I Trust In Kizer

[The Gipper]

9 hours ago, Orion said:

No QB's call the plays.  The HC / OC call the plays.  The QB just repeats what he was told to the guys in the huddle.

Here's two things that I've noticed about you Poetic:

1) You are a passionate, loyal, diehard (not diehard, dieimpossible) Browns fan.  Through and through.

2) I can't think of any time that I've agreed with your point of view on a topic.  (but then again, that's what makes the world go 'round)

3. You are frequently a freeking idiot, however.

[RoyceRolls]

On 8/30/2017 at 10:16 AM, Tour2ma said:

lol... little chance of that... unless there's an unreleased SportsScience episode on the shelf somewhere... or a big, carnivorous flag laying in wait for him opening day...

Black Weeden doesn't get trapped under the flag, black Weeden kneels under the flag.

[Tour2ma]

Black Wheezy? The Jeffersons?

[Ghoolie]

On 8/28/2017 at 0:06 PM, Tour2ma said:

I get that... but we'll also be starting our #1's. Plus have to remember that half (I'm guestimating) of the 8 carries have been designed, read-option runs. I expect us to see 2-3 of the these per week.

It will be fun to watch. I would have started him from day 1.

[beyster]

So....

What did you guys think? 

[nickers]

21 minutes ago, beyster said:

So....

What did you guys think? 

I think its way too early to call him the guy...

[Tour2ma]

Yes... but also way too early to say he's not the guy.

[Westside Steve]

2 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Yes... but also way too early to say he's not the guy.

Not to be a dick but the odds are huge that he won't be just given the past decade or so. Some guys are negative about the quarterback with every single one to take a snap. So far the naysayers have been correct every time. Drawing to an inside straight is never a high success play but we can certainly still hope.

WSS

[D Bone]

2 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Not to be a dick but the odds are huge that he won't be just given the past decade or so

Well, I guess we're due then........... 

[Tour2ma]

41 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Not to be a dick but the odds are huge that he won't be just given the past decade or so. Some guys are negative about the quarterback with every single one to take a snap. So far the naysayers have been correct every time. Drawing to an inside straight is never a high success play but we can certainly still hope.

But those in the know know that a decade's worth of misses has no more impact on the next selection's odds of success than a coin flip history has on the odds of the next flip. And that's not even considering that this is a new FO. It's what the naysayers are ignorant of...

But then there's the matter of what he will or won't "be". Starter? Franchise? All-Pro? Elite?  Very different odds for very different levels...

 

I'm not prejudging this one. So at minimum IMO it's a closer call than was RG3 or JFF or Wheezy or many more now fading deep into obscurity. Rather this time I see hope and just want to look for signs of progress.

[wargograw]

8 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Not to be a dick but the odds are huge that he won't be just given the past decade or so. Some guys are negative about the quarterback with every single one to take a snap. So far the naysayers have been correct every time. Drawing to an inside straight is never a high success play but we can certainly still hope.

WSS

Except that their pessimism is a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

[Ghoolie]

2 hours ago, wargograw said:

Except that their pessimism is a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Kizer holds the ball too long. This is not something that can be improved upon. His synapses are what they are. His habits, his internal timer to get rid of the bal has long ago been emblazoned in his brain. 7 sacks is not just a rookie issue. It is the issue of a dimwit.

Quarterbacks who hold on to the ball too long don't even get a chance to learn otherwise, even if it could be corrected. QBs who are run first, like Kizer, all hold the ball too long. hey all get hit mercilessly, and viciously as a rule. Kizer's life line in the NFL is not long. Some QBs don't get hit that much in 8 games. Add to that, this kid will take off and run, given that he is not polished, tells you he is going to get blasted, and blasted hard.

Will the Ravens take him out? There is a good chance. Will it please me? Not from a standpoint of a nice kid getting hurt, no. But from the perspective of me again being right while you guys spend the entire season in misery, not able to come post on the board because once again, Ghoolie was right? Yep, you're damned right it will please me. But hey, don't blame me, I never wanted a black Tarkenton, nor a Cowboy wannabe with toothpick ankles.

[tiamat63]

9 minutes ago, Ghoolie said:

Kizer holds the ball too long. This is not something that can be improved upon. His synapses are what they are. His habits, his internal timer to get rid of the bal has long ago been emblazoned in his brain. 7 sacks is not just a rookie issue. It is the issue of a dimwit.

Quarterbacks who hold on to the ball too long don't even get a chance to learn otherwise, even if it could be corrected. QBs who are run first, like Kizer, all hold the ball too long. hey all get hit mercilessly, and viciously as a rule. Kizer's life line in the NFL is not long. Some QBs don't get hit that much in 8 games. Add to that, this kid will take off and run, given that he is not polished, tells you he is going to get blasted, and blasted hard.

Will the Ravens take him out? There is a good chance. Will it please me? Not from a standpoint of a nice kid getting hurt, no. But from the perspective of me again being right while you guys spend the entire season in misery, not able to come post on the board because once again, Ghoolie was right? Yep, you're damned right it will please me. But hey, don't blame me, I never wanted a black Tarkenton, nor a Cowboy wannabe with toothpick ankles.

 

Stopped after the first two sentences.

Jared Goff would like a word with you.  

[Kvoethe]

Steelers played almost all zone the whole game fwiw.

[Tour2ma]

11 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Jared Goff would like a word with you.  

How 'bout my guy? Just may have a chance...

[The Gipper]

13 hours ago, Ghoolie said:

Kizer holds the ball too long. This is not something that can be improved upon. His synapses are what they are. His habits, his internal timer to get rid of the bal has long ago been emblazoned in his brain. 7 sacks is not just a rookie issue. It is the issue of a dimwit.

 

Well then, lets just cut him now and put in Hogan or Kessler or go get some scrub off the street.. 

Of course, if you were right....then probably John Elway, Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, Ben R.  Eli Manning, Drew Brees....all these guys should have been cut since they all each held the ball too long in their rookie seasons.

[D Bone]

3 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Well then, lets just cut him now and put in Hogan

Oh man, you might as well of just said PoG out loud 3 straight times, cause he's a comin'..... 

[Tour2ma]

LOOK BEHIND YOU IN THE MIRROR!!!!

[The Gipper]

41 minutes ago, D Bone said:

Oh man, you might as well of just said PoG out loud 3 straight times, cause he's a comin'..... 

I wonder if PoG is really Beetlejuice.  The mods should program it so that Beetlejuice is his permanent avatar:

 

[jiggins7919]

I don't agree that a QB can't learn to get rid of the ball quicker.  He plays, he watches the film, he practices, and he tries to execute better the next time.  In fact, I think Kizer has what it takes to become a very good QB in this league.  There, I said it.  Let's go back and see how many times I've said that in our team's new history...oh yeah...never.  There was a time when I thought Manziel had a chance, but it all revolved him getting his shit together, and we all pretty much knew that wouldn't happen.  

Why would I happen to give Kizer such a glowing endorsement after one game?  And why would I do this right before I picked Kizer to struggle against the Ravens?  I'm glad you asked.  I see Kizer as our first legitimate QB in years because of his work ethic, his attitude, his ideal size, mobility, and of course his arm.  His intelligence and work ethic were obvious to anyone when he was the ONLY rookie QB to start the season.  Read that line again because it's noteworthy.  True, Deshaun Watson got playing time and will likely start this week, but he didn't start the season as QB #1.  Not Mahomes, not Trubisky, and not anyone except for our 2nd round pick, Kizer.  Everything I read and heard says just learning the freaking verbiage is a monumental challenge, and calling a play correctly in the huddle is a giant hurdle.  Kizer went on summer break, and reported to training camp with MUCH better knowledge of our playbook and language.  That's impressive to me.  

There's no denying Kizer's arm, and the ball "gets there" quickly.  It might not always get there ACCURATELY, but when he has a clean pocket and steps into the toss, he typically does well.  How about that 1st first down we got when he drilled the ball to Njoku?  THAT was accuracy and power.  You think Kessler made that pass last year?  That 4th quarter laser to Ricardo Louis?  I'll be the first one to admit Kizer isn't perfect, but I truly believe he's a fantastic candidate.  The difficult part is holding tight during the tough moments, and like I've said, one of those "moments" could come against a Ravens' defense who pitched a freaking shutout.  No kidding, I watched some of that game and at times it looked like they had 14 DB's back there waiting for the ball.  

This isn't to say Kizer can't learn from his mistakes and play better, hell, I WANT to be wrong.  I WANT the kid to come out and tear them a new butthole.  I just don't THINK it's going to happen.  I will say this:  If our Browns are going to keep it close and perhaps sneak out a win, Kizer will ABSOLUTELY have to nail the deep passes when they present themselves.  He can't push a guy towards the sideline (Kasen Williams still could've caught it, grrrr), can't rifle it over their head, and can't "miss" a guy who breaks free down the field.  If we get a shot, he has to hit it...pretty simple.  It's not "easy", but it is simple.  I'd also like to see Kizer hit a few more guys in stride so we can get more YAC.  Especially to Coleman.

I believe so much in Kizer that I think the biggest hurdle to his success is his physical health.  He can't learn and get better if he's injured, and THAT'S what worries me the most.  He didn't take too many bad hits, and some were illegal and flagged, but there were 2 or 3 hits he could've avoided entirely.  Something Peyton Manning said years ago comes to mind, and he said that he learned the most about playing QB when he was down 30 points in the 4th quarter.  In other words, even though his team was losing, he was still out there learning and getting better.  Kizer can't do that if he's on the bench, so it's imperative that he learns quickly how to care for his health.  

Like I've said before, and several of you guys didn't like it, we win this game if we have Myles Garrett, Crow finds just 3-4 holes, and our special teams doesn't shit that golden brick.  It's uncanny how Crow seems to run AWAY from the holes, and I really thought he made progress last year with this.  It's just one game, and he'll watch the tape and hopefully get on track, but he left some serious yards out there, and our running game didn't do a damn thing to help our young gun.  We don't need to talk about that blocked punt.  The first effing possession of the first effing game....shame on you assholes.  

But did Kizer panic?  Did he fall apart?  No, he kept it together, and with the help of a ton of penalties, tied the game up 7-7.  THAT'S what I'm looking for in a young QB.  I'm telingl ya, Kizer has the tools, and if he's healthy, he's going to be "our guy".  I know it.  Even if he struggles this week against the Ravens, hell, even if he struggles in SEVERAL games this season, I still think we're going to say at the end of the year, "Wow, we actually did it.  We actually have our QB."  

[The Gipper]

I don't agree that a QB can't learn to get rid of the ball quicker.

Of course they can.  Anyone who thinks they can't is.....again.... just a guy going full Retard. (and you know who we mean)

[tiamat63]

6 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

How 'bout my guy? Just may have a chance...

 

That boy good.      In all seriousness, a much better command of the offense and understanding his progression level.   Timing and accuracy as expected came with another year in said offense.       Both he and Wentz are looking like they're panning out.     Of course I related Goff more to Rodgers and Wentz more to Farve.   

[Hempman]

Wentz nickle and dimed down the field. He can't do it any other way. Panning out my ass. That post was awful.

[PoeticG]

I really don't know what you guys have against Hogan. The guy is as big as Kizer and he throws a better deep ball. He throws his receivers open and in stride. He also throws a catchable ball, I mean really, if all those undrafted/cut WRs he got to play with were able to make some amazing plays- just imagine what he could do with the starters. Hogan is also way ahead of Kizer at reading the defense, calling the plays in the huddle and going through his progressions. Dare I say he's probably faster on his feet as well. So, what's not to like. Kizer should be the number 2 and Hogan should be the starter. 

[D Bone]

^ Man he's scary! 

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Hempman said:

Wentz nickle and dimed down the field. He can't do it any other way. Panning out my ass. That post was awful.

 

I guess that 60 yard throw to Nelson didn't exist?          Philly's receivers are trash so his ability to buy time and extend the play was pretty great.  Only late game did the Eagles finally start some boot action and move the pocket.     Point is, aside from a tipped pass on what would likely have been a compeltion,  Carson moved his offense at times.    

The midwest Birds, like the Browns, have a solid Oline and a dearth of refined talent catching passes.   

 

Your rebuttal?

 

edit:  Nevermind,  you're the guy that said Brock was in full command of the Browns offense and that they were scared of winning 7 games with him.   I don't fucking bother with trolls.  

[jiggins7919]

While I respect your opinion about Hogan, I am going to have to respectfully disagree.  From what I've seen, Hogan doesn't have nearly the arm that Kizer does, and I don't have the examples of him "throwing open the receivers", so maybe you're right, but I haven't seen it.  I will say that I was pleasantly surprised by Hogan's play, and I do like the mobility aspect he provides.  I thought he showed some real moxie in that comeback win during preseason, and I no longer feel "terrified" if he should have to play.  

Kizer has what I've heard as "a plus arm", and I saw several throws on Sunday which reflected that term.  I've already pointed out that he missed several deep throws in other posts, but on his completions I believe it's evident the ball simply "gets there quicker".  That fraction of a second can mean the world when you consider an NFL receiver is "open" by such a small margin.  Something else to consider is the "ceiling effect", or how good a player can potentially be in their career.  Now there's obviously no real way to measure this, but in my mind, Kizer's ceiling is nearly limitless.  There's nothing he can't do, or learn to do.  He's got the big arm, the mobility, the work ethic, and if he had a true #1 receiver (or god forbid a RUNNING GAME), there's no telling how good he can be.  Hogan on the other hand, doesn't appear to have that same ceiling height, but again, that's just what I think.  

I desperately want to see Kizer play a full game with a working running game.  I think it'd open up the play action a bit more, and I think it'd put us in way more favorable down and distance.  I'm NOT calling a Njoku a bust, so don't take this the wrong way, but there was a large part of me that really wanted Dalvin Cook at the end of the first round.  While I do believe Njoku WILL be a fine player, the odds of him producing jack squat this year are very slim.  As I've said a billion times, rookie TE's simply don't produce right away...hardly ever.  Rookie RB's on the other hand...well...that's a different story.  

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

That boy good.      In all seriousness, a much better command of the offense and understanding his progression level.   Timing and accuracy as expected came with another year in said offense.       Both he and Wentz are looking like they're panning out.     Of course I related Goff more to Rodgers and Wentz more to Farve.   

In that case it's obvious why I was not a Wentz fan...

About Goff... I should have said "our boy".  I should be able to remember who was with me... there weren't that many. Just might be clicking for him in year 2... then again it was the Colts.

3 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

1. I don't agree that a QB can't learn to get rid of the ball quicker.  
2. His intelligence and work ethic were obvious to anyone when he was the ONLY rookie QB to start the season.
3. There's no denying Kizer's arm, and the ball "gets there" quickly.  It might not always get there ACCURATELY, but when he has a clean pocket and steps into the toss, he typically does well.  How about that 1st first down we got when he drilled the ball to Njoku?  THAT was accuracy and power.  You think Kessler made that pass last year?  That 4th quarter laser to Ricardo Louis? 
4. This isn't to say Kizer can't learn from his mistakes and play better, hell, I WANT to be wrong.
5. I believe so much in Kizer that I think the biggest hurdle to his success is his physical health.  He can't learn and get better if he's injured, and THAT'S what worries me the most.  He didn't take too many bad hits...
6. Like I've said before, and several of you guys didn't like it, we win this game if we have Myles Garrett, Crow finds just 3-4 holes, and our special teams doesn't shit that golden brick.
7. ... I still think we're going to say at the end of the year, "Wow, we actually did it.  We actually have our QB."  

1. Can? Yes... QBs learn and increase the rate at which they process info. But we have to see that Kizer has a way to go on that count. Same applies to throwaways. It's not like it's a separate skill. If you are in the pocket and have to find a safe, sellable throwaway, you have to find it the same way you have to find a 2nd (or 3rd) option to throw to. Hue needs to do the kid a favor.
2. Sure, but Mahomes never had a shot at displacing Smith and Trub's chances were slim. Watson? He had a shot, but, you know, he's getting O'brianed.
3. I urge you... Go back thru your notes and/or tape and check his accuracy on primary targets that he has stared down vs. 2ndarily acquired targets. I believe your Njoku example is one of the former.
4. You're not wrong. We are not talking about overnite improvement here.
5. I'm less worried. I think he took his test shot in that sandwich job on  the run vs NYG in Week 3 of the preseason. He said he wanted to get a taste of NFL power. He did. Pretty sure it was not to his liking.
6. Don't mind your argument... just don't buy it. Remember... PTG killed the last 2 minutes of the game on our side of the 50.
7. There's a chance... hope you are correct. We'll know a lot more by the time I'm pubcrawlin' with LondonBrown...

Good write up... you're on a roll.

[PoeticG]

Hogan stepped up and took over when Andrew Luck went to the NFL and they didn't miss a beat. I'd say that maybe Kizer has a stronger arm but Hogan is more accurate and more importantly- when he throws deep the ball is ON TIME. The ball arriving on time and catchable is the mark of a great deep ball. Hell if it was all about arm strength Jamarcus Russel would still have a job. But no, Kevin Hogan has a Sweet deep ball because he times it perfectly and makes it catchable for the receiver to make a play on it. 

 

[hoorta]

5 minutes ago, PoeticG said:

Hogan stepped up and took over when Andrew Luck went to the NFL and they didn't miss a beat. I'd say that maybe Kizer has a stronger arm but Hogan is more accurate and more importantly- when he throws deep the ball is ON TIME. The ball arriving on time and catchable is the mark of a great deep ball. Hell if it was all about arm strength Jamarcus Russel would still have a job. But no, Kevin Hogan has a Sweet deep ball because he times it perfectly and makes it catchable for the receiver to make a play on it. 

As someone else said- Kizer has a higher ceiling than Hogan. If Hue thought he'd win more games, Hogan would be starting, and Kizer sitting and learning. There's also this little factoid- we HAVE to see if Kizer shows enough to be the long term answer at QB, with the boatload of picks we have in 2018 in what looks to be a loaded QB class. We didn't invest that second round pick on him for nothing. Hogan was picked up off the waiver scrap heap. You may think so- but the Browns don't see Hogan as worth wasting a bunch of starts on, we don't have the luxury of developing two QBs simultaneously. Hogan is as much of a project as Kizer- fact, PG.  May view him as the long term answer as a quality backup should Deshone get hurt. And if Kizer does get dinged this year- you're going to get your wish to see Hogan's Heroes in action.