Kizer

[Tour2ma]

14 hours ago, Flugel said:

Coming off 1-15, after a 3-18 finish from the previous regime, 8 consecutive forfeits is asking a lot of this fan base.  It's not like Kizer is the 1st or 2nd pick overall.  He's a 2nd round QB that threw 2 nice deep balls in the preseason.  I'd rather have the 21 year old watch Hogan from the sidelines real soon. 

So which QB are you drafting with our first pick?

Or do you seriously think Hogan can be our franchise QB?

[hoorta]

9 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

So which QB are you drafting with our first pick?

Or do you seriously think Hogan can be our franchise QB?

Too early to tell who I'd draft 2018. Not sure at all about Hogan being franchise material. I'm with PO on this one, what I've seen out of Kevin so far, he sucks less than Deshone. It was supposed to be building a winning culture, right?  And we ain't winning. Kelly benched DK @ Notre Dame, and MHO is Hue should do the same thing here. At least for a couple of games. You afraid you're going to hurt is ego? He essentially got handed the starting job.

[The Gipper]

38 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

So which QB are you drafting with our first pick?

Or do you seriously think Hogan can be our franchise QB?

Here is CBS top 10 draft prospects for next year...so far:

1	Arden Key	DE	1	LSU	Jr	6-6	238
2	Sam Darnold	QB	1	Southern California	Soph	6-4	225
3	Harold Landry	OLB	1	Boston College	Sr	6-3	250
4	Mason Rudolph	QB	2	Oklahoma State	Sr	6-5	230
5	Derwin James	SS	1	Florida State	Soph	6-3	211
6	Christian Wilkins	DT	1	Clemson	Jr	6-4	310
7	Derrius Guice	RB	1	LSU	Jr	5-11	212
8	Saquon Barkley	RB	2	Penn State	Jr	5-11	223
10	Tarvarus McFadden	CB	1	Florida State	Jr Who do you like?

[bbedward]

Meh, its only been 3 games for the 21 y/o rookie.

He's played pretty crap and I don't understand why so many people are sucking his dick, but I'm not ready to replace him yet. 

Still a lot of season left and plenty of time for improvement. Kizer is probably the only one that may end up being "the guy" on the roster. If he doesn't work out we're going to be looking to the draft - although a capable backup, I don't think Hogan is going to be our diamond in the rough.

 

[The Gipper]

25 minutes ago, bbedward said:

Meh, its only been 3 games for the 21 y/o rookie.

He's played pretty crap and I don't understand why so many people are sucking his dick, but I'm not ready to replace him yet. 

Still a lot of season left and plenty of time for improvement. Kizer is probably the only one that may end up being "the guy" on the roster. If he doesn't work out we're going to be looking to the draft - although a capable backup, I don't think Hogan is going to be our diamond in the rough.

 

They have a couple of DBs  on the list I posted above, and OLB and DE.    Are the Browns in a position to take BPA? They may be....but would QB be the one spot they would pass on?

[Tour2ma]

PFF's take on Kizer's week... a perfectably reasonable one IMO.

QB DeShone Kizer, 69.7 overall grade

If you’re looking for a quarterback to take you to the playoffs this year, Kizer is not your guy. But that’s not what the Browns are focused on, and instead what they’ll be looking at is can he be a franchise quarterback in the long term. There was more good than bad (even with his receivers dropping three passes and doing a bad job of holding onto three more with defensive contact), including three big time throws that show he can really punish a defense over the top. But when it comes to 2017 there are too many errant throws and a tendency to hold the ball that bit too long.

[Mark O]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

PFF's take on Kizer's week... a perfectably reasonable one IMO.

QB DeShone Kizer, 69.7 overall grade

If you’re looking for a quarterback to take you to the playoffs this year, Kizer is not your guy. But that’s not what the Browns are focused on, and instead what they’ll be looking at is can he be a franchise quarterback in the long term. There was more good than bad (even with his receivers dropping three passes and doing a bad job of holding onto three more with defensive contact), including three big time throws that show he can really punish a defense over the top. But when it comes to 2017 there are too many errant throws and a tendency to hold the ball that bit too long.

Accurate and fair review.   My question (and i'm too lazy to look it up myself) how does this for a 3rd start compare to say Mariotta or Winston from 2 years ago?  Guys who were starting right away on shitty teams. 

[kamac19]

50 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Accurate and fair review.   My question (and i'm too lazy to look it up myself) how does this for a 3rd start compare to say Mariotta or Winston from 2 years ago?  Guys who were starting right away on shitty teams. 

 

Here you go Mark O,

accuracy and Ints seem the big worry compared to the other two guys, and with those traits being his issues coming out of college, lets hope he can sort them out.

 

[CaineDeSoulis]

41 minutes ago, kamac19 said:

Here you go Mark O,

accuracy and Ints seem the big worry compared to the other two guys, and with those traits being his issues coming out of college, lets hope he can sort them out.

 

Well his QB rating average is 30 points lower and he has thrown more INT than them both put together at that point.

Not looking like a first round QB currently
 

[Tour2ma]

Good thing then that we didn't spend a 1st on him...

On Winston's start he had Doug Martin (1400+ yd) running and Mike Evans (1200+ yd) as his #1 (?) WR. Question mark because Vincent Jackson was also with the team Jameis' rookie year. TN won six games that year.

Mariota? Titans, who went 3-13 (3-9 before MM was hurt) were led by Antonio Andrews in rushing (500+) and in receiving by Delanie Walker, hybrid TE, with just shy of 1100 yd. Mariota was 2nd in rushing with 252 yd.

Mariota clearly rose above his circumstance, but not Winston.

[Mark O]

4 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Mariota? Titans, who went 3-13 (3-9 before MM was hurt) were led by Antonio Andrews in rushing (500+) and in receiving by Delanie Walker, hybrid TE, with just shy of 1100 yd. Mariota was 2nd in rushing with 252 yd.

Mariota clearly rose above his circumstance, but not Winston.

And Mariota was the #1 overall pick in the draft.    His numbers are good (better than Kizers) but he was also not setting the world on fire either.    I was at that game against the Browns and he looked extremely average against a pretty bad Browns team.

My point will remain that you have to be patient and can't make any definite decisions regarding his future (or lack of) as a starting QB in the NFL for at least a few weeks.

[Tour2ma]

Actually Winston was #1 overall... MM was all the way down at #2... it's hell getting old...

Also need to look at opponents:

• for the Titans it was: Bucs, Browns, Colts... we torched the kid pretty good... he torched the Colts the following week.
• for the Bucs it was: Tits, Saints, Texans

[Mark O]

15 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Actually Winston was #1 overall... MM was all the way down at #2... it's hell getting old...

Also need to look at opponents:

• for the Titans it was: Bucs, Browns, Colts... we torched the kid pretty good... he torched the Colts the following week.
• for the Bucs it was: Tits, Saints, Texans

First...second....whatever...   :-)  

And we did work him over pretty good.  It was the best the defense has looked in like 20 years in that game.

[Tour2ma]

4 minutes ago, Mark O said:

First...second....whatever... it takes...

FIFY...

[Ghoolie]

On 9/24/2017 at 11:42 PM, CaineDeSoulis said:

Of starting qbs Kiser leads the league in the following

Passes intercepted 7

Lowest qb rating 53

Lowest completion percentage 53

 

 

It's the offensive line. We need to spend more money on fatass offensive linemen.

[Tour2ma]

Holy crap....Joe saw what I saw. #BabySteps

Joe Thomas: DeShone Kizer 'had his best game' in loss to Colts

BEREA -- Joe Thomas continually insists he knows nothing about quarterback play.

But he does know about pass protection and play calls and he does watch film with the offense. So when Thomas offers the opinion that Cleveland Browns rookie quarterback DeShone Kizer showed positive strides in the loss to the Indianapolis Colts it's worth listening.

"I thought our quarterback had his best game last week," Thomas said Thursday.

Kizer went 22-for-47 for 242 yards, with two touchdowns and three interceptions. One of the interceptions came on a desperate heave on the game's final play, the other two were costly.

Thomas, though, saw growth.

"I saw the way that he was throwing in rhythm," Thomas said. "He was making quick, decisive decisions with the football. Wasn't taking as many sacks. And I think that's huge progress.

"You can see as the second half got on he was getting confidence in understanding the route concepts, understanding the coverages, knowing where the ball needs to go on time. To me it seemed like a really big step."

Kizer was sacked nine times the first two games. The Colts sacked him once.

"Well I know when the quarterback runs around and sacks himself that's a bad thing," Thomas said. "So when he doesn't do it that's improvement."

Thomas' feeling was shared within the team, which thought that Kizer showed good signs about where to go with the ball and in his reads.

The interceptions were not solely placed on him, but there were general concerns with accuracy -- as his 46.9 completion percentage showed.

The first interception came with 8:39 left in the third quarter and the Browns down 28-7. Kizer threw a pass based on coverage that Kasen Williams did not read the same way. Williams cut in, but Kizer read an inside safety and threw outside. The pass looked bad, but was more a result of the receiver and quarterback not reading the play the same way.

The second came with 22 seconds left in the quarter and the Browns still down by 21 points. Kizer threw a slant to Kenny Britt, and given where the safety was, he did not lead Britt into the coverage. Britt kept going and the pass was behind him. He reached back and got his hands on the ball, but was not able to pull it in and the ball tipped into the air to a Colts defender.

"I don't think it is poor decisions," coach Hue Jackson said. "When I look at it, I think he has to understand the situation and where the people are so the decision is not what it is. The ball is going to the right person. The ball is just not in the right spot more so than anything. It is not decision related. It is probably accuracy more, making sure that the ball goes at the right person at the right time."

One of the knocks on Kizer when he came out of Notre Dame was about accuracy. In the NFL, a throw being on the back shoulder as opposed to the front shoulder can make the difference between a completion or an interception, a first down or a punt. Kizer does not hide from it, saying "pinpoint accuracy" is vital.

"Accuracy is a combination of not only the mechanics of the quarterback and the footwork and those things, but it has a lot to do with timing," Kizer said. "It is going to be on us to make sure that we get back out there as soon as we possibly can to work on that timing and have the chemistry needed to make sure that when I do throw a ball early that it is exactly where he expects it to be so he can come down with the ball."

Elias reported this week that Kizer is one of only three quarterbacks in the last 25 seasons to have at least 10 sacks and at least seven interceptions in his first three starts. The others: Peter Tom Willis in 1993, and Alex Smith in 2005. Smith has had a good career. Kizer has not.

For Kizer, every game is a learning experience in some way, shape or form.

"You just have to continue to work on your craft. This is a game where you have to always be getting better because as soon as you are not upping your game, you are getting worse. It is my job to make sure that each day in practice that I am out there working my butt off to become a more accurate passer, work my butt off to run the ball a little better and have better timing with the guys who are out there with me."

http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/23451/joe-thomas-deshone-kizer-had-his-best-game-in-loss-to-colts

[hoorta]

Rewatched the game last night. Kizer has to learn how to throw it away when he's outside of the pocket.

[Tour2ma]

Interesting tweet... can't testify to the source, however... or what gap there is in "the top six."

Chris Towers‏Verified account @CTowersCBS

Carson Palmer, Tom Brady, and Deshone Kizer are top-3 in deep pass attempts. All three are also top-6 in deep passing accuracy.

[Mudfly]

20 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Interesting tweet... can't testify to the source, however... or what gap there is in "the top six."

Chris Towers‏Verified account @CTowersCBS

Carson Palmer, Tom Brady, and Deshone Kizer are top-3 in deep pass attempts. All three are also top-6 in deep passing accuracy.

Yeah...but what does this stat even mean?.....he is 6th in passes over 20 yds, but dead last in passes over 40......and he's ranked 34th in average per pass att at only 6 yds per......(Hogan is ranked 4th with a 10 yd plus avg, btw)

[Tour2ma]

lol... Well also saw where Kizer led the league in short passing... so consistent with your reported 34th ranking.

Meaning? I think that all adds up to... he throws a lot.

[Orion]

....been raining so I watched the Colts/Browns game.

IMO, Keizer didn't do too badly.   He's credited with 3 INT's...but really, 1 was a Hail-Mary at the end of the game and another was when the new receiver zigged inside what Keizer thought would be a zag outside.  - The INT to Britt was on Keizer because he threw it well behind him....but a GOOD receiver could've made a real nice catch there to save the day...obviously Britt is not a GOOD receiver.

Also, Al Saunders has to tweak his teaching technique.  Three offensive pass interference penalties in one game is pretty bizarre. 

And finally, the drops.  Yup, they didn't help Keizer at all.  Granted not all of them were drops in the classic sense that the receiver just plain stone handed the ball.  Some of 'em were caused by the defender doing a good job of tackling with his arms and hands in the right position to 'cause' a drop.  But there were plenty of drops.

I agree with Joe Thomas, Keizer played fairly well....especially for a 21 year old rookie.  -  I think he will struggle against the Bengals front 7 however.

[Tour2ma]

Benn posting some stats from https://www.playerprofiler.com lately and finally got curious about Kizer.

Couple interesting stats:

• +0.07 Supporting Cast Efficiency (#22); 88.9% Protection Rate (#18)
• 1 Money Throw (#23); 7 Interceptable Passes (#1); 15 Danger Plays (#1)
• 63.5 True Passer Rating (#36); 1.26 Receiver Target Separation (#25); 15 Dropped passes (#1)

Full stats and term definitions here: https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/deshone-kizer/

Looked at a few other QBs for comparison sake. Flacco was one interesting one.

[Mudfly]

Good stats there......He and his receiving corp create the perfect storm.....

#1 in drops.....#1 in interceptable passes....#1 in dangerous passes.....and #36 in passer rating(with only 32 teams).....

Last 2 games his completion percentage is in the 40's and has declined each game......gotta do much better than that to even sniff a win.....Time to stop the game to game decline and actually start improving.....

A good start would include some RB screens and play action(which means we run the run too).....Hue, can you do this?

[TexasAg1969]

24 minutes ago, Mudfly said:

A good start would include some RB screens and play action(which means we run the run too).....Hue, can you do this?

And here-in lies the problem with Mr. "Long passes downfield when you have no working running game" Jackson. Keep to this and Hogan will be in by 3rd Q.

[Mudfly]

1 minute ago, TexasAg1969 said:

And here-in lies the problem with Mr. "Long passes downfield when you have no working running game" Jackson. Keep to this and Hogan will be in by 3rd Q.

And I dont think Hue will make the adjustments needed.....based upon this discussion going way back to last season and Hues 2 seasons worth of insistence that "we will run the ball"...I expect more of the same pass happy long ball stuff.....stubbornly standing his ground...er air....

Hues Formula = fall behind and pass away.....(pun intended)

[Tour2ma]

I thought the support ranking of #22 was surprisingly high... especially in light of the drops.

Hope we see Kizer under Center early and often. Sets up your Rx...

[Mudfly]

He was not good....thats for sure....terrible accuracy(still)(again)....are there any NFL QB's that keep their job when they complete passes at a 45% clip???

Honestly is getting worse each week......he just isnt ready and hasnt developed the tools to overcome it.....

[Hempman]

Interesting how desperate Hue is. My guess Hogan goes next week.

[LBC mike]

Is there a free delivery beer membership?  Will need it for the next 3 months 

[nickers]

28 minutes ago, Mudfly said:

He was not good....thats for sure....terrible accuracy(still)(again)....are there any NFL QB's that keep their job when they complete passes at a 45% clip???

Honestly is getting worse each week......he just isnt ready and hasnt developed the tools to overcome it.....

He is not improving in any area.. He looks the same this week as he did the first week...