Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 If I'm gathering everything correctly, the kneejerk reactions that seems to be prevalent at this current point in time is that: 1. We suck 2. Kizer sucks 3. Hue sucks 4. The playcalling sucks 5. This FO sucks One thing that continually gets overlooked by the "everything sucks" crowd is that we are a young team with young, inexperienced players. For the most part, these are 21-25 year olds with little to no experience. 4 of our offensive starters yesterday had never started an NFL game before this year (Williams, Njoku, Kizer, Coleman). The rest of our WR corps has a total of 3 NFL starts to their name... and all three belong to Ricardo Louis. On the defensive side, we had three starters with 0 starts before this year (Coley, Burgess, Peppers) and Nassib, Kindred and Schobert were spot starters with less than 5 starts to their name. Some of you will say youth isn't an excuse...and you're flat out just wrong. This is more than just normal youth, this is a completely fresh team of legitimate children. And it's not even really close, the next youngest team in the NFL is nearly a full year older than us on average, that means there is a 53 year difference in total ages between our roster and the second youngest team. Some of you will say its the coaches fault that these guys aren't ready... and you're right in the sense that it is the coaches job to progress talent, but its also extremely unfair to expect a team of what is more or less rookies to be polished five games into this season. Drive Killing Penalties It's mid second quarter and we're tied. The offense finally starts rolling and we rattle off three big plays in a row - a 10 yard rush from Crowell, followed by a 21 yard pass from Kizer, followed by another 16 yard rush from Crowell. Now we're sitting at 1st and 10 from the NYJ 32 after we covered half the field in 2 minutes. Then, on the very next play: Holding - David Njoku (10 yard penalty) A rookie bumps us back 10 yards. Fine, next play: False Start - Shon Coleman (5 yard penalty) Just as quickly, we went backwards 15 yards in back-to-back plays. Now we're facing a 1st and 25 from midfield instead of a 1st and 10 from the NYJ 32 and its directly because of the mistakes of two rookies (or one rookie and one basically a rookie). We did not score on this drive. Not only did we not score, NYJ took the ball and drove down the field to get their first-half field goal. So this was a net loss of 6 points because of two stupid as hell penalties from two young as hell rookies. Missed Kicks Gonzalez missed two kicks yesterday. We lost by three points. I am admittedly not the best at math, but I believe that if Gonzalez made even 50% of the kicks he missed yesterday, we'd have sent this game into overtime. Oh, and Gonzalez is also a rookie. Weird how that happens, huh? Stupid Decisions Here's the part where Hoorta gets a boner. Kizer's goal line INT - This was an all around poor effort from Kizer. Bad read coupled with a bad throw. The margin of error is so thin in the redzone that you almost never even want to suggest throwing an out breaking route for this very reason. All of the pieces were there for a goal line pick - rookie QB, questionable accuracy, poor read, late throw. Luckily, our defense got the stop on the ensuing drive, however, that's at least three points off the board that we should have had. At the very least, I'd say this is a loss of 3 points. We should have converted a field goal from this distance. Kizer's goal line fumble - Bad pitch, plain and simple. Crowell COULD have corralled it, but most of the blame lies on Kizer for not putting it in the right spot. A lot of people want to Sheet talk the playcall - well, one...it was a kill call by Kizer so he audibled INTO it. Two, it was the correct call by Kizer. It's a minus-1 look- there's one unaccounted for defensive hat playside of the center (4 defenders, 3 blockers), making it an easy run look. You leave the last hat on the line as your free rusher and pitch key - he can't cover both Kizer and Crowell so Kizer reads his angle and makes the appropriate call. This is an easy call and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Execution on the pitch is what killed the play. For those who still want to talk out of their butt and question that call - at the moment of the pitch, there's nothing but open grass for Crowell. This is a loss of 6 points, as its clearly going to be a touchdown. Take away one of these plays....any one of them... and this is a different game. Our inexperience is what led to our demise in this game. Not playcalling, not awful defense, not a bad HC. Youth. And it will happen again, because you can't feign experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 I promise TCPO and I did not plan this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted October 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, wargograw said: I promise TCPO and I did not plan this. what a a hell of a coincidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickers Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 More cowpoop excuses... Call us when you pen something of note or interest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam222 Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Nice write up. I agree with most with the exception of kicker. It's a pretty narrow skill requested and required. When you miss 3 within 2 games you are cut bait IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted October 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 hour ago, nickers said: More cowpoop excuses... Call us when you pen something of note or interest... First mate of the SS Dumbass - reporting for duty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Everything in the OP makes sense. Unfortunately a large portion of this fanbase is doomed to just bitch and moan about everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDDawg Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 It will be a few years before this team is competitive. The FO seems obsessed with youth and shuns veterans, what was the point of replacing the kicker Codey Parkey (who hasn't missed a kick and has been AFC special teams player of the week this season) with Gonzalez? Why trade Demario Davis, cut Joe Haden, swap Pryor with Britt? Even if you draft well, it takes 2-3 yrs for that player to be fully productive. At this rate we won't be competitive till 2020 at the earliest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 TC, you should know by now- it's not just Kizer's mistakes that make him a mistake in my mind. He's (at this point) way too inaccurate, especially on sideline throws to his right. Hue is just too much in love with the big arm to see the rest of his shortcomings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted October 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 10 hours ago, hoorta said: TC, you should know by now- it's not just Kizer's mistakes that make him a mistake in my mind. He's (at this point) way too inaccurate, especially on sideline throws to his right. Hue is just too much in love with the big arm to see the rest of his shortcomings. It's almost as if he's playing like a rookie on a bad team with no WRs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickers Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 17 minutes ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said: It's almost as if he's playing like a rookie on a bad team with no WRs. I guess your just gonna ignore the facts presented by Mud... Same Players!.. Same Coaches! Same Competition! Kizers development is in a consistent downslide..... Game 1 = 85 rating - 66% comp game 3 = 50 rating - 47% comp game 5 = 38 rating - 47% comp Hogans development is in a consistent UPswing..... Game 1 = 58 rating - 45% comp game 2 = 88 rating - 62% comp game 3 = 122 rating - 84% comp Same players....same coaches.....same competition....ONE guy is clearly "developing" and one guy is clearly "sucking".... Can you guess which is which??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 16 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said: Some of you will say youth isn't an excuse...and you're flat out just wrong. Stupid Decisions Kizer's goal line INT - This was an all around poor effort from Kizer. Bad read coupled with a bad throw. The margin of error is so thin in the redzone that you almost never even want to suggest throwing an out breaking route for this very reason. All of the pieces were there for a goal line pick - rookie QB, questionable accuracy, poor read, late throw. Luckily, our defense got the stop on the ensuing drive, however, that's at least three points off the board that we should have had. At the very least, I'd say this is a loss of 3 points. We should have converted a field goal from this distance. Kizer's goal line fumble - Bad pitch, plain and simple. Crowell COULD have corralled it, but most of the blame lies on Kizer for not putting it in the right spot. A lot of people want to Sheet talk the playcall - well, one...it was a kill call by Kizer so he audibled INTO it. Two, it was the correct call by Kizer. It's a minus-1 look- there's one unaccounted for defensive hat playside of the center (4 defenders, 3 blockers), making it an easy run look. You leave the last hat on the line as your free rusher and pitch key - he can't cover both Kizer and Crowell so Kizer reads his angle and makes the appropriate call. This is an easy call and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Execution on the pitch is what killed the play. For those who still want to talk out of their butt and question that call - at the moment of the pitch, there's nothing but open grass for Crowell. Excuse... it's a loaded word. I prefer "reason". We grow out of youth by retaining vets... vets of our chosing like Bito, Zeitler, Danny, Collins... We can keep adding 10 rookies a year and grow older and more experienced as a team because we retain vets we have raised from kids. The INT... First, have to say they i was wrong in an earlier post on this when I mistakenly said there was a receiver running against the grain to the top corner... there wasn't... but there should be. It's possible that option just invites trouble. There do appear to be two Jets not pursuing the boot right. Second, and this is grad level stuff, but a vet QB sees that: He has no angle to throw to his TE due to the coverage trailing under the route. The deeper DB covering the 2nd of this 2-man(?) route has his back to the play. I can see Aaron Rodgers pointing for his TE to bend to the corner fade. Then if the TE breaks free it's a TD, but if the DB bends to maintain his cover it's Aaron to the flag... errrrr... pylon. The point being that the QB in this play has an opportunity to force the DB into a difficult decision instead of trying to throw the ball thru him... The botched pitch (FUMBLE has been taken... for all time...) First, the fault in the play execution is obvious. In the classic option the RB is always a 45 deg angle pitch away from the QB.... typically 3 yards outside and 3 yards behind. Crow was relatively flat to Kizer here. Second, in part the flat angle was due to the shot gun formation. Either under center of the pistol sets up the proper angle from the snap. As we ran it the angle has to be set by either Kizer pressing the edge harder (dangerous) or Crow bowing backward (self-defeating). We actually did the later. In addition to giving away yardage Crow would then have to retake in a sprint to the pylon, he changes his body angle to Kizer; he makes himself a more difficult target. But as much as I dislike the play formation, I dislike the apparent lack of preparation, of repetitions displayed. It had a look of a play that worked well in practice once or twice, so let's move on. Good stuff, TC... keep 'em coming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 16 hours ago, jcam222 said: Nice write up. I agree with most with the exception of kicker. It's a pretty narrow skill requested and required. When you miss 3 within 2 games you are cut bait IMO. Going to disagree here... Zane showed at ASU that he's a reliable kicker. He was an All-American. He had a bad day on Sunday. If it continues, we'll look, but for now i just coach him up. 13 hours ago, MDDawg said: It will be a few years before this team is competitive. The FO seems obsessed with youth and shuns veterans, what was the point of replacing the kicker Codey Parkey (who hasn't missed a kick and has been AFC special teams player of the week this season) with Gonzalez? Why trade Demario Davis, cut Joe Haden, swap Pryor with Britt? Even if you draft well, it takes 2-3 yrs for that player to be fully productive. At this rate we won't be competitive till 2020 at the earliest. I've got 2019 penciled in for AFCN competitiveness... 2020 playoff. On Gonzo... the simple answer is leg. Lotta crying here last year about his lack of leg. If I search will I find your name amongst the rabble? Meanwhile this year I think we've had to cover one kickoff... and that was because we chose to following a penalty on an extra point. It was a pretty pooch kick, too... 11 hours ago, hoorta said: TC, you should know by now- it's not just Kizer's mistakes that make him a mistake in my mind. He's (at this point) way too inaccurate, especially on sideline throws to his right. Hue is just too much in love with the big arm to see the rest of his shortcomings. Emphasis added... Hue is on a quest to see if we have our franchise QB or not. You're hung up on winning "a meaningless extra game or two". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 13 hours ago, MDDawg said: It will be a few years before this team is competitive. The FO seems obsessed with youth and shuns veterans, what was the point of replacing the kicker Codey Parkey (who hasn't missed a kick and has been AFC special teams player of the week this season) with Gonzalez? Why trade Demario Davis, cut Joe Haden, swap Pryor with Britt? Even if you draft well, it takes 2-3 yrs for that player to be fully productive. At this rate we won't be competitive till 2020 at the earliest. Been hearing that for a hell of a lot longer then a 'few' years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 20 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said: Take away one of these plays....any one of them... and this is a different game. Our inexperience is what led to our demise in this game. Not playcalling, not awful defense, not a bad HC. Youth. And it will happen again, because you can't feign experience. Great as always my man, before I say my piece. While youth made a lot of bad plays, Hue still made a Shmucking terrible decision to not take the three points on the goal line. I don't have the time (seriously) but it's something when I do about how many straight up objectively WRONG decisions Hue has made to cost us a chance at games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Eater Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 1. No QB 2. No RB 3. Piss poor coaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 TCPO, you made a big mistake trying to actually discuss football with these pitchforkers. Calling them a bunch of idiots will get you alot more response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawg2fan Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 21 hours ago, jcam222 said: Nice write up. I agree with most with the exception of kicker. It's a pretty narrow skill requested and required. When you miss 3 within 2 games you are cut bait IMO. I can recall early that Cody Parkey miss a few early in last season (especially the Miami game). Many thought he should've stayed and let Gonzales go. Rookie Kickers will make mistakes, you just have to live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam222 Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 hour ago, dawg2fan said: I can recall early that Cody Parkey miss a few early in last season (especially the Miami game). Many thought he should've stayed and let Gonzales go. Rookie Kickers will make mistakes, you just have to live with it. Parkey missed them when he showed up in Cleveland a day or two ahead of the first game he kicked in. Kicking is all about timing with the snapper and holder. Once he had the timing over the next week he was golden. Gonzalez has worked with them for months. Inexcusable rookie or not in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted October 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 3 hours ago, jrb12711 said: Great as always my man, before I say my piece. While youth made a lot of bad plays, Hue still made a Shmucking terrible decision to not take the three points on the goal line. I don't have the time (seriously) but it's something when I do about how many straight up objectively WRONG decisions Hue has made to cost us a chance at games. He did, and I won’t argue that. He’s made plenty of questionable calls. The thing is about 50% of the NFL coaching staff makes bad calls on a weekly basis. Reid is constantly called into question for his clock management. Fox is currently being chastised today for decisions from last night. Garrett too, for Sunday. Fisher, Carroll, Arians, Shanahan - all guys that have had notable issues with clock management. For kicks, just type in “NFL poor clock management” in Google and look at the results, you’ll probably see most coaches mentioned at some point in the first 5 pages of results. The thing is, Hue’s failures are exacerbated because we’re bad EVERYWHERE right now (save for maybe overall defense). When you have a young team that’s already shooting itself in the foot with turnovers and penalties, things like clock management gaffs are scrutinized even more because they’re harder to overcome. I’m not giving him a pass by any means but I’m also not overly worried about it as it stands right now. https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/09/05/nfl-clock-management-andy-reid-homer-smith This is a really great article on the intricacies of clock management, with interviews from current and former head coaches and examples of Shmuckups across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 I'm an old guy & like an aging veteran NFL player, on my downside. I like these young players (like my Grandchildren)...They're on their upside & they have nowhere to look but up & forward. We, as Fans, need to be looking WITH them & supporting them in that upward journey. The plan is right...TO the future, not IN the past. Better days are ahead. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawg2fan Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 29 minutes ago, jcam222 said: Parkey missed them when he showed up in Cleveland a day or two ahead of the first game he kicked in. Kicking is all about timing with the snapper and holder. Once he had the timing over the next week he was golden. Gonzalez has worked with them for months. Inexcusable rookie or not in my book. So you don't think there any Kickers that started out "not so good", but ended up having a good career? Give the kid a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 hour ago, jcam222 said: Parkey missed them when he showed up in Cleveland a day or two ahead of the first game he kicked in. Kicking is all about timing with the snapper and holder. Once he had the timing over the next week he was golden. Ah yes... I can still hear that golden ringing when he hit the upright in Miami... twas lovely... one of three he missed that day. Vaguely remember him hitting the upright twice, but maynbe not. Anyway at the end of that day he'd missed three of the five he missed between 40-49 yd on the season. Also seem to recall us passing up a FG try or four of 40+ during the season because we knew his limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Canton Mike said: I'm an old guy & like an aging veteran NFL player, on my downside. I like these young players (like my Grandchildren)...They're on their upside & they have nowhere to look but up & forward. We, as Fans, need to be looking WITH them & supporting them in that upward journey. The plan is right...TO the future, not IN the past. Better days are ahead. Mike Old man Mike in his rocking chair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 32 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said: Old man Mike in his rocking chair. Damned right boy!!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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