***Official Browns @ Colts Game Day Thread***

[The Gipper]

18 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Was not sure where to put this, but this is the most ridiculous game crushing penalty I have ever heard of anywhere. Von Miller gets an unsportsmanlike penalty for taking away his offered hand to good friend Tyrod Taylor after he sacks him at a crucial point in the game. They had been messing with one another in a friendly manner throughout the game, but the ref throws the flag on Miller for not helping him up when it appears he was going to. That is ridiculous even if Miller blames himself for the loss because it was called. Even Taylor thought it was funny and more so that it got called.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20807230/von-miller-late-penalty-allowed-buffalo-bills-extend-their-lead-denver-broncos

He is to blame.  It is tantamount to taunting.  They have relaxed the "celebration" rules greatly this year, but if the refs perceive that you taunt a player on the other team, that will still get you flagged.  In my opinion, this was justified in this instance. 

[Tour2ma]

On 9/25/2017 at 10:21 AM, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

The bigger problem is that last year Crow was averaging nearly 5 YPC and this year he's averaging 2.9. He's not a game-changing RB, he has questionable vision and he's having a hard time finding the holes. Sometimes he goes off, but as of right now he is a below average back.

I've beat the vision drum for a year+ at this point, but have to remind folks that his gaudy 2016 average was pumped up by more than a few long runs in draw situations when we were behind in games and behind the sticks.

23 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

My issue so far isn't Peppers alignment but two glarring plays he did exactly what stat treads said - missed tackles.  Bad.

Tackling was a questions to be sure, but I did not think bad angles were part of the mix... and Sunday they were. Maybe the difference is they space in which he is now playing, but on that point...

Am I crazy or did Gregg abandon how he asked our 2ndary to play this week? Where was the press coverage of the WRs? Seemed like 5 to 10 yd cushions were the order of the day... all day.

[SD_Tom]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Didn't Hooker go higher in the draft anyway?  I thought so.  Not sure.

He went 15th.... He's got 2 picks already

[Tour2ma]

19 hours ago, wargograw said:

Seriously though, Chubb's pretty overrated.

16 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Why is he overrated?

EDIT: He’s the 41st ranked player on CBS’ Big Board and the 5th ranked RB. He’s not ranked very high and is averaging 6.8 YPC for his career, has two 1100+ yard seasons and IMO has some of the best vision of any draft eligible RB this year.

Agree... looks like value to me.

2 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

1. The truly frustrating part is watching guys like Taylor Gabriel, Travis Benjamin, and probably others that we HAD at one point, continue to make NFL plays that matter.
2. Kizer threw him a terrible ball on that pick, but Jesus...sometimes a veteran has to pick up the rookie, and he let him down there.

1. Gabe and Benji are not #1's with their current teams. Benji's a 2. Gabe's a 3. Both at least one spot lower than we asked them to be when they were ours. You want to decry our not having a #1 WR that can either get on or stay on the field? Fine... but at least see those that "got away" for what they are.
2. That ball was uncatchable.

[Tour2ma]

10 minutes ago, SD_Tom said:

He went 15th.... He's got 2 picks already

His Centerfield capability was never in question.

 

A word on Peppers... I'm not down on the guy and he may be the most well-suited DB we have for his current role, but I don't think any of us thought this was the role we drafted him to play.

I can see a FS in our future Draft plans. I just hope there are half as many candidates in the upcoming draft as there were in the 2017 one.

[tiamat63]

34 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

did Gregg abandon how he asked our 2ndary to play this week? Where was the press coverage of the WRs? Seemed like 5 to 10 yd cushions were the order of the day... all day.

I couldn't explain that if I wanted to.   In the modern NFL you simply have to challenge receivers at the line or pattern match on a bump.  Unless you have either Champ Bailey or some elite off ball CB?  Other option is some type of bluff look and you get a DB or LB rolling to a cloud or flat.    Not re-routing a receiver with a young QB throwing to him is making their day easier, nothing more nothing less. 

[TexasAg1969]

3 hours ago, The Gipper said:

He is to blame.  It is tantamount to taunting.  They have relaxed the "celebration" rules greatly this year, but if the refs perceive that you taunt a player on the other team, that will still get you flagged.  In my opinion, this was justified in this instance. 

Yeah and he owns up to it. But still if you are the ref and you've been listening to the banter and laughter between them all game and you hear the QB laughing at the hand withdrawal, you just might give a little leeway rather than "by the book".

[Tour2ma]

PFF"s taken on our game vs. Indy...  https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-refocused-indianapolis-colts-31-cleveland-browns-28

 

The Colts would double up the Browns on the scoreboard in the first half. QB Jacoby Brissett had a pair of rushing touchdowns and a touchdown pass to WR T.Y. Hilton, and later RB Frank Gore would add a fourth touchdown. The Browns would respond late in the half with a QB DeShone Kizer touchdown pass to TE David Njoku, but the Browns would go into half time down 28-14.

The Browns would be game for the second half however, as Kizer would throw a touchdown to WR Kenny Britt and would also run for a score. However they would fall short 31-28. With that, we give you our PFF exclusive takeaways from the contest for each team.

Top 5 Grades:

QB Jacoby Brissett, 86.2 overall grade

T Anthony Castonzo, 84.5 overall grade

EDGE Jabaal Sheard, 81.2 overall grade

CB Nate Hairston, 79.4 overall grade

DI Johnathan Hankins, 79.3 overall grade

Performances of Note:

QB Jacoby Brissett, 86.2 overall grade

A career game for the second-year signal caller out of North Carolina State, Brissett finished the contest with grades north of 83 in both passing and rushing. Brissett had quite a bit of success moving the ball when he was provided a clean pocket, completing 15 of 19 passes for 248 yards and a touchdown, giving him a 136.3 passer rating on throws coming without pressure. He also had success when he pushed the ball downfield, completing 7 of 9 passes that traveled at least 10 yards down the field for a total of 203 yards and a touchdown.

WR T.Y. Hilton, 78.3 overall grade

Hilton wreaked havoc among the Browns secondary, hauling in 7 of 9 passes for a total of 153 yards and a touchdown, Brissett had a 155.8 passer rating when targeting his star receiver. He was especially effective when matched up opposite Jamar Taylor, where he caught 4 of 5 targets for 125 yards and a touchdown, with the one incompletion being a drop. Hilton averaged 5.28 yards per route run against Cleveland after he averaged just 1.61 yards per route run in the first two weeks.

CB Rashaan Melvin, 73.8 overall grade

You’d think with a stat line of thrown at nine times, with just three receptions allowed to go against two interceptions and two pass break ups, Melvin would have a career grade. Well this is the case in point for how stats can be misleading. On both his picks he was the beneficiary of being beaten in coverage but having errant throws land in his arms, while the Browns struggles holding onto the ball helped as well. But it was a good performance from Melvin, who has quietly started the season very nicely, doing nothing to suggest he shouldn’t be starting.

EDGE Jabaal Sheard, 81.2 overall grade

Sheard returned to the team that drafted him and played like he had a point to prove. Chiefly working on T Shon Coleman, he had his best day as a Colt with four pressures and a number of wins that resulted in near pressures. It’s taken time but he’s starting to show the ceiling he has, though he’ll need to do it against better tackles than Coleman to make fans believers in Indy.

 

Top 5 Grades:

T Joe Thomas, 87.6 overall grade

DI Jamie Meder, 84.8 overall grade

LB Christian Kirksey, 84.3 overall grade

DT Danny Shelton, 84.1 overall grade

CB Jason McCourty, 83.4 overall grade

Performances of Note:

QB DeShone Kizer, 69.7 overall grade

If you’re looking for a quarterback to take you to the playoffs this year, Kizer is not your guy. But that’s not what the Browns are focused on, and instead what they’ll be looking at is can he be a franchise quarterback in the long term. There was more good than bad (even with his receivers dropping three passes and doing a bad job of holding onto three more with defensive contact), including three big time throws that show he can really punish a defense over the top. But when it comes to 2017 there are too many errant throws and a tendency to hold the ball that bit too long.

T Joe Thomas, 87.6 overall grade

It was another quiet day for Joe Thomas, as he went about his job with the kind of near flawless performance we’ve come to expect. He built on his snap streak, didn’t surrender a single pressure and just for good measure was the highest graded Browns run blocker and their highest-graded player. Would you expect anything else?

LB Christian Kirksey, 84.3 overall grade

A redemption game for Kirksey, as he followed up the putrid 24.1 overall game he earned last week against Baltimore with his best game of the season in Week 3. The linebacker from Iowa tallied six total stops on the day – more than doubling his season total, he had five in the first two weeks – and played well in both run defense and coverage.

DT Danny Shelton, 84.1 overall grade

Shelton ate up the middle of the field on Sunday, earning an 88.7 run-defense grade from his spot in the defensive interior. Shelton tallied five run stops on 19 run defense snaps; he had just one run stop on 32 run defense snaps in the first two weeks. Shelton had the second-most run stops among all defensive tackles last season, look for more weeks like this one moving forward.

PFF Game Ball: Jacoby Brissett, QB

[The Gipper]

Bottom line....they let T.Y. Hilton run wild in the first half.   Let's see Jamar Taylor and Peppers scores....because they were scorched.

I have asked a few times what adjustments the Browns made in the second half to have they do so much better........One of them may have been to take Taylor off and put McCourty on Hilton.

I don't really know...just speculating...but it is plausible.

[wargograw]

Glad Shelton's playing well. Now, when do we get Garrett back?

[MLD Woody]

23 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

Well, after returning 3 punts against the Stoolers (with a respectable 11yard avg) he returned zero against the Rats and zero against the Dolts.

Whats the over/under against the Bungholes?

I imagine that depends on how they punt

[MLD Woody]

7 hours ago, The Gipper said:

You are the one that was doing the trolling from what I can read.  His posts were only in response to like 3 "poor, poor, pitiful me" posts about Peppers.

And, you know, we still hold YOU personally responsible for his play, you know.

Just don't make me personally responsible for your reading comprehension lessons

[MLD Woody]

9 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

FWIW-I don't like how they are using Peppers in this new deep centerfield position. Not his fault they are not playing to his hybrid talent. Maybe once Collins and Garrett are playing to full potential it will work better with faster pressure on the QB, but right now it isn't working.

I don't think that's his best position either, but as Williams said, he's the best at it on our current roster.

[CaineDeSoulis]

im not really sure where the hate is coming from on peppers he's made a couple rookie mistakes but has otherwise been okay. its because he played for michigan right?

[The Gipper]

16 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Just don't make me personally responsible for your reading comprehension lessons

With your Michigan education, I would not expect you to be responsible for your own reading comprehension  (nor would I expect you to know or understand why people would be kicking you when you have a "Kick me" sign on your back).  In fact, I would not expect you to be able to comprehend much.  (though, perhaps I will grant you this:  you probably know math better than most....but then...when have you ever seen a mathematician with a sense of humor)?

[The Gipper]

14 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

I don't think that's his best position either, but as Williams said, he's the best at it on our current roster.

Ahh....so....where in hell is he supposed to play?  Left out?

Lets be real.  He is not a cornerback, not with his minimal coverage skills.  Should he be a Strong Safety rather than a Free Safety?  While on rare occasion he can line up for LB...he is NOT built for that.  I mean. Where is he best at?  Irish Rover?

[Canton Dawg]

26 minutes ago, CaineDeSoulis said:

im not really sure where the hate is coming from on peppers he's made a couple rookie mistakes but has otherwise been okay. its because he played for michigan right?

No, it’s because he was born on the 3rd full moon following Passover.

Everybody knows he’s cursed.

[The Gipper]

46 minutes ago, CaineDeSoulis said:

im not really sure where the hate is coming from on peppers he's made a couple rookie mistakes but has otherwise been okay. its because he played for michigan right?

You are just falsely perceiving it as "hate because he played for Michigan".  That's horseshit.   Look at the shit this board has piled on to Kizer....was that because he went to Notre Dame?

Look at the shit this board has given to Garrett, is this because he went to Texas A&M?  Look at the shit that we give to every other Browns player that is perceived to fuck up.    They are given shit because they fuck up...not because they went to Bohunk College or Bottom of the Grand Canyon University...or Michigan or Ohio State.   You know why we never give shit to Ohio State players?  Because we don't have any.  But when we did we gave them shit too.   What was the nickname for Robiskie....which is like the last OSU player on this team? Can't remember it has been so long...but it wasn't flattering.

[Canton Dawg]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

You are just falsely perceiving it as "hate because he played for Michigan".  That's horseshit.   Look at the shit this board has piled on to Kizer....was that because he went to Notre Dame?

Look at the shit this board has given to Garrett, is this because he went to Texas A&M?  Look at the shit that we give to every other Browns player that is perceived to fuck up.    They are given shit because they fuck up...not because they went to Bohunk College or Bottom of the Grand Canyon University...or Michigan or Ohio State.   You know why we never give shit to Ohio State players?  Because we don't have any.  But when we did we gave them shit too.   What was the nickname for Robiskie....which is like the last OSU player on this team? Can't remember it has been so long...but it wasn't flattering.

Slowbiskie.

Great as a Buckeye...but sucked as a Cleveland Brown.

[Mudfly]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

   You know why we never give shit to Ohio State players?  Because we don't have any.  But when we did we gave them shit too.   What was the nickname for Robiskie....which is like the last OSU player on this team? Can't remember it has been so long...but it wasn't flattering.

We just cut a couple OSU players and I didnt hear a peep....both Hartline and Whitner were OSU stars that were just here recently.....

We also signed and cut an OSU DB this past year....cant remember his name though.....

[tiamat63]

12 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Tackling was a questions to be sure, but I did not think bad angles were part of the mix... and Sunday they were. Maybe the difference is they space in which he is now playing, but on that point...

 

Good tackling and proper angles go hand in hand.    

JT Barrett isn't a shifty man and he hit Peppers with a move 2 years ago that made him look silly.   Needless to say I watched closely during a lot of other UM games following said time.    Pursuit angles aren't as much of an issue when you're as close to the line with a singular assignment like Jabrill was for the better part of two years.  

Now, does he have the athletic ability and drive to clean this up? Sure.     Does he have the in game kinetic awareness, depth perception and field vision?   Remains to be seen.   However the explosive punt returning has been MIA since the draft.   

[hoorta]

8 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Bottom line....they let T.Y. Hilton run wild in the first half.   Let's see Jamar Taylor and Peppers scores....because they were scorched.

I have asked a few times what adjustments the Browns made in the second half to have they do so much better........One of them may have been to take Taylor off and put McCourty on Hilton.

I don't really know...just speculating...but it is plausible.

From my viewpoint, the coverage was a lot tighter on Hilton in the second half. They should have done it a lot earlier....   

 

[The Gipper]

15 hours ago, Mudfly said:

We just cut a couple OSU players and I didnt hear a peep....both Hartline and Whitner were OSU stars that were just here recently.....

We also signed and cut an OSU DB this past year....cant remember his name though.....

OK, but we didn't draft them.  Would that have made a difference?

[The Gipper]

11 hours ago, hoorta said:

From my viewpoint, the coverage was a lot tighter on Hilton in the second half. They should have done it a lot earlier....   

 

Is that all there was to it?  Just play tighter on him?   Were they giving him like 5-7 yards of space off the line of scrimmage?

To quote Sherlock Holmes:  Can it be just that absurdly simple?

[Tour2ma]

13 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

... angles aren't as much of an issue when you're as close to the line with a singular assignment like Jabrill was for the better part of two years. 

Exactly what I was getting at with my "space" comment.

On Peppers' tackling... I remember his highlight package including a number of considerably less than "form tackles". In fact I am hard pressed to remember a form tackle let alone a "big hit". I can remember a couple times when he bypassed opportunities to thump.

While the former can be dismissed by the fact he got them on the ground, it might have been a harbinger of the "space problem" we saw Sunday. The latter? Does Peppers have a taste for contact?

Woody? My bad memory? I know it's not my Big Blue bias...

[MLD Woody]

23 hours ago, CaineDeSoulis said:

im not really sure where the hate is coming from on peppers he's made a couple rookie mistakes but has otherwise been okay. its because he played for michigan right?

Pretty much. Yeah

[The Gipper]

17 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Pretty much. Yeah

No.....we already corrected that record. 

[tiamat63]

I preached against Manziel to anyone that would listen predraft and when those issues carried over into the pro's I made sure to highlight that.   Must have been because I hate A&M, huh?

Unlike Johnny I'm more willing to give Jabrill the benefit of the doubt.  Because he has the physical gifts, the work ethic and he's not an insufferable party douche. 

 

I'm pulling for him because, god damn do we need it.   I'm also on record as saying - it's not a pick I would have made. 

[The Gipper]

4 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I preached against Manziel to anyone that would listen predraft and when those issues carried over into the pro's I made sure to highlight that.   Must have been because I hate A&M, huh?

Unlike Johnny I'm more willing to give Jabrill the benefit of the doubt.  Because he has the physical gifts, the work ethic and he's not an insufferable party douche. 

 

I'm pulling for him because, god damn do we need it.   I'm also on record as saying - it's not a pick I would have made. 

Well, one point about Peppers is that, even though he is only 3 games into his career....you have to ask if he is being used properly....or is Williams still experimenting with his skill set.

As I said earlier, one of the main things that was hoping for at least here in his rookie season was for him to really give us something in the return game.  So far, nada.   Not all his fault because almost every kickoff these days is a touchback, and they have been punting the ball out of bounds on him.  But he really had a chance in that last minute of the Colts game....and he cacked up a furball....and he knew it. 

[tiamat63]

Honestly at this point I'm having a hard time trying to pinpoint what his coverage responsibility is.   As far as I can tell its "every stays in front, secure the tackle".   Fundamental stuff.