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6 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Which of these Browns that are not under contract for 2018 do you see as "Key Players" that we must keep?

Player Pos. 2017 Team 2018 Team Type Current APY ▾ Guarantees
Isaiah Crowell RB Browns   UFA $2,746,000 $0
Josh Gordon WR Browns   RFA $1,335,412 $3,727,638
Tank Carder ILB Browns   UFA $1,250,000 $300,000
Matt McCants RT Browns   UFA $855,000 $80,000
Marcus Martin LG Browns   UFA $767,313 $671,252
Jamie Meder 43DT Browns   RFA $615,000 $0
Chris Barker LG Browns   ERFA $540,000 $0
T.Y. McGill 43DT Browns   RFA $525,000 $0
Dan Vitale FB Browns   ERFA $495,000 $0
Kevin Hogan QB Browns   ERFA $495,000 $0
Austin Reiter C Browns   ERFA $495,000 $0
Kasen Williams WR Browns   ERFA $457,500 $0

I'll wait...

I never indicated that I was referring to 2018 free agents.  

Bottom line:  for the best interest of the team Kizer needs to sit.  He's earned it.

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7 hours ago, hoorta said:

Tour- you're about the only one left in Kamp Kizer. Even Zombo who was big on Deshone has backed off. The PD poll was 92% in favor of starting Hogan this week. Even Hue is thinking about it after he reviewed the tape. Physical tools don't mean squat if you can't utilize them when the lights come on. How many combine workout warriors turned into flat out busts in the NFL? 

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I'm seeing another Brandon Weeden\Derek Anderson in Deshone. Granted, he's more mobile than either. Can he improve? I sure hope so- but I have extreme doubts. & yeah, I know it's a small sample size in the pros. If you think I'm throwing him under the bus prematurely, go ahead. Even TCPO said he's probably never going to have top end accuracy- and that's a glaring, fatal flaw in my book. Almost all the top qbs are in the 65% completion category. Guess who checks in @ #10 this year so far? Hogan- with the same crappy receivers Kizer's been throwing to. 

Winning in the long term with Deshone at the wheel will help us win in the long term- when we go 2-14, and draft Darnold, Allen, or Rosen in 2018.  :lol::lol::lol:

Kizer is looking more and more like Geno Smith every game.

Keep Kizer in so the Browns can draft top 3 and nab a real NFL QB next April. The NFL game is about quickly processing defenses and hanging in the pocket to find the open guy. Bang - Bang plays that dont take all day. Sometimes you have the time to sit back there and wait for somebody to break free. Smarts and good decisions is how you win. Throwing the ball away to live another down or to punt or take the FG.

Kizer wants to run. You can see it. Today, Tarkenton would be busted up on the field waiting for the John Deere to come get him and haul  him off for xrays . Mike Vick was supposed to transform the game and we saw how he ended up.

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Ideally (with the benefit of hindsight), Hogan would've started last week against a relatively soft and forgiving Jets defense in Cleveland.  Hogan is going to get his 2nd start of his career AT Houston, and that doesn't sound like very much fun.  Yes, JJ Watt is out, but that doesn't mean the Texans' defense is any less potent.  They had two awful games against two RED HOT QB's in Alex Smith and Tom Brady, and that's nothing to be ashamed of if you ask me.  They shut down Mariota (and his backup), and they kept Andy Dalton out of the end zone (same guy who looked like Mr. Universe against us).  They also made life difficult for Bortles, who didn't have to do much because Houston started Savage who couldn't do a darn thing.  I say all of this because Hogan is going to have a difficult time against a Texans defense who prides itself on keeping the score low and terrorizing marginal QB's.  

Godspeed Mr. Hogan, you're not going into a pleasant scene this weekend.  Oh, for an added bonus, we get to see the QB we SHOULD'VE drafted.  So that's fun.  

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I really enjoyed the way Hogan played vs the Jets.

I thought Kizer would ride his preseason momentum into the regular season, but he has clearly regressed since week 1..  He can move the ball, but somehow turns it over almost every single time in the redzone..

Maybe Kizer will benefit from sitting a year, but with this upcoming draft, we might be looking at another QB(Which I think would be a bad mistake.. We need Barkley to complement Duke Johnson, and a solid WR if Gordon doesn't come back)

Hogan has looked good aside from 2 errant throws. He throws the ball with accuracy, he can move.

 

Might not have the strongest arm, but he can get it done..

I'd say stick with him for the long haul.. Dude is only 24, is 6'3", can pass, run, and make all his reads..

Imagine a healthy CC, Gordon, Saquon Barkley, Duke, Njoku, and DeValve all out there..
We would have a legitimate offense..

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14 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

So Hogan starts Sunday.

Yuppers, it's official. Wasn't exactly rocket science Hue, don't over think it. Time to ride this pony to see what he's got. Seasons already in the dumpster. Hogan plays well, Kizer sits a spell. He sucks or gets hurt, you bring back Kizer. If Deshone continues to stink, then you know you have to go Qb high in the 2018 draft. Win\win in my book. :)

Plus, no telling if Kevin has reached his ceiling yet. LoL, PO try to remain calm. Once upon a time, the Browns had this 17th round draft pick qb that turned into the league MVP. Wasn't exactly a cannon arm either.

& Tour- I'll just say this- I'm not expecting Hogan to be "The Savior" by any means. For all I know, you could be right and he's a newer edition of Charlie Frye. BUT- I got damn tired of seeing Kizer making stupid (OK, rookie) after stupid mistakes that were costing us games. Good for the team psyche too. How do you think the guys on our defense felt when we got in the Red Zone- we're gonna score this time, and TURNOVER. LIke oh s**t, here we go again? 

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At this point I'm all for Hogan starting. He gives the team a better chance at winning, and at this point I'm not sure what Kizer is getting out of playing so poorly.

But I'm confused by all this "Black Tarkenton" talk. How can Kizer hold the ball too long looking in vain for someone to be open, instead of throwing the ball away AND be someone who looks to run at the first sign of trouble?

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If the Browns had any qb even close to as good as Fran Tarkenton  playing for us in the last 20 years  the city would need a time out from jerking each other off. 

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On 10/10/2017 at 6:13 PM, Tour2ma said:

As a courtesy to a Noob, I split your post out of the pack...

The difference in ceilings seen is all due to physical tools. They give Kizer the higher ceiling... a much higher ceiling IMO. Right now Hogan has the higher floor.

As for Kizer being the future... I can't speak for everyone here, but more than a few of us that want to continue to see him start do not know if he will be our future. That is why we want to see him start... to see what he can become.

As for Hogan being the future. I see him as being as good as he will ever be... right now. We can add pieces and support him better and win a little more thus achieving mediocrity, but that's it. That's what I see.

If you want to compete a little better in the short-term, start Hogan. If you want to win in the long-term, you start Kizer. Only one of them has the talent, the capacity to forestall spending one or more #1's on a QB in the 2018 Draft.

Do you have any empirical evidence that he has better physical tools or are you just making things up again? Are there ANY stats from college that would indicate such? combine perhaps?
#fakenews

The pieces are there for him to be a good QB same as Hogan. Hogan's problem was his throwing motion was an complete mess. Kizers problem is his complete inconsistent ability his immature attitude and poor accuracy.

 

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4 hours ago, CaineDeSoulis said:

Do you have any empirical evidence that he has better physical tools or are you just making things up again? Are there ANY stats from college that would indicate such? combine perhaps?
#fakenews

The pieces are there for him to be a good QB same as Hogan. Hogan's problem was his throwing motion was an complete mess. Kizers problem is his complete inconsistent ability his immature attitude and poor accuracy.

Hue is enamored of QBs with big arms that can stretch the field. FLAW. Ahem- Hue "felt the earth move" when he saw RG III running around in a t-shirt and shorts with no pressure on him. I knew right then and there- that workout was less than worthless. Anyone notice- been thinking about this one- a more than casual similarity between Griffin and Kizer? I sure do.  You fit your offense to the talent on hand. The great coaches do- or are you just a "system" guy Hue trying to pound square pegs into round holes? 

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Browns will definitely win this weekend because the Indians lost horribly. 

 

 Kulber lost both starts this series... It's opposite week apparently. 

:(

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55 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Hue is enamored of QBs with big arms that can stretch the field. FLAW. Ahem- Hue "felt the earth move" when he saw RG III running around in a t-shirt and shorts with no pressure on him. I knew right then and there- that workout was less than worthless. Anyone notice- been thinking about this one- a more than casual similarity between Griffin and Kizer? I sure do.  You fit your offense to the talent on hand. The great coaches do- or are you just a "system" guy Hue trying to pound square pegs into round holes? 

NFL.com's Jeff Darlington reports Browns coach Hue Jackson came away extremely impressed with Colin Kaepernick following his free agent workout.

Per Darlington, Jackson told a group of Browns executives that it felt like Kaepernick "Was like a Greek God" after watching him "roll out in a full sprint to throw a pass ." Jackson reportedly called Kaepernick's accuracy in passing drills "heavenly," and was "astonished" in general. We don't doubt Colin is still a freak of nature in shorts and t-shirts, but it wasn't just personal animus that got him released in San Francisco.  Colin's natural gifts are rare in the history of football, but there's a lot standing between him and even resembling his elite younger form.

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17 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

At this point I'm all for Hogan starting. He gives the team a better chance at winning, and at this point I'm not sure what Kizer is getting out of playing so poorly.

But I'm confused by all this "Black Tarkenton" talk. How can Kizer hold the ball too long looking in vain for someone to be open, instead of throwing the ball away AND be someone who looks to run at the first sign of trouble?

Ghoolie double talk...  

10 hours ago, stillmotion said:

NFL.com's Jeff Darlington reports Browns coach Hue Jackson came away extremely impressed with Colin Kaepernick following his free agent workout.

Per Darlington, Jackson told a group of Browns executives that it felt like Kaepernick "Was like a Greek God" after watching him "roll out in a full sprint to throw a pass ." Jackson reportedly called Kaepernick's accuracy in passing drills "heavenly," and was "astonished" in general. We don't doubt Colin is still a freak of nature in shorts and t-shirts, but it wasn't just personal animus that got him released in San Francisco.  Colin's natural gifts are rare in the history of football, but there's a lot standing between him and even resembling his elite younger form.

Note to Sashi- tell Hue to cool it evaluating QBs,. first the earth moving, now Greek God? shove that evaluation up your a$$ Hue. I'll puke if the Browns sign this bum. 

EDIT: and what ya gonna do about Deshone Hue? He's all of a sudden not Greek Godly enough for ya? Same stupid crap as with Griffin. Beware of workouts with no live pass rush!!!

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kizer is the physically most gifted QB on the roster. PHYSICALLY. now between the ears he's #3. can't teach a pig how not to look like a pig.

i would trade a couple of bums on whatever side of the ball for brad kaaya from the panthers tomorrow.

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8 hours ago, hoorta said:

Ghoolie double talk...  

Note to Sashi- tell Hue to cool it evaluating QBs,. first the earth moving, now Greek God? shove that evaluation up your a$$ Hue. I'll puke if the Browns sign this bum. 

Note to Sashi, quit Pickin bums and making the coach work with them.

5 hours ago, miktoxic said:

kizer is the physically most gifted QB on the roster. PHYSICALLY. now between the ears he's #3. can't teach a pig how not to look like a pig.

i would trade a couple of bums on whatever side of the ball for brad kaaya from the panthers tomorrow.

Well if we are tradiing bums at least it looks like a fair trade.

 

WSS

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7 hours ago, miktoxic said:

kizer is the physically most gifted QB on the roster. PHYSICALLY. now between the ears he's #3. can't teach a pig how not to look like a pig.

i would trade a couple of bums on whatever side of the ball for brad kaaya from the panthers tomorrow.

Mik, don't know about Kaaya- haven't seen enough of him to make a judgement.

But you nailed the first part. There's smart (which Deshone is) and then there's football smart, which he isn't.

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12 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

Browns will definitely win this weekend because the Indians lost horribly. 

 

 Kulber lost both starts this series... It's opposite week apparently. 

:(

Technically one was a no-decision. 

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On 10/10/2017 at 9:37 PM, hoorta said:

Tour- you're about the only one left in Kamp Kizer. Even Zombo who was big on Deshone has backed off. The PD poll was 92% in favor of starting Hogan this week. Even Hue is thinking about it after he reviewed the tape. Physical tools don't mean squat if you can't utilize them when the lights come on. How many combine workout warriors turned into flat out busts in the NFL? 

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I'm seeing another Brandon Weeden\Derek Anderson in Deshone. Granted, he's more mobile than either. Can he improve? I sure hope so- but I have extreme doubts. & yeah, I know it's a small sample size in the pros. If you think I'm throwing him under the bus prematurely, go ahead. Even TCPO said he's probably never going to have top end accuracy- and that's a glaring, fatal flaw in my book. Almost all the top qbs are in the 65% completion category. Guess who checks in @ #10 this year so far? Hogan- with the same crappy receivers Kizer's been throwing to. 

Winning in the long term with Deshone at the wheel will help us win in the long term- when we go 2-14, and draft Darnold, Allen, or Rosen in 2018.  :lol::lol::lol:

Even were I alone, which I am not, that wouldn't sway me, h. I'm used to it.

Deshone wasn't a "workout warrior". "The lights' don't matter... and aren't a factor... it's the light bulb in a QB's head that matters. It's not on inside Kizer... yet. It may never come one, but where he is now... the only way it can come on is thru playing. And 92% of the at 92% is willing to do anything to not lose now. They are simply "fans" tired of losing as are most here. All they know is they are tired of losing. That is the extent of their analysis. They love "the backup". Awesome...

I don't think you're prematurely doing anything. To say that I'd have to believe you'd studied Kizer first five games. I don't... if you had, then you might see he's nothing like either Wheezy or DA. TCPO's take may be correct. Any QB who is going to go deep often is never going to have "top accuracy". And Hue asks his QBs to go deep... often.

If we sacrifice knowledge of Kizer for 2 wins, then we are too stupid to deserve to win. But at least our fan base will be happy... until we fall short of even two wins...

 

 

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On 10/11/2017 at 12:05 AM, Suomi said:

I never indicated that I was referring to 2018 free agents.  

Bottom line:  for the best interest of the team Kizer needs to sit.  He's earned it.

So beyond 2018... based on our  2017 record... not our 2018... al-righty then...

When you are in a hole... stop digging...

On 10/11/2017 at 10:22 AM, domcucch1994 said:

I really enjoyed the way Hogan played vs the Jets. I thought Kizer would ride his preseason momentum into the regular season, but he has clearly regressed since week 1..  He can move the ball, but somehow turns it over almost every single time in the redzone..

Maybe Kizer will benefit from sitting a year, but with this upcoming draft, we might be looking at another QB(Which I think would be a bad mistake.. We need Barkley to complement Duke Johnson, and a solid WR if Gordon doesn't come back). Hogan has looked good aside from 2 errant throws. He throws the ball with accuracy, he can move.

Might not have the strongest arm, but he can get it done.. I'd say stick with him for the long haul.. Dude is only 24, is 6'3", can pass, run, and make all his reads..

Imagine a healthy CC, Gordon, Saquon Barkley, Duke, Njoku, and DeValve all out there.. We would have a legitimate offense..

So Hogan is your franchise?

On 10/11/2017 at 11:08 AM, hoorta said:

Tour- I'll just say this- I'm not expecting Hogan to be "The Savior" by any means. For all I know, you could be right and he's a newer edition of Charlie Frye. BUT- I got damn tired of seeing Kizer making stupid (OK, rookie) after stupid mistakes that were costing us games.

Thanks for sharing your analysis...

23 hours ago, CaineDeSoulis said:

Do you have any empirical evidence that he has better physical tools or are you just making things up again? Are there ANY stats from college that would indicate such? combine perhaps? #fakenews

The pieces are there for him to be a good QB same as Hogan. Hogan's problem was his throwing motion was an complete mess. Kizers problem is his complete inconsistent ability his immature attitude and poor accuracy.

Again? And when was the prior time(s)?

"Stats" are not the measure of physical tools, but since you want some...

    Passing
Year School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate
Career Notre Dame         422 695 60.7 5805 8.4 8.5 47 19 147.7
*2015 Notre Dame Ind SO QB 13 210 334 62.9 2880 8.6 8.5 21 10 150.1
2016 Notre Dame Ind JR QB 12 212 361 58.7 2925 8.1 8.4 26 9 145.6

And here are Hogan's...

    Passing
Year School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate
Career Stanford         727 1103 65.9 9385 8.5 8.7 75 29 154.6
*2012 Stanford Pac-12 FR QB 10 109 152 71.7 1096 7.2 7.5 9 3 147.9
*2013 Stanford Pac-12 SO QB 14 180 295 61.0 2630 8.9 8.7 20 10 151.5
*2014 Stanford Pac-12 JR QB 13 232 352 65.9 2792 7.9 8.0 19 8 145.8
*2015 Stanford Pac-12 SR QB 14 206 304 67.8 2867 9.4 10.0 27 8 171.0

 

If you think Hogan's physical tools are in the same areas code as Kizer, then you are blind. Hogan's arm talent makes Hoyer look strong-armed.

5 hours ago, wargograw said:

Technically one was a no-decision. 

IN a game we won... so there's that...

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Tour, I don't know what that was trying to prove?

It looks like Hogan was consistent and solid, threw few picks and threw for more TDs.

I even notice that Hogan had 2 seasons where he played in 14 games.

It also appears that Kizer can't even touch Hogan's senior year Y/A. Also his 171.0 Rate is astronomical compared to Kizers.

What about these numbers screams, "Kizer has the "Physical tools" in spades over Hogan" to you?

 

Maybe Kizer needs to do his best Terrel Pryor impersonation... oh wait, he's not even fast.

 
     
 
                     
 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
               

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4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Even were I alone, which I am not, that wouldn't sway me, h. I'm used to it.

Deshone wasn't a "workout warrior". "The lights' don't matter... and aren't a factor... it's the light bulb in a QB's head that matters. It's not on inside Kizer... yet. It may never come one, but where he is now... the only way it can come on is thru playing. And 92% of the at 92% is willing to do anything to not lose now. They are simply "fans" tired of losing as are most here. All they know is they are tired of losing. That is the extent of their analysis. They love "the backup". Awesome...

I don't think you're prematurely doing anything. To say that I'd have to believe you'd studied Kizer first five games. I don't... if you had, then you might see he's nothing like either Wheezy or DA. TCPO's take may be correct. Any QB who is going to go deep often is never going to have "top accuracy". And Hue asks his QBs to go deep... often.

If we sacrifice knowledge of Kizer for 2 wins, then we are too stupid to deserve to win. But at least our fan base will be happy... until we fall short of even two wins...

That's when Kizer comes to the rescue with his 49 QBR. :lol: He needs to improve 50% to catch the next worst (Flacco). He's so far down in a crater, he'd need a rocket boost to even see daylight. Baby steps? I want to see some semblance he's even mediocre. Like get the ball out on time, and limit the dumb turnovers to one a game. If we go 2-14 with either Hogan or Kizer- means we're drafting a QB high 2018. If Wentz is succeeding with a dumbed down playbook, then I guess Hue is pretty dumb for not doing the same with his prized rookie. 

You're right about Wheezy or DA,  how about RG III instead? And Kizer isn't getting 3 years to prove he sucks either. 

So think Hogan is a lame arm Connor Shaw? Well, his jugs gun at the combine was 53 mph. (FWIW, Prescott was 54) Watson's was supposedly 49 mph. Hasn't seemed to hurt them much yet. 

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4 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Tour, I don't know what that was trying to prove?

It looks like Hogan was consistent and solid, threw few picks and threw for more TDs.

I even notice that Hogan had 2 seasons where he played in 14 games.

It also appears that Kizer can't even touch Hogan's senior year Y/A. Also his 171.0 Rate is astronomical compared to Kizers.

What about these numbers screams, "Kizer has the "Physical tools" in spades over Hogan" to you?


Maybe Kizer needs to do his best Terrel Pryor impersonation... oh wait, he's not even fast.

What did you fall asleep on the space bar of ur keyboard? Geez. EDIT: fixed by us Mods.  :)  

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50 minutes ago, hoorta said:

That's when Kizer comes to the rescue with his 49 QBR. :lol: He needs to improve 50% to catch the next worst (Flacco). He's so far down in a crater, he'd need a rocket boost to even see daylight. Baby steps? I want to see some semblance he's even mediocre. Like get the ball out on time, and limit the dumb turnovers to one a game. If we go 2-14 with either Hogan or Kizer- means we're drafting a QB high 2018. If Wentz is succeeding with a dumbed down playbook, then I guess Hue is pretty dumb for not doing the same with his prized rookie. 

You're right about Wheezy or DA,  how about RG III instead? And Kizer isn't getting 3 years to prove he sucks either. 

So think Hogan is a lame arm Connor Shaw? Well, his jugs gun at the combine was 53 mph. (FWIW, Prescott was 54) Watson's was supposedly 49 mph. Hasn't seemed to hurt them much yet. 

Whew! 53 Miles per hour? That's a hefty ticket in a school zone. :) 

 

Found this article on arm strength and MPH of passes. It was informational to say the least... with a few surprises. Colt McCoy's got a cannon for an arm apparently. Hmm, who knew? ;)

 

Here's the link in case you wanted to swing by and check it out for yourself. http://pass2win.com/ball-velocity-exposing-the-power-qb.html

 

1451785796.jpg

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
BALL VELOCITY: Exposing the Power Quarterback
*updated list here
by John Cooney
*Article update 4/6/2017

There is not a more exciting offensive play in football than a deep aerial strike launched by a quarterback with a high-caliber arm to a speedy wideout. Crowds at games, practices and even workouts oh-n-ah with anticipation whenever a passer hits the 7-step drop back, loads up and fires away. And why not! Other than a kick or punt return the “bomb” is the quickest way for a team to eat up huge chunks of yardage and strike up a quick-six points in the process of a game. A powerful passing arm gets attention and pro organizations salivate every year at the NFL Combine when the guys with the “big” guns take snaps. A quarterback builds a reputation for being a strong-armed passer early in his development. Football scouts will label a passer as a power-passer or weak-armed after viewing hours of game cut-ups and often via first-hand eyewitness experience, sitting in the stands and studying the athletes. Many of those labels are confirmed during the talent evaluation events, such as the NFL Combine or during the many Pro-Days that are held around the country. Ah, but it is in those staged testing grounds that some reputations of the rifle-armed are questioned while some of the reputed pop-gun passers surprise. During the Combine one of the “measures” performed on quarterbacks is Ball Velocity. Passers, like baseball pitchers, are scanned by radar guns to get a gauge of how fast they actually can throw a football. Ball velocity on its own as an important test result carries some weight among the pro personnel evaluators, but how hard a QB can toss the rock isn’t a priority. When talking about the make-up of players’ skills most football fans can recite the 40-yard dash times, the bench press reps and even some of the cone-drill results. Yet ball velocity, a seemingly very attractive fact for football addicts gets little attention; even reporters, player agents and others associated with the quarterbacks tend to allow the actual measure slip into the shadows. Well, PASS turns a spotlight on Ball Velocity and exposes which quarterbacks really own cannon arms and, even more interesting, which passers may be carrying the “weak-arm” stamp undeservedly.  

Being able to generate the pro-level ball velocity is derived from a combining of various factors. Footwork, shoulder position, or “squaring” and point of release are as important to getting the most power out of every throw as natural arm-strength, hand-size and physical make-up. Quarterbacking successfully at the pro level requires proper coaching, scheme fit and a talented supporting cast. But there is also a science to power generation of the old pigskin. Dr. John Eric Goff, Professor of Physics at Lynchburg College and author of Gold Medal Physics: The Science of Sports, notes that the angle of the arm during delivery is key. "A more sidearm delivery certainly puts the ball's release point lower than a typical NFL quarterback. That bothers coaches because of the possibility of getting the ball knocked down." Dr. Goff goes on, "It's also interesting that the ball relies a little more on the fingers for launch speed, compared to a more overhand throwing motion that gets more of the palm involved." Breaking down the perils of a three-quarter side-arm delivery in detail, Dr. Goff finds "Sidearm deliveries cause a little more precession in the spin axis because that axis is usually a little more away from the launch velocity compared to an overhand throw which leads to a little more air resistance for a sidearm throw compared to an overhand throw. Lower release points also require slightly greater launch angles for long throws. A greater launch angle means a longer time of flight, which might give corners a little more time to get to the ball." Expanding on the scientific explanation of attaining optimum ball velocity, Dr. Goff said, "Just as a simple example, say that a quarterback wants to throw a bomb, nearly 60 yards. The quarterback releases the ball at 50 mph with a release angle of 45 degrees, and the ball is caught at the same height at which it was thrown. The ball goes nearly 56 yards down the field in about 3.22 seconds if we ignore air resistance. A well-thrown spiral doesn't have too much air resistance, so those numbers don't change much when including the air. If you drop the arm a foot like in a sidearm throw such as (Tim) Tebow's, the range is just a tad over 49 yards and the time of flight is about 3.3 seconds. The conclusion of something like a 12 percent reduction in bomb distance is the new result, as long as one assumes the release speed has dropped 5 percent and the release angle has increased five degrees." Dr. Goff concluded, "The time of flight is just under a tenth of a second longer, which might be enough for a corner to close a little gap that he couldn't otherwise close." So not only is pure physical strength a requirement for power passing, but hand-size and point-of-release goes a long way in generating top-end football speed.

Perceptions, Misconceptions and setting the Record Straight

Over the years we’ve marveled at the power quarterbacks generate throwing the football. Some turned that arm-strength into championship results while others experienced sporadic moments in the spot-light. Past power-passers such as John Elway, Brett Favre, Jeff George, Drew Bledsoe, Randall Cunningham, Vinny Testaverde, Jim Kelly, Sonny Jurgensen and Daryle Lamonica all dazzled fans through the years with highlight rainbow trajectories deep down field for touchdowns and fastball strikes into seemingly invisible seams through defensive secondaries. Others, like Kyle Boller and Jamarcus Russell, never could harness their arm-power to make it work for them. When examining and breaking down the glorious power-passers of the past we had to rely on the “eye test” to confirm their reputations of possessing strong throwing arms. Today we still use “game tape” to gauge a quarterback’s ability to generate “heat”, but now we can confirm what the eye sees by measuring ball velocity with a JUGGS gun, or other speed-reading radar devices. In an article posted on Livestrong.com (Maximum Speed of a Football, October 21, 2013 by Rogue Parrish) the speed at which past quarterbacks could spin the football was “largely anecdotal but indicate that the greatest quarterbacks had exceptional throwing speed.” Mr. Parrish noted that Packer gunner Brett Favre was estimated at 63 mph. Now retired passing star and Hall-of-Famer-to-be Peyton Manning (pre-neck injury) could hit 59 on shorter throws. Saints’ QB Drew Brees was clocked at 52 MPH in a “Sports Science” segment for ESPN. According to some, including former Bronco wideout Rod Smith, John Elway brought the greatest velocity to the field. It is said Elway ripped it consistently in the 60-plus MPH. “They used to set the Jugs machines at 70 to 80 mph for us receivers to simulate John’s throws,” recalls Elway’s former top pass catcher.

Here is a look at the results of NFL Combine velocity reads from 2008 to 2017. In some cases the perceived is reaffirmed, but a few surprising speed readings are popped by passers who just may have been mislabeled by more than a few football writers and profiling bloggers failing to pay attention. The list consists of quarterbacks currently on rosters or actively seeking pro employment, their college, current team (if on a roster) and their Ball Velocity. Have fun with the comparisons.

The following QB MPH results are according to OUR LADS' NFL SCOUTING SERVICES, as featured in "Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2017" Posted on March 16, 2017 by Dan Shonka. 
Ourlads’ Guide to the NFL Draft is the only source that gives the number for the quarterback’s velocity at the NFL Combine. Velocity is measured by a radar gun in miles per hour.


Name, College, NFL Team – Ball Velocity in MPH
Logan Thomas, Virginia Tech, Bills (TE) - 60
Bryan Bennet, SE Louisiana, free agent - 60
Pat Mahomes, Texas Tech, TBD - 60

Davis Webb, California, TBD - 59
Brandon Weeden, Oklahoma State, Texans– 59
Colin Kaepernick, Nevada, free agent- 59
Kirk Cousins, Michigan State, Redskins - 59
Zac Dysert, Miami (OH), Cardinals- 59
Tyler Bray, Tennessee, Chiefs - 59
Stephen Morris, Miami, Colts - 59
Paxton Lynch, Memphis, Broncos - 59

Jared Goff, California, Rams - 58
Ryan Mallett, Arkansas, Ravens- 58
Austin Davis, Southern Mississippi, free agent- 58

Carson Wentz, North Dakota State, Eagles - 57
Nick Foles, Arizona, Eagles - 57
Mark Sanchez, USC, Bears- 57
Josh Freeman, Kansas State, Free Agent - 57
Chase Daniels, Missouri, Saints - 57
Chandler Harnish, Northern Illinois, free agent- 57
Tom Savage, Pittsburgh, Texans - 57
Sean Mannion, Oregon State, Rams - 57
Brandon Bridge, South Alabama, free agent - 57

DeShon Kizer, Notre Dame, TBD - 56
Andy Dalton, TCU, Bengals - 56
Cam Newton, Auburn, Panthers - 56
Colt McCoy, Texas, Redskins- 56 (recorded in a private workout with a radar gun & computer chip in the football)
Ryan Nassib, Syracuse, free agent– 56
Curtis Painter, Purdue, free agent- 56
Brad Sorensen, Southern Utah, free agent - 56
Patrick Devlin, Delaware, free agent- 56
Josh Woodrum, Liberty, Bills - 56
Blake Bortles, Central Florida, Jaguars - 56
Jimmy Garoppolo, Eastern Illinois, Patriots - 56
Marcus Mariota, Oregon, Titans - 56
Jacoby Brissett, North Carolina State, Patriots - 56
Jeff Mathews, Cornell, free agent - 56
Keith Wenning, Ball State, Giants - 56
Joel Stave, Wisconsin, Chiefs - 56
Christian Hackenberg, Penn State, Jets - 56
Anthony Boone, Duke, free agent - 56

Mitchell Trubisky, North Carolina, TBD - 55
Jerod Evans, Virginia Tech, TBD - 55
Trevor Knight, Texan A&M, TBD - 55
Jameis Winston, Florida State, Buccaneers - 55
Joe Flacco, Delaware, Ravens - 55
Geno Smith, West Virginia, Giants- 55
CJ Beathard, Iowa, TBD - 55
Trevon Boykin, TCU, Seahawks - 55
Russell Wilson, Wisconsin, Seahawks - 55
Brandon Allen, Arkansas, Jaguars - 55
Cody Kessler, USC, Browns - 55
Cody Fajardo, Nevada, free agent - 55
Jordan Lynch, Northern Illinois, free agent - 55
Casey Keenum, Houston, Vikings - 55
Tyler Wilson, Arkansas, free agent - 55
Scott Tolzien, Wisconsin, Colts - 55

Dak Prescott, Mississippi State, Cowboys - 54
Tajh Boyd, Clemson, free agent - 54
Bryn Renner, North Carolina, free agent - 54
Nate Sudfeld, Indiana, Redskins - 54
Jake Locker, Washington, free agent- 54
EJ Manuel, Florida State, Raiders - 54
Matthew Scott, Arizona, free agent - 54

Nathan Peterman, Pittsburgh, TBD - 53
Brad Kaaya, Miami, TBD - 53

David Fales, San Jose State, Dolphins - 53
AJ McCarron, Alabama, Bengals - 53
Brett Hundley, UCLA, Packers - 53
Kevin Hogan, Stanford, Browns - 53
Brandon Doughty, Western Kentucky, Dolphins - 53
Vernon Adams, Oregon, free agent - 53
Mitch Leidner, Minnesota, TBD - 53
Bryce Petty, Baylor, Jets - 53
Dustin Vaughan, West Texas A&M, Ravens - 53
Landry Jones, Oklahoma, Steelers - 53
Chad Henne, Michigan, Jaguars - 53
Stephen McGee, Texas A & M - 53

Shane Carden, Eastern Carolina, free agent, 52
Jeff Driskel, Louisiana Tech, Bengals - 52
Seth Russell, Baylor, TBD - 52
Graham Harrell, Texas Tech, free agent - 52
Pat White, West Virginia, free agent - 52
Kellen Moore, Boise State, Cowboys - 52
TJ Yates, North Carolina, free agent - 52
Michael Kafka, Northwestern, free agent - 52
Zac Robinson, Oklahoma St., free agent - 52
Ryan Lindley, San Diego State, free agent - 52

Josh Dobbs, Tennessee, TBD -51
Jerry Lovelocke, Praire View A&M, free agent - 51
Christian Ponder, Florida St, free agent - 51
Colby Cameron, Louisiana Tech, free agent - 51

Matt Flynn, LSU, free agent -- 50
John Skelton, Fordham, free agent - 50
Ricky Stanzi, Iowa, free agent - 50
Tyrod Taylor, Va Tech, Bills- 50
Connor Cook, Michigan, Raiders - 50
Connor Shaw, South Carolina, Bears - 50
Nick Marshall, Auburn, Bengals - 50

Deshaun Watson, Clemson, TBD - 49
Michael Glennon, North Carolina State, Bears - 49
Josh Johnson, San Diego, Giants - 49
Sefo Liufau, Colorado, TBD - 46
Cooper Rush, Central Michigan, TBD - 46
Blake Sims, Alabama, free agent - 42 

DID NOT THROW:
Matt Ryan, Boston College, Falcons - Did not throw
Robert Griffin III, Baylor, Browns- Did not throw
Andrew Luck, Stanford, Colts - Did not throw
Sam Bradford, Oklahoma, Vikings- Did not throw
Matt Stafford, Georgia, Lions - Did not throw
Ryan Tannehill, Texas A&M, Dolphins - Did not throw
Brock Osweiler, Arizona State, Browns- Did not throw
Tim Tebow, Florida, Free Agent - Did not throw
Sean Renfree, Duke, Buccaneers – Did not throw
Matt Barkley, Southern Ca, 49ers - Did not throw
Greg McElroy, Alabama, free agent - Did not throw
Blaine Gabbert, Missouri, free agent- Did not throw
Teddy Twatwater, Louisville, Vikings – Did not throw
Derek Carr, Fresno State, Raiders – Did not throw
Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M, free agent – Did not throw
Zach Mettenberger, LSU, Steelers – Did not throw
Aaron Murray, Georgia, Rams – Did not throw
Garrett Grayson, Colorado State, Saints - Did not throw
Connor Halliday, Washington State, free agent - Did not throw
Cardale Jones, Ohio State, Bills - Did not throw

It is not surprising that Brandon Weeden, Colin Kaepernick and Kirk Cousins rank among the top throwers in this study as all three came to the NFL with the rep of being able to muscle a throw with the best of them. As a bit of a head-scratcher, the Bears' Mike Glennon, a 2013 rookie surprise, logged in with a low 49 MPH mark. Coming out of the collegiate ranks Glennon was usually labeled a “power” passer with a check-down mentality. If we are to believe in the results of NFL’s Combine ball velocity measuring process, Glennon’s check down tendencies are more indicative of him understanding his own limitations and playing within his physical abilities. Plain and simple, Glennon isn’t a strong-armed thrower. In a reverse view is Nick Foles of Philadelphia. While Foles displayed power passer traits at the University of Arizona, 2013 marked a breakout for Foles. In the early pro-n-cons famously bandied-about by local and national football reporters Foles was compared and contrasted to lightning lefty QB Michael Vick. Many predicted a big drop-off in big-play opportunities with Foles taking snaps; arm-strength was one of the inaccurate concerns. However, Eagle head coach Chip Kelly shared none of those concerns with outsiders. Turns out Coach Kelly knew what he had in Foles and understood that Foles could bring the heat well-enough, which he did. The Eagles led the NFL in pass plays of twenty or more yards in 2013 with Foles directing a potent offense. Yes, scheme mattered greatly, but Foles’s ability to get it there in a hurry keyed the Eagle explosive scoring. Kirk Cousins has learned to harness his power-packed right arm and is now one of the NFL's top passers heading into 2017. Cousins uses his top-shelf velocity to thread the needle under 20 yards; he is in the process of sharpening his deep ball accuracy however. 

There are quite a few interesting comparisons in the ball velocity results. Joe Flacco is said to possess the NFL’s strongest throwing arm (NFL Films QB-master Ron Jaworski has been quoted as such) and while he does rank among the top of the list there are 21 other quarterbacks that fired off higher MPHs than the Ravens’ passer during the various Combines. Cincinnati’s Andy Dalton (56 MPH) is repeatedly referred to as “noodle-armed” yet in measured velocity the maligned Bengal passer lines-up side-by-side with noted football slingers Cam Newton (56), Flacco (55) and Russell Wilson (55). Redskins backup Colt McCoy also falls into the misdiagnosis of a soft-tosser. McCoy hit 56 in a variation test, using a chip in a football rather than the usual radar gun method. Where Dalton, McCoy and others like them may come into question is their ability to muscle-up a pass deep downfield. Both passers have heaved their fair share of wobblers when the football travels 30-plus yards and while the in-flight beauty may be absent, the landing is still often getting to the mark; Dalton more-so than McCoy. Former Rams’ and Cardinals’ great Kurt Warner didn’t spin the prettiest ball, but learned to optimize his mechanics,  utilized keen anticipation and possessing enough juice in his right arm to strike accurately and from practically anywhere on the gridiron. Jets’ 2013 freshman Geno Smith gets off a pass with the same velocity as Flacco and Seattle’s Russell Wilson, but he entered the NFL severely scrutinized about his true throwing power. About a third of Smith’s pass attempts at West Virginia in 2012 were at or behind the line of scrimmage; scheme or deficiency? We can answer that one with confidence thanks to knowing Smith’s radar readings at the Combine; 55 MPH puts Smith in the Flacco, Wilson, Newton, Dalton group. Even in the short passing schemes like the West Coast Offense or the rapid-fire Pistol attack, arm-strength is a plus. Passers need to “stick it” through the slightest of seams and openings in the pro game; a strong arm helps get it there.

There are more than a few throwing talents that did not participate in the velocity logging process at the Combine, for a variety of reasons. Some were unable due to injuries while others eschewed the testing to avoid confirmation of game tape observations leading to weak-armed labels. Yet others were advised not to throw at the Combine due to a lack familiarity with the receivers on hand; lack of chemistry often leads to poor performances and perceptions. Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III were non-participants for this very reason. Way back in 1983 John Elway refused to throw at the Combine, mostly because he had a bad knee and didn’t want the pro personnel eyes to notice. There was obviously no doubt about Elway’s ability to rip it and his draft stock never dipped. San Francisco's reserve QB Matt Barkley did not give it a go at the Combine, blaming a shoulder injury. However, Barkley’s arm strength was already being questioned and going out to confirm the perception would have been a draft day killer for the highly touted former USC QB. The questions remain as his on-field work reveals floating passes to the outside and lack of zip in tight windows.

Scheme matters in the success of a QB’s development as much as arm talent. Sound coaching that coincides with the passer’s particular skill set goes a long way in transitioning a mostly raw college passer to a seasoned pro. However neither scheme nor coaching can increase a passer’s true arm strength. Yes, coaching and learning proper mechanics can optimize the power a QB possesses, but the natural power a quarterback can generate is what it is. Fantasy footballers can benefit greatly in the long run by knowing exactly which quarterbacks are true power players and which ones are truly soft-ballers. If the arm fits the scheme, especially aggressive down-field playbooks, then the chances of gaining solid fantasy production are high. A late career Peyton Manning in a Bruce Arians type passing offense would not have produced the all-world numbers Manning experienced in 2013. Manning was terrific and would find ways to thrive in any format, but he’d surely struggle at times in a down-field focused attack. On the flip-side, Carson Palmer, whose vision and style is geared beyond the 0-9 yard range, could not produce close to the record numbers of Manning in the Denver frenetic, timing based short game. Again, understanding the true arm quality of a quarterback and the velocity a passer can muster help fanballers make sharp, educated choices at the QB position come draft day or game day.

At the 2017 NFL Combine QBs were "gunned" for velocity throwing for speed and to both sides of the field, left and right. Overall, the MPHs of 2017 are nothing less than [previous recorded speeds, and a couple of the 2017 passing prospects impress. Many view the 2017 crop of QBs as an underwhelming lot, and the disappointing ball velocity numbers turned in by some (Deshaun Watson?) may have verified a portion of those negative opinions of this draft class. I am a tad suspicious about the mushy MPH results however. On tape, most of these pro QB prospects show plenty of arm and zip. Deshaun Watson's 49 MPH would be among the lowest velocity efforts recorded since 2008 (Blake Sims owns that dubious mark at 42). IN live action Watson is clearly NOT a soft-tossing passer. Pitt's Nathan Peterman shows he can drive the football far above his "official" 53 MPH, able to make all the pro throws required. Hurricane QB Brad Kaaya isn't a power passer, but his 53 MPH just doesn't match the eye test in his game cut-ups, which shows him to possess more pop on his passes. Top 2017 QB prospect Mitchell Trubisky throws with accuracy and vigor from the pocket or on the move in his game film and the NFL Combine official manning the "gun" got a pretty accurate 55 MPH from the North Carolina QB. Baylor's Seth Russell logged a 52, but he can spin a "faster" ball from what I see on tape. For 2017 at least, football fans and fantasy football talent diggers would be wise to consider the QB velocity results from the Combine with a bit of skepticism. This may not be the most polished group of collegiate throwers entering the draft, but there's more arm talent here than popular "expert" opinion suggests. 
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-lol sorry Mik.

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6 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Tour, I don't know what that was trying to prove?

It looks like Hogan was consistent and solid, threw few picks and threw for more TDs.

I even notice that Hogan had 2 seasons where he played in 14 games.

It also appears that Kizer can't even touch Hogan's senior year Y/A. Also his 171.0 Rate is astronomical compared to Kizers.

What about these numbers screams, "Kizer has the "Physical tools" in spades over Hogan" to you?

In answer to your question, Po... not a single thing. You can't judge physical tools using stats. But if you look, then you'll note the person I was responding to was trying to use stats for that. OK?

Now about the stats... they're comparable. That's all that can be said. The outlier in the entire set is Hogna's Sr. season... a season Kizer never posted. Scan Kizer's 2 years and Hogan's first three and there's not much to choose from. Completion percentages... TD/INT ratios... YPA... all essentially the same.

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