It's About Baby Steps

[Tour2ma]

17 hours ago, CaineDeSoulis said:

... please go ahead tell me that hue jackson just needs more talent and then he can be a good coach :).

Skepticism is warranted. Mine is growing as well. But so far all we know is that Hue is either not adept at and/or is significantly resistant to adapting his O to the personnel he has. Yet we saw some adapting this past Sunday... more snaps under Center yielding more rushing, more PAP opportunities, more yardage. Even saw a roll-out... albeit an ill-fated one.

That said, this is a collection of WRs that would test even the most adaptable OC in the league. Add in a QB-in-training and it's a combo that tries OC's souls... fans, too.

16 hours ago, gumby73 said:

 Collins replacement is Burgess who lead us in tackles & a Sack yesterday. A young damn good player, but ya can't get back what Collins has been seeing on the field for years. 

So Collins...

• the LB our inept FO traded for and
• signed to a long-term deal...

is replaced by Burgess...

• an undersized, hybrid-ish, LB...
• a 2016 UDFA that never saw the NFL field on D before Collins' concussion yet for some reason our suck-butt FO jumped on back in January...
• before Williams signed on as DC

... and then he leads us in tackles in a game? GTFO...

16 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

The pass defense isn't outstanding...

Which tends to be the case when a D stuffs the run. Most D can't stop everything.

15 hours ago, wargograw said:

I've got a creed to live by for college football (I didn't make this up). Players, coaches, concrete. That's the order of priority. You don't go wasting money on expanding your stadium when you're not paying for elite players...

So A&M is buying players again?

13 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

war has been a Browns fan long before JM came along. He just happens to live in Texas.

12 hours ago, wargograw said:

No. My dad’s from Cleveland. Mentor High grad. Parents both went to school in Painesville. And I joined this board in 2015, well after Manziel had arrived on the scene. It’s just d bone’s fallback when he has nothing else. 

Bit later, but still on the butt-end of the wave that brought us an old fart that stuck around as well...

[hoorta]

13 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

If we tear up this staff again, especially the defense.....and some fgt 3-4 DC comes in and stands our DE's up and puts em in bump and run against slot receivers....im going to find ghoolie and slide a piece of lawn furniture  up his butt. That ER visit will be viral within hours.....😁

 

But srsly, must we do this every year? This has been going on for 7-8 years now. Fire this guy, fire that guy....how are so many of u not sick to ur stomachs about the prospect of another offseason staff shakeup? Players? Yeah i get it, u only have so long to produce....but schemes take time to develop and get the right players into. We know for a fact williams has produced not good but great defenses given time....so anyone excited about a HC change that could potentially bring a new DC to clev, Shmuck THAT

I'm not in the 🔥 fire Hue camp- yet. Others in this thread have pointed out his shortcomings. 1-20 pretty much says it all. If Jimmy reamed them a new one after that PATHETIC performance against the Jets (at least in the first half), well- I would have too. The Browns certainly had enough talent to beat them. Hope that butt whipping inspires Hue to start a QB with a 122 qbr, instead of a guy who's dead last in that department, development be dammed.

Hue said preseason it was "about building a winning culture" -  and we're not winning. We might be improved, but it's not showing up in the win column. I haven't looked yet, but I'd bet the ranch the Browns are #32 dead last in all or almost all power rankings. Baby steps? How about moving up to #28, and winning a game or two?

Final thought - Hue goes, Williams is taking over. Book it.

[Tour2ma]

11 hours ago, stillmotion said:

But if Kizer struggles this year (which he will), and Hue says next year "D'arnold is my guy!, he's starting", i'm going to flip, because we spent that time building Kizer, building Kessler, and all for nothing if we take another QB first.

All because of Sashi's experiment, and the theory that we had to get much much worse to get better.

• We did not spend time "building Kessler". Kessler was forced into action due to injury. He continued longer than injury may have dictated because he showed some promise, but as soon as he plateaued and McC was healthy, Kess was yanked. Anyway... that's what I remember. Somewhere there are facts/references to support one of us. So conversing as we are is kinda like commenting without watching a game, isn't it?
• Because Kizer clearly has the tools, seeing if he has, or can develop, the game to go with them is due diligence. Part of that effort is playing him. When and how much is open for discussion, but he has to be played.
• Learning whether or not Kizer can be "the guy" is not "nothing"... in fact it's more likely everything.

As for "Sashi's experiment"... I embrace it. Sorry you do not... for whatever reason. I was tired of trying, and failing, to rise from bad to good. I can tolerate "much... worse" in the short-term... for the very much "better" I believeland is coming.

EDIT: and I forgot... McKay started 0-14 and 2-12 with the Bucs... one of us did check the facts on your "worst ever" bit. Still TBD, but the bar has been set.

6 hours ago, Canton Mike said:

Good post Paul. The only thing I'll add is that I want no trade downs in next years draft.

You may get your wish, but I would not bet on it. If we do not trade up for a QB, then I think we'll see a trade down for 2019 Draft capital somewhere Day One or Two.

Now... admittedly, that 's pretty big "if" based upon where we are today, but we've 12 weeks and 11 games to go.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

6 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I'm not in the 🔥 fire Hue camp- yet. Others in this thread have pointed out his shortcomings. 1-20 pretty much says it all. If Jimmy reamed them a new one after that PATHETIC performance against the Jets (at least in the first half), well- I would have too. The Browns certainly had enough talent to beat them. Hope that butt whipping inspires Hue to start a QB with a 122 qbr, instead of a guy who's dead last in that department, development be dammed.

Hue said preseason it was "about building a winning culture" -  and we're not winning. We might be improved, but it's not showing up in the win column. I haven't looked yet, but I'd bet the ranch the Browns are #32 dead last in all or almost all power rankings. Baby steps? How about moving up to #28, and winning a game or two?

Final thought - Hue goes, Williams is taking over. Book it.

 

"All of us want to win and win immediately,'' Haslam said. "Most of you don't know me that well personally, but I'm an extremely impatient person. But I think we've learned the hard way if you want to do this and do it right, building through the draft and being patient and getting the right people in place is the right way to do it. So it's hard, but it's unequivocally the right thing to do."

[hoorta]

7 minutes ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

 

"All of us want to win and win immediately,'' Haslam said. "Most of you don't know me that well personally, but I'm an extremely impatient person. But I think we've learned the hard way if you want to do this and do it right, building through the draft and being patient and getting the right people in place is the right way to do it. So it's hard, but it's unequivocally the right thing to do."

That's not incompatible with winning a game or two along the way. 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

36 minutes ago, hoorta said:

That's not incompatible with winning a game or two along the way. 

You're right, and we will. But this season was never about winning, and I'll keep saying that until the day that I die. 

[hoorta]

1 minute ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

You're right, and we will. But this season was never about winning, and I'll keep saying that until the day that I die. 

Um, I got that part. But there's bad, and then there's historically bad. 

Just sayin' hard to build a winning culture when you go 2-14. We might even do better than that if we can get everyone on the defense healthy, and Kizer can improve to at least mediocre.  

[Tour2ma]

Oh... and I copyrighted #BabySteps, so war will be hearing from my lawyer...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

33 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Um, I got that part. But there's bad, and then there's historically bad. 

Just sayin' hard to build a winning culture when you go 2-14. We might even do better than that if we can get everyone on the defense healthy, and Kizer can improve to at least mediocre.  

Are you comparing the performance of this team to other teams that have been ripped of almost all of their veteran starters in order to get that historical comparison? In order to get a fair equivalence, you'd have to compare this team to other teams that average just over 24 years old across the board, right? 

I know what you're saying and you're not wrong. This team needs to learn how to win and so far its been extremely tough to watch at times. But to say its historically bad without context isn't doing the team, or your nerves, any justice. I don't know that we've ever been this young and inexperienced across the board. And regardless of what anyone thinks, that is a major factor. This is a JV team trying to play varsity ball, they can hang in there for a bit but mistakes will happen. 

 

[Tour2ma]

13 hours ago, stillmotion said:

I've heard Jimmy had a closed door meeting with all of the front office and Hue to tell them to "Get their Sheet together" and start to progress.

What really bothers me, is that I feel right now the goal isn't to win, and isn't that the ultimate goal in football? to win? instead it's "win later".

Had to return and revisit this...

Does it not strike you that Jimmah's meeting and what bothers you, do not go together?

[Pumpkin Eater]

baby steps.....

 

like when they toddle, stumble, and fall backwards.

[Pumpkin Eater]

And John Fox, btw, inherited a 1-15 Panthers team, took them to 7-9, then 11-5 and a Superbowl appearance in just his second year as head coach. Meanwhile, in Hue's second year, and Sashi's third.....

[dawg2fan]

19 hours ago, Ghoolie said:

F U C K yeah.................. this is some great SHlT. I am so excited about 1 - 20. This is real progress.

 

I can live with being 1-20 as long as we're heading in the right direction.  Whatever it takes to put this team in position to start winning and truly be competitive.  

[dawg2fan]

25 minutes ago, Pumpkin Eater said:

And John Fox, btw, inherited a 1-15 Panthers team, took them to 7-9, then 11-5 and a Superbowl appearance in just his second year as head coach. Meanwhile, in Hue's second year, and Sashi's third.....

But they didn't completely blow up the team first.  We did and we will continue to build this team.  Anyone expecting this team to win a lot games (with basically hall rookies) is crazy.  I heard Rex Ryan say that a team with all rookies will get you fired.  But Haslem is aware of this and will give this team time to completely rebuild. 

[wargograw]

14 hours ago, stillmotion said:

The only problem I have with War's logic is that he didn't even watch the Browns/Jets game.

Therefore, how does he have the right to demand to the whole board that we blindly let Hue and "The plan" have a few more years. When in fact, what people like Mud and myself were doing were simply analyzing some of the questionable coaching calls Hue has made such as blowing timeouts, going for that simple run on 4th down when we were down by 3, and what really got me was how he wouldn't hold himself accountable at all, he believed his plays and calling were perfect, and it's only the execution.

How in the hell is a guy who didn't even watch the game going to tell me that I can't analyze it or question it. That's simply part of being a fan. To blindly follow will get you nowhere. So, wars logic is that we should shut up, and Blindly accept and follow everything Hue and Sashi do when they won't even take the accountability to tell us that their "plan" is behind schedule.

I've heard Jimmy had a closed door meeting with all of the front office and Hue to tell them to "Get their Sheet together" and start to progress. What really bothers me, is that I feel right now the goal isn't to win, and isn't that the ultimate goal in football? to win? instead it's "win later". Well fine, we can lose out the rest of the season and get the first pick. But if Kizer struggles this year (which he will), and Hue says next year "D'arnold is my guy!, he's starting", i'm going to flip, because we spent that time building Kizer, building Kessler, and all for nothing if we take another QB first.

The worst part about Hue is that he seems uncertain at times and that really gets me. Like calling out the field goal team, wasting a timeout, then going for it on fourth and missing it because he said, "the players said they got me". Coach's make mistakes and I get that, but he better stop with the bad clock management. Because if he goes 1-15 again, there will of been no team in history that put up with that much losing from one coach for that long. All because of Sashi's experiment, and the theory that we had to get much much worse to get better.

I'm proud of our D and garrett looks great, but war, please don't talk unless you watch the games. That's what a real fan does.

First off, I had watched the previous three games. I worked overnight (11 PM-7 AM) Saturday night then had to be at work 8 hours later (at 3) on Sunday. So I missed the game this time.  I don't usually, and see my next paragraph.

Watching the game doesn't really matter. We have to give Hue three years pretty much no matter what. Sorry I'm not going to call for his firing because he couldn't keep a timeout in his pocket (and other dumb stuff). It's just not that big a deal.

Nevertheless (and I've told everyone this since last year), if you can't watch the games without wanting to fire everyone, then you need to not watch the games for a year or two while the team builds. There's a reason they don't let your mama come visit you at boot camp....

Lastly, I agree it'd be frustrating to see us take another QB when we've put time into Kizer, but by then Kizer will hopefully have proved beyond all doubt that he is or isn't our QB, so it will have been worth it regardless.

[wargograw]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

So Collins...

• the LB our inept FO traded for and
• signed to a long-term deal...

is replaced by Burgess...

• an undersized, hybrid-ish, LB...
• a 2016 UDFA that never saw the NFL field on D before Collins' concussion yet for some reason our suck-butt FO jumped on back in January...
• before Williams signed on as DC

... and then he leads us in tackles in a game? GTFO...

 

Tour, can you clarify what you're implying here? Not following.

[wargograw]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

 

So A&M is buying players again?

We buy some players, just like most other schools. We just would rather put $500M into a stadium thinking it will bring recruits in rather than doing what is proven to actually bring them in. 

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Are you comparing the performance of this team to other teams that have been ripped of almost all of their veteran starters in order to get that historical comparison? In order to get a fair equivalence, you'd have to compare this team to other teams that average just over 24 years old across the board, right? 

I know what you're saying and you're not wrong. This team needs to learn how to win and so far its been extremely tough to watch at times. But to say its historically bad without context isn't doing the team, or your nerves, any justice. I don't know that we've ever been this young and inexperienced across the board. And regardless of what anyone thinks, that is a major factor. This is a JV team trying to play varsity ball, they can hang in there for a bit but mistakes will happen. 

 

You're right this team is really young- but. The National media isn't going to look that deep TC- the expansion Tampa Bay teams of the 70s are going to be the yardstick- and we're right there with them on the all time suck list. May even have topped them if you count back to our Bengals win a few seasons ago. 

[stillmotion]

1 hour ago, wargograw said:

First off, I had watched the previous three games. I worked overnight (11 PM-7 AM) Saturday night then had to be at work 8 hours later (at 3) on Sunday. So I missed the game this time.  I don't usually, and see my next paragraph.

Watching the game doesn't really matter. We have to give Hue three years pretty much no matter what. Sorry I'm not going to call for his firing because he couldn't keep a timeout in his pocket (and other dumb stuff). It's just not that big a deal.

Nevertheless (and I've told everyone this since last year), if you can't watch the games without wanting to fire everyone, then you need to not watch the games for a year or two while the team builds. There's a reason they don't let your mama come visit you at boot camp....

Lastly, I agree it'd be frustrating to see us take another QB when we've put time into Kizer, but by then Kizer will hopefully have proved beyond all doubt that he is or isn't our QB, so it will have been worth it regardless.

Did I call for his firing after the game? Or did I call out his poor clock management decisions for that single game. Don't put words into my mouth dude. I never said completely end the plan and fire hue, I just called him out for some sub par decisions, and we have to be able to analyze the plan, and acknowledge that it might be behind schedule. I want Hue to man up and admit his mistakes. and Tour, what I meant is that I felt there was uncertainty in the front office and with the coaching towards certain things. Like mud said, Are we completely giving up the season to develop Kizer? If that's the case, don't bench him then. But putting Hogan in will give us a chance to win and provide a QB controversy, hurting his ego along the way. 

[Orion]

23 hours ago, wargograw said:

I don't start alot of threads here

I can't decide how far to go with that one.  -  Someone else take that ball and run with it.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

32 minutes ago, hoorta said:

You're right this team is really young- but. The National media isn't going to look that deep TC- the expansion Tampa Bay teams of the 70s are going to be the yardstick- and we're right there with them on the all time suck list. May even have topped them if you count back to our Bengals win a few seasons ago. 

Maybe it’s just me, but I’m finding it difficult to find National Media publications that are calling us the worst team of all time.

As a matter of fact, I’m having a hard time finding really any National publications that are talking about us at all, outside of “what to watch for- week [whatever]” and “Browns WR corps is hot garbage” articles.

If we’re being completely honest, I’ve seen more rational articles from National publications about the state of the Browns than I have from any Cleveland-based news organizations or reporters. 

It it seems like they understand what’s going on here...which is a lot more than can be said about some “fans” I see that lurk around these parts.

[wargograw]

21 minutes ago, stillmotion said:

Did I call for his firing after the game? Or did I call out his poor clock management decisions for that single game. Don't put words into my mouth dude. I never said completely end the plan and fire hue, I just called him out for some sub par decisions, and we have to be able to analyze the plan, and acknowledge that it might be behind schedule. I want Hue to man up and admit his mistakes. and Tour, what I meant is that I felt there was uncertainty in the front office and with the coaching towards certain things. Like mud said, Are we completely giving up the season to develop Kizer? If that's the case, don't bench him then. But putting Hogan in will give us a chance to win and provide a QB controversy, hurting his ego along the way. 

If you're not calling for the firing then why are you responding? This thread wasn't meant for you. 

13 minutes ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Maybe it’s just me, but I’m finding it difficult to find National Media publications that are calling us the worst team of all time.

As a matter of fact, I’m having a hard time finding really any National publications that are talking about us at all, outside of “what to watch for- week [whatever]” and “Browns WR corps is hot garbage” articles.

If we’re being completely honest, I’ve seen more rational articles from National publications about the state of the Browns than I have from any Cleveland-based news organizations or reporters. 

It it seems like they understand what’s going on here...which is a lot more than can be said about some “fans” I see that lurk around these parts.

Yeah I just heard on local sports radio today the host was going around the NFL and for the Browns he said he loved what Sashi was doing. He gave a very simplified explanation of our process and said it was good but we were taking our lumps. It seems people respect what we're doing. 

What I DO remember is a TON of criticism after firing our last two coaches without giving them a real shot. 

[D Bone]

4 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

 

"All of us want to win and win immediately,'' Haslam said. "Most of you don't know me that well personally, but I'm an extremely impatient person. But I think we've learned the hard way if you want to do this and do it right, building through the draft and being patient and getting the right people in place is the right way to do it. So it's hard, but it's unequivocally the right thing to do."

^ That is the part of the equation that is very much up for debate...... 0-5 / 1-20 isn't a coincidence or accident, and the current (and past) people are responsible for it.

Sooner or later, there has got to be proof that what you are doing is actually working. 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

7 minutes ago, D Bone said:

^ That is the part of the equation that is very much up for debate...... 0-5 / 1-20 isn't a coincidence or accident, and the current (and past) people are responsible for it.

Sooner or later, there has got to be proof that what you are doing is actually working. 

Who’s debating it? It doesn’t seem like anyone in the organization is. The only people that seem to be debating it are the fans who thought we’d have 6 wins this year or the people who wanted [insert player here] instead of [insert other player here].

Its weird... the guys with the most on the line don’t really seem to be panicking as much as the guys who are sitting in their armchairs on Sundays.

[D Bone]

1 minute ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Who’s debating it?

Anyone with a brain who has watched the last 21 games...... Guess you've missed them, or maybe just turned off the TV so you didn't know the outcome? 

[D Bone]

4 minutes ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Its weird... the guys with the most on the line don’t really seem to be panicking as much as the guys who are sitting in their armchairs on Sundays.

Boy, if this doesn't say it all then I don't know what does..... oh wait, I do: 

1-20 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

41 minutes ago, D Bone said:

Anyone with a brain 

Well, you eliminated yourself right then and there, I guess.

 

42 minutes ago, D Bone said:

 Guess you've missed them, or maybe just turned off the TV so you didn't know the outcome? 

I've watched each game about 4 times through already, both broadcast and all-22's. And here's the kicker...I actually know what I'm looking at.

 

41 minutes ago, D Bone said:

1-20 

CLASSIC

[D Bone]

OK, serious question to you TCPO. We all have our limits on anything, so hypothetically speaking, say the Browns continue to lose with the guys they have in place, what do you think your number is until you're like "phukit, this ain't working, something has to change"?

I guess for me it was 1-20. For others here it was 0-1....... What do you guess yours is? 

This is a serious question to see where your patience level stops, or at least where you think it stops.... I thought I could easily get through this year "no matter how bad it got", but I guess I was wrong. 

 

[Tour2ma]

4 hours ago, dawg2fan said:

But they didn't completely blow up the team first.  We did and we will continue to build this team.  Anyone expecting this team to win a lot games (with basically hall rookies) is crazy.  I heard Rex Ryan say that a team with all rookies will get you fired.  But Haslem is aware of this and will give this team time to completely rebuild. 

Correct there was still a nucleus from the most generous expansion draft ever granted an expansion franchise plus some good drafts and trades aloong the way... along with a fair number of clunkers.

In Fox's 1st season they drafted Steve Smith, Sr.. In his 2nd they traded for Jake Delhomme.

3 hours ago, wargograw said:

Tour, can you clarify what you're implying here? Not following.

Sarcasm... pure and simple. I have trouble finding the pink font...

Point was that this Sashi led FO landed both players.

One, Collins, in a brilliant gamble, and then locked him up for 4 years.

And two, an undersized UDFA who sat out a year before they ID'd very early, in the 2017 FA period, and locked him up for two years.

And some people want him gone...

[Dutch Oven]

10 minutes ago, D Bone said:

OK, serious question to you TCPO. We all have our limits on anything, so hypothetically speaking, say the Browns continue to lose with the guys they have in place, what do you think your number is until you're like "phukit, this ain't working, something has to change"?

I guess for me it was 1-20. For others here it was 0-1....... What do you guess yours is? 

This is a serious question to see where your patience level stops, or at least where you think it stops.... I thought I could easily get through this year "no matter how bad it got", but I guess I was wrong. 

 

I literally was going to ask practically the same question.

I don't totally disagree with war or TCPO, and I also totally understand the frustration of the "paycheck to paycheck" Camaro owners.

But I want to know is WHEN is it appropriate to be concerned with the direction of the Browns in your eyes? What is the date when you'll see angry posts by lottery scratch-offers and say: "You know, that guy is right. The Browns are a mess."