t really seem to be panicking as much as the guys who are sitting in their armchairs on Sundays.

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1 minute ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Who’s debating it?

Anyone with a brain who has watched the last 21 games...... Guess you've missed them, or maybe just turned off the TV so you didn't know the outcome? 

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4 minutes ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Its weird... the guys with the most on the line don’t really seem to be panicking as much as the guys who are sitting in their armchairs on Sundays.

Boy, if this doesn't say it all then I don't know what does..... oh wait, I do: 

1-20 

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41 minutes ago, D Bone said:

Anyone with a brain 

Well, you eliminated yourself right then and there, I guess.

 

42 minutes ago, D Bone said:

 Guess you've missed them, or maybe just turned off the TV so you didn't know the outcome? 

I've watched each game about 4 times through already, both broadcast and all-22's. And here's the kicker...I actually know what I'm looking at.

 

41 minutes ago, D Bone said:

1-20 

CLASSIC

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OK, serious question to you TCPO. We all have our limits on anything, so hypothetically speaking, say the Browns continue to lose with the guys they have in place, what do you think your number is until you're like "phukit, this ain't working, something has to change"?

I guess for me it was 1-20. For others here it was 0-1....... What do you guess yours is? 

This is a serious question to see where your patience level stops, or at least where you think it stops.... I thought I could easily get through this year "no matter how bad it got", but I guess I was wrong. 

 

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4 hours ago, dawg2fan said:

But they didn't completely blow up the team first.  We did and we will continue to build this team.  Anyone expecting this team to win a lot games (with basically hall rookies) is crazy.  I heard Rex Ryan say that a team with all rookies will get you fired.  But Haslem is aware of this and will give this team time to completely rebuild. 

Correct there was still a nucleus from the most generous expansion draft ever granted an expansion franchise plus some good drafts and trades aloong the way... along with a fair number of clunkers.

In Fox's 1st season they drafted Steve Smith, Sr.. In his 2nd they traded for Jake Delhomme.

3 hours ago, wargograw said:

Tour, can you clarify what you're implying here? Not following.

Sarcasm... pure and simple. I have trouble finding the pink font...

Point was that this Sashi led FO landed both players.

One, Collins, in a brilliant gamble, and then locked him up for 4 years.

And two, an undersized UDFA who sat out a year before they ID'd very early, in the 2017 FA period, and locked him up for two years.

And some people want him gone...

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10 minutes ago, D Bone said:

OK, serious question to you TCPO. We all have our limits on anything, so hypothetically speaking, say the Browns continue to lose with the guys they have in place, what do you think your number is until you're like "phukit, this ain't working, something has to change"?

I guess for me it was 1-20. For others here it was 0-1....... What do you guess yours is? 

This is a serious question to see where your patience level stops, or at least where you think it stops.... I thought I could easily get through this year "no matter how bad it got", but I guess I was wrong. 

 

I literally was going to ask practically the same question.

I don't totally disagree with war or TCPO, and I also totally understand the frustration of the "paycheck to paycheck" Camaro owners.

But I want to know is WHEN is it appropriate to be concerned with the direction of the Browns in your eyes? What is the date when you'll see angry posts by lottery scratch-offers and say: "You know, that guy is right. The Browns are a mess."

 

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4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

#BabySteps

This Baby Duke is walking & talking now

  

Gotta crawl before you walk. but this is ridiculous progress    

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2 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

If we’re being completely honest, I’ve seen more rational articles from National publications about the state of the Browns than I have from any Cleveland-based news organizations or reporters.

Understandable when your job depends upon clicks. But there are a couple of locals... Pluto has wavered some, but is still pretty objective. Pat McMahon was hanging in there very well last I read him.

1 hour ago, D Bone said:

Anyone with a brain who has watched the last 21 games...... Guess you've missed them, or maybe just turned off the TV so you didn't know the outcome? 

You can do better than this... I've seen you do it...

35 minutes ago, D Bone said:

OK, serious question to you TCPO. We all have our limits on anything, so hypothetically speaking, say the Browns continue to lose with the guys they have in place, what do you think your number is until you're like "phukit, this ain't working, something has to change"?

I guess for me it was 1-20. For others here it was 0-1....... What do you guess yours is? 

This is a serious question to see where your patience level stops, or at least where you think it stops.... I thought I could easily get through this year "no matter how bad it got", but I guess I was wrong.

Mind if I cut in? Tough Sheet if it's not...

I'm good for 2017 come what may. It's the advantage of having bought into what I see happening. The disadvantage is trying to buoy up the lion's share of this Board with few, but quite capable, allies.

And I will participate fully in the Kizer verdict and 2018 plan... all the time awaiting the unveiling of the only plan that matters. As it's unveiled, I'll assess and get back to you.

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10 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

You can do better than this... I've seen you do it...

Mind if I cut in? Tough Sheet if it's not...

I'm good for 2017 come what may. It's the advantage of having bought into what I see happening. The disadvantage is trying to buoy up the lion's share of this Board with few, but quite capable, allies.

And I will participate fully in the Kizer verdict and 2018 plan... all the time awaiting the unveiling of the only plan that matters. As it's unveiled, I'll assess and get back to you.

 

Oh, I can do way better.... just didn't feel like it. I always take into account with whom I'm conversing with. 

 

Don't mind a bit if you cut in T, you know that. In fact, I hope everyone cuts in, as I'm just looking for their honest opinions while not trying to condescendingly force my opinion on them......... We have at least one of those dudes already in this place, and need more of them like the Browns need loses. 

For me, it's not all about the lone win and 20 loses - although I'd be lying if I said that wasn't part of it, but it's simply that I don't see us getting better overall. Yea the D looks better, but the offense, STs and most of all, the game day coaching decisions are just abysmal. I'm "OK" with the FO, but honestly, I'm done with Hue and I was one of his biggest backers.

Hopefully we will never have to test your, TCPO and War's patience limits because you guys were all right while we were all wrong, and we start to win some damn football games in the foreseeable future.........I can wait for Super X season to get here.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, D Bone said:

OK, serious question to you TCPO. We all have our limits on anything, so hypothetically speaking, say the Browns continue to lose with the guys they have in place, what do you think your number is until you're like "phukit, this ain't working, something has to change"?

I guess for me it was 1-20. For others here it was 0-1....... What do you guess yours is? 

This is a serious question to see where your patience level stops, or at least where you think it stops.... I thought I could easily get through this year "no matter how bad it got", but I guess I was wrong. 

 

I could see us going 1-15 again this year and it wouldn’t bother me as long as we see signs of life in certain aspects. Right now, we are seeing those signs - we have a young, fiesty defense that’s been missing  quality starters and has still made plays we haven’t seen in a while here. That’s a definite improvement. 

 

My benchmark is this part of next season. Say a year from today. By that time, I’d expect us to have:

- A QB we are at least mediocre on. If it’s Kizer, he better look a hell of a lot better than he has so far. If it’s not Kizer, I’d expect it to be a top guy in next year’s draft, whoever that may be. 

- A WR1 that can catch the ball at a baseline 60% clip, get separation and make solid to great plays from time to time. I would also love to nab a mid level, young veteran with reliable hands via FA or trade. 

- A true FS, allowing Peppers to move back to SS like he did for a lot of Sunday’s game.

- A nice, explosive RB with good vision. There’s about three or four eligible for this draft that fit that bill. Doesn’t necessarily have to be a workout warrior or a physical freak, but should be well-rounded enough to perform admirably in both power and zone blocking schemes. Plus vision, plus hands. Doesn’t have to be Barkley, but I wouldn’t be opposed to that today. 

With five picks in the first two rounds, that list is not outside the realm of reason at all. I would expect us to have new faces at most, if not all of those positions, and that gives Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, our DT’s and our OL a full year of experience. Plus it seasons Treggs, Williams, Higgins and Louis enough to where one or two will be able to hang on be low-level contributors.

IF we land talent like that, I’ll be happy with the FO. Then, from there...

IF we’re 0-5 or 1-4 next season with that talent, that’s a major concern. That’s when we start looking at coaching replacements.

 

EDIT TO ADD: I have absolutely no problem admitting I’m wrong about Kizer, if it comes to that. I was wrong about Bortles.

 

 But I’m damn sure not going to do it 5 games into the season.

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As I sit here typing this, I don't know how many games I would actually see if they go 1-15 again. I already won't watch Sunday if Kizer starts, because I just can't stomach any more of the kid right now, and could easily see myself missing the last 6 if they are suddenly 0-10.

I have never been, nor will I ever be a patient man - admittedly sometimes to a fault, but if you guys are "OK" (not happy, but accepting) with back-2-back 1-15 seasons, then you are better men than I.

Again, my opinion changed drastically last Sunday, but I'm not saying I want it all blown up like some do, I've just got Hue in my sights..... I like him as a dude, but not a HC & OC. If he handed the OC controls over to someone else and took a Mike Tomlin role, then I would be all for that...... but I can't wait until another 1-15 season concludes, I just freakin' can't.  

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2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I literally was going to ask practically the same question.

I don't totally disagree with war or TCPO, and I also totally understand the frustration of the "paycheck to paycheck" Camaro owners.

But I want to know is WHEN is it appropriate to be concerned with the direction of the Browns in your eyes? What is the date when you'll see angry posts by lottery scratch-offers and say: "You know, that guy is right. The Browns are a mess."

 

If there's no apparent growth in the form of wins in the first month of the 2018 season. 

 

32 minutes ago, D Bone said:

As I sit here typing this, I don't know how many games I would actually see if they go 1-15 again. I already won't watch Sunday if Kizer starts, because I just can't stomach any more of the kid right now, and could easily see myself missing the last 6 if they are suddenly 0-10.

I have never been, nor will I ever be a patient man - admittedly sometimes to a fault, but if you guys are "OK" (not happy, but accepting) with back-2-back 1-15 seasons, then you are better men than I.

Again, my opinion changed drastically last Sunday, but I'm not saying I want it all blown up like some do, I've just got Hue in my sights..... I like him as a dude, but not a HC & OC. If he handed the OC controls over to someone else and took a Mike Tomlin role, then I would be all for that...... but I can't wait until another 1-15 season concludes, I just freakin' can't.  

I do hope Hue gets an OC at some point. I agree he seems to be a bit of a dopey football coach, but the players love him and he's a motivator. That's worth alot, especially when you have a DC that allows your HC to be totally hands off from an actual coaching standpoint. 

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13 hours ago, D Bone said:

As I sit here typing this, I don't know how many games I would actually see if they go 1-15 again. I already won't watch Sunday if Kizer starts, because I just can't stomach any more of the kid right now, and could easily see myself missing the last 6 if they are suddenly 0-10.

I have never been, nor will I ever be a patient man - admittedly sometimes to a fault, but if you guys are "OK" (not happy, but accepting) with back-2-back 1-15 seasons, then you are better men than I.

Again, my opinion changed drastically last Sunday, but I'm not saying I want it all blown up like some do, I've just got Hue in my sights..... I like him as a dude, but not a HC & OC. If he handed the OC controls over to someone else and took a Mike Tomlin role, then I would be all for that...... but I can't wait until another 1-15 season concludes, I just freakin' can't.  

Not sure about "better"... more patient cettainly, but due to seeing "the plan" and believing in it.

Here's the thing about Kizer... as I've been posting I've seen progress. He is seeing the field better, reading Ds better, which is not the same as seeing the individual defender/receiver relationship as we painfully saw in the Goalline INT Sunday. But I will keep watching because this is something where he can literally "get it" in a single moment... it can be like a light switch flipping on... and I want to see that moment if it comes.

It's vision vs. focus. It's similar to the "art" that was the rage in the 90's where if you defocused on the surface looking past the surface a picture appeared. It's similar to speed-reading where you take in blocks of words rather than reading them one at a time. Once you see the first picture... absorb the first block of words... it's easy the next time.

If this happens, then it will come down to touch... and that's just repetitions... tons of repetitions... that if vision is achieved will get a little easier.

Hue? Yeah... been an OC advocate since last season. I'll give him this season tho. However, unless there's a drastic improvement in our post-season review I explain to him that this franchise will have an OC next year either with him or without him. Ditto for a time out/ replay assistant.

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18 hours ago, wargograw said:

If you're not calling for the firing then why are you responding? This thread wasn't meant for you. 

If he loses out the rest of the year, or only wins one game, and keeps up the poor clock management, boneheaded decisions, and has another QB next year who "shook the earth" and is his guy, then i'll be calling for his firing, but not now. I'm really happy Hogan is getting a chance since at this point, dude is the better quarterback, but now we have a QB controversy, and who knows what the heck with plan is with Kizer. Are we trying to win or develop players? Or is Hue just unsure, or desperate.

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9 minutes ago, stillmotion said:

If he loses out the rest of the year, or only wins one game, and keeps up the poor clock management, boneheaded decisions, and has another QB next year who "shook the earth" and is his guy, then i'll be calling for his firing, but not now. I'm really happy Hogan is getting a chance since at this point, dude is the better quarterback, but now we have a QB controversy, and who knows what the heck with plan is with Kizer. Are we trying to win or develop players? Or is Hue just unsure, or desperate.

Regarding Hue, I think both. Pretty sure him and the analytics guys didn't expect Kizer to suck this bad. I think Jackson saw- as 92% of the PD fans who took the poll clearly saw- Hogan has outplayed Deshone by a mile. So if Hue's about "building a winning culture" he had no choice but to sit the chosen one and start Hogan. 

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Looks like I'll be watchin' a Browns game this Sunday after all...... Looking forward to Hogan under center (hopefully a lot more than shotgun). 

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On 10/9/2017 at 6:49 PM, CaineDeSoulis said:

LOL Coaching Does not Matter its all talent... Remember? Talent>Scheme,Coaching,Personnel... I remember this arguement.... and now we see that gregg williams comes in and takes a HISTORICALLY BAD browns defense makes them downright DOMINANT in stopping the run...like one of the best in 5 years... so please go ahead tell me that hue jackson just needs more talent and then he can be a good coach :). One day you'll realize the nfl is designed for parity and one of the biggest determining factors in a game is coaching...but you probably still believe the talent hype meant for kids and to sell player merchandise. :)

Look at Watson and Bill O'Brien.

O'Brien has coached him up.

 

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10 hours ago, hoorta said:

Regarding Hue, I think both. Pretty sure him and the analytics guys didn't expect Kizer to suck this bad. I think Jackson saw- as 92% of the PD fans who took the poll clearly saw- Hogan has outplayed Deshone by a mile. So if Hue's about "building a winning culture" he had no choice but to sit the chosen one and start Hogan. 

Or this was all part of his Kessler plan, and we just have to trust him.

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On 10/10/2017 at 6:45 PM, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Who’s debating it? It doesn’t seem like anyone in the organization is. The only people that seem to be debating it are the fans who thought we’d have 6 wins this year or the people who wanted [insert player here] instead of [insert other player here].

Its weird... the guys with the most on the line don’t really seem to be panicking as much as the guys who are sitting in their armchairs on Sundays.

no they just take easy taking a knee or stretching their nads while the nat'l anthem plays with 100% of the fans looking at them and booing..........and people like me who don't watch a second of any game unless it's hand to me on a platter like some prime rib.

those "guys" are going to quickly get a lesson in biz 101. money means everything to the owners and players and the shield itself.

change, it's a comin. 

if sashi and co. make it through the year and get the picks next year and he DOESN"T pick 'the' QB cleveland will implode into the rusted roof river called shittsville once again. rinse and repeat. no wins you prob won't see them ever again except in your steroid driven bukkake fantasy dreamland.

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3 hours ago, miktoxic said:

no they just take easy taking a knee or stretching their nads while the nat'l anthem plays with 100% of the fans looking at them and booing..........and people like me who don't watch a second of any game unless it's hand to me on a platter like some prime rib.

those "guys" are going to quickly get a lesson in biz 101. money means everything to the owners and players and the shield itself.

change, it's a comin. 

if sashi and co. make it through the year and get the picks next year and he DOESN"T pick 'the' QB cleveland will implode into the rusted roof river called shittsville once again. rinse and repeat. no wins you prob won't see them ever again except in your steroid driven bukkake fantasy dreamland.

None of this had anything to do with football.

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9 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

None of this had anything to do with football.

Nothing this guy rambles on about has anything to do with anything.

At least he didn't compare Kizer to a monkey again, though. That's progress, I suppose.

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