More Peyton Manning speculation

[Unsympathetic]

Everyone really needs to get over the notion of this FO being some sort of wild new thing.  I've grown tired of even attempting to inform all the people who assert "anal lytics" as the one single reason why anything is happening.

As with the reality of life, nothing is simple enough to be accurately described by a black-and-white description.  [analytics is always bad! no it is forever good!]

EVERY team uses analytics. 100%. Not some, not part, not half -- all 32.  The difference is in precisely how much weight is given to the opinion of the numbers guy.. thus the differences are more like 5%, 10% between the team with the least numbers impact and the team with the most.. very much pennies on the dollar.  Even on the Browns it's not 100% run by the moneyball guy -- it's still shared decision making.

And even once you understand that.. the reality is that a human ultimately assigns the ranking of all players.  What if a player who "made football plays" was given a good number by a football guy after watching video? Is that "anal lytics" or a "decision made by a football guy" ?

 

Examples of questions that determine the precise impact of a number vs "bad snap decisions made by someone we wish desperately was a football guy" are:

Does the analytics determine the list of the lowest 30 players and their potential UDFA or practice squad potential replacements?  All 52? Where does it start and stop?

Does analytics develop a list for every available college player for draft day.. and where does it take over? after the first round? At the start? Never?  This is very similar to how you'd enter a FF draft.. do you just cross players off a list and then pick the highest, or is RB weak and so you're taking a RB now even though WR might be the BPA per the list you developed?

 

If a player looks good one year but sucks the next [we'll call this imaginary player "Kenny Britt"] why does that not challenge your presumption that the football guy is always right...

[stillmotion]

4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

• war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
• war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
• Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
• First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.

I have no problem with him believing in the plan, but for me, I'm not saying I want to fire anyone, and he's generalizing that everyone who questions some of the moves made, or coaching, that we all are in the same category of wanting to blow it up, that's just not true man. Things aren't so black and white, and for myself, I find myself in the middle, wanting us to win. I never saw the Browns win. I'm 27. They were moved when I was a kid. I understand the process, but being able to analyze what's going on is what makes us able to track the progress. I think the team has talent, but Hue has horrible clock management and he needs an offensive coordinator. He also seems very unsure of himself at times (for example, now Kessler's 2nd string and Hogan's 3rd string). I definitely think our front office means well, but this experiment is moving rapidly slow.

I know you question the FO and Hue, I was just talking about War. Everytime I brought up Hue's clock management I got flamed and was basically told to shutup and wait by him.

But what really set me off, was paying $400 to attend the Texans game (I know you went as well), and see us get blown out so pathetically bad.

EVERY Browns game i've ever went to, from a Steelers one, to the Lions one with the horrible Weeden interception, we've been beat horribly or lost a completely ridiculous way at the last minute. Having Texans fans gloat in my face that my team is a joke doesn't make me feel good. Cheering so hard and giving Jimmy my money to watch us not give effort or show ANY progress at all that game absolutely KILLED me. I don't even care if we go 0-16, I just want to see some damn fire. Some competitiveness. I want our players to make plays, to grow and get better. So far, we look worse every week. And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones? I guess no one is accountable in Cleveland. We'll always have people give excuses about how we have a lack of talent. But Pettine seemed to make the team click and smash for us at a time. We were growing and getting better than and it was fun and exciting to watch. That's all I want. Progress, to show we're headed in the right direction. And I truly, really really hope we get that. Because spending money and giving up every Sunday looking like a fool is getting old.

Of course i'm going to be fired up after a loss like that. But hey man i've always appreciated and respected your opinion. I hope you understand why I'm frustrated as well since you were at the game too.

[Unsympathetic]

2 hours ago, stillmotion said:

And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones?

 

Precisely what would they need to do to "demonstrate accountability" ? Sit Britt? Like.. they have? FYI, pryor is sucking in DC.. 16/209/1, basically Britt if given lots more plays.  Britt was viewed as the same player as Pryor, and in large measure that's true because they both are animated testicles in shoulder pads.  I'll never agree that firing a FO person demonstrates anything other than ignorant management if any one specific FA acquisition doesn't work out, because then the rational response would be to never take the risk of signing FA.

This statement really is a copout -- of course there's no way to "be accountable" as a leader if the player only cared the year he was to become FA. Britt was viewed as solid when he was signed.

 

Note that all the people who bought the NFL's most expensive defense of the 2015 season were in fact made accountable for their series of terrible decisions..

[flyingfooldoug]

For a whole lot of words being written, a whole lot of new players and still no pop! They suck as bad this year as last, and the year before and, yada,yada yada.  No beef. No playmakers, no real talent. This FO can stay forever. No fudge! Fudging losing is all they are and know!

[wargograw]

3 hours ago, stillmotion said:

I have no problem with him believing in the plan, but for me, I'm not saying I want to fire anyone, and he's generalizing that everyone who questions some of the moves made, or coaching, that we all are in the same category of wanting to blow it up, that's just not true man. Things aren't so black and white, and for myself, I find myself in the middle, wanting us to win. I never saw the Browns win. I'm 27. They were moved when I was a kid. I understand the process, but being able to analyze what's going on is what makes us able to track the progress. I think the team has talent, but Hue has horrible clock management and he needs an offensive coordinator. He also seems very unsure of himself at times (for example, now Kessler's 2nd string and Hogan's 3rd string). I definitely think our front office means well, but this experiment is moving rapidly slow.

I know you question the FO and Hue, I was just talking about War. Everytime I brought up Hue's clock management I got flamed and was basically told to shutup and wait by him.

But what really set me off, was paying $400 to attend the Texans game (I know you went as well), and see us get blown out so pathetically bad.

EVERY Browns game i've ever went to, from a Steelers one, to the Lions one with the horrible Weeden interception, we've been beat horribly or lost a completely ridiculous way at the last minute. Having Texans fans gloat in my face that my team is a joke doesn't make me feel good. Cheering so hard and giving Jimmy my money to watch us not give effort or show ANY progress at all that game absolutely KILLED me. I don't even care if we go 0-16, I just want to see some damn fire. Some competitiveness. I want our players to make plays, to grow and get better. So far, we look worse every week. And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones? I guess no one is accountable in Cleveland. We'll always have people give excuses about how we have a lack of talent. But Pettine seemed to make the team click and smash for us at a time. We were growing and getting better than and it was fun and exciting to watch. That's all I want. Progress, to show we're headed in the right direction. And I truly, really really hope we get that. Because spending money and giving up every Sunday looking like a fool is getting old.

Of course i'm going to be fired up after a loss like that. But hey man i've always appreciated and respected your opinion. I hope you understand why I'm frustrated as well since you were at the game too.

I can't keep track of everyone's opinions every week so sorry if I've lumped you in with the pro-firers. However, you are in fact doing alot of complaining. And there is a difference between valid criticism and just complaining. My major concern here is that, no matter how much folks want to deny it, the fans influence what goes on. Places like messageboards, water coolers, your local diner, etc. are places where narratives about the team get set. And they trickle upward. People talk about it at the tailgate. People call in to their local radio stations (if said radio station didn't help set the narrative in the first place). They write Jimmy. Etc. Eventually, Jimmy is hearing it and gets a feel for how upset everyone is and lo and behold, he scraps everything. 

I try to do my little part in preventing that because blowing everything up is the absolutely last thing we need right now. 

Also, how are they supposed to show accountability for Britt? Do you expect an email that someone got fired? Do you think people should be fired for one mistake? Or how about just fined? Are you going to tell your NFC scout he owes you 25 sprints (and then email the fans about it so they get their pound of flesh)? Think man. Not gonna happen. 

Going to the Houston game sucked. What a bunch of trashy fans. But that's why I tell people, if you can't handle following the team during this rocky stage, then please just take a year or two off and come back later. I won't blame you. But what is completely unhelpful is people that go to games all hyped up (because the stadium experience lends itself to that), the team gets embarrassed, and then they want said pound of flesh. 

Hue is striking me as pretty questionable but, as I've said before:

a. Almost every single vet on the team has been taken away from him, ergo he does not have good players. 

b. If we're not fair in evaluating him (ie. give him a few years), then no one is going to want this job next time around. 

So I am waiting until MINIMUM end of 2018 to even think about firing Hue Jackson. 

And I'm going to graciously skip over all the pining for the Pettine days. 

26 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

 

Precisely what would they need to do to "demonstrate accountability" ? Sit Britt? Like.. they have? FYI, pryor is sucking in DC.. 16/209/1, basically Britt if given lots more plays.  Britt was viewed as the same player as Pryor, and in large measure that's true because they both are animated testicles in shoulder pads.  I'll never agree that firing a FO person demonstrates anything other than ignorant management if any one specific FA acquisition doesn't work out, because then the rational response would be to never take the risk of signing FA.

This statement really is a copout -- of course there's no way to "be accountable" as a leader if the player only cared the year he was to become FA. Britt was viewed as solid when he was signed.

 

Note that all the people who bought the NFL's most expensive defense of the 2015 season were in fact made accountable for their series of terrible decisions..

Exactly. 

7 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

1. war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
2. war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
3. Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
4. First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.

None are so blind as those who will not see...

Special Consultant works for me... and if he shows to have the chops for more, then expand his role later.

I stay quiet about alot of my criticisms, because I don't want to further foment the anger and cause the regime to get blown up. The only things I can think of that I was mad about AT THE TIME (not criticizing in retrospect like most folks):

-not somehow retaining Schwartz (I realize we were in a terrible position) (also, I got over this when I saw Shon Coleman play)

-Corey Coleman (though I was ok with the general idea of taking 4 receivers thinking that would set us for the next 5 years)

-letting Pryor walk

-drafting Peppers

 

I'm plum out of anything else. 

On Hue, like I said, I'm taking a wait and see approach. I don't think coaches make much of a difference in the NFL though. Unless someone's just a complete savant or complete Retard, you're basically going to win as many games as your talent dictates, on the mean (of course most bad coaches are not granted long enough to even come up with a reasonable sample size with which to determine a mean). So from the coaching standpoint, I don't really care one way or the other. But what he IS is a great motivator and player's coach, and I see great value in that, especially when you have at least one coordinator with whom you can be completely hands off. 

[flyingfooldoug]

Jimmy sucks!

[Westside Steve]

Great motivator? Players coach? It seems to me that a players coach will have some success after a few years of a strict military discipline regime and the players get to take the gloves off. Or the yoke depending on your point of view. This is the youngest team in the league and might do well with a little bit of discipline you think?

Seriously didn't coach Jackson ask them to be cool during the national anthem but they sort of flipped him off?

WSS

[gumby73]

8 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

For a whole lot of words being written, a whole lot of new players and still no pop! They suck as bad this year as last, and the year before and, yada,yada yada.  No beef. No playmakers, no real talent. This FO can stay forever. No fudge! Fudging losing is all they are and know!

We may have some offensive playmakers?..But as we have seen from TB,Tenn,Philly, Texans & Rams they start to show up with a QB..Than a Coach that can adapt to his QB's strengths..Not yellow blocks into round holes with Bl-hue hammers  

[jrb12711]

15 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

1.  

Special Consultant works for me... and if he shows to have the chops for more, then expand his role later.

The only problem with that is a dude like Peyton Manning isn't going to settle for "special consultant" which I totally understand. I think you gotta put more meat on the bones.

[Tour2ma]

So many posts... so little time...

20 hours ago, hoorta said:

I really think 'ol Sashi and DePo expected way better than 1-21. And counting BTW. 

This season, yes... I've no doubt, but my comment was related to the teardown and the 2016 season... so there's that.

20 hours ago, D Bone said:

There is not a single doubt in my mind they expected far better...... and if they didn't, then they need to get the hell out of the organization this second.  

Have you seen Moneyball? Remember the scene where Pitt and DePo sit down with the owner and project "7 games behind by the All-Star break" when they were way down in the standings early in the season and a laughing stock? I'm sure there was some of that going on in front of Haslam as well both before the season and in Jimmah's recent "come to Jesus" session.

I don't know what numbers were presented in either meeting, but if I had to guess.. and you know I do... then before the season 4-12 give or take was likely advertised and more recently 2-14, if Kizer develops... and we stay relatively healthy.

While not fun for anyone I doubt the meet was career altering.

[Tour2ma]

19 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

Everyone really needs to get over the notion of this FO being some sort of wild new thing.  I've grown tired of even attempting to inform all the people who assert "anal lytics" as the one single reason why anything is happening.

As with the reality of life, nothing is simple enough to be accurately described by a black-and-white description.  [analytics is always bad! no it is forever good!]

EVERY team uses analytics. 100%. Not some, not part, not half -- all 32.  The difference is in precisely how much weight is given to the opinion of the numbers guy.. thus the differences are more like 5%, 10% between the team with the least numbers impact and the team with the most.. very much pennies on the dollar.  Even on the Browns it's not 100% run by the moneyball guy -- it's still shared decision making.

And even once you understand that.. the reality is that a human ultimately assigns the ranking of all players.  What if a player who "made football plays" was given a good number by a football guy after watching video? Is that "anal lytics" or a "decision made by a football guy" ?

 

Examples of questions that determine the precise impact of a number vs "bad snap decisions made by someone we wish desperately was a football guy" are:

Does the analytics determine the list of the lowest 30 players and their potential UDFA or practice squad potential replacements?  All 52? Where does it start and stop?

Does analytics develop a list for every available college player for draft day.. and where does it take over? after the first round? At the start? Never?  This is very similar to how you'd enter a FF draft.. do you just cross players off a list and then pick the highest, or is RB weak and so you're taking a RB now even though WR might be the BPA per the list you developed?

 

If a player looks good one year but sucks the next [we'll call this imaginary player "Kenny Britt"] why does that not challenge your presumption that the football guy is always right...

I think I'm in love... sorry 'bout that...

[Tour2ma]

16 hours ago, stillmotion said:

I have no problem with him believing in the plan, but for me, I'm not saying I want to fire anyone, and he's generalizing that everyone who questions some of the moves made, or coaching, that we all are in the same category of wanting to blow it up, that's just not true man. Things aren't so black and white, and for myself, I find myself in the middle, wanting us to win. I never saw the Browns win. I'm 27. They were moved when I was a kid. I understand the process, but being able to analyze what's going on is what makes us able to track the progress. I think the team has talent, but Hue has horrible clock management and he needs an offensive coordinator. He also seems very unsure of himself at times (for example, now Kessler's 2nd string and Hogan's 3rd string). I definitely think our front office means well, but this experiment is moving rapidly slow.

I know you question the FO and Hue, I was just talking about War. Everytime I brought up Hue's clock management I got flamed and was basically told to shutup and wait by him.

But what really set me off, was paying $400 to attend the Texans game (I know you went as well), and see us get blown out so pathetically bad.

I don't even care if we go 0-16, I just want to see some damn fire. Some competitiveness. I want our players to make plays, to grow and get better. So far, we look worse every week. And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones? I guess no one is accountable in Cleveland.

We'll always have people give excuses about how we have a lack of talent. But Pettine seemed to make the team click and smash for us at a time. We were growing and getting better than and it was fun and exciting to watch. That's all I want. Progress, to show we're headed in the right direction. And I truly, really really hope we get that. Because spending money and giving up every Sunday looking like a fool is getting old.

Of course i'm going to be fired up after a loss like that. But hey man i've always appreciated and respected your opinion. I hope you understand why I'm frustrated as well since you were at the game too.

As is your right... I left NRG in the dumper as well... but I have a job to do here, so it was back on the horse.

Commonality, first... Questioning Hue's game management from his use of TOs to playcalling to seeming lack of adapting his O to the talent on hand is all fair game, IMO. Sunday is a perfect example. It seemed... and my memory could be faulty here... that as soon as we went down 10-3 he went away from under-center runs and PAP to shotgun, read option, pass happy Hue. And in our first series we did move the ball.

As for accountability... specifically for Britt? Someone just may take the fall for that idea... we may never know who it was... and that's the way it should be. But there can always be a case of "did not see that coming" and this may be it. Good career... breakout year in his prior season... a DC who knew him or at least saw him in practices and heard about his work ethic, skills, etc., in staff meetings... sure seems like the bases were covered.

So if it was a case of a true consensus that came together with everyone pretty well in lock step and no one "champion" that pushed hard to bring the group together, then you have to ask what did we miss? Learn from the error and move on. Could even be as simple as Britt is not a fast-ball catcher... and we paired him with a fast-ball thrower. Could be our rookie QB settles in in the 2nd half of the season, develops a modicum of "touch" and Britt's numbers improve. We shall see...

The more I look back on Pet's 7-9 season, the more it seems like an overachieving outlier. I did not see it at the time, but starting thinking that late in the season after Hoyer cracked. Then of course Young Shanny moved on, Pet left the D to fouce on the O and... well... we all know the rest.

Nothing more I can say but to reiterate that if you are judging this team based upon "success", then it's going to be hard to bear these next *sigh* 11 weeks. But if you look for "progress", then you have a shot at making it thru with your sanity relatively intact.

Dr. Tour is here to help... It always can be worse...

... you could be going to London!

[Tour2ma]

15 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

For a whole lot of words being written...

Well... it is a forum... so there's that.

But thanks for limiting your participation.

6 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

The only problem with that is a dude like Peyton Manning isn't going to settle for "special consultant" which I totally understand. I think you gotta put more meat on the bones.

May well be true... but I would not do so.

[Tour2ma]

4 hours ago, boo fagley said:

Its Hue, but Sashi hired Hue so he goes up river for driving the get away car.

The way it always goes that in a few years some of Sashis moves will turn into gold. Just like Pioli in Kansas City. I still agree 100% with the Kizer pick because Sashi had a 2 year plan when you include the 2018 draft class. But Hue has shown nothing so its likely best the whole thing blows up. I just hope the new regime picks a stud QB because this is the biggest draft in Browns history.

Blame half, but best we blow up the whole? You are usually more logical than that.

[stillmotion]

54 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

As for accountability... specifically for Britt? Someone just may take the fall for that idea... we may never know who it was...

I'm only looking for progress this year. But with the whole "accountability thing", Britt was just one example. I remember when Pettine had to give the press conferences after all of his losses and it was horrible to show. The FO never really spoke much at all, and I just want to know why they thought trading down was a better idea. and if we lose a ton, I don't want all of the pressure on Hue like it's all his fault. How come Jimmy stays as far away from the spotlight as possible, Sashi doesn't rarely ever talk to the press, and I haven't heard a thing from Depo. If we missed on Wentz and Watson in the future, and it's proven, are we completely okay with it? I'd say as long as someday we get a real QB. A Franchise Quarterback. But we might be "progressing" a little more if we took a QB higher, earlier. Now we just seem unsure about the QB position in general, and that's tough heading into year 3.

One could argue bringing in britt, or trading down were bad decisions. So if one day, they prove to be bad decisions, maybe we should add a person in the mix with actual "football" knowledge who's opinion is valuable, and could help point us in the right direction.

Jimmy was okay throwing Pettine under the bus, and not taking accountability for losing, and for the Farmer situation. Farmer was still under the delusion that he was smart and doing his job well.

[wargograw]

8 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Great motivator? Players coach? It seems to me that a players coach will have some success after a few years of a strict military discipline regime and the players get to take the gloves off. Or the yoke depending on your point of view. This is the youngest team in the league and might do well with a little bit of discipline you think?

Seriously didn't coach Jackson ask them to be cool during the national anthem but they sort of flipped him off?

WSS

Players quit on the military guy after a few losses. 

[Westside Steve]

3 minutes ago, wargograw said:

Players quit on the military guy after a few losses. 

There are probably many lanes on the highway to failure.

WSS

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, stillmotion said:

1. I remember when Pettine had to give the press conferences after all of his losses and it was horrible to show. The FO never really spoke much at all, and I just want to know why they thought trading down was a better idea. and if we lose a ton, I don't want all of the pressure on Hue like it's all his fault.
2. How come Jimmy stays as far away from the spotlight as possible,
3. Sashi doesn't rarely ever talk to the press, and I haven't heard a thing from Depo.
4. If we missed on Wentz and Watson in the future, and it's proven, are we completely okay with it? I'd say as long as someday we get a real QB. A Franchise Quarterback. But we might be "progressing" a little more if we took a QB higher, earlier. Now we just seem unsure about the QB position in general, and that's tough heading into year 3.
5. One could argue bringing in britt, or trading down were bad decisions. So if one day, they prove to be bad decisions, maybe we should add a person in the mix with actual "football" knowledge who's opinion is valuable, and could help point us in the right direction.
6. Jimmy was okay throwing Pettine under the bus, and not taking accountability for losing, and for the Farmer situation. Farmer was still under the delusion that he was smart and doing his job well.

1. GMs best stay out of the spotlight in season. They do their pre- and post-draft pressers, their TC opening/closing pressers, their postseason assessment and maybe a bye week presser.
2. Because Jimmah has learned... but I did just find him (or at least who appears to be him) on Twitter. Sent him some positive vibes...
3. Sashi has actually done more interviews than Farmer. Most of the biggies listed above, plus some informal one-on-ones. DePo? Not going to hear him more than once a year or so. He had his introductory presser and did an article interview a while back.
4. Missing hurts, but when you look at either QB "we passed on" you have to take the view as to whether you'd have done the trade up to get them... whether you would have given what we got. For me that makes the trade downs easier, but if we do not go into 2018 season with our future QB rostered, then...
5. Adding better talent evaluators is part of the process. You will see turnover in scouting this offseason... again. But when you or anyone else here says "guy with Football Knowledge" I read "proven Football Expert". Those guys, if available, typically don't join FO teams in consensus process, they run FOs, and often do not play well with others. And if they are available.... Why? Wanted a fresh challenge? More likely their luck ran out.
6. We saw who Farmer was late in his tenure. It wasn't pretty. Imagine working with that guy for two years. Oh... and BTW... he was a "guy with Football Knowledge"... the brains behind the rise of the KC Chiefs... at least that was the word around here.

51 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

There are probably many lanes on the highway to failure.

Confucius? Or Woo-Tang Clan?

[Westside Steve]

36 minutes ago, boo fagley said:

Hue was a poor choice for HC

Maybe he was. The reason I supported that selection is because it seems like we've settled for coaches that nobody else wanted the last couple of opportunities. Hue Jackson was a consensus hot commodity and the Browns pull the trigger to get him here. Nobody in the Press nobody on the board could bitch that we settled for leftovers yet again.

But we band together to make excuses for the head coach the front office the rookie quarterback etc etc etc. Fair enough. It just gets old. I would assume that if the plan was to suck worse than anybody in the history of football four draft picks that the ownership must surely be aware of that? Because if Jimmy and his dumbass wife were counting on some success in season number two I have to imagine they are already looking for the eject switch.

WSS

[Tour2ma]

6 hours ago, boo fagley said:

Hue was a poor choice for HC, but Sashi has the Browns set up next draft and for the future.

Too bad Sashi wont be around to see it come together.New GM and HC is the only way to go.

Define some time frames and terms, and I believe we can generate a little action here.

Since you are so Socksure, I'll let you take the first stab at doing so.

[hoorta]

On 10/19/2017 at 1:57 PM, Tour2ma said:

Nothing more I can say but to reiterate that if you are judging this team based upon "success", then it's going to be hard to bear these next *sigh* 11 weeks. But if you look for "progress", then you have a shot at making it thru with your sanity relatively intact.

Dr. Tour is here to help... It always can be worse...

... you could be going to London!

Or, you could reach the point I'm at- I just plain don't care anymore this season IF they lose, or HOW BADLY they lose. 

And after dropping a wad of cash going to the Texans game, thank God I bailed on the London trip. 

[Tour2ma]

First, "Socksure"??? Really, Stan?

Second, yes, to generate action one usually takes the opposite side of the bet.