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jcam222

Hogans Heroes

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Yup, Kizer is in a tailspin. With 11 games left, give the next 6 or so to Hogan unless he falls apart the way Hoyer did after getting everyone’s hopes up. After six weeks if Kevin looks like the guy, keep rolling him, if not see if Deshone has come around.  best case scenario the Browns would shock the world to win 3 games, so we’re in for another long season regardless of who hue decides to play. 

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Kizer needs to sit and Hogan needs to start as the true #1 QB.  The concern over Kizer's psyche is irrelevant.  It's obvious that Hogan gives the Browns a much better chance to score points.  At this point I'm worried a lot more about the psyche of the team if Kizer continues to play.  Players play to win - and the current history of losing needs to be stopped.  Otherwise many of the most talented Browns players will walk when they hit free agency and sign with teams that they perceive will actually be competitive - leaving the Browns to plug the holes with rookie draft picks and waiver wire acquisitions.  Rinse, repeat.

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2 hours ago, Suomi said:

Kizer needs to sit and Hogan needs to start as the true #1 QB.  The concern over Kizer's psyche is irrelevant.  It's obvious that Hogan gives the Browns a much better chance to score points.  At this point I'm worried a lot more about the psyche of the team if Kizer continues to play.  Players play to win - and the current history of losing needs to be stopped.  Otherwise many of the most talented Browns players will walk when they hit free agency and sign with teams that they perceive will actually be competitive - leaving the Browns to plug the holes with rookie draft picks and waiver wire acquisitions.  Rinse, repeat.

This needs repeating. ^^^^ Hue said as much during preseason- did he change his mind? He shot his rep as a QB whisperer with RG III and Kessler. 

All the other rookie QBs sat for a spell. It's SO obvious Kizer needs to do the same. You think vets like Kirksey don't realize Kizer is stinking up the place? 

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This quote from the article is a bit contradictory, "Like I said, my decision is what's best for the team. What's best for our team to put us in position to win? Also, what's best for DeShone? It's not just for the team, but what's best for him just so that he can feel like, 'OK, I am moving further along in this process and I'm understanding what I need to do to be better.' All of that will go into my decision"

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On 10/8/2017 at 9:20 PM, jcam222 said:

Straight and to the point I think PoeticG has this one right. Hogan is light years ahead of Kizer. I've resisted it,  argued against it and made excuses. The fact is though the second he takes the field it's like an entirely different offense. He gets the ball out fast, throws a beautiful accurate catchable ball AND is a dual threat. There is no reason at all to start Kizer next week. PoG has fallen in love with some losers more than once but I have think he has this right. 

He nailed Derek Carr too.

Hogan has the "it" quality. He also has limitations, inexperience and propensity for untimely mistakes.

But that's a lot better than the guy who's starting now. If we truly want to win games right now, then Hogan is the guy.

Z

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On 10/8/2017 at 9:29 PM, Mudfly said:

and he was just a rookie last year....technically, Kizer has more game experience than Hogan now....or very close to it...and we can see how good Kessler and Hogan looked as rookies, compared to Kizer as a rookie....they were both MUCH better....much much better...

much.....(lots).....notably better....notable.....offense moving...points.....etc

Except neither tried to play the way Hue wanted them to play. Why do you think that is? Might it have something to do with who has been starting?

On 10/8/2017 at 10:33 PM, beare said:

We need throw a boat load of money at free agent qbs next year!!!!!

To lure which QB out of retirement? Difler? Delhomme? Garcia?

Been there... done that...

On 10/9/2017 at 12:16 AM, hoorta said:

I'm beginning to have serious doubts about Kizer being our QBOTF,  he sure as hell isn't the QB of the present. My anti Notre Dame bias aside, I'm seeing the same crap out of Deshone I saw in college. 

Sorry Woody- you going to sacrifice any shred of hope winning a game just to develop one player? I don't care what Sashi says- Hue's playing for his job at this point. 1-20, and counting. FYI, at this rate, we can pass the '70s Tampa Bay Yuckaneers record of futility over two seasons. Historically awful. MHO is Jackson's coaching career is as sunk as the Titanic if he keeps playing Deshone. 

You'd have to be blind to not see Hogan has clearly outplayed Kizer to this point. 

In reverse order: No one is blind. No, he's not. Yes, I do. Watch some 2015 ND tape and get back to me. No he isn't, but he could be the QB of the future.

On 10/9/2017 at 7:58 AM, boo fagley said:

Kizer is a reactionary passer. Kizer waits for his WRs to break open and then throws the ball. By then its usually too late because the DBs are so fast and react to the ball in the air. Thats why he is sacked and throwing INTs like I change socks. Kizer is playing sand lot ball like back in college where you just make stuff happen on the fly. He is more comfortable off script.

Hogan is an anticipatory passer. Hogan has the ball away before the WR completes his route. Timing plays that avoid sacks. Hogan would rather stay on script.

May I borrow your All-22 log in info? You must have one and spend hours using it to come up with this evaluation.

On 10/9/2017 at 9:08 AM, Mudfly said:

Honestly, Im not sure why so many people are certain that Hogan isnt the answer.....

What is it about Hogan that says he cant be a better QB than Kizer??.....the arm?.....cause we all know strong arms do not a QB make....

Because we know the question?

You are correct that a strong arm does not make up for a complete lack of QB ability, but since it is not something that can be taught there will always be a fascination with strong-armed QBs.

Go around the league now and see the number that are starting with "average arms"... and competing for a playoff spot, let alone contending for a SB.

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On 10/9/2017 at 7:31 AM, thomam3 said:

Can someone please explain to me this ceiling that only Kizer has? Why are lots so certain he is our future? I just don't see it. Why can't Hogan be the future?

Both times we hit the red zone early with Kizer I just expected something to go wrong. As soon as I saw Hogan get in the game I expected to march down the field and score. I was right. Am I the only one that gets these feelings? ;)

As a courtesy to a Noob, I split your post out of the pack...

The difference in ceilings seen is all due to physical tools. They give Kizer the higher ceiling... a much higher ceiling IMO. Right now Hogan has the higher floor.

As for Kizer being the future... I can't speak for everyone here, but more than a few of us that want to continue to see him start do not know if he will be our future. That is why we want to see him start... to see what he can become.

As for Hogan being the future. I see him as being as good as he will ever be... right now. We can add pieces and support him better and win a little more thus achieving mediocrity, but that's it. That's what I see.

If you want to compete a little better in the short-term, start Hogan. If you want to win in the long-term, you start Kizer. Only one of them has the talent, the capacity to forestall spending one or more #1's on a QB in the 2018 Draft.

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I would go to kizer and say look kid u need a little bit more work, we'll give the ball to hogan for a few games than more than likely see u again before the season is over. Its not like its all kizers fault, britt has done his part to ensure we dont know exactly where kizer is. 

I really tho want to know who's Shmucking call it was to let helicopter go...that situation was "exactly" what we needed with two young kids on the squad. The decision should have been made between kessler and hogan. So we would have had kizer, one of the other guys and mccown. Perfect. Mccown prob could have come in the 2nd half of the jets game and won it. The week is back to one of the young guys and mccown brings you that easy going vet that coukd give a Sheet whether he starts the game and doesn't get his feelings hurt if he wins a game and the next week they start the young guy again. He even expressed direct interest in mentoring our young qb's didnt he? I mean Shmuck that one has to be on the FO cause they thought assoiler would be that guy.

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On 10/9/2017 at 12:12 PM, bbedward said:

Hoyer comes into mind

Yup... He's the comp I come up with as well. Probably minus Brian's fragile psyche, but also minus some of his velocity.

20 hours ago, Suomi said:

Kizer needs to sit and Hogan needs to start as the true #1 QB.  The concern over Kizer's psyche is irrelevant.  It's obvious that Hogan gives the Browns a much better chance to score points.  At this point I'm worried a lot more about the psyche of the team if Kizer continues to play.  Players play to win - and the current history of losing needs to be stopped.  Otherwise many of the most talented Browns players will walk when they hit free agency and sign with teams that they perceive will actually be competitive - leaving the Browns to plug the holes with rookie draft picks and waiver wire acquisitions.  Rinse, repeat.

Which of these Browns that are not under contract for 2018 do you see as "Key Players" that we must keep?

Player Pos. 2017 Team 2018 Team Type Current APY ▾ Guarantees
Isaiah Crowell RB Browns   UFA $2,746,000 $0
Josh Gordon WR Browns   RFA $1,335,412 $3,727,638
Tank Carder ILB Browns   UFA $1,250,000 $300,000
Matt McCants RT Browns   UFA $855,000 $80,000
Marcus Martin LG Browns   UFA $767,313 $671,252
Jamie Meder 43DT Browns   RFA $615,000 $0
Chris Barker LG Browns   ERFA $540,000 $0
T.Y. McGill 43DT Browns   RFA $525,000 $0
Dan Vitale FB Browns   ERFA $495,000 $0
Kevin Hogan QB Browns   ERFA $495,000 $0
Austin Reiter C Browns   ERFA $495,000 $0
Kasen Williams WR Browns   ERFA $457,500 $0

I'll wait...

6 hours ago, Furious Styles said:

Hogan will now be game planned. Hold your horses.

Not sure how much change there'd be outside of shortening the field you have to defend.

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1 minute ago, Clevfan4life said:

I really tho want to know who's Shmucking call it was to let helicopter go...

I think there was a consensus to not keep Josh around as a player.

As was mentioned on the game broadcast Hue did offer Josh a job as QB Coach, but Josh wanted to keep playing some where he had a chance of starting.

Which does raise the question as to what he may have been told about our 2017 QB plans and how closed that competition would be. I suspect he was told we were going with youth to determine whether or not we had a long-term starter on the roster... something he could never be... and that the "youth" would include a freshly drafted prospect.

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Tour, so we are guaranteed to return everyone except for the guys on that list? Wow. Impressive. (of course not including cuts)

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52 minutes ago, wargograw said:

Tour, so we are guaranteed to return everyone except for the guys on that list? Wow. Impressive. (of course not including cuts)

Not guaranteed, but it seems it is an imperative.... /s

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That's what I thought... your assessment is way beyond stats ability.

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4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

As a courtesy to a Noob, I split your post out of the pack...

The difference in ceilings seen is all due to physical tools. They give Kizer the higher ceiling... a much higher ceiling IMO. Right now Hogan has the higher floor.

As for Kizer being the future... I can't speak for everyone here, but more than a few of us that want to continue to see him start do not know if he will be our future. That is why we want to see him start... to see what he can become.

As for Hogan being the future. I see him as being as good as he will ever be... right now. We can add pieces and support him better and win a little more thus achieving mediocrity, but that's it. That's what I see.

If you want to compete a little better in the short-term, start Hogan. If you want to win in the long-term, you start Kizer. Only one of them has the talent, the capacity to forestall spending one or more #1's on a QB in the 2018 Draft.

Tour- you're about the only one left in Kamp Kizer. Even Zombo who was big on Deshone has backed off. The PD poll was 92% in favor of starting Hogan this week. Even Hue is thinking about it after he reviewed the tape. Physical tools don't mean squat if you can't utilize them when the lights come on. How many combine workout warriors turned into flat out busts in the NFL? 

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I'm seeing another Brandon Weeden\Derek Anderson in Deshone. Granted, he's more mobile than either. Can he improve? I sure hope so- but I have extreme doubts. & yeah, I know it's a small sample size in the pros. If you think I'm throwing him under the bus prematurely, go ahead. Even TCPO said he's probably never going to have top end accuracy- and that's a glaring, fatal flaw in my book. Almost all the top qbs are in the 65% completion category. Guess who checks in @ #10 this year so far? Hogan- with the same crappy receivers Kizer's been throwing to. 

Winning in the long term with Deshone at the wheel will help us win in the long term- when we go 2-14, and draft Darnold, Allen, or Rosen in 2018.  :lol::lol::lol:

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6 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Which of these Browns that are not under contract for 2018 do you see as "Key Players" that we must keep?

Player Pos. 2017 Team 2018 Team Type Current APY ▾ Guarantees
Isaiah Crowell RB Browns   UFA $2,746,000 $0
Josh Gordon WR Browns   RFA $1,335,412 $3,727,638
Tank Carder ILB Browns   UFA $1,250,000 $300,000
Matt McCants RT Browns   UFA $855,000 $80,000
Marcus Martin LG Browns   UFA $767,313 $671,252
Jamie Meder 43DT Browns   RFA $615,000 $0
Chris Barker LG Browns   ERFA $540,000 $0
T.Y. McGill 43DT Browns   RFA $525,000 $0
Dan Vitale FB Browns   ERFA $495,000 $0
Kevin Hogan QB Browns   ERFA $495,000 $0
Austin Reiter C Browns   ERFA $495,000 $0
Kasen Williams WR Browns   ERFA $457,500 $0

I'll wait...

I never indicated that I was referring to 2018 free agents.  

Bottom line:  for the best interest of the team Kizer needs to sit.  He's earned it.

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Ideally (with the benefit of hindsight), Hogan would've started last week against a relatively soft and forgiving Jets defense in Cleveland.  Hogan is going to get his 2nd start of his career AT Houston, and that doesn't sound like very much fun.  Yes, JJ Watt is out, but that doesn't mean the Texans' defense is any less potent.  They had two awful games against two RED HOT QB's in Alex Smith and Tom Brady, and that's nothing to be ashamed of if you ask me.  They shut down Mariota (and his backup), and they kept Andy Dalton out of the end zone (same guy who looked like Mr. Universe against us).  They also made life difficult for Bortles, who didn't have to do much because Houston started Savage who couldn't do a darn thing.  I say all of this because Hogan is going to have a difficult time against a Texans defense who prides itself on keeping the score low and terrorizing marginal QB's.  

Godspeed Mr. Hogan, you're not going into a pleasant scene this weekend.  Oh, for an added bonus, we get to see the QB we SHOULD'VE drafted.  So that's fun.  

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I really enjoyed the way Hogan played vs the Jets.

I thought Kizer would ride his preseason momentum into the regular season, but he has clearly regressed since week 1..  He can move the ball, but somehow turns it over almost every single time in the redzone..

Maybe Kizer will benefit from sitting a year, but with this upcoming draft, we might be looking at another QB(Which I think would be a bad mistake.. We need Barkley to complement Duke Johnson, and a solid WR if Gordon doesn't come back)

Hogan has looked good aside from 2 errant throws. He throws the ball with accuracy, he can move.

 

Might not have the strongest arm, but he can get it done..

I'd say stick with him for the long haul.. Dude is only 24, is 6'3", can pass, run, and make all his reads..

Imagine a healthy CC, Gordon, Saquon Barkley, Duke, Njoku, and DeValve all out there..
We would have a legitimate offense..

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14 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

So Hogan starts Sunday.

Yuppers, it's official. Wasn't exactly rocket science Hue, don't over think it. Time to ride this pony to see what he's got. Seasons already in the dumpster. Hogan plays well, Kizer sits a spell. He sucks or gets hurt, you bring back Kizer. If Deshone continues to stink, then you know you have to go Qb high in the 2018 draft. Win\win in my book. :)

Plus, no telling if Kevin has reached his ceiling yet. LoL, PO try to remain calm. Once upon a time, the Browns had this 17th round draft pick qb that turned into the league MVP. Wasn't exactly a cannon arm either.

& Tour- I'll just say this- I'm not expecting Hogan to be "The Savior" by any means. For all I know, you could be right and he's a newer edition of Charlie Frye. BUT- I got damn tired of seeing Kizer making stupid (OK, rookie) after stupid mistakes that were costing us games. Good for the team psyche too. How do you think the guys on our defense felt when we got in the Red Zone- we're gonna score this time, and TURNOVER. LIke oh s**t, here we go again? 

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At this point I'm all for Hogan starting. He gives the team a better chance at winning, and at this point I'm not sure what Kizer is getting out of playing so poorly.

But I'm confused by all this "Black Tarkenton" talk. How can Kizer hold the ball too long looking in vain for someone to be open, instead of throwing the ball away AND be someone who looks to run at the first sign of trouble?

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If the Browns had any qb even close to as good as Fran Tarkenton  playing for us in the last 20 years  the city would need a time out from jerking each other off. 

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On 10/10/2017 at 6:13 PM, Tour2ma said:

As a courtesy to a Noob, I split your post out of the pack...

The difference in ceilings seen is all due to physical tools. They give Kizer the higher ceiling... a much higher ceiling IMO. Right now Hogan has the higher floor.

As for Kizer being the future... I can't speak for everyone here, but more than a few of us that want to continue to see him start do not know if he will be our future. That is why we want to see him start... to see what he can become.

As for Hogan being the future. I see him as being as good as he will ever be... right now. We can add pieces and support him better and win a little more thus achieving mediocrity, but that's it. That's what I see.

If you want to compete a little better in the short-term, start Hogan. If you want to win in the long-term, you start Kizer. Only one of them has the talent, the capacity to forestall spending one or more #1's on a QB in the 2018 Draft.

Do you have any empirical evidence that he has better physical tools or are you just making things up again? Are there ANY stats from college that would indicate such? combine perhaps?
#fakenews

The pieces are there for him to be a good QB same as Hogan. Hogan's problem was his throwing motion was an complete mess. Kizers problem is his complete inconsistent ability his immature attitude and poor accuracy.

 

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4 hours ago, CaineDeSoulis said:

Do you have any empirical evidence that he has better physical tools or are you just making things up again? Are there ANY stats from college that would indicate such? combine perhaps?
#fakenews

The pieces are there for him to be a good QB same as Hogan. Hogan's problem was his throwing motion was an complete mess. Kizers problem is his complete inconsistent ability his immature attitude and poor accuracy.

Hue is enamored of QBs with big arms that can stretch the field. FLAW. Ahem- Hue "felt the earth move" when he saw RG III running around in a t-shirt and shorts with no pressure on him. I knew right then and there- that workout was less than worthless. Anyone notice- been thinking about this one- a more than casual similarity between Griffin and Kizer? I sure do.  You fit your offense to the talent on hand. The great coaches do- or are you just a "system" guy Hue trying to pound square pegs into round holes? 

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Browns will definitely win this weekend because the Indians lost horribly. 

 

 Kulber lost both starts this series... It's opposite week apparently. 

:(

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55 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Hue is enamored of QBs with big arms that can stretch the field. FLAW. Ahem- Hue "felt the earth move" when he saw RG III running around in a t-shirt and shorts with no pressure on him. I knew right then and there- that workout was less than worthless. Anyone notice- been thinking about this one- a more than casual similarity between Griffin and Kizer? I sure do.  You fit your offense to the talent on hand. The great coaches do- or are you just a "system" guy Hue trying to pound square pegs into round holes? 

NFL.com's Jeff Darlington reports Browns coach Hue Jackson came away extremely impressed with Colin Kaepernick following his free agent workout.

Per Darlington, Jackson told a group of Browns executives that it felt like Kaepernick "Was like a Greek God" after watching him "roll out in a full sprint to throw a pass ." Jackson reportedly called Kaepernick's accuracy in passing drills "heavenly," and was "astonished" in general. We don't doubt Colin is still a freak of nature in shorts and t-shirts, but it wasn't just personal animus that got him released in San Francisco.  Colin's natural gifts are rare in the history of football, but there's a lot standing between him and even resembling his elite younger form.

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17 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

At this point I'm all for Hogan starting. He gives the team a better chance at winning, and at this point I'm not sure what Kizer is getting out of playing so poorly.

But I'm confused by all this "Black Tarkenton" talk. How can Kizer hold the ball too long looking in vain for someone to be open, instead of throwing the ball away AND be someone who looks to run at the first sign of trouble?

Ghoolie double talk...  

10 hours ago, stillmotion said:

NFL.com's Jeff Darlington reports Browns coach Hue Jackson came away extremely impressed with Colin Kaepernick following his free agent workout.

Per Darlington, Jackson told a group of Browns executives that it felt like Kaepernick "Was like a Greek God" after watching him "roll out in a full sprint to throw a pass ." Jackson reportedly called Kaepernick's accuracy in passing drills "heavenly," and was "astonished" in general. We don't doubt Colin is still a freak of nature in shorts and t-shirts, but it wasn't just personal animus that got him released in San Francisco.  Colin's natural gifts are rare in the history of football, but there's a lot standing between him and even resembling his elite younger form.

Note to Sashi- tell Hue to cool it evaluating QBs,. first the earth moving, now Greek God? shove that evaluation up your a$$ Hue. I'll puke if the Browns sign this bum. 

EDIT: and what ya gonna do about Deshone Hue? He's all of a sudden not Greek Godly enough for ya? Same stupid crap as with Griffin. Beware of workouts with no live pass rush!!!

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