Tour2ma Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 19 hours ago, D Bone said: I hoped that Peppers would be like ERock (Eric Turner for some of you younger dudes) and make an immediate impact from opening day, but so far, that hasn't been the case...... and that's being very kind. I don't recall any hits by Peppers that would conjure up memories of Turner. Doesn't make him a bad choice... especially since you can't ERock anyone anymore. 18 hours ago, Dutch Oven said: I'm not writing Peppers off, not at all, but... The concern with Peppers is that he kind of falls into the category of "Jack of all trades, master of none". 18 hours ago, Orion said: I keep saying that Peppers was a player that played close to the LOS. So we play him on the warning track. Doesn't make sense to me..... Does anyone doubt that Peppers was drafted to play the role he played at Blue for Williams? Turned out he was the only healthy candidate for centerfield. That's not "misuse" in my book, at least not purposeful misuse, just best use as dictated by team need. 15 hours ago, Dutch Oven said: San Fran is good competition for the #1, but I think they can win 2 or 3. Agree... as I have for some time. And as I've said for some time, given the 49ers palpable lust for Cousins, it is good that they are a contender for #1 overall. They do face the Giants and Bears down the road... should compete in those games. Also possible they can make a stand against a division opponent, but even late those games should mean a lot more to LAR or SEA or AZ, than they do SF. Two feels about right. 15 hours ago, Clevfan4life said: He's officially tanking. Im serios when insay he's tanking draft stock right now to avoid the #1 pick If true, and I doubt it is, then that alone would be reason to avoid taking Darnold... unless there is now an "I" in "team". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 34 minutes ago, Tour2ma said: ... unless there is now an "I" in "team". "am"...and teams that have them..Look at the W-L record & falling...newsflash..Damn is Aaron Rogers good & a breath of fresh air if Browns ever figure it out..Team! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 39 minutes ago, Tour2ma said: I Does anyone doubt that Peppers was drafted to play the role he played at Blue for Williams? Turned out he was the only healthy candidate for centerfield. That's not "misuse" in my book, at least not purposeful misuse, just best use as dictated by team need. But here's my beef Tour....either we are committed to developing players or we are committed to trying to win now.....and the Browns are doing a little dance between the 2.... If we are committed to developing these guys and the wins dont really matter, then why waste a year of development playing a(#1 draft pick) guy like Peppers out of position???......did they not see this coming before they drafted him?(the need for a center fielder)??.....you KNOW we did.....Did the same with Schobert......and are playing Campbell at FS too(clearly a ss)..... Or....if we truly are making these choices based only upon trying to win....why ram Kizer out there when he clearly isnt ready? Or spend a year watching Erving Sheet the bed? Or refusing to adjust schemes to fit your players like Crow/Kizer/etc? Scrambling to get Collins in the middle of a season, because...uh oh....we dont have any LB's....and our freshly drafted DE didnt look good there.... I swear.....It really doesnt feel like they've thought any of this stuff through....feels very haphazard....unplanned.....and not a good environment for developing long term quality players, when you draft a guy(high) then aren't sure what you're gonna do with him.... and it feels like it keeps happening..... why did we draft Kessler in the 3rd again?.....to develop as a starter or be our back up?.....cause neither of those things has happened..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 6 hours ago, jiggins7919 said: While it's frustrating and enraging to lose this game, the loss has a darker feel to it because we fans know what it means. We've felt this situation too many times before, and we now know what is coming...another rebuild. Despite what Jimmy Haslam has said, this entire regime is completely toast. From the head coach to our front office, they're all gone. No... Jimmah made a deal at the beginning of this experiment that he will honor. 4 hours ago, jiggins7919 said: What I don't really know, and I guess nobody really CAN, is whether or not we should keep Kizer as the starter? should Kizer display more growth at this time? I saw Dallas run a very similar play, and Beasley was open, caught it, and scored. Shouldn't it be THAT simple? How does Kizer not immediately throw it to Crow? Isn't this the kind of stuff they practice? When Hue radios the play to Kizer's helmet, can't he TELL HIM where his first read is? Doesn't that conversation happen? ... but Hue Jackson can't call RED ZONE plays, and it's been a problem for going on two years. It was a problem last year, it's been an issue THIS year, and yesterday was the worst example of his deficiencies. He calls a terrific game, all game, until the ball gets close to the end zone. How is that possible? Does he panic? Does he just not understand what his team can do, or what the right thing is? I'll take a shot in case they weren't all rhetorical questions, although given your football acumen odds are they were... For now, yes, Kizer remains the starter. And he does until you are dead sure he is incapable of being "the one". Yes and no... "No" because he has shown some growth. He is reading progressions better. He is finding the right option more often and he is seeing the defender's relationship to the target better. "Yes" because his progression speed should be increasing plus his lack of touch has become more noticeable. QBs usually come equipped with more than Kizer is showing. Yes, it should. That it should be is why the play call cannot be blamed as you did above. The simple fact is that the compressed field that is the redzone, is an area in which Kizer has not spent a lot of game time... Prescott has. Last part first... no, Hue can't because Hue cannot be sure how the opposing D will line up pre-snap let alone what they will do at and after the snap. And it is the defensive read that determines who is "the primary" in any given play. Middle part... yes... practice on the field, go over in the QB room, the WR room, the RB room, and in their combined room. First part... because he's a rookie... a rookie with very little redzone experience who still has to think his way thru the process, not instinctively know where to go. Yes... in practice. Hue's not calling plays he has not seen work in practice and as I've said elsewhere both of the option left and the rollout right, I do not see them as bad calls. They were simply bad execution in a game situation... a low experience game situation. Just as the play between the 20's was better today, so should the redzone play be in time. Good questions... and even if the answers were not needed, they helped me coalesce my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browns1216 Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 having a dedicated OC would do wonders for this team, Hue just can't handle it. Bring in Bernie Kosar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 15 minutes ago, Mudfly said: But here's my beef Tour....either we are committed to developing players or we are committed to trying to win now.....and the Browns are doing a little dance between the 2.... If we are committed to developing these guys and the wins dont really matter, then why waste a year of development playing a(#1 draft pick) guy like Peppers out of position???......did they not see this coming before they drafted him?(the need for a center fielder)??.....you KNOW we did.....Did the same with Schobert......and are playing Campbell at FS too(clearly a ss)..... Or....if we truly are making these choices based only upon trying to win....why ram Kizer out there when he clearly isnt ready? Or spend a year watching Erving Sheet the bed? Or refusing to adjust schemes to fit your players like Crow/Kizer/etc? Scrambling to get Collins in the middle of a season, because...uh oh....we dont have any LB's....and our freshly drafted DE didnt look good there.... I swear.....It really doesnt feel like they've thought any of this stuff through....feels very haphazard....unplanned.....and not a good environment for developing long term quality players, when you draft a guy(high) then aren't sure what you're gonna do with him.... and it feels like it keeps happening..... why did we draft Kessler in the 3rd again?.....to develop as a starter or be our back up?.....cause neither of those things has happened..... All good questions... On Williams use of Peppers vs. Hue's use of Kizer... different approaches by autonomous Coordinators. Best answer I can come up with. What rostered FS candidate do we have that is a better athlete than Peppers? Could we have drafted a better candidate? Hell, yes... maybe as many as five different ones by my count. I mocked one of them in about every draft I did. Turns out our FO's evaluations and/or priorities, a/k/a "big boards", were different than mine... and yours. Kizer is a special case aided by the failure of those he was supposed to sit behind to out audition him. Now the die is cast and we have to know. It's that simple. And here is a key I hadn't flashed to at this point... the answer that emerges through the season not only dictates the action we take, but also provides the capital to make that action a reality. In other words if Kizer fails his way all the way through the season, then we end up able to pick his replacement. If on the other hand he starts to "feel it" or "get it' ultimately leading us to wins that are "QB pick of the litter" disqualifying, then we don't care. It's a win-win, that may require a helluva lot of losing in the process. Collins was a piece at which we leapt and locked in. I'm not regretting that move. Are you? I do fail to see what Erving has to do with anything. More so since we had no choice but to play him last season due to injuries to Bito and Greco. It was good to see old Cam last nite... I was literally laughing out loud at his continuing ineptitude... and harder at Collinsworth's determination to praise any hint of mediocrity. And I'm saying that as one who generally likes Chris' work. On "the plan"... we differ on what calendar year of the rebuild we are in with me favoring the Julian and you the Hebrew??? So I can't really help you there except to say that not every hole is plugged year one. So if you use my calendar... Peppers... I've bought swiss army knives not knowing for what I was going to use it. Kessler... he was a shot. A group consensus pick QB I am sure we thought we stole at the time. Were the 2016 QB class in the upcoming draft, I doubt we'd make the same choice. And I say that ignoring Goff, Wentz and the rest of the class. I think having seen two years of Hue's Offense that our scouting department would agree that Kess fits the QB needs of Hue's Offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 17 minutes ago, Tour2ma said: All good questions... Kizer is a special case aided by the failure of those he was supposed to sit behind to out audition him. Now the die is cast and we have to know. It's that simple. And here is a key I hadn't flashed to at this point... the answer that emerges through the season not only dictates the action we take, but also provides the capital to make that action a reality. In other words if Kizer fails his way all the way through the season, then we end up able to pick his replacement. If on the other hand he starts to "feel it" or "get it' ultimately leading us to wins that are "QB pick of the litter" disqualifying, then we don't care. It's a win-win, that may require a helluva lot of losing in the process. Tour- my beef is Kizer has shown me nothing so far to make me believe he's anything other than a younger and smarter version of Brandon Weeden. We're not going to need to go 1-15 to get the #1 overall pick to get our QBOTF in 2018 if Deshone flops- we have enough draft capital to move up there anyway, unless one of the prospects emerges as Andrew Luck good. Hmmmm.... Carson Wentz @ #2? How many great qbs came out of that Elway draft? I think you know how Mud & me feel. It's not going to stunt Kizer's development to sit out a couple games and process what he's learned. I don't know what your beef is about Hogan- he's got a decent enough arm, certainly more accurate, plenty mobile, and is a couple beats faster in making decisions. This fan base is absolutely sick of losing game, after game, after game- and looking bad doing so. PD poll as of last night had 92% of the fans wanting to see more of Hogan. Ignore that factoid at your own risk Hue. I don't think you need to have a 100% certainty that Deshone is (or is not) "the guy" for 16 games to give Hogan a fair shot. IMHO, he's earned it. Seems to me if Kizer was handed the job because of preseason- as Mud so well pointed out, this isn't a static picture by a long shot. Kizer has seriously regressed, and Hogan has drastically improved. PS regarding Hogan's throws needing circus catches- LOL, at least they're within range for his receivers to MAKE circus catches. I've already tired of seeing Kizer air mail balls 5 feet over our guy's heads, or a similar distance in front or behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickers Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 11 minutes ago, hoorta said: Tour- my beef is Kizer has shown me nothing so far to make me believe he's anything other than a younger and smarter version of Brandon Weeden. We're not going to need to go 1-15 to get the #1 overall pick to get our QBOTF in 2018 if Deshone flops- we have enough draft capital to move up there anyway, unless one of the prospects emerges as Andrew Luck good. Hmmmm.... Carson Wentz @ #2? How many great qbs came out of that Elway draft? I think you know how Mud & me feel. It's not going to stunt Kizer's development to sit out a couple games and process what he's learned. I don't know what your beef is about Hogan- he's got a decent enough arm, certainly more accurate, plenty mobile, and is a couple beats faster in making decisions. This fan base is absolutely sick of losing game, after game, after game- and looking bad doing so. PD poll as of last night had 92% of the fans wanting to see more of Hogan. Ignore that factoid at your own risk Hue. I don't think you need to have a 100% certainty that Deshone is (or is not) "the guy" for 16 games to give Hogan a fair shot. IMHO, he's earned it. Seems to me if Kizer was handed the job because of preseason- as Mud so well pointed out, this isn't a static picture by a long shot. Kizer has seriously regressed, and Hogan has drastically improved. PS regarding Hogan's throws needing circus catches- LOL, at least they're within range for his receivers to MAKE circus catches. I've already tired of seeing Kizer air mail balls 5 feet over our guy's heads, or a similar distance in front or behind them. Kizer is DA Part Deaux! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 I hope Peppers is where he is by next necessity, and we can make better use of his skills in the future. I believe some of you are over playing Hogan's positives and Kizers negatives Going for it was the right decision I believe you bring in a top drafted QB when you trust the talent around them. I don't think we're there (barring FA). That's why I'd keep taking high round, high Potential guys at positions of need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 8 minutes ago, MLD Woody said: I hope Peppers is where he is by next necessity, and we can make better use of his skills in the future. I believe some of you are over playing Hogan's positives and Kizers negatives Going for it was the right decision I believe you bring in a top drafted QB when you trust the talent around them. I don't think we're there (barring FA). That's why I'd keep taking high round, high Potential guys at positions of need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 21 minutes ago, MLD Woody said: Going for it was the right decision Don't agree. We did not have to go or it. We were not down by 4 or more...near the end of the game. People act like tying the game was an evil thing to do. Instead we walked off the field dejected...and the game went into the crapper. Until we called a screen when they happened to call an all out blitz. But we had to go for an onside kick...because we couldn't and then wouldn't kick a FG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 8 hours ago, MLD Woody said: I believe some of you are over playing Hogan's positives and Kizer's negatives. I believe you bring in a top drafted QB when you trust the talent around them. I don't think we're there (barring FA). That's why I'd keep taking high round, high Potential guys at positions of need I don't need to overplay Hogan's positives when after the Steelers game, Kizer has been beyond horrible. A 1:3 TD int ratio, and the benched Mike Glennon looks all-pro by comparison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillmotion Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 12 hours ago, Mudfly said: why did we draft Kessler in the 3rd again?.....to develop as a starter or be our back up?.....cause neither of those things has happened..... To develop him to play third string, obviously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Hue told his o line and his RB to go get a yd or two. They got stuffed at the LOS. The only thing that will really upset me about this coaching staff is if they keep these players around that consistently show them they aint got it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter33109 Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 What can be said. Just when think the Browns have exploited all possible ways to give away a game, they surprise you with yet another. I would think it was a statically impossibility to lose as badly and consistently as the Browns. If was a conspiracy nut I would suspect that management is throwing these games to gain leverage to move the team to another town but what town would want a gaggle of losers? It's getting laughable, every week I watch the scrolling scores and hope that Browns will finally have a good week and for the past two seasons they have disappointed me. I don't know what the answer is but short of an exorcism I feel the management has to start thinking with their heads and not their hearts. Look at all the QB's that the Browns have passed on who have returned to haunt them. This week will be no exception. The Texans are up for this game and its very likely that the Browns will lose, my prediction is a lose by 16 points with a "gimme" score with 10 seconds left in the game. Here we go again, the count down clock to 0-16 is ticking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 On 10/9/2017 at 2:44 PM, hoorta said: Tour- my beef is Kizer has shown me nothing so far to make me believe he's anything other than a younger and smarter version of Brandon Weeden. We're not going to need to go 1-15 to get the #1 overall pick to get our QBOTF in 2018 if Deshone flops- we have enough draft capital to move up there anyway, unless one of the prospects emerges as Andrew Luck good. Hmmmm.... Carson Wentz @ #2? How many great qbs came out of that Elway draft? I think you know how Mud & me feel. It's not going to stunt Kizer's development to sit out a couple games and process what he's learned. I don't know what your beef is about Hogan- he's got a decent enough arm, certainly more accurate, plenty mobile, and is a couple beats faster in making decisions. This fan base is absolutely sick of losing game, after game, after game- and looking bad doing so. PD poll as of last night had 92% of the fans wanting to see more of Hogan. Ignore that factoid at your own risk Hue. I don't think you need to have a 100% certainty that Deshone is (or is not) "the guy" for 16 games to give Hogan a fair shot. IMHO, he's earned it. Seems to me if Kizer was handed the job because of preseason- as Mud so well pointed out, this isn't a static picture by a long shot. Kizer has seriously regressed, and Hogan has drastically improved. PS regarding Hogan's throws needing circus catches- LOL, at least they're within range for his receivers to MAKE circus catches. I've already tired of seeing Kizer air mail balls 5 feet over our guy's heads, or a similar distance in front or behind them. h, I can't look for you. I've written about the progress I see that Kizer has made... and the new issues that progress has unveiled. You can choose to believe me or not. He may well be a younger, smarter version of Wheezy... I could live with that because that means he has upside Wheezy never did have. Unless either the team with the #1 overall does not need a QB or we like someone who is not the pick of the litter, we'd better have the #1 overall. No amount of draft capital can pry the consensus best away from a team with need. Teams tried that with Luck. WE tried that with Luck. And even a team who still held the rights to Peyton friggin Manning turned a deaf ear. I have no beef with Hogan. There's nothing personal between me and Hogan. I just see him starting as a waste of time. I do not see him winning any games between now and our bye week. Do you? Do you want to simply "feel better" because we "competed" a little better under Hogan? Lord help us if we let "fans" into our decision process. Then resign yourself that you are going to draft a QB... high... and pay through the nose for it. And the more cheap wins that salve your delicate psyche, the more we will pay... for the second choice... or third. How much more of a "fair shot" do we need to give Hogan? Was a half with a mere three point deficit a good start? Isn't winning jobs what preseason is about? Hogan throws a more catchable ball... no disputing that. Softballs are easier to catch... and adjust to. Touch is one of the things Kizer needs to learn... a problem lesser arms, like Hogan's, do not have to deal with. On 10/9/2017 at 2:55 PM, nickers said: Kizer is DA Part Deaux! lol... no... DA threw to read one regardless of coverage all the time. Kizer is only a part timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 On 10/9/2017 at 10:52 AM, TexasAg1969 said: He needs to get with his players and his O coaches and work this out far in advance of game day. He goes into brain freeze the closer they get to the goalline. Someone has to become the OC whisperer in his ear and remind him what they are doing on the plan the closer they get to scoring. AND no TOs early on dammit!! I have to agree. Seems like he goes into "brain freeze" mode every time (almost every time) we're near the darn goal line. I've brought it up a dozen times, but I'll bring it up again: The last game of 2016 when we needed a TD to WIN THE GAME, and he calls the WR screen to Hawkins that loses 7 yards or more. That did it for me. The game didn't mean a thing for the Steelers, but it would've been nice for our team and our fans, and that might've been the worst play I've ever seen in my entire life. With the game on the line. Against a rival. Jesus. And that's not an isolated incident by FAR. Remember the 2016 Redskins game? We had a lead (remember those?) and we were in the red zone, moving the ball up and down the field, and then Hue calls a running play with our young FB who I don't believe EVER carried the ball before in the NFL (I could be wrong, but don't think so). Now, obviously Hue didn't fumble the ball. Crow just ran several long plays and was winded. Duke might've been injured. Regardless, is that REALLY the best time to hand the ball off to that guy? Again, fumbling the ball isn't Hue's fault, but COME ON. Even a FG there puts so much pressure on the opposition (I forget how many we were up...maybe 10?). Anyways, there are more and more situations I can bring up that call into question Hue's ability to finish off a drive. Hue didn't throw the interception against the Jets, and he didn't throw the awful pitch to Crow. He also wasn't the guy that failed to FALL ON THE DANG FUMBLE. But an option? UGH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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